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If your only reason is other shit happens then thats not really a good thing is it...
Now we are leaving the EU maybe the UK can uphold it's own fine standards. Did you read the long and detailed post about why they need to wash their poultry at the end of a crappy process to make it fit for human consumption?
I thought Brexit meant taking back control and not being forced to accept whatever other people wanted.
incompetant at a staggering level
You say this, and it may be true, but if you can point to a UK government that wasn't I might consider it as a factor.
I can see no real reason the US chicken is banned other than protectionism.
Whta about all the reasons we've given you on this thread? You need to address them if you want to debate - you cannot simply ignore the points made.
France for final processing and tinned where they are labeled as "made in France". The EU can turn a very very blind eye when it chooses.
What have the French Government done to stop this?
Whta about all the reasons we've given you on this thread? You need to address them if you want to debate - you cannot simply ignore the points made.
Are you new around here?
Do keep up.....
Everything the nasty federal superstate EU does is evil and wrong and specifically aimed at damaging the plucky UK, without whom they'd all be speaking German anyway.
Murica on the other hand is a beacon of freedom and justice and has our bestest interests at heart with its eternal benevolence
Why is debating this even a thing? Regardless of if they have been lobbed in bleach or not why do we need american chickens? Why would we need to send refrigerated container ships across the atlantic when we can grow our own chickens closer to home? It's not like chicken farming is massively land intensive, especially not the way most of these poor beasts are reared. Just seems a waste from an environmental perspective to even consider it.
Why did the chicken cross the pond?
Can someone please explain where this notion has come from that once we leave the EU we will have poor animal welfare. We have had much higher standards than the majority of Europe before any EU legislation and what did come was usually already in place within the UK.
We currently in the [url= https://www.nfuonline.com/sectors/animal-health/animal-health-news/uk-leads-the-way-in-animal-welfare/ ]top four[/url] in the[url= http://api.worldanimalprotection.org/?_ga=2.238883776.1332564562.1501166352-1377971957.1501166352 ] animal welfare ranking[/url] alongside Austria, New Zealand and Switzerland as the only ones ranked as Grade A. The majority of the EU are Grade C. Maybe it's time the EU stepped up to the UK standards and people on here instead of just reading the EU propaganda actually looked at what we actually do ourselves above and beyond any EU legislation.
As the 2nd largest poultry producer in Europe behind Poland we should be looking at an opportunity to fill the market left by the Brazil meat scandal with high quality meat produced in a country that takes animal welfare seriously rather than merely giving it lip service.
Animal welfare costs money. Countries with poorer welfare can produce meat cheaper.Can someone please explain where this notion has come from that once we leave the EU we will have poor animal welfare
So we might still have farms with high standards, but less of them, as meat is sourced from elsewhere.
It will all come out in the (chlorine) wash, so will have to wait and see.
Can someone please explain where this notion has come from that once we leave the EU we will have poor animal welfare.
When we leave the EU we'll have to negotiate new individual trade agreements with a myriad of countries inc the states. The yanks will want to be able to sell us their shit as part of the deal. As a nation of one we'll be much easier to bend over and have to take whatever they fancy poking up us if we want to get a deal than we were were when we had our bezzie mates to hold hands with. Depending on which tory minister you interview and which day of the week it is we might be prepared to take the yanks' detoll dunked chicken to get a deal. Stuff we previously said we would not let pass our lips. If you cut a few corners and blitz the chickens at the end you can grow them 20% cheaper so our farmers might expect to do the same too keep in the game.
Have I missed anything?
Have I missed anything?
You missed the bit where the EU might not want to take any kind of chicken from the UK without it being inspected first.
Can someone please explain where this notion has come from that once we leave the EU we will have poor animal welfare
Farmers currently are not able to make up for poor practices by chlorine washing. When they have to compete with US garbage they will piss and moan about unfair playing fields until they are allowed to use the same methods.
Animal welfare costs money. Countries with poorer welfare can produce meat cheaper.
When we leave the EU we'll have to negotiate new individual trade agreements with a myriad of countries inc the states
Just like the shite the EU has been importing in from Brazil.
If we have managed to produce high quality meat before the EU and still exceed their legislation do you seriously think that will change. British farmers have been known for their high standards of animal husbandry for decades. When I worked for a pig breeder we had much higher standards for the animals than the EU and Danish Bacon marketing used to wind us up as they were nothing more than the equivalent of battery chickens.
If you seriously thought we will rush to the bottom in animal welfare standards once we are out of the EU why haven't we dropped our standards already to the rest of Europe so we can profit at the cost of animal suffering?
If you seriously thought we will rush to the bottom in animal welfare standards once we are out of the EU why haven't we dropped our standards already to the rest of Europe so we can profit at the cost of animal suffering?
Because we may have to end up competing with US produce?
Because we may have to end up competing with US produce?
Which is more expensive than Brazil and Asia but it doesn't stop us competing with them as the main supplier to the Europe behind Poland and UK.
I do think the "it's legal in the USA" should ever be used in a bedabte about food quality or safety.
Artificial colors, hormones and antibiotics use in meat, carrageenan, bromine, high fructose corn syrup , sodium benzoate, etc etc etc
The EU comparably has its sh*t together with food quality and safety.
[url= https://s1.postimg.org/rg1afp6i7/IMG_0793.jp g" target="_blank">
If we have managed to produce high quality meat before the EU and still exceed their legislation do you seriously think that will change.
Yes probably. The British consumer loves a "bargain", if new trade deals , free of pesky EU welfare standards, mean that UK supermarkets start stocking imported chicken/lamb/beef at half the price of UK farmed produce then what do you think will happen?
Hint: UK consumers know that those £1 tops from Primark/Matalan etc are made in sweatshops, but they are cheap so they still buy them.
Yes probably. The British consumer loves a "bargain", if new trade deals , free of pesky EU welfare standards, mean that UK supermarkets start stocking imported chicken/lamb/beef at half the price of UK farmed produce then what do you think will happen?Hint: UK consumers know that those £1 tops from Primark/Matalan etc are made in sweatshops, but they are cheap so they still buy them.
The exact same as now then when you get diseased meat from Brazil imported into Europe under EU legislation. No hints required!
From the posts on here most are concerned about what they put in their mouths but oblivious to if it's not farmed in the UK then it will be of a lesser standard of quality or welfare to the animal. Your frozen products are most likely from Asia or Brazil. Brazil has already been caught with selling diseased meat by their police. I wonder if Asia's police forces are as keen to investigate their meat producers and let's not forget where the recent outbreaks of avian influenza originated from due to high intensity and over crowded breeding. I very much doubt that either of these regions are any worse than the US for animal welfare but I bet they are less regulated due to high litigation in the USA.
No EU legislation protected you from the horse meat or tumbled chicken scandals.
If you're concerned buy British were the animals have good welfare, don't buy frozen. The choice is yours.
Tabloids getting the response they want from useless news that plants insecurities.
Chicken is chicken, I don't hear of people getting salmonella at all in the west.
UK has been a leader in responsible farming, 'tis the rest of Europe (especially the newer members) who have been trying to catch up. I don't see that changing.
France has been complaining about the Duck rearing and French producers the labelling (hence the programme) but the EU does nothing much like the Pork rearing issue which the UK has raised.
Just made chicken for dinner tonight, washed the chopping board and knife in the sink before it goes in the dishwasher. I imagine droplets went everywhere. Maybe I won't be posting for a while as I'll be struck down with something nasty 😉
I understand the animal husbandry / processing argument I don't think it follows that just because we might import US chicken our processes will change. foreign exchange rates move more than the price differentials due to US methods. We sell plenty of medium and premium priced chickens (not quite at the French Bresse level of £40 a bird) so its not all about the super budget end.
Chicken is chicken, I don't hear of people getting salmonella at all in the west.
https://www.food.gov.uk/news-updates/news/2014/6097/foodpoisoning
"Main findings
The study found that:
Salmonella is the pathogen that causes the most hospital admissions – about 2,500 each year.
Poultry meat was the food linked to the most cases of food poisoning, with an estimated 244,000 cases every year"
Point being, there aren't a huge number of cases but they are generally more serious.
The exact same as now then when you get diseased meat from Brazil imported into Europe under EU legislation.
As you pointed out yourself, that Brazilian thing was due to corruption, bribery and illegal practises. It ended in police raids and arrests being made.
I don't hear of people getting salmonella at all in the west.
Whit? It's pretty common. I had it when I was young (can't recommend it) and I know friends that have had it too.
I don't see that changing.
Of course you don't.
Just made chicken for dinner tonight, washed the chopping board and knife in the sink before it goes in the dishwasher. I imagine droplets went everywhere. Maybe I won't be posting for a while as I'll be struck down with something nasty
Assuming it actually happens, I'll remind you of this post in a couple of years when we've left the EU and you're complaining on the forum that you've shitting Bovril for the last two days.
As you pointed out yourself, that Brazilian thing was due to corruption, bribery and illegal practises. It ended in police raids and arrests being made.
How did your EU legislation protect you? Do you feel safe with that same legislation protecting you from imports of meat from Asia?
At least you know the meat coming from the USA is chlorine washed to kill off the problems caused by poor animal welfare. The stuff that is imported from elsewhere I guess you play Russian roulette because you put your trust in the EU without questioning.
[url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/leaked-footage-shows-raw-chickens-6117764 ]Enjoy your tumbled chicken[/url]
Your point is that EU legislation didn't prevent people committing crimes, but US meat, free from those regulations, [i]will[/i] be trustworthy because no one in America commits crime?
No, my point is that EU legislation doesn't mean that meat imported into Europe is from animals kept or slaughtered to those same standards only that they have paperwork stating that they are. They don't have the same level of inspection only an agreement that they would be. What you actually get is something that might be to the standard or something that you wouldn't feed to your dog never mind your kids but it carries the same paperwork.
The US meat we know has poor animal welfare that causes the bacteria. The chlorine wash is to treat this as bad is it is. The Brazil and Asia imports could well be the same or worse but without the chlorine wash and deemed to be safe as it is imported under EU legislation with the magical rubber stamp.
So regulation doesn't always protect us from people willing to ignore that regulation to make a quick buck? No way.
He has a point - we already are exposed to lower animal welfare standards e.g. Danish pork, and that has not resulted in lower standards being practised in the UK.
However, I doubt many farmers would welcome yet more competition from countries practising lower standards. If a significant part of their market share goes to American chicken, they will be hurt of course. So they will either go out of business or be forced to campaign for lower standards.
Which is exactly what Jambalaya is doing himself - he objects to having to compete with fund managers in other countries who have fewer regulations with which to comply.
We are already the 2nd largest poultry producer within the EU but with the highest welfare standards. Only the cheapest chicken products such as reformed chicken is imported. It's easy enough to check on the packaging. If our chicken becomes more expensive for the EU due to higher tariffs post Brexit that would leave more available for UK consumers and shorter supply lines would decrease prices. It's hardly likely that we are going to be swamped with US imported Domestos chicken.
Even if the UK farmers dropped their A graded welfare standards would it be less than the majority of the C graded EU farmers and very unlikely to drop to the levels of the US, Asia or Brazil.
No, my point is that EU legislation doesn't mean that meat imported into Europe is from animals kept or slaughtered to those same standards only that they have paperwork stating that they are
Indeed, it's difficult to legislate against criminals, corruption and fraud.
Do you believe that once we have left the EU and we are desperately seeking new trade deals that we will be in a position to enforce much tighter regulations on our trading partners?
Sorry, too lazy to read all through this thread, but I've just watched Food Inc. on Netflix, and read Fast Food Nation - Eric Schlosser.
Both somewhat scary tales of the way food is produced, and how consumers need to take a bit more responsibility for where and how their food is made.
If our chicken becomes more expensive for the EU due to higher tariffs post Brexit that would leave more available for UK consumers and shorter supply lines would decrease prices.
I don't think so.. if we export a lot of chicken that's a significant market for farmers. If that disappears due to tariffs then they'll end up out of business won't they?
No EU legislation protected you from the horse meat or tumbled chicken scandals.
I have no idea what "tumbled chicken" is, but the horsemeat thing was nothing to do with legislation, it was criminal acts prosecuted for fraud.
No I don't but I do believe that the people buy on what they prefer to eat. People will still buy chicken nuggets made from processed meat which tastes nothing like it names suggest because the quality was so low to begin with no EU or US stamp with change that. Others won't touch them.
Indeed, it's difficult to legislate against criminals, corruption and fraud.
It's difficult to legislate against companies and people who are not part of the EU but expect them to behave as if they were.
how consumers need to take a bit more responsibility for where and how their food is made.
At the risk of playing the Junkyard Card, I've been veggie since the early 90s. I'm quite confident that I'm eating ethically reared carrots.
It's difficult to legislate against companies and people who are not part of the EU but expect them to behave as if they were.
So think on, how's that going to change if we leave the EU? Is it going to get better or worse?
Cougar, tumbled chicken is where they put a water solution into the meat to plump it up, increase the weight and its value. Water on its own won't keep within the chicken so the water contains meat proteins which are from other sources including waste pork and beef. The Dutch were at the centre of the scandal when they were found to be injecting water into chicken until it was up to 55% water content. The EU took action against this but didn't ban it instead the meat had to be labelled with the water content usually around 15% now. If you check the packaging on Halal meat you will see it doesn't have a water content on them because of what the water contains to keep it in the meat.
The horse meat scandal was a criminal act but it was all done and moved all around Europe under EU legislation but despite all this and sheer number of countries and slaughterhouses within them it went undetected because it was within the EU so assumed to be safe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal
So think on, how's that going to change if we leave the EU? Is it going to get better or worse?
I wouldn't imagine it to change from imported sources but we can concentrate on our own produce and what we need to import can be done with more direct control that it can now with 27 other states all with their own interests which may benefit them more than us.
Apart from we have no vets to monitor abattoirs!
The EU took action against this but didn't ban it instead the meat had to be labelled with the water content usually around 15% now. If you check the packaging on Halal meat you will see it doesn't have a water content
Thanks for the info.
Sorry, I'm confused here. Halal meat sold in the EU surely has to abide by EU rulings? Does it not have a water content because there's no added water, is that what you're saying?
The horse meat scandal was a criminal act but it was all done and moved all around Europe under EU legislation
How would it not be? Should every transaction be subject to DNA testing?
It wasn't moved around "under EU legislation," rather it was moved around *despite* EU legislation. It was an illegal act so laws are an irrelevance, rather what's failed here is checking and enforcement.
So think on, how's that going to change if we leave the EU? Is it going to get better or worse?I wouldn't imagine it to change from imported sources but we can concentrate on our own produce and what we need to import can be done with more direct control that it can now with 27 other states all with their own interests which may benefit them more than us.
I don't think you've understood / read the question. I was responding to this:
It's difficult to legislate against companies and people who are not part of the EU but expect them to behave as if they were.
To wit: If it's difficult to legislate against non-EU entities, is that situation going to get better or worse if we leave the EU?
Halal meat isn't injected or tumbled to increase its water content as the water often contains pork proteins so that it retained in the meat, hence no label as no added water.
How would it not be? Should every transaction be subject to DNA testing?
Didn't the EU legislations already state that products must contain origin labels after mad cow disease.
TJ, very true we are heavily reliant on EU Vets. Don't confuse these with your Vets at your clinic or attending farms as most aren't qualified for this and most it's part of their training to become a qualified Vet working under anothers licence. I have no issue with EU workers just the false impression that EU legislation means that our food is safe when it is often stretched to it's limits within the EU and paid lip service to outside.
The concern about the US process seems rather tenuous to me, the use of chlorine washing [b]may[/b] increase the risk of poor practice and if the product is allowed into the UK that [b]may[/b] in turn lead to lower standards here in a [b]subset[/b] of producers. As argued above there are plenty of examples where bad practice already exists and little or nothing is done.
@molgrips my personal example is a bit different, local regulation put my business as at disadvantage to global competitors with respect to global clients. Even if I was offering a service to a global client I had to follow EU rules my competitors did not and had an advantage which had a binary impact, the money went elsewhere.
The concern about the US process seems rather tenuous to me
Obviously you see nothing bad in it, as a consequence of Brexit. What a surprise!!
Wellmits good you managed to start a topic and retain exactly the same view as when you started. Was it worth it?
British farmers have been known for their high standards of animal husbandry for decades.
This bit made me laugh - rightly or wrongly British farming is still associated with the mad cow scandal, hardly a great reputation to have.
rightly or wrongly British farming is still associated with the mad cow scandal, hardly a great reputation to have.
Having been involved off and on with the higher end of British agriculture its currently very good and has been for a long time, the repercussions of bse have lead to one of the best traceability systems going, real accountability and knowledge of exactly what has been given to all cattle, you could map its journey from birth to plate.
@mogrim have you heard of magnesium staggers ? The French diagnosed their cows with that not "mad cow".
Obviously you see nothing bad in it, as a consequence of Brexit. What a surprise!!
I said the link was tenuous not non-existant and by leaving the EU we can correct many of the animal husbandry and health issues that come with membership. As mentioned above the horsemeat scandal was facilitated by the EU. The UK Government will be free to import chlorine washed chicken if it chooses. If a subsequent government doesn't like that they can change it. Gove has indicated we would not accept it.
The UK Government will be free to import chlorine washed chicken if it chooses. If a subsequent government doesn't like that they can change it. Gove has indicated we would not accept it.
The UK will be bullied into it if they want a fast trade deal with the US, When the option is deal or bust what would they go for?
Given the scant regard for farmers in Brexit terms most people wouldn't trust this government (who can't agree with each other)
Want some hormone beef to go with it?
Having been involved off and on with the higher end of British agriculture its currently very good and has been for a long time, the repercussions of bse have lead to one of the best traceability systems going, real accountability and knowledge of exactly what has been given to all cattle, you could map its journey from birth to plate.
Definitely - I'm not saying it's fair, I'm just saying that British farming's [i]reputation[/i] isn't necessarily a good one.
@mogrim have you heard of magnesium staggers ? The French diagnosed their cows with that not "mad cow".
And Spanish cows had it too. Which has also led to tightening up regulations here. All of which is a good thing, and I'd hate to see them being relaxed by allowing imports from countries like the US with weaker standards.
For me this tweet summed it up nicely
[url= https://twitter.com/TechnicallyRon/status/889543123352899584 ]Chlorine chicken tweet. [/url]
😆
by leaving the EU we can correct many of the animal husbandry and health issues that come with membership
Of course. We could. We could also have more stringent environmental regulation. But we won't. We already have to be dragged kicking and screaming to implement the regulations that exist - there is zero chance that Brexit will lead to an improvement.
The UK Government will be free to import chlorine washed chicken if it chooses. If a subsequent government doesn't like that they can change it.
Obviously that won't happen if it's part of a comprehensive mini-TTIP.
In its simplest terms, if an increased market for Dettol-nuggets is created, then more chickens will live in inhumane conditions.
Of course. We could. We could also have more stringent environmental regulation.
But didn't we already have more stringent regulations for animal welfare anyway? Surely that means we had the ability to do more than the EU minimum anyway?
The concern about the US process seems rather tenuous to me, the use of chlorine washing may increase the risk of poor practice
No, chlorine washing is needed BECAUSE of widespread poor practice. It's a cheap fix to a problem.
by leaving the EU we can correct many of the animal husbandry and health issues that come with membership
Which issues are those? Can you name one?
But didn't we already have more stringent regulations for animal welfare anyway? Surely that means we had the ability to do more than the EU minimum anyway?
In some case yes - such as veal and pork. But a number of people making that argument are ignoring the areas in which we didn't, for example caged hens and fish quotas.