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Firstly I am bound to have eaten this either in US restaurants or purchased at supermarket and cooked when living there. I have also eaten plenty of US beef, hormones, anti-biotics and all. Would I generally chose to buy premium / organic meat, yes and so would probably not purchase any other than via restaurants / fast food outlets. I do love a KFC 🙂
Chlorine is is of course in many things, swimming pools to baby's sterilising tablets (which I use to clean omy camel back bladder for example). Concentration levels of course vary (lower than those above) and anything to do with food has a sensitivity.
The EU says its safe to eat Chlorinated chicken (linked report says no chlorine was detectable in cooked samples and says it's therefore safe). The issue seems to be about it's use causing laziness and lack of hygiene earlier in the slaughter / preparation process on the basis the chlorine wash will kill it.
Concentrations used are pretty small
We are taught to wash chicken before cooking anyway
European levels of Salmonella are 50% higher than in the US - so chlorine washing works ?
I'm not aware of any particular negative health issues in the US as a result, happy to see anything to the contrary.
Consumers would be able to decide whether to buy US sourced and thus chlorine washed chicken as it can be appropriately labelled.
So what's the fuss all about ?
European Food Safety Report
European Food Safety Report
🙄
European levels of Salmonella are 50% higher than in the US - so chlorine washing works ?
Other reports suggest that the US has 4 -5 times higher cases of Salmonella.
We are taught to wash chicken before cooking anyway
I thought we [b]weren't[/b] meant to wash it before cooking?
I imagine it will have even less flavour than the crap we are already supplied with. Doesn't chlorine kill anything it touches if the levels are high enough?
Chlorine is for swimming pools, not chicken.
I could Google a coherent argument, but what's the point.
But it's foreign, innit, and that can't be good.
We are taught to wash chicken before cooking anyway
Fail.
lol what? Might want to double check that!We are taught to wash chicken before cooking anyway
We are taught to wash chicken before cooking anyway
You need a new teacher.
I've now got this mental image of Jamba sitting in the bath washing his chicken.
We are taught to wash chicken before cooking anyway
In chlorine?
I've now got this mental image of Jamba sitting in the bath washing his chicken.
Please don't make a gif 😯
lol at Jambers trolling like a D grade Taylforth.
They mostly don't use chlorine these days, they use other stuff according to a chap on the wireless earlier
So what's the fuss all about ?
Tip of the iceberg innit.
US mass food production makes battery chicken farming look like Centerparcs. Thousands of cows stood shoulder to shoulder in a giant shed, never seeing grass. Not only is the meat less nutritious (Omega 3) but the use of insulin-like growth factor is potentially bad for humans, and the antibioics they use to make them grow bigger are a driver for antibiotic resistance. To think that we may re-introduce deadly but once-curable diseases just so that Americans can have slightly cheaper beef is pretty bloody desperate.
It's a lowering of standards, and it's depressing as hell.
Ah the delicious irony of Jamba using a EU safety report to try to support a the quality American chlorox chicken we can look forward to when we leave the EU market.
I could Google a coherent argument, but what's the point.
If they ever want to name this forum, you just nailed it.
Everything Jamba wrote.
WTF?
I bloody love chlorination chicken
Will I die ? 🙁
I always do my chicken on a quick wash (no spin) before frying in Milton.
Needs Jennifer Aniston doing a "Here Comes The Science Bit". Bless.
Have we done the eggs?
UK approach;
Not allowed to wash Class A eggs as making the shells wet can allow bacteria through the membrane and into the egg
The no wash rule also encourages clean cages/bedding
Shops do not refrigerate eggs, as condensation can form after purchase, making the egg wet and allowing bacteria in.
US approach;
Wash the dirty eggs in hot soapy water, (stripping away the protective membrane)
Spray the eggs in oil to try and create an artificial barrier to bacteria.
Refrigerate the eggs on sale (and at home) to keep bacteria levels down
The end result is the same, but the US (and Japs, Aussie's and Scandinavians) have a lot more work to do!
(but apparently the US don't vaccinate their eggs against salmonella, so there is an upside to all that refrigeration...)
I would encourage anyone who hasnt to visit a quality butcher and can some actual chicken not supermarket mush. Its a different product altogether quite nice to eat now and then.
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When we were in New York I had the most delicious strawberries we have ever eaten. So delicious I got to wondering what have they done to them.
They might have been untouched but I am still deeply suspicious.
European levels of Salmonella are 50% higher than in the US
I should fact check that (because y'know, at least one of us should) but I really can't be bothered. So instead I'll ask you:
How do either of those levels compare with [b]UK[/b] levels of salmonella?
(but apparently the US don't vaccinate their eggs against salmonella, so there is an upside to all that refrigeration...)
That's not a 'but,' that's the reason. UK hens (not eggs) are vaccinated so there's no reason to wash eggs and indeed good reason not to; US hens are not vaccinated which is why washing and refrigeration is required. In the UK the biggest salmonella risk to eggs comes from internally, in the UK it's externally.
Which is why I asked the previous question. I know little (ok, nothing) about eggs in the EU, but given that the UK vaccinates its hens the notion that salmonella levels in this country are higher than in the US flies in the face of logic.
I could Google a coherent argument, but what's the point.
If they ever want to name this forum, you just nailed it.
Nah. More like, "I could Google a coherent argument... and here it is!"
The good news is that swimming pools can now be treated with chicken
Nah. More like, "I could Google a coherent argument... and here it is!"
With no accreditation!
I thought that nearly all the fresh chicken sold in the UK was produced here. The frozen and reformed chicken mainy from South America and Asia. The frozen chicken has had a few scandals from the current Brazil one with rotten meat being put into the food supply and the Dutch tumbling were they would put other meat proteins from beef and pork waste into water so the chicken meat would hold the water in order to bulk it up before they froze it again. I think the later is still allowed under EU law but they have to publish the water content now with levels around 15% apposed to 55% 😯
This all makes the US Chlorine story a non event as I would imagine the food chain would go unchanged.
Not had chicken in curried mayonnaise and sultanas in ages!
Oh, hold on, this really wasn't bad predictive text? Chicken in chlorine? 😯
I bloody love chlorination chicken
🙂
Well so far I don't really see why not to eat it ? For me there are far more important animal husbandry and care issues than washing the chicken in a chlorine solution.
As I said I was always told to rinse off chicken, the NHS link speaks of the risk of spashing water everywhere which you don't do unless you are a numpty, no ? I mean I rinse it under the tap not jet wash the damn bird.
EFSA European Food Safety Authority. Given the EU is the one to have banned it quoting their research seemed reasonable @Drac
Anyway, its a genuine question. I am strugglong to see what the problem is really. Not for me and I would chose to pay more for an organic / accredited chicken but I don't see why consumers could not be given the choice. Cheap chickens are so fat laden as well as the water soaking issues me tioned above I think the chlorine wash is a sideshow.
EFSA European Food Safety Authority. Given the EU is the one to have banned it quoting their research seemed reasonable @Drac
You don't see the irony do you?
Anyway, its a genuine question. I am strugglong to see what the problem is really
The problem is you don't see there's evidence to say there are risks from eating it, one of them being the EU who suggest the risks hence the ban,
OK Donald I'll eat yer chlorinated chicken if you'll chlorinate Boris Johnson
I would chose to pay more for an organic / accredited chicken but I don't see why consumers could not be given the choice
That's not giving people choice, that's making poor people eat stuff that you admit you wouldn't eat yourself.
As I said I was always told to rinse off chicken,
Old advice. Those experts are always changing their minds.
I've now got this mental image of Jamba sitting in the bath washing his chicken.
That's a euphemism right?
I thinking jambawatsit may be a plant for the Russians or the Americans or someone. This has definitely got the wiff of a conspiracy.
I suggest we just eat stuff from decent local farms until it all comes out in the non chlorinated wash.
As I said I was always told to rinse off chicken, the NHS link speaks of the risk of spashing water everywhere which you don't do unless you are a numpty, no ? I mean I rinse it under the tap not jet wash the damn bird.
[url= https://www.food.gov.uk/news-updates/campaigns/campylobacter/fsw-2014 ]The Food Standards Agency also advise against washing chicken[/url].
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Just a few bacteria can spread Campylobacter, so no they are not talking about "splashing water everywhere" they are talking about a stray droplet, which is pretty much bound to happen no matter how careful you are.
They even did terrible Public Information film:
(which admittedly [i]does[/i] give the impression the guy is splashing water about like a numpty)
I suggest we just eat stuff from decent local farms
Which is where my butcher sources his supplies. Of course it's impossible to completely avoid the odd bit of mass produced meat I imagine, but it should be kept to an absolute minimum. Reduce meat consumption overall but buy good quality when you do eat it.
To answer you seriously, Andy, I must say: its actually a good question. I've eaten (presumably- I don't know for sure) chlorine-washed chicken in the US, as have you, and we're still here.
Technically, the meat will be "safe" to eat- and by that we mean free of pathogens, mainly campylobacter. Fair dos. But there's much more to it than just eating a piece of food that won't kill you.
So....and you'll probably have read this already I suspect, but anyway-
"For years, in the US, instead of preventing that chickens get infected with pathogens during all stages of rearing and slaughter, the poultry industry has resorted to chemicals to eliminate bacteria at the end of the meat production chain. In other words, chemical washes aim to make up for inadequate hygiene on farms and abattoirs.
In contrast, the EU has chosen another strategy to fight meat-borne bacteria. The philosophy of the ‘farm to fork’ approach is essentially based on the wise proverb prevention is better than cure.
The farm to fork approach requires a series of steps all along the production chain to ensure food sold to consumers ultimately is safe. In the case of poultry, hygiene stipulations at farm level include the use of dedicated clothing and footwear by farm workers to avoid bringing bacteria into poultry houses. This must be complemented with proper transportation conditions as well as hygienic slaughtering and processing practices.
EFSA, the European Food Safety Authority, recognises that ‘’(the) public health benefits of controlling [zoonotic pathogens] in primary broiler production are expected to be greater than control later in the chain as the bacteria may also spread from farms to humans by other pathways than broiler meat”.
Fighting bacteria at each step of animal farming is more efficient, as it prevents contamination in all forms of transmission. Take the example of the food-poisoning inducing bacteria campylobacter. Handling, preparation and consumption of chicken meat may only account for 20% to 30% of human cases of the disease caused by this pathogen. By contrast, 50% to 80% of cases may be attributed to the live chicken “reservoir”, even though the transmission pathways are not yet well understood.
This is why we believe the European approach to meat safety is more efficient in protecting public health.
What is more, as long as good hygienic practices are complied with and food safety management systems (HACCP) are well managed by food business operators – as required by EU law – there should be no need for additional treatments of meat.
Essentially, what we are concerned about is not just the chemical itself, but rather the risk that these treatments will be seen as the “easy fix” to clean up dirty meat. Let’s be clear – no chemical rinse will ever remove all bacteria from meat heavily contaminated as a result of poor hygiene.
It is also important to bear in mind the slaughterhouse workers among whom the risk of respiratory diseases after inhaling poultry chemicals could increase.
Then we have the risk related to the emission of chemicals into the environment via poultry plant’s effluence.
European countries have taken the lead in raising healthier poultry. Of course, there is room for improvement, as the fight against meat-borne illnesses is not won yet[1]. But the EU has chosen an approach which is scientifically sound, has proven its efficacy provided it is properly applied and – most importantly – achieves its goal without the use of chemicals. We should not and cannot sacrifice public health levels and consumer protections in exchange for negotiating advantages in TTIP.
At the end of the day, it’s also important to take into account what consumers want. Consumer research in European countries such as the UK[2], Finland[3] and Denmark[4] show the overwhelming majority of consumers have no appetite for chicken washed in chemicals.
We are told not to worry as the future TTIP deal will not make the slightest reference to chicken or chlorination. Of course it won’t. And it does not even have to. Just like lactic acid rinses on beef, poultry washes approval by the EU could just be one of these “confidence building” steps in a bid to secure a trade deal. And yet we will continue to hear it is totally unrelated to TTIP.
From a consumer point of view there is no added-value or justification to throwing our approach overboard and paving the way for chemically treated poultry to enter our market. I can imagine it is hard for trade negotiators (and some business lobbyists) to accept, but let’s just acknowledge that the EU and US see this issue differently. Transatlantic trade should not be a pretext for dismantling practices which fortify public safety in Europe."
http://www.beuc.eu/blog/what-is-wrong-with-chlorinated-chicken/
As well as that, there's the fact that animals produced for meat without the use of end-stage chemical washing are in fact better treated. I'll dig out the report I read recently on intensive chicken farming in the US and post it here.
BTW- do you listen to The Archers? Well worth a tune-in now if you want to catch up on the pros and cons of intensive vs non-intensive farming.
it's impossible to completely avoid the odd bit of mass produced meat
Dont eat meat ?
Dont eat meat ?
Now you're just being silly.
Please nobody mention Welsh lamb and semen.
....oh, and incidentally, if the recent deal with China is anything to go by, we could end up with Chinese-sourced meat instead of US. The US doesn't need Chinese chicken, but agreed to it to get American beef on Chinese tables.
If you're not worried about American chicken, you should be worried about Chinese. China has a long and storied history of a poisoned food chain. America would have to inspect every shipment to be sure, and thats never going to happen.
"...he questions the Chinese government's ability to enforce food-safety standards, given its poor track record.
That record includes rat meat being sold as lamb, oil recovered from drainage ditches in gutters being sold as cooking oil, and baby formula contaminated with melamine that sickened hundreds of thousands of babies and killed six. In 2014, a Shanghai food-processing factory that supplied international restaurant brands including McDonald's and KFC was caught selling stale meat, repackaged with new expiration dates."
@Graham thanks for that, so maybe I'll stop then.
@cody yes I had read that and I understand why the Europe and the UK don't want to take the US approach here but it seems to me the only reason for banning it being imported is economic protectionism (Drac see there is my point, the EFSA says its safe to eat but its banned anyway). No time for the Archers these days but I am a country boy at heart (used to do farm jobs when I was younger). China is a whole other ball game agreed
So far I see that the main reason for not eating it is it sounds bad, fair enough.
So you missed or ignored the whole bit about hygiene down the chain being better than hoping some bleach makes it safe for consumption?
@Graham thanks for that, so maybe I'll stop then.
Not that it would help anyway, as there is probably more chlorine in your domestic water than in the chicken 😉
However, in 2008, the Council of Europe rejected a European Commission proposal to allow the use of antimicrobial chicken rinses containing chlorine, which it said can, “lead to the formation of chloroorganic compounds, several of which are persistent, bioaccumulable or carcinogenic”. In other words the compounds can cause cancer, are hard to get rid of and have a tendency to build up over time when repeatedly absorbed by living in organisms.
I'll stick with the EU recommendations thanks.
It's just a step backwards, the need for chlorinated chicken is purely due to poorer standards.
If the chickens were raised and slaughtered in a better way there's no need to sanitize the finished product with a disinfectant.
I'd rather move forward than backwards.
I appreciate there is a certain irony, being a meat eater, but i don't see why standards should be lowered, raising standards should be the only option, if not for safety, then for livestock welfare.
What Drac said.
It's now proven that processed meats are carcinogenic. So mince, sausage, your finest iberico ham and turkey twizzlers etc. We're not sure why.
Could it be because the meat comes into contact with disinfectants during processing? It's definitely one likely hypothesis.
Shove your chlorinated chicken. I'm not going to wait for the government to work out in 2047 that it was a really bad idea. See BSE, asbestos, thalidomide, horse meat, smoking circa 1950 etc for where this is likely to head. Our children will laugh at us for some of the stuff we produced and ate.
Jam, if we can import meat produced to lower standards this will undercut the UK produced stuff. Our farmers won't be able to compete unless we lower our own standards.
I try to buy local and organic where possible; the fact that this has been introduced by politicos so early speaks volumes about what the cousins want - access to a new market for poultry products which will drive down uk standards.
I will definitely have eaten it in the states but, given a choice, not for me - thanks.
As many earlier posts have stated, it's a lower quality product and will undercut uk producers.
After chicken, what 'adulterated' food will come next?
I have just dry fried some locally produced beef fillets - no noxious/toxic emissions from the meat; long may it continue.
US restaurants - upto and including fine dining - focus on 'the experience' aka I need you to tip extravagantly; which is a distraction from the average quality of the food being served.
The only significant exceptions to this can be grouped under '....ethnic, back street, look dodgy but worth investigating'.
I'm sure Don will now sweat this for everything he can - supporting US farmers blah bah.......
My advice - read the label; check country of origin; be very careful about what you ingest.
Interesting to note that Liam Fox & Michael Gove have diametrically opposed views............
Steroid/Growth Hormone injected beef main course to follow your chlorinated chicken starter?
Junkyard - lazarus
it's impossible to completely avoid the odd bit of mass produced meatDont eat meat ?
POSTED 7 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
Yup; I was reading this thread and the steps they go to stop people shitting themselves to death on dodgy chicken and feeling quite pleased this has little or no impact on me.
Consumer choice? Not really -
Derivatives of GM maize and soya are in thousands of processed foods in the US. American consumers’ demands to see them labelled have been quashed by lobbying from big biotech companies, notably Monsanto. In the US, the only way to avoid eating GM ingredients is to buy organic food to cook at home and never eat out.
If the UK were obliged to accept chlorine chicken and acid-washed meat from the US, this would not need to be flagged up on product packaging because these washes and sprays would count as “processing aids”, which don’t need to be labelled.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jan/29/britain-us-trade-deal-gm-food-eu-rules
If they let chlorinated chicken in, I still have the option to avoid it and buy something that I consider to be better.
Just the same was I opt not to buy crap parts for my bike
If they let chlorinated chicken in, I still have the option to avoid it and buy something that I consider to be better.
How would you know if it was being served to you?
It's still not a good reason to allow something like that in. It's bad practice and a lower standard than anything from the UK. It puts downward pressure on price and UK standards.
If they let chlorinated chicken in, I still have the option to avoid it and buy something that I consider to be better.
As per the article I posted - it wouldn't be labelled so you wouldn't be able to make an informed choice.
DrJ well the labelling legislation could be easily changed, would they not already label the meat as "source US" ? That would seem enough to let people decide.
Drac so I get that point about carcinogens but we are not banning ham, sausages or bacon are we ? Also its aell known 6 Eastern European EU members fail to meet EU regulations for Pork prodiction but they are still allowed to sell it anonymously within the EU (note was previously sold cheap to Russia with EU turning a blind eye but they are sanctions now)
Molgrips this is my view, its protectionism. I would much rather see animal husbandry legislation lead to the end of £3 supermarket chickens than ban chlorine washing
but have you read the rest of the long explanation as to how it's masking very bad practices to rearing and handling animals and being used to clean up all of the serious mistakes in the chain before packing.
How would you make something that has cut massive corners compared to UK standards compare? Would it not have a seriously adverse impact on the UK chicken farming industry?
You would not have any obligation to name a source in any kind of served chicken dish would you?
DrJ well the labelling legislation could be easily changed,
No it couldn't. How long have processed food producers and supermarkets resisted having to label sugar, fat, etc contents on food labels. And they still can't agree on a standardi. So, no, and you probably know this already, labelling legislation won't be [i]easily[/i] changes at all.
and what this really shows is that when you are the junior partner in a negotiation you have to beg for the scraps at the table if you want a deal. Amazing isn't it.
Agroculture is such an important industry for a nation, with climate pressures and uncertainty maintaining good quality food supply is imperitive. Accepting crap that will pressure local markets that operate to a much higher standard and undercut and undermine pricing and business models is a stupid idea. Agricuture needs protecting.
Can someone explain to me, if chicken is so full of deadly stuff, and has to be cooked to within an inch of its life so that you dont die from eating it, why is it then ok to wash your hands/knifes/chopping boards in warm water and fairy liquid?
Serious question.
Up until the beginning of this year the majority of the chicken imported into the EU was from Brazil. The Brazilian meat scandal makes chlorine washed chicken insignificant. The EU legislation did nothing to prevent this or to enforce it's own standards with regards to meat imports. Only after a Brazilian police probe into their largest meat producers, probably after a tip off when someone didn't get a big enough bribe, only then was action taken. The EU legislation protected no one just like it didn't with the horse meat and tumbled chicken scandals.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-22/brazil-tainted-meat-scandal-leaves-the-world-hungry-for-chicken
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brazil-spoiled-rotten-meat-bribery-scandal-economic-recover-2017-3?r=US&IR=T
If they let chlorinated chicken in, I still have the option to avoid it and buy something that I consider to better
Phew! It'll just be poor people that have to buy it. That's a relief.
(Assuming you never eat chicken in restaurants or buy chicken sandwiches or nuggets or pies...)
I would much rather see animal husbandry legislation lead to the end of £3 supermarket chickens than ban chlorine washing
I'd like to see improvements in animal welfare too, but to do that you really need to be part of a large trade block with agreed animal welfare standards (something like the EU for example) otherwise your own farmers following high standards are undercut by cheaper low welfare standard produce.
FFS you drink dilute chlorine every time you drink tap water. And they aren't even using chlorine any more, they use peracetic acid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peracetic_acid
Yes we do but you've missed the point.
It used to be common practice to wash poultry, and some shellfish, in chlorinated water in the UK so anyone who has eaten poultry pre-2005 will already have eaten chlorinated chicken.
It was more about maintaining shelf life by preventing spoilage than consumer safety. I can remember being at a turkey processors where they used to use 100ppm chlorine at the start of December, to make sure they lasted to Christmas, and reducing the concentration through the month to the normal 50ppm.
You're probably eating a hell of a lot worse on a night out.
I've witnessed personally.. condemned meat, unfit for human consumption sold to the local curry houses.. ducks caught by the local junkies (even dead rotting ones) sold to the Chinese takeaway next door to me.
I wouldnt worry too much about a bit of chlorine.
I wouldnt worry too much about a bit of chlorine.
Try reading the thread, the chlorine is used to clean up all the crap accumulated during the process from hatching to packing.
That is the major issue.
I'm not convinced you're describing a typical takeaway, I'm also curious how you have all this evidence but let the place stay open.
Molgrips this is my view, its protectionism.
It's about protecting standads.
And in any case - protectionism has a role, especially in food, where you need to protect strategic industries.
And animal welfare standards are also "protectionism" since they aim to prevent cheaper poor-welfare imports entering the market.
I'm not convinced you're describing a typical takeaway, I'm also curious how you have all this evidence but let the place stay open.
Thought I made myself pretty clear but...
A good friend who supplied them the meat did 7 years in prison for it.. He was supplying a LOT of Indian restaurants. His crime was big news at the time.. The authorities didnt seem interested in the restaurants who were selling it on, just the big guys shifting the large quantities.
The Chinese takeaway was next door to me and I would see it. They would even buy dead ducklings.
A lot of people here seem to have missed the point, even though it has been explained several times. The chances of Joe Public understanding that a "Made in the USA" label means "from unsanitary chickens in humanely raises and washes in chlorine " would appear slim.
Dont eat meat ?
But we are discussing eating meat.
It's just a step backwards, the need for chlorinated chicken is purely due to poorer standards.
My main issue would be it's likely to be crap quality meat. I'm pretty sure the free range ones I but aren't chlorinated now and won't be in the future.
Please nobody mention Welsh lamb and semen.
Just leave the rectum on the side of your plate.
Let Alan explain....
Some very interesting posts and in particular the Brazilian chicken story which I wasn't aware of. My views on the EU are well known here, incompetant at a staggering level. I can see no real reason the US chicken is banned other than protectionism. There was a programme on French TV about appalling standards of animal welfare raising ducks in Eastern Europe which are slaughtered then shipped to France for final processing and tinned where they are labeled as "made in France". The EU can turn a very very blind eye when it chooses.