[Closed] Chiropractitioners - do they work

Some people swear by them.
Some people swear at them after they've emptied your wallet of the thick end of £400, twisted your body till it clicks a bit and tickled you a bit with an odd looking power tool

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10 sessions - no discernable improvement. Approached with an open mind, retreated with neck pain and empty pockets. Obviously YMMV.

I've used one for an upper back issue and found it well worth it. It wasn't a magical cure but gave me some immediate pain relief + exercises to do and advice on posture. I'm lazy by nature so after a couple of weeks stop doing the exercises and the issue returns (only about once a year though otherwise I'd probably be a bit more motivated to do them). My experience was very little clicking and cracking, more massage and manipulation (body not mind :p ) along with useful advice and the last time I went I was told it's only worth coming back in if it flares up badly again so no attempt to drain my wallet.

Go and see a proper physiotherapist and leave the woo-woo to those with more money than sense.

I think a "Chiro what sit" has helped me in the past

But I'd start with a physio next time

ok, my opinion, for what it is worth.

Chiropracters are good, in that you get immediate relief (usually) and then some ongoing treatment.
Physio is good in that it teaches you to manage your body to prevent symptoms coming back.
massage is good in that it helps to heal the damage to muscles etc.

I like the idea of chiropractic in combining all three, and when I've been to the chiropractor I've been satisfied, but as above, the further on the "course" you get, the less you seem to get for your money. There's also all the hippy nonsense underlining it all...

The key word in the first sentence of the wikipedia page is "alternative medicine". The roots are nonsense, go to a proper doctor and get referred to a proper physio who doesn't prattle on how twisting your back will cure your asthma and won't accidentally make your condition worse.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/apr/19/controversiesinscience-health is a good starting point, and if you fancy a read the saga of the libel case that article provoked is quite an epic.

Used Chiro/osteopaths (not sure which) years ago on two separate occasions for nagging lower back pain. They both did some manipulation,gave me some exercises/advice, one visit = improvement, result.
Used another recently who had fancy electric massage tools, wanted a six visit consultation at £45 a shot which I went along with, gave me exercises etc. = no improvement. It could have been different injuries, but I was left with a nagging feeling that this last one didn't really know what they were doing, except for paying for the equipment.

Physio sounds like the way to go then - I would like to be able to tie my own shoe-laces again.

chiropractic = woo
physio = medicine

> Chiropractitioners - do they work

No, bunch of charlatans (and I don't mean the Manc indie band). Likewise osteopaths.

Get a proper diagnosis from a genuine medical professional with real qualifications, then get referred for the appropriate treatment, in that order. Don't try to self-diagnose back problems.

chiropractors seem to want to trap you into a course of treatment with short sessions when I question how much good they can do anyway. At the local chiro the sessions are only 20 minutes for example.

I think that osteopaths are much better, and I also prefer the slightly more indirect and safer feeling manipulations they do.

IMO manipulation does work - things get locked out of place due to bad posture, etc, and can do with help to be put back into the right place.

Trouble is that your muscles are often tight as well, maybe trying to protect you from your bad posture, and that causes a lot of the pain. So the best manipulations involve a load of massage to loosen you up first and stop the tight muscles 'pulling' you back.

Some physios can do manipulation as well but osteos have more training. I think it is part of the more advanced physio levels - if it was guff why would they teach it?

I have been getting some lower back pain and I bought this in the Amazon black friday deals :

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http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001V5INF2?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00

it is based on the McKenzie idea of keeping your lumbar curve.

It was painful to get on to start with but that was because of very tight muscles. Once I learnt to relax into it the pain started to go, and 3 or 4 5 minute sessions got rid of the pain.

It has saved me from a trip to the osteo - based on the pain being in the lower back and previous experience I reckon at least 2 visits worth - so £20 instead of £180 (at london prices...)

I have an 'ultimate back stretcher' for my upper back and that also works well and has saved me loads of money :

[img] [/img]

And if you go to a physio make sure you get a good recommendation as there seem to be a lot of lacklustre ones about - check previous threads on STW for example.

The key word in the first sentence of the wikipedia page is "alternative medicine". The roots are nonsense, go to a proper doctor and get referred to a proper physio who doesn't prattle on how twisting your back will cure your asthma and won't accidentally make your condition worse.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/apr/19/controversiesinscience-health is a good starting point, and if you fancy a read the saga of the libel case that article provoked is quite an epic.

Interesting that the article you link to doesn't really talk much about evidence

This does discuss evidence

The key word in the first sentence of the wikipedia page is "alternative medicine". The roots are nonsense, go to a proper doctor and get referred to a proper physio who doesn't prattle on how twisting your back will cure your asthma and won't accidentally make your condition worse.

The key word in the first sentence of the wikipedia page is "alternative medicine". The roots are nonsense, go to a proper doctor and get referred to a proper physio who doesn't prattle on how twisting your back will cure your asthma and won't accidentally make your condition worse.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chiropractic/pages/evidence.aspx

I'd go to a Physio

That nhs page says "There is good evidence available that chiropractic is an effective treatment for persistent lower back pain."

I think chiros are charlatans but I do not think the same of osteopaths.

And when people talk of trials evidence how on earth you you subject the 'placebo' group of the trial population to fake manipulations - you basically can't.

I think if you want to be told one leg is shorter than the other and have your back manipulated Cyro's are fine, but as most decent physios will now do manipulation I would go to someone who has some scientifically backed training

Bad back is usually a combination of posture and bad core in my experience

i have suffered from lower back pain since my late teens (im 45 now) and over the years have tried everything include chiro, oesteo, acupuncture, physio and more.

i have no axe to grind with any of them but i ended up using my local oesteo as a once a month type deal to manage it - immediate relief but it always seems to come back - i would go maybe once every 4 to 6 weeks.

then i tried the local physio which happened to be at the end of my road and genuinely this is the first treatment i have had which appears to have lasting effects. i went last week and the time before was september. i highly recommend finding a local physio and giving it a go. being fit also helps a lot ime. (im not currently 🙁 )

TLDR: go to a physio and not a chiropractor, osteopath, naprapath or whatever. Go to a physio. I would personally recommend getting "dry needled". Basically inserting needles into your spasmed muscles (if that's what you have) which will then release the spasm, and the muscles return to normal.

I have a leg that is 1cm shorter than the other. This caused all sorts of back problems over the years (it causes my left shoulder to pop up), my spine being bent sideways ever so slightly, weakened buttochs and all sorts of posture issues (and constantly engaged trapezius muscles)

Acute issues before Christmas when I couldn't properly walk. Do not try and stretch your back yourself, you might be doing more worse than good.

Go to a physio, now. Get needled. 🙂

I've used them in the past; thing to bear in mind is Chiropractors are like GPs you get good ones and bad ones, so be picky.

Main difference between Chiros and Osteopath is apparently Chiropractors can take and read X-rays (one's I've been too however use a consultant radiologist to read the xrays as its quicker).

When I really ****ed my back and saw a consultant, he told me that he was the last person I wanted to see; and gave me a Chiropractors number and told me that's what he would do if he was in my shoes, and if that didn't work come back. (it did, and I didn't)

As far as not qualified, it takes 5 years to qualify as a Chiropractor, including time at medical school and doing human dissection, so its not like its a weekend course or isn't in depth

but as most decent physios will now do manipulation I would go to someone who has some scientifically backed training

an osteo spends 4 years learning how to manipulate, how long does a physio spend learning manipulation - a lot less.

I wasted months seeing a shoulder specialist physio for a rotator cuff injury - whereas the osteo I went to helped me a lot until I finally fixed it swimming in the maldives.

blanket recommendations for physios and osteopaths are no good, you need to find a particular practitioner that is recommended personally as being good.

Physio's are fantastic if you find a good one they''' pin point your issue and give you advice.

Chiropractors are a joke.

Physio, everytime, however go on a recommendation from other people as some (as with all things) are a bit shite.

Physio's are fantastic if you find a good one they''' pin point your issue and give you advice.

Chiropractors are a joke.

This, times a gazillion. I know we have this debate on here often enough, and I am glad to see this thread coming down largely on the side of physios, but the latter really are proper medical professionals. Chiropractors on the other hand are like 'blood analysts' and other alternative therapists.

Probably like most on here, I speak from experience.

My wife is a spinal surgeon. She never refers patients to a chiropractor., Always a physio.

looks like it's a subjective thing like most stuff. my chiropracter is fantastic . doesn't hassle you for more sessions and in fact didn't charge me one time when he couldn't get a joint moving sufficiently . He sorted a nagging back problem that had plauged me for years .Top bloke and really down to earth /honest
if anyones interested and near exeter ......cathedral chiropractic .really annoys me when people say it doesn't work etc etc. I've benefitted massively .
saying chiros are a joke just demonstrates ignorance i'm afraid.

Just had 5 sessions of Physio for a shoulder which he narrowed down to joint problems in my neck. I can prevent or ease it myself with posture and exercises he taught me, didn't even need to go to the Maldives for the exercise. 😉

Chiropractors are a joke.

How many Chiropractors does it take to change a lightbulb?

One - but it needs 47 visits to make sure that the small adjustments are producing the correct alignment

Yeah, I'm not so sure it is all that subjective, kaiser, when you consider what imnotverygood said, above.

I am sure there are decent human beings who get into chiropractic practice because they believe in it, and then, where chiropractic work brushes up against medical reality, they seize upon it and do right by their clients.

Ergo: I think a person can get lucky with a chiro, but not because of the objective value of the profession. Whereas one can be unlucky with a physio, but that would be [i]in spite[/i] of the objective value of the profession.

"Go and see a proper physiotherapist and leave the woo-woo to those with more money than sense."

This .

Just had 5 sessions of Physio for a shoulder which he narrowed down to joint problems in my neck. I can prevent or ease it myself with posture and exercises he taught me, didn't even need to go to the Maldives for the exercise.

well that's great, but I was getting nowhere with the physio I was going to (listed as a shoulder specialist by Bupa) nor the regular gym sessions to do specific exercises for my shoulder (the pt at the gym had some sort of sports degree in kinetics) , nor with the exercise gear I lugged out to the Maldives with me.

Maldives trips should be on the NHS just for the swimming benefits.

Q. How many physios have you seen trying to drum up business outside a shopping centre / supermarket etc?

That tells you all you need to know, as per the numerous comments above.

Depending on your ailment, a physio may refer you to an osteopath. So physios and osteopaths good, chiropractors woo.

Like I say a good one is great.

My Physio is done through work so not sure I'll get to the Maldives, worth a shot though.

Go and see a proper physiotherapist and leave the woo-woo to those with more money than sense.

And possibly get fleeced by somebody with a medically accepted qualification.

I had a local masseur (stop s****ing) recommended to me for a long standing ankle problem. I visited on that recommendation and found out that the person in question was a "qualified" chiropractor.
She was also very sports focused (she is a runner and cyclist) and she helped resolve (almost as it is pretty long standing and I am very old!) the problem, and I was able to return to running.

The difference between her and the highly qualified physiotherapists I had seen was that she was "interested" in my sports injury and worked very hard to get it resolved.

The fact that somebody is highly qualified doesn't mean they will get to the bottom of it if they are disinterested and the fact that somebody has "questionable" qualifications doesnt mean that they cant offer valuable advice/treatment?

blanket recommendations for physios and osteopaths are no good, you need to find a particular practitioner that is recommended personally as being good.

I have had good results with a Chiro as have family members.

A very good friend is an Osteopath, he has also had good results with me and friends.

The Chiro is very immediate relief.

The fact that somebody is highly qualified doesn't mean they will get to the bottom of it if they are disinterested and the fact that somebody has "questionable" qualifications doesnt mean that they cant offer valuable advice/treatment?

And possibly get fleeced by somebody with a medically accepted qualification.

Well, you could try the nhs first, albeit the waiting time could be long.

To be fair, you will find all different levels of skill, experience and interest from physios, just like all medical practitioners. One might get your ailment straightaway or it may take some investigation and troubleshooting to diagnose, and work and effort from the patient to rehab themselves. Some issues can never be fixed, so becomes pain management or what aids life quality the most.

My mum has had good and bad experiences with physios, but none of them suggested she could be treated in *just another x number" of sessions that the chiropractor she attended did.

Seeing a physio this afternoon (his cv is pretty impressive as is his rate).

Shame you're the other side of the Downs or I'd pass on the number of the lady who I see.

saying chiros are a joke just demonstrates ignorance i'm afraid.

The problem is that straight Chiropractic [i]is [/i] a joke. It's entirely based in pseudo-science, and dates back to the days of Vitalism and other assorted nonsense.

On the other hand, Modern Chiropractic (depending on the practitioner) often mixes traditional woo with other disciplines and treatments, which may well be effective. But then that's a nice cup of tea and a back rub or a spot of Sports Physio disguised as Chiropractic, and if I needed Physio I'd go to a qualified Physiotherapist.

No they aren't.
They will twist you around everywhere without any evidence of what is wrong.
Go get a MRI done and see medical staff, not a quack.

Seeing a physio this afternoon (his cv is pretty impressive as is his rate).

the osteo I see is £90 for an hour which involve a pretty strong massage before any final manipulation - it is pretty much worth it just for that.

the other one close to work I have seen is £110. He's 56 and has master country and national track running titles, so knows a fair bit about injuries in that sphere.

that's both London/City rates.

By contrast the local (Woking) chiro is £36 for 15 minutes, so their rate is a lot more and all 3 at the practice are a lot less effective - no massage, one uses that stupid pen thing so not even a manipulation, and two use that tens-like machine at the end. One of them at least if fully booked nearly every day.

My wife gets free treatment there as she works on the reception, but she pays to see the £90 an hour guy I go to, plus traveling. Although that isn't so bad when you only go every couple of years, and only then because you have been lax with your posture or exercise or do something repetitively that injures you.

just stumbled across this :

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-gimmickry/

I think if you want to be told one leg is shorter than the other and have your back manipulated Chiro's are fine, but as most decent physios will now do manipulation I would go to someone who has some scientifically backed training

This.

The roots and underlying philosophy are hilarious.
There are obviously really good people who fix people quickly but it is amazing how many people I see who have been told that one leg is longer and then seem to need long-term 2 weekly sessions.

But Physios, MRIs, Back Surgeons etc often don't fix things either.

But Physios, MRIs, Back Surgeons etc often don't fix things either.

This. Sometimes mechanical back pain does not respond to treatment. But it is a good idea to give yourself the best chance possible by seeing someone who at least has a rational understanding of what the problem might be.

Go get a MRI done and see medical staff, not a quack.

but half the time there is nothing properly wrong, it is just bad posture or repeated movement over a period of time that leads to 'muscle imbalance' - which I suppose just means that the muscles are tighter on one side or spasm-ed up.

When my upper back becomes bad it is pretty evident that the muscles all down one side of my spine are a lot tighter/harder than the other side. A manipulation/massage can even that out, as can that back rest, which reduces or eliminates the pain.

Same with that lower back issue I had, lying on that other back rest is painful to start with, but once I have relaxed into it it isn't, and then after a few days of doing it my back is much less tight, and then I get less pain.

So much back pain appears to just be down to muscles - my wife was getting blinding headaches - turned out to be a pretty inaccessible muscle in her neck - after several bashes the headaches stopped.

A osteopath friend did a course on deep-needle acupuncture. His receptionist had a bad car accident a few years ago and hasn't been able to get anywhere near touching her toes since. He needled her and she can now get her hands on the floor again.

I can get physio from the same guy work use for £60 an hour and he does the deep massage thing too before any manipulation. As you say well worth it.

Jamming big needles into spasmed muscles work amazingly well. I won't bother with massages in the future.

Yup had that too, yes same guy, my god that was wonderful.

So much back pain appears to just be down to muscles - my wife was getting blinding headaches - turned out to be a pretty inaccessible muscle in her neck - after several bashes the headaches

Hmmm! I'm not your wife am I?

No. But I would argue that they are doing this despite being a chiropractor. It is the theory behind the treatment that is the problem.

Yes I agree however the treatment and advice was sound (my sister in law is a physio (but lives 200 miles away)) and included a number of manipulation and massage techniques aimed at breaking down scar tissue that had formed (painfull) and back/hip mobilisation and strengthening exercises as well as Piriformis stuff!!
The fact of the matter is the physio's I had seem both pretty much misdiagnosed and were happy to charge a lot.
Just to emphasise I am not defending non science based medicine (egg in a cup :-)) but I am saying that people who have that background can still provide good quality treatment and qualified people can and do offer poor treatment.

IME.. chiro treats the symptom but not the cause.

Physio.. treats the symptoms but also looks at treating the cause

Copy n paste of conclusion on chiropractice from Arthritis Research UK which has done a report on all complementary medicine and therapies.

Report looks at Rheumatoid Arthritis, Osteo Arthritis, Fibromyalgia and Lower Back pain.

Chiropractic is the assessment and treatment of ill-health, especially musculoskeletal disorders and in particular those relating to the spinal column, and is characterised by the use of spinal manipulation. Minor side-effects are common, including headaches, tiredness and dizziness. Although more serious side-effects have been linked to chiropractic treatment, existing evidence suggests that these events are very rare and not actually caused by the therapy itself.
There are serious doubts as to whether chiropractic
works for the conditions considered here: the trial evidence suggests that it’s not effective in the treatment of fibromyalgia and there’s only little evidence that it’s effective in osteoarthritis or chronic low back pain. There’s currently no evidence for rheumatoid arthritis.

Lists it as Amber for safety too.

Looks like you would be better off getting acupuncture for Lower Back Pain.

It's not all subjective like most things and anyone who says it is is demonstrating massive ignorance. It's subjective woo vs objective science.

As far as not qualified, it takes 5 years to qualify as a Chiropractor, including time at medical school and doing human dissection, so its not like its a weekend course or isn't in depth

I am 50, 27 yrs ago I did my lower back in. Saw a physio for about 8 sessions, very minor relief and no actual diagnosis of what I had done..."probably some muscle damage". Niggling pain continued so I ended up seeing a back specialist privately, about £130 in 1991. He couldn't really state what I had done and was pretty wishy washy to say he was a Mr-consultant. Continued niggles throughout the 90s and quite a shelf of ibuprofen later and I had a 2nd course of physio....no use for me.
As a last resort I attended a 3 week (1hr a week) NHS back class. Was told I did right taking ibuprofen and 'had I tried an osteopath ?'
I hadn't so booked locally for an hour session at I think £45 (2001/2) In that hour he told me he was pretty sure of what it was, a slipped disc between v4 and v5 (he used more techie terms) For the days after my hour there I felt like I'd done 6 rounds with a WWF wrestler. I went back the next week for half an hour and I really expected to be told I'd need 10-12-15 sessions. That wasn't the case. After 3 sessions in 3 weeks I left it a fortnight, then another fortnight and that was it. 5 sessions and for the first time in 15yrs my back felt great. I had a further set of sessions about 3 yrs later (my fault as I hadn't properly stuck to his exercise plan to keep my back balanced and strong) I think I did 3 sessions and he got me a reduced price private appointment for an MRI scan. (This was not essential but I wanted to know exactly what was happening with my lower back) This scan (I still have the hard copies) showed that his initial diagnosis was spot on. Not had issues since.
I bet I spent close to £500 on travel to and from physio, consultant fee etc etc but for ME, the £500 spent at the osteopath was a revelation.