[Closed] China's Descent into Madness

I don't think you're a bot. But you can never be too sure.

feels like China may be on the edge of a Tienanmen moment.

I wouldn't be surprised, but equally the crackdown will be swift, exceedingly brutal, and unfortunately probably effective.

Less Tiannemen and more Polish Solidarity movement. Iirc at the time, the crack down and end of things was swift and everything banned for a year or so - before a softening and eventual change to allow elections.

Could be an Adam Curtis bot 🤔

Hal, is that you?

I am shocked by the lack of coverage across the 24-hour broadcasters and newspapers on what is going on in China.

Have you got a helpful link? Apart from the zero covid policy which due to rising cases appears to being enforced with renewed vigor, I am not aware of any other developments.

I can only pay attention to one awful thing at a time so this would be easily missed

Well the point is that there aren't really any links to share of articles. Mainly stuff being shared around via whatapp by expats in Shanghai etc.

There is no conspiracy here, i'm just amazed that the world isn't paying greater attention to what is going on.

i’m just amazed that the world isn’t paying greater attention to what is going on

Yeah me too.

What's going on??

I said hey,

What’s going on??

When bots attack..

You mean the lock down of Shanghai? And some protests because of that lockdown?
It's been mentioned a lot on the R4 Today programme when I'm driving to work.
Pretty much what they did in Whuan when the virus emerged. Its just that people are now getting sick of staying in, and, apparently, the food delivery people are spreading the virus, as they are doing deliveries outside of what the Government allowed.

When bots attack..

Edit: Actually, don't think Joe's a bot. They've been flying under the radar for a long time if they are.

I know most broadcasters now don’t have anyone left in the country

I think the BBC's reporters are now in Taiwan aren't they? I've seen stories about residents in Shanghai getting creative with Wechat and using party slogans in ironic ways to vent their frustrations about that city's draconian lockdown. Those stories are pretty widespread if you look for them. I didn't know the were turning off the internet in other places though.

There's fences being erected around people's homes and businesses and electronic alarms fitted to people's doors so they can't leave unnoticed.

They also still appear to be spraying the streets with massive disinfectant hoses, didn't we work out two years ago that that doesn't work as it's airborne and people don't tend to lick the tarmac on the street anyway?

Switching off the internet isn't new. They turned it off for nine months in a province of 20+ million people in 2009/10 (I know, I was living in it at the time). There's an unwritten contract between the Chinese people and the CCP - the former puts up with restrictions from the latter in return for a guarantee of safety and stability. Not surprisingly given their history, the people are terrified of chaos. The state must be seen to be protecting the people. This time, they might've gone a bit too far...

Europe is the only sane place to live in the world. Thank god we were lucky enough to be born here.

Run that past me again....

Funnily enough I read an article on China's problems today. As far as covid goes low vaccination rates combined with less effective vaccines means trouble ahead as lockdowns fail to dtop the spread.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-battle-over-zero-covid-is-being-fought-in-shanghai

Is the zero covid policy that much at odds with the views of the wider population?

I remember at the start of the original outbreak in China seeing footage of barricades and road closures set up by residents in covid free areas to stop outsiders from entering.

I have to admit that I don't understand the thinking behind the zero covid policy. China cannot hold out for ever against an extremely contagious virus which will eventually become globally endemic.

The best they can hope for I would have thought is to buy time until a mass vaccination programme has been completed. But that doesn't appear to be the plan. I'm frankly baffled.

Europe is the only sane place to live in the world. Thank god we were lucky enough to be born here.

Some of Europe maybe, let's not forget Russia makes up more than 40% of Europe!

I recently listened to a "behind the bastards" episode (podcast) about Russia and China in the 1950s. Russia sold the idea of crop industrialisation to China. Rice would grow so densely that you could walk on top of it. Or so the theory was.

It failed miserably and an estimated 55 million people died but no one had the balls to tell Mao. While he toured, the country the dead and dying were hidden from him, what little rice they had was picked and planted into one field so Mao could walk across it in total bliss thinking his policy was working miracles. Everywhere he visited, he made the famine worse as the little rice they had died.

Hard to believe and understand that was just 70 years ago but gives you an insight into how china works. It's not an easy place to understand living in the UK.

In the UK we seem to get more news about Hong Kong than China being an ex colony and its an anti Chinese story which the media like so much.

Its also gone quiet about the plight of the Uyghurs

Mao's cultural revolution and the adoption of Communism was China's descent into madness

There is no conspiracy here, i’m just amazed that the world isn’t paying greater attention to what is going on.

China has the ‘great firewall of China’, with very strong restrictions on access to any internet that isn’t tightly controlled by the State, basically a good VPN is required, and outsiders entering the country have to hand over any mobile electronics for inspection to make sure they have nothing to enable contact with the global internet.
It’s hardly surprising that relatively little information is getting out, especially with what’s happening closer to home, which is directly impacting the lives of pretty much everyone.

I do see occasional items about what’s going on in the country on Flipboard, but they’re not too common.

I saw one earlier about the barriers being erected outside peoples homes, and earlier pieces about people calling from their apartment windows begging for food and other items, but Ukraine is in many respects more important.

They also still appear to be spraying the streets with massive disinfectant hoses, didn’t we work out two years ago that that doesn’t work as it’s airborne and people don’t tend to lick the tarmac on the street anyway?

China's response to this may be about testing what they can do with social control as well as virus control.

Paul Mozur is a tech and geopolitics reporter for NYT, worth looking him up on twitter for stories and links about what's happening in China.

What will China learn about social control by spraying the streets with disinfectant?

China has the ‘great firewall of China’, with very strong restrictions on access to any internet that isn’t tightly controlled by the State, basically a good VPN is required, and outsiders entering the country have to hand over any mobile electronics for inspection to make sure they have nothing to enable contact with the global internet.

When was this implemented? I was in and out of Shanghai for 2 years prior to 2019. None of my mobile electronic where ever checked.

Is the zero covid policy that much at odds with the views of the wider population?

Who really knows what the average man or women on the Chinesse street thinks, what I've seen from the news is they're expecting a large lockdown, panic buying has started etc, but no mention of any Marshall law type things.

Who knows that the Chineese goverment are thinking though, Covid Zero just doesn't work, ask New Zealand? Long seen as the gold standard for Covid response (well earned) but they've seen that it's near impossible to eradicate it, you've just got to vaccine everyone as 'let it rip' as much as your healthcare system can handle it.

I talk with Chinese colleagues a few times a week, they can’t go anywhere and are in full lockdown. Whenever they mention it (ie if I ask when they can be on a certain site) they seem to follow up with a nervous laugh every time and never really tell me what’s actually happening

Doesn’t sound good. Spent some time over there at the very end of 2019 before COVID, or at least before global awareness of it, and it was already a pretty harsh and soulless place to be. I was in an industrial area, so of course the whole country may not be like that but it felt to me like more of an indication of real life than the rich locals stood on the Bund in Shanghai taking selfies

Europe is the only sane place to live in the world. Thank god we were lucky enough to be born here.

Of course it is, unless you’re one of the minority Muslim ethnic minorities that China is so terrified of, and has financial incentives with quite a few European as well as Middle Eastern countries to have them arrested and extradited back to China for re-education.

So, just to balance things out, here’s some China news…

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/chinese-government-hunting-uyghurs-world-help-surprising-countries-rcna24987

I'm not sure what the initial couple of 'bot' replies are about. I don't think the OP is far off with the thread title tbh.

I have to admit that I don’t understand the thinking behind the zero covid policy. China cannot hold out for ever against an extremely contagious virus which will eventually become globally endemic.

It maybe made sense initially - see NZ/Aus. But as above it's not a sustainable approach, particularly with recent variants... but how to back down? Slightly scary contemplating how far they will go before finally doing so. And it has implications for world economy - closed factories etc. FTSE rattled by this today.

I've got a clubmate who's working in Shanghai & heard from them yesterday....fwiw

"I’m not sure what the initial couple of ‘bot’ replies are about."

Over the weekend there was a thread that was seeking controversy and was (reasonably quickly) outed as a bot as it the initiator was quoting wholesale from other websites.

Europe is the only sane place to live in the world. Thank god we were lucky enough to be born here.

Unfortunately the idiots that voted for Brexit didn't seem to get this message, they believe there's somewhere better, and are on a journey...

"Brexit isn't the destination, it's the vehicle"

Brexit or not the UK is still a European country.

But well done for bringing up brexit, I was starting to think no one would on this thread.

I can only pay attention to one awful thing at a time so this would be easily missed

+1

Have you seen the price of the new GP5000 tubeless tyre? That's just about all I can cope with right now.

What will China learn about social control by spraying the streets with disinfectant?

Well that's only part of it isn't it. I'd take a guess that it's not so much what they learn by a single action, but the message it presents about the reach and scale of the state and how far they can go, or what they learn from the responses as these actions have a cumulative effect.

They spent most of 2020 bombarding their citizens with images of how badly 'The West' was ****ing up Covid, and contrasting it with their magnificent handling of the situation. Particular attention was paid to us leaving our old people to die in droves (insert favourite cliche of choice here about how Asian societies respect the elderly). The subtext was that democracy didn't work, best put your faith in the Party. They've made a rod for their own backs and now have no choice but to double down on a Zero Covid strategy that will never work in the long term.

@montgomery that's a really good theory 👍

I was paying attention from the start because I lived there, and I've been relaxed about Covid ever since the early data coming out of Korea made clear it was not SARS, or MERS, but just something that presented a problem for the very old, the very fat and the very ****ed. I actually expected to hear a conspiracy theory developing that it was a deliberate release by China to solve their own particular demographic problems. Hey, maybe it is and they're just the playing the long game; plausible deniability. You heard it here first...

I have not followed the far east news for a while now. Friends told me their parents have been locked inside their flat for nearly 2 months now. They can only order food at high price with special delivery. Madness!

Brexit or not the UK is still a European country.

Try convincing people who live in the EU of that. "51st state" seems more appropriate, or used to till Brexit screwed the GFA and pissed off Congress.

Perhaps you hadn't noticed, Ernie, but Britain's relationship with Europe is now adversarial rather than cooperative.

As for China, I think think Monty shuld have added a smiley to his conspiracy theories on the origin of the virus but I agree that the Chinese propaganda has left them with few pragmatic options that won't look like a climb down.

Europe is the only sane place to live in the world. Thank god we were lucky enough to be born here.

42% of people who voted in the French Presidential Election voted for an actual fascist, who has been upfront and honest about being a fascist for many years. In fact, she's from a long family line of fascists!

Oh dear, I suggest you read Madame Le Pen's programme, nerd. She's are sort of socialist Priti Patel. I didn't vote for her because it's populist extreme left guff promising the moon when you won't have to deliver. Her success was based on retirement at 60 and promises about spending power. What lost her votes was the black cloud of Frexit.

I voted Macron but think he is stupid to try to reform the retirement system because he won't get the majority necessary to do so if he insists.

Oh dear, I suggest you read Madame Le Pen’s programme, nerd

+1

I happen to have her election flyer in front of me now (French homework) - no worse than the Tory manifesto...

et voila:

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52032316079_b519aae693.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52032316079_b519aae693.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2ngVdMV ]Le Pen flyer[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

If you could just summarise it in 200 words and contrast and compare with the other 10 or so I have on my desk, that would be grand, pref C1 level.

Struggling to reconcile recent posts and the thread title

The flyer avoids a lot of Le Pen's more contentious policiies, Footflats. Happily the TV journalists did a good job of drawing her into clarrifying her position on the stuff that isn't in the tract (Google "Le Pen profession de foi" and "Commission nationale de contrôle de la campagne électorale" for insights). As the interviews and debates went on people got a better handle on the realities behind the tract and her polling deteriorated.

Yeah, it's totally off-topic, piemonster. I did try to include some China content in my posts but ended up just responding to the French and Brexit stuff.

There's an entire thread dedicated to the French presidential election and another one dedicated to brexit.

They spent most of 2020 bombarding their citizens with images of how badly ‘The West’ was **** up Covid, and contrasting it with their magnificent handling of the situation.

China's zero covid policy predates the global pandemic and the virus's establishment in the West. It's hard to imagine that it was established as some sort of complex propaganda exercise especially considering the devastating economic consequences.

Are there many Western countries that didn't screw up their handling of the pandemic?

On the whole I think the majority of Western countries did really well. The initial lockdowns meant that the health services reached capacity but were rarely overloaded and even then transfers of patients from the worst affected areas kept deaths down. Populations respnded wel to restrictions and mask wearing. Vaccines were developed faster than hoped and worked wel enough to end lock downs.

Looking back it was and impresive effort and continues. The last two busses I took in France and Spain had 100% mask compliance. Mask wearing in shops in Spain is still the norm. People have behaved very responsibly and that has meant the health service has coped and society continued to function.

China would do well to take us as a model but seems intent on a futile zero policy - because Omicron is to contaigeous to contain if enough people to maintain basic services reamin active.

China is not the only country which has had a zero covid policy. Haven't most Asian countries which experienced the various viral outbreaks in the recent past applied that policy? Certainly South Korea did :

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/17/south-korea-covid-uk-pandemic

"At the start of the pandemic, Seoul pursued a zero-Covid policy."

"South Korea has attracted a lot of attention for following a specific “east Asian” playbook of maximum suppression"

Although I believe South Korea might have abandoned that policy now.

Lots of recent videos coming from China on reddit.

Crazy scenes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/shanghai?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Wow that reddit page is incredible.

China would do well to take us as a model but seems intent on a futile zero policy – because Omicron is to contagious to contain if enough people to maintain basic services remain active.

Highly unlikely seeing they tell their population that the west are lazy and ignorant.
Kinda works, when going into the office first thing most of the poor devils were asleep at their desks and had been there all night.

China would do well to take us as a model but seems intent on a futile zero policy

If China had the same death rate from Covid as France or the UK, they'd have lost close to 3 million people already, and be losing in the region of 20,000 people a week still now. A hard choice to make for any government. At some point they will have to change policy dramatically, but I don't think they're going to be ready to use our countries as a model for handling a pandemic any time soon.

So where does that leave them? Triple vaccination with RN vaccines has been very much a part of the European strategy and that part of the model would significantly cut China's death rate in the elderly. That isn't happening.

There were debates in Europe about sabotaging the lives of the young to increase the life expectancy of the elderly, they seem even more pertinant in China where measures are more severe. The economic damage will drive many into poverty, more than it did here with shorter less restrictive lock downs.

I've been in Spain recently and the number of tourist/pilgrim dependant business failures is depressing. We talked to bar and accomodation owners who were hanging on for an increase in business that so far isn't happening. Business owners have run out of cash and patience.

Omicron has gone through France in a couple of waves, the first one when it arrived and the second when we took our masks off. The second was also the one when people just threw in the towel on looking after themselves. It went though Madame's school (she caught it within 4 days of the kids' masks coming off in schools) in about three weeks and the teachers that hadn't already had it caught it, even those who like Madame who continued to wear masks themselves.

Despite that the death rate (edit: and long Covid rate) has been acceptable to the population, a thank you to Pfizer and Moderna.

I find it baffling that China can shut down a whole city but cant manage to vaccinate its population.

I find it baffling that China can shut down a whole city but cant manage to vaccinate its population.

they have - but their vaccine is (relatively) ineffective.

So where does that leave them?

In a very difficult position. But they'd also be in a difficult position if 3 million people had died, and thousands were still dying every day. Hard choices. No good options.

We in Europe aren't in a difficult position (apart from an unrelated war) and nearly 2 million people have died:

As of April 17, 2022, there have been 1,944,657 deaths in Europe overall due to the coronavirus (COVID-19) since the first recorded European ...

I think that given the options that Europe was faced with the best ones were chosen. Things haven't been good but are a lot better with 70%+ of the population having had the virus after vaccination and having survived in reasonable health.

Well, there's the balance. China haven't had millions of deaths. And don't still have thousands more dying every single day. They've taken a different path. There are huge costs either way. Hard choices. No good options.

If there's stuff going on in China it's probably something to do with this guy.

https://palladiummag.com/2021/10/11/the-triumph-and-terror-of-wang-huning/

Nobody knows how many people have died in china, because the government is utterly untrustworthy.

Unlike all the other governments in the world?

The United Nations World Health Organisation seems to feel it knows :

https://covid19.who.int/region/wpro/country/cn

I said hey,

"Been trying, to meet you"

I don't know why our politicians aren't talking about this or why it isn't getting more coverage in the news? It's disgraceful really how the Chinese are treated.

Vaccination programmes in China didn't do the old and infirm. They did "key workers", then adults, then kids.

If they try to "live with the virus" they'll have mass deaths amongst that unvaccinated group. I think they're waiting on their own home-grown mRNA vaccines to resolve this situation. Might be another 6/7 months away though.

Boosters have been on the go for a bit. I got my first two late, but have been relatively safe in the "west" of the country. Just got my booster, again a bit late. I believe the inactivated vaccines we've had are reasonably effective against Omicron once you've had 3 shots.

Asides from "key workers", the programme is voluntary. This is where people might be getting protection and numbers wrong. See, I'm hearing a lot of voices saying they won't take the booster. That they've done what the party asked and got their first two jabs, but now they don't want any more, want changes to lifestyles after so long living how they have been.

Psychiatric/counseling treatment "may" have risen during the last two years. The face of the high street changed, internal and external tourism, supplies of luxury goods drying up. Changes to young people's educational systems have been happening. The latest change on 1st May regarding employer treatment equality of those who attend FE colleges will be interesting to watch.

Meanwhile, a second economic stream is being constructed. Internal, I guess in case of isolationism in future.

Speaking of finances, my electric, gas and water cost £14.50 last month for two of us in a 3bed apartment. Didn't have to use the heating any more.

EDIT: regarding the green covered fencing that went up in Shanghai. We were used to that in other cities. It provides privacy for the community, and prevents people going in and out and spreading the virus. People get caught breaching guidelines, spitting on people, fighting with security. Mentally ill people, or just people who didn't get punched in the face enough growing up. The fences aren't making prisons. The communities we live in are large, fairly spacious, and green. You can, masked up, get adequate exercise inside your community if you steer clear of others on the running tracks.

I find it baffling that China can shut down a whole city but cant manage to vaccinate its population.

they have – but their vaccine is (relatively) ineffective.

Not very well, very poor take up in the older people, the ones who most need it.

And, as mentioned before, their home brew vaccines are less than 50% effective...

Thanks @dazh genuinely fascinating article.

@footflaps It's a bit difficult to say "take up" is "very poor" for older people when they weren't allowed to have them. You're suggesting they could walk in, flash their ID card and and get them in their arms!

Our cleaners at work were over the age. The dismay on their faces told us everything we needed to know.

for older people when they weren’t allowed to have them

That I didn't know, I'd seen graphs of rates by age group but I'm sure they suggested or stated that it was poor take up rather than not permitted.

@footflaps

Got the GF to check online, just in case it had changed. If the old person has an underlying health issue, they can get their doctor to authorize it. Otherwise, they're blocked from having it.

Take up is similar to the West, but the vulnerable people (old) don't really have it. Hence, in my eyes, the ongoing zero-covid policy. It'd end up like the UK care homes when our gov discharged covid patients into them.

Thanks @dazh genuinely fascinating article.

My mind always boggles at China. As that article says its experiencing much of the same problems we have in the west, but rather than throwing their hands up as we do and saying nothing can be done, they instead take radical - and ruthless - action. Their approach to covid is a good example of that. My major question is whether it's possible to combine the Chinese will to enact change with the Western anti-authoritarian, individualist mindset? I have no idea if it is possible but suspect it would have major benefits if it was.

An excellent read, dazh. If you add Europe to the comparison it becomes even more interesting. If you look at the list of problems common to China and US and then EU law you'll find that the ills listed can be fought within a democratic system which is also decentralised to the point of being a community of countries.

Very interesting @dazh. Thanks

If there’s stuff going on in China it’s probably something to do with this guy

That was a very interesting article

Worth a listen from last night:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016pwc

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/umvqhe/the_chinese_government_has_resorted_to_gift/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

My major question is whether it’s possible to combine the Chinese will to enact change with the Western anti-authoritarian, individualist mindset? I have no idea if it is possible but suspect it would have major benefits if it was.

Maybe the closest you'd get to that would be the Aus/NZ experience? Total deaths in Oz is <8000 people. We have 84% 'fully vaccinated'(behind Spain, but pretty high), had the longest lockdowns in the world in Melbourne (apparently) and have mandated vaccination in some industries. All despite a vocal minority of anti-COVID-vaxxers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/11/lifting-zero-covid-policies-in-china-could-risk-16m-deaths-says-study

National bullshit pride is stopping using any foreign vaccines that are more effective. The CCP are just hell bent on their authoritarian ways, Chinese superiority yarn they wish to spin so as to bolster national pride, nationalism and an increasingly aggressive stance towards Taiwan.