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Have you considered that being in contact with dogs at a very young age helps to stop children develop serious allergies? I posted a link on the first page of this thread.
As far as I understand, it may help reduce the likelihood of a child developing various different allergies. If the child is already allergic to dogs it will most likely make them worse.
As someone who has been allergic to dogs and cats my entire life, I'd be pissed off if the CM suddenly said, 'By the way, we have a dog now.'
Even if my children weren't allergic, I doubt I'd be able to keep them in an environment like that all day and not be sniffing/streaming/sneezing all evening once they came home. Not without some thorough decontamination as soon as they were in the door.
Basically, if you're a CM, don't just inform your customers after you've gotten a dog. Give people time to make other arrangements.
So no, the OP is not being unreasonable.
NYANBUA
Childminders perogative but i hope they gave you enough time to make alternative arrangements.
Not one single person (ok maybe one or two) keeps dogs around kids in the honest belief that the dog is going to bite the child.
Every single dog that bites a child for whatever reason, has "never done that before"... until it did.
If its a puppy, it risks not being in control of its limits, and some fingers are likely to get nipped, even if its just in play
If its an adult, its big enough to do some damage if it takes a dislike to your or any other kids, and may have a limited tolerance to being wound up by having too many kids up in its face.
A friendly lollopy family collie who has lived in the environment for years is one thing.
a new dog in a new place is another
I wouldnt be comfortable myself, unless the childminder had made a clear effort to risk assess and risk control.
Holds up hand and didn’t expect anyone to take that comment seriously.
thanks and no worries on my side 🙂
Just curious, is anyone here a CM, or their respective other halfs? Although no longer, my missus was a CM, and as a house we had to do all sorts to please Ofsted and others, however one thing they were all clear about is that they do not care about the house or what is in it (except food allergies). The only thing that ever seemed to bother Ofsted was ticking boxes for safeguarding, mentally and from abuse and that you followed early years learning programmes properly. Dogs, cats , bears , knives easily accessible - couldn't care less..
@ernielynch you are right, we don't know what the cm financial situation is and I didn't implying anything about their situation. My point stands that making a decision that affects your business and income without first testing the market is silly.
If you consider I have implied anything, that's your perogative.
Well you have implied that making a decision that affects her business and income without first testing the market is silly.
I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion without even talking to her. Perhaps losing a few clients isn't important to her, perhaps the income it generates isn't vital, perhaps she feels that owning a dog which she can take on walks will enrich her life sufficiently to make a drop in income worthwhile.
Who knows? What I do know is that aspect of the situation is of no relevance to the OP. It is the child minder's personal and private life.
I do have sympathy for the OP if they have been dropped in it due to lack of advanced warning, but all the other stuff is irrelevant IMHO.
I don't know but I suspect that there is the possibility that it didn't even occur to the child minder that getting a dog would cause issues for some parents.
I guess the way round the problem might be to come to some agreement whereby the dog is kept separate from the OP's children short term until alternative arrangements can be worked out. That would be sensible imo.
We need an update.....
Just to close this out; the dog will not be kept completely separate for the children and we did not get assurance around how they would deal with/manage our children's fear when the dog was mixing with the children. Having my children sat scared in what is meant to be a mentally and physically safe environment for however long it takes until/if they ever become comfortable around dogs is not acceptable to us.
We have removed the children from the setting and they will be going to after school club instead which has just extended its opening times making it a viable alternative. This comes with the benefit of saving us £160 per month too.
I will continue to work with the kids introducing them to calm, known dogs in a slow and controlled manner to minimise their fear of dogs as much as possible.
It's your choice and your decision, and undoubtedly you know your kids and have their best interests at heart.
Personally, as the parent of nearly grown up kids now, and all (and i can't stress this enough) -> IMHO <- I think you are missing an opportunity here.
And also IMHO, and my last piece of free advice, worth what you paid for it...... I know the desire is to protect but that can go too far. Part of parenting is not wrapping them in cotton wool and letting them get into uncomfortable, sometimes even slightly scary situations. Resilience and independence will be of great use in their futures.
No answer needed, not looking for an argument, just my 2p
You're not being unreasonable if you ask what the arrangement is going to be when your kids are there. You're not being unreasonable if you kindly decline their services going forward and find a new childminder if the arrangements are not to your liking - it is the CM who is making an unwanted change.
@OP glad you have a positive outcome. You know what is best for your kids and FWIW I think the childminder introducing this into what is effectively her workplace, without consultation (or risk assessment) with her customers is very poor.
No answer needed, not looking for an argument, just my 2p
Well, you're going to get an answer anyway. You sound like someone who has never seen a child with a proper dog phobia.
I'm talking seeing a 2 year old freeze in their tracks while their whole body shakes (sounds like a contradiction but I'm sure you can picture it), not even crying but making a tiny whimpering sound with a look of absolute terror on their face.
If you had you wouldn't be suggesting leaving kids with such a phobia with a CM who appears to have bought a dog on a whim. It's the kind of thing that takes very careful planning and lots of effort to overcome.
You made the correct decision OP - what on earth was the CM thinking, I'd have far more sympathy for the CM if they had discussed it with the parents of the children beforehand.
We have removed the children from the setting and they will be going to after school club instead which has just extended its opening times making it a viable alternative
I'm interested in why you used the word "setting"
Do you write menus for flowery restaurants in your spare time?
Sounds like a good outcome BTW. And IMHO you weren't being unreasonable.
BruceWee - that pretty much describes my eldest. She will force herself to touch a dog if it is laying absolutely still (think very elderly dogs that barely move) so she doesn't get picked on by other kids but when she has done that previously we've had nightmares and even found her sitting on her bed shaking and whimpering like that hours afterwards. Any dog that bounces around energetically forget it, she's rigid with fear.
The thing about phobias is they are not rational so just telling her it'll be fine, stand still and tuck her hands in doesn't make a jot of difference to her. There is no reasoning, it is sheer terror.
That is our starting point that we are working from in introducing her to dogs.
As I said we are doing it very slowly in a very controlled way.
I’m interested in why you used the word “setting”
Because that is what it is. It may be their house but to us it is the childcare setting in terms of the regulations and contract. Plus, being on a school standards board with an imminent OFSTED inspection looming we are having all the correct terms and safeguarding procedures reinforced in preparation. Childcare setting, educational setting, safe space, etc, etc.......
It also attempts to remove the emotional connotations from the discussion; whilst it may be their home it is also a regulated workplace which has to be suitable for the mental and physical safeguarding of all the children in attendance.
I am not saying it is dangerous, it is just now unsuitable for the needs of our child and after discussion in our view the risk profile is now too high for us to continue sending our children there.
I understand your decision and the CM's response is disappointing.
But might there have been merit in at least taking the kid to see it? Like, rather than a binary [carry on using the service | vote with your feet] decision, maybe just pop round for a couple of minutes? Go "it's over there, look!" and then leave, rather than a first step being leaving her there for the day?
that pretty much describes my eldest. She will force herself to touch a dog if it is laying absolutely still (think very elderly dogs that barely move) so she doesn’t get picked on by other kids but when she has done that previously we’ve had nightmares and even found her sitting on her bed shaking and whimpering like that hours afterwards. Any dog that bounces around energetically forget it, she’s rigid with fear.
If that's the level your eldest is at then sounds like the right decision. Even though exposure therapy is part of overcoming phobias, I understand why you need to do it in a more controlled setting than you feel you have here. Even if puppies are brilliant and generally "non-threatening" even if they are a bit bouncy.....
Does the 4 year old have to miss out on the experience because the 8yo has a phobia. Could the 4yo try and see what happens....maybe even their enthusiasm will create enthusiasm in the elder one?
(yeh, logistics, etc. - but another parental learning, forget organisational excellence, planning go to hell, etc. If they have to be in two places at once for their own good, find a way to do it)
I like that idea @cougar. In fact I think it could be enhanced by trying to find a childminder with the right type/size/age of dog. It would just mean visiting a few and saying "show me your puppies".
It would just mean visiting a few and saying “show me your puppies”.
😂
My mother in law had an absolute phobia of dogs - she once passed out when a GSD barked at her. Would cross the street to avoid any dog. Wouldn't visit parks because of off lead dogs bounding around
So I brought this home! Karelian Bear Dog - prehistoric breed from Finland for keeping bears (and mother in law's) away from the home.
It took some time but once MIL understood a little dog psychology and why dogs do what they do and just how gentle he is they are now best buddies. She herself said that Bert has cured her of her phobia.
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Because that is what it is. It may be their house but to us it is the childcare setting in terms of the regulations and contract.
Can't emphasise this enough, in this context its a child care setting first and residential home second unless the two are separate. All the stuff about getting kids used to dogs and allergies is irrelevant at best and dangerous at worse, man off the street reasoning doesn't hold, it's all down to the Ofsted framework and risk assessments as with any business.
Tbf Bert looks like he could rip me in two should he choose to!! Cracking looking hound!
Tbf Bert looks like he could rip me in two should he choose to!! Cracking looking hound!
I deliberately chose a photo of him looking 'manly' but I was wanting to illustrate that someone who had a fear/phobia of dogs that sounds similar to the OP's eldest can overcome them although perhaps not in this childcare environment/discussion.
First comment from Sister in law was "OMG what have you done, you've got a wolf - you'll never see mum (MIL) again"
Result👍
Been watching this with a bit of interest. I always had dogs growing up and couldn't imagine anyone would have any issue being around dogs. Now I have children I can see it from the other side, my son developed a fear of dogs, to the point he tried stepping into the road in traffic to get away from a barking dog which was "only being friendly"
We had worked with him, taking neighbours older dogs out for a walk etc and he was getting better until a family member got a puppy. We were under the impression it had calmed down and got to their house. It decided to chase him, he tripped up and it nipped at his legs and ripped his trousers. All of a sudden he was terrified again.
The idea of throwing a child into that environment when they have a true fear is bordering on child abuse.
think the OP has made the only sensible decision possible.
OP, serious offer.
I'm not sure where you're based but if you're near The Midlands and you think getting your children to meet a calm, slow moving dog would be beneficial then drop me a message.
We have a retired greyhound here, lazy, sleepy, doesn't bark and will only move for a piece of cheese or to a different part of the house to sleep.
I have a very wary niece and Eric (the hound) has made her feel much more at ease with dogs.
I’m interested in why you used the word “setting”
They all do that. The nurseries we have used both refer to the area the kids are in as "the setting".
It's weird.
i’m pleased that you managed to find alternative care for your children. 👍
It would just mean visiting a few and saying “show me your puppies”.
If they’re for sale, I want the ones with brown noses…
So glad you have found a suitable alternative for your children. Doing this in the manner your childminder has is not acceptable to be honest. Definitely a need to keep a dog and children in separate spaces and revisit risk assessments on the part of her business.
A dog wandering freely in the same space is thoughtless at best and adds as significant level of risk. One of the key things with dogs and children is making sure they are supervised all the time. I wouldn’t leave any child - let alone a child who fears dogs, alone at any point.
We ensure that interactions between my pre-school nephew and our dog are managed. He is an excitable and playful dog with lots of energy and my nephew is very slight - the potential for accident is high - the dog hasn’t bitten anyone yet, but we wouldn’t let him have the opportunity to bite a small child.
One of the key things with dogs and children is making sure they are supervised all the time
Our dog has slept on our sons bed for years
I’m interested in why you used the word “setting”
Do you write menus for flowery restaurants in your spare time?
It's a thing within early years and childcare.
They could be a school, nursery, outdoor kindergarten, childminder, after school club etc. It's easier, and more inclusive to all forms of provision, to apply the term 'setting', or early years and childcare.
Wait to you hear how often GIRFEC is used.
wtf is that?
Hiya,
I'm a dog owner and my dog is a collie cross. However out of all dog breeds they are the snappiest to be honest.
Collie's bar none are responsible for all my dog bites in my lifetime.
You have to be good at training them from the start. I'm definitely of the opinion that the child minder is mad to think this is acceptable and should've gauged opinions first. Kinda symptomatic of the modern world I feel. I'd say you made the right decision about the child minder. I guess you probably won't be the only one in this respect. In fairness all dogs are unpredictable to a certain extent, even our dog warned off my brothers children, it was after one of them pulled her tail. Since then we have to be very careful with our dog, even though she is totally docile most of the time. Dogs have long memories and as I said unpredictable in some respects. If the child minder has their own children around at the same time you don't know if the dog may bite to protect them.
JeZ
Not read all the thread, but I assume that the person was getting a puppy?
I am a dog owner, and I wouldnt want my kid around a puppy. When we got our Boxer our son was about 3 yrs old. He didnt know how to behave around dogs, the puppy didnt know how to behave around kids. Both need training.
I cant see how a childminder could train a dog and potentially multiple kids at one time.
I would have no reservation having my kid around an older trained dog but not a new pup.
Has the childminder thought of the Pup's welfare?Being immersed in the midst of god knows how many exciteable kids, presumably without its own safe space, ain't going to be fun, and it may well nip. Puppies do. There may be no malice in their nips but it'll only take one injured kid and one irate parent to brand it a wrong 'un...
So, in conclusion, the answer is dogs not sprogs