[Closed] Childminder question ref holiday entitlement

I assume she is just bargaining with you.

Tell her you won't pay it and she might not accept your job offer.

So I guess it is up to you - is she worth another £1,200?

If she is self-employed then she has no legal right to statutory holiday entitlement. It's £100 per month - is she worth it?

But if someone exclusively employs someone for a certain time, the 'employee' gets more rights (and the 'employer' also has to pay NI contributions).

If she's a 'standard childminder' - ie takes kids into her home as a business and won't be one to one with your child (she's not a nanny) then if she chooses to shut up shop for a month a year then it's her loss.

Only 'get-out' could be if she says she divides 11 months worth of payments across a 12 month period.

My son's nursery always closed between christmas and new year but they didn't charge for those days (or bank holidays).

Hmm, this is what we're trying to figure out. She really is the best we've come across and you can see she's devoted to nurturing and developing infants and children (as opposed to just looking after them).

But £1200 is financially and psychologically a big hit, especially when she's in S Africa for 2 weeks this autumn and we're stumping up £600 of it. Going to find a way to approach this - especially as she surely can't have a legal right to such.

She charges for bank holidays too - so my argument is we can 'use' her for those if we choose, i.e. we want a day off to ourselves once in a while.

Tell her to jog on.

so is she a nanny working in your home as an employee or a childminder (LEA and ofsted registered) doing care in her home?

Then she may tell you someone else IS prepared to pay it for her.

so is she a nanny working in your home as an employee or a childminder (LEA and ofsted registered) doing care in her home?

Childminder (LEA/Ofsted reg etc) in her home. Normally has 3 infants/children on the go.

then she should be sorting her own holiday pay out of money she takes when she's working - not expecting you to cover it.

However, if she's who you want and other parents are prepared to use her under these circumstances then you've got a difficult choice if she's not prepared to budge.

There are plenty of parents around here who would haven't an issue paying for the full 52 weeks.

Mate I feel for you! We've been through this process ourselves about a year ago and it's a nightmare. Here's what we learned:

Childminders are self employed businesses, they are not employees and therefore have no 'entitlement' under law for things like paid holidays. If they are a 'nanny' and are employed as such, then you do have to pay them for their holiday entitlement (27 days including Bank Holidays I think) but you also have to pay PAYE/NI contributions etc. If you're not paying NI then you're not employing a nanny.

Every childminder we interviewed wanted to be paid for their holidays and wanted us to pay when we took our son away on holiday also. In the end we negotiated that we would pay for one but not the other and our child minder agreed. We do not pay her when she takes holidays but we do when we take him out.

£1200 seems like a lot unless you're in central London. We're down in west sussex and full time care, 8am to 5pm, including lunch, nappies and all trips out (he went horse riding last week for example) and it costs us about £1000 a month.

When you find a child minder you trust, then you won't feel half as bad at the cost; you'll also want to hang on to them at all costs. If you're baulking at their rate or their demands for concessions, then it's more than likely because you don't see the value and/or don't trust them.

For us part of that trust came from the fact that the childminder was willing to partner with us and be equitable. She recognised that we were making a big commutment to the hours we were offering her and that on a lot of occassions we are able to have our son here rather than take him to her, so all in all, she gets a good deal from our placement. In return for that, she was willing to give up on her paid holiday and consequently we feel we have someone we really trust.

Best of luck. It's a really hard pill to swallow initially but a good one will make your life so much easier.

I'm with you on that one geetee. Finding the 'right' CM can be a lengthy struggle, particularly when some seem the sort to do little more than babysit.

£1200 seems like a lot unless you're in central London. We're down in west sussex and full time care, 8am to 5pm, including lunch, nappies and all trips out (he went horse riding last week for example) and it costs us about £1000 a month.

Surrey - not much change from that in the immediate vicinity unless you want a (sometimes significant) drop in quality.

She really seems to be the identikit minder for us and ticks all the boxes. Alright, we don't 'know' her properly yet, but all the signs are that she'll be fantastic. Only time will tell though if we trust her implicitly - but she feels right, that's for sure. Hence we're happy to pay more.

Will put my diplomatic hat on and see how we go.

Cheers guys

Also check the small print regarding being 5 minutes late, some of the childminders we saw wanted £50 per 15 minutes for being late 😯

Ours seemd ok at first, 1/2 pay for 2 weeks holiday on each side. But she crossed out the settling in session section of the contract, my wife done one day work then left and we got stitched for 4 weeks notice 🙁

The bad news is, if she is deemed to be an employee (which is determined by the applcation of the IR35 test ... google it and answer the questions and will give you a yes / no answer) then you do have to pay her the statutory holiday entitlements (currently 27 days annually due, pro rata for part time employees).

The entitlement does include any Public holidays etc, and you can nominate what days employees must take as paid annual leave (so yes ... you can make her work public holidays for no extra wage etc).

You cannot negotiate out of it, or pay them the cash equivalent and if you do attempt to do so you are opening yourself up to all sorts of bother if they get offside with you at any stage.

Even employees on short term contracts / acting under agent have the same entitlements if deemed to be an employee.

If she is deemed not to be an employee by IR35 then its purely a contract negotiation between you and her company (be it LTD or self employeed)

Bearing in mind that any calculation of salary should also include the holiday entitlement (ie annual cost / salary).

The one solace is that being employed for under a year there is very little recourse available to her through the Employment Tribunals.

and you can nominate what days employees must take as paid annual leave

but she's not an employee, she's a small business offering a service to several 'customers' from her own home.

If she were a nanny at the OP's home caring only for his child it woudl be different.

Hence the recommendation of applying the IR35 test to the situation, and letting HMRC decide once and for all ....

My wife and I have childminded for about 10 years. Because childminders are self employed then in theory we can charge what we like. However I would say it is good practice not to charge when we are on holiday. We take 4 weeks off a year and don't charge, but we do average out 11 months pay over 12 so that parents have a fixed monthly fee and we still have money coming in whilst away. In some cases this works out slightly cheaper for parents. Try and find out what other childminders in the area are charging and see if you can negotiate a more agreeable payment structure. If you need any help or advice, drop me an E-mail and I will be happy to help.

She should charge enough in the weeks whe is working to take the weeks she's not off without charging.

But, it costs you the same regardless, so does it really matter?

Andy, would you mind if I emailed you some questions? My wife has been a nanny abroad and I wanted to find out if childminding was a career option here.

Cheers,
Rich

And of course it is a double-whammy as the OP pays for her holiday AND has to pay someone else to look after the kid(s) whist she is getting rogered senseless in Magaluf.

The question is, would you be happier if she didn't charge you when she took holiday, but charged 9% more when she is working instead?

I think this thread has just won the highly coveted 'most middle class subject matter ever posted on the forum' award 😉

*sips latte and goes back to reading the Guardian media section*

I think this thread has just won the highly coveted 'most middle class subject matter ever posted on the forum' award

That would be because the subject matter suggests that both parents are actually [i]working[/i].

That would be because the subject matter suggests that both parents are actually working

That would, by definition, make them working class surely?

Seems I have somehow been misrouted to mumsnet

Its ok. Don't worry. I've just been over there and they're discussing 29er tyres.

I'm sure the blip in the space/time continuum will be resolved shortly 😀

That would, by definition, make them working class surely?

Nah that would be too logical. Our nomenclature is designed to cause maximum confusion.

The upper classes are as poor as church mice
Thge middle class work harder than the working classes and typically have more disposable income than the upper classes
And the working classes don't tend to work, they just live of state benefits and spend it all on fags, booze and Sky Plus subscriptions.

That would be because the subject matter suggests that both parents are actually working.

Here's an idea, one of you could stop working and actually look after your kids, like proper parents? Or would that be too much of a restriction on your ability to buy the latest bling-machine to show off in the car parks of the gnarly SE? 😉

Pulls up a chair....
8)

Oooooooooo controversial.

I'm just doing a fresh cafetiere? Hob Nob anyone?

Wow, the costs associated with having kids always amaze me - I don't know how folks do it. Just read through this thread, and realised that it's going to cost you around £15,000 a year in child minding fees.

At least you know what you're getting into from the off. Its to prepare you for later life when they develop a yearning for a crack habit/university education*

*delete whichever is presently the cheapest to maintain

In fairness it would take a salary of around £21500 just to pay for those fees so giving up work mightn't be the worst idea.

Are they chocolate hobnobs?

Edit: actually it won't be quite as much as that as I forgot to allow for a tax free allowance.

*is not convinced the 😉 will take the sting out of it*

Giving up work might cost you dear later in life though as a 5-7 year break doesn't do you any favours career wise.

Plus, if you already earn say 35-40k then you are still way ahead.

And you may not actually like your kids enough to want to spend any time with them. They might be ginger or summink

Binners - It is Eddy who is in the space time continuum.

And I reckon the OP needs to check if the childminder is eating the kids cake too.

*is not convinced the will take the sting out of it*

I shouldn't have bothered putting it in tbh.

Giving up work might cost you dear later in life though as a 5-7 year break doesn't do you any favours career wise.

Plus, if you already earn say 35-40k then you are still way ahead.

That's assuming you are more interested in money than your kids.

Richpenny drop me a mail and will pleased to help.

I guess some people are interested in money in the hope having more of it will enable them to do better by their children.

I think you'll find I'm more working 'arse' than working class. Certainly not middle.

Would be great if 'er indoors could drop her job and be a stay-at-home mum, but as has been said already, getting back into working life isn't necessarily easy. Especially after say 2-3yrs. Plus the difference between her taxed income and minder's fees makes it that bit more worthwhile.

But this isn't just about finances. We want to do the best we can for the little fella but also be realistic where we feel is necessary.

Certainly food for thought all this child rearing malarkey.

Here's an idea, one of you could stop working and actually look after your kids, like proper parents? Or would that be too much of a restriction on your ability to buy the latest bling-machine to show off in the car parks of the gnarly SE?

You know Grum it's a fair point but before we go any further, and in a non-pejorative way, do you have children? Just helps to establish where you're coming from in terms of the discussion.

I guess the bottom line is that we couldn't really afford for one of us not to work. Mostly that's about mortgage costs, which to some extent was our choice and to some extent was something driven by the market. We could have chosen to remain in a very small house. Still a nice house and one that would have served a purpose, but we didn't so there you go. Sometimes you have to make decisions that are right for a whole bunch of reasons that aren't always apparent to others.

FWIW I certainly don't mind paying the child care costs. My son is very happy, gets to play with other children, has lots of adventures with the child minder etc. We still spend a good deal more time with him than a lot of other parents I know because although we pay for full time care, I work from home and my wife's hours mean she is usuall back around 2pm.

There's an argument that actually our son will be more rounded and have a better upbringing when we (his parents) have help with that process. The parents I know who have one stay home parent and one work parent, all either have very high single incomes and/or have a great deal of help from parents, an option we don't have readily available.

But again Grum I think you're sort of hitting on a good point. We've created a situation in the UK where it's very difficult for one parent to give up work and make the situation financially viable.

BTW I really was joking when I made the remarks about class.

Hmmmm ... C_G is pontificating ... should I put in my twopennyworth?

Grum/MF/geetee - yep, we want to create as much financial wellbeing as we realistically can while building a solid home life. No harm in that methinks - provided it's done sensibly.

IMO it's a good deal harder to 'survive' in this climate. We can't just think of today, not with mortgages and everything else. Hence providing for tomorrow has to come into our thinking.

I'm also in agreement that a quality minder can bring something very valuable to the lad's development. Plus we, like geetee, spend plenty of time with him and want to do our best all round.

We've created a situation in the UK where it's very difficult for one parent to give up work and make the situation financially viable.

+1

While I have no kids many of my friends do. While its a small sample statistically all the children where one parent worked part time / not at all outside the home to look after them the children are happy and well balanced, the children who were looked after by strangers so both parents could pursue their careers have issues.
To have the first £20 000+ of your earnings accounted for in childcare costs sounds crazy to me. I know families who live on that sort of money

While I have no kids many of my friends do. While its a small sample statistically all the children where one parent worked part time / not at all outside the home to look after them the children are happy and well balanced, the children who were looked after by strangers so both parents could [s]pursue their careers[/s] [i]earn enough to pay a mortgage[/i] have issues

FTFY

Just about to refill the cup and open another packet of bickies... Thanks TJ!

Binners - the £1200 a month childcare costs is a similar cost to a decent mortgage in itself is it not?

I know some people have to return to work but I know plenty who do not have to who chose to. If you wish to have children it seems reasonable to suggest you could perhaps look after them yourself and work out how you will do this first.
Yes I have kids Yes I do less work s. Why would i want to work when I can spend time with my kids teaching then to ride bikes and letting off whoppee cushions in libraries? I bet the best child minder in the world will not share all the same values as you. Yes I have used child minders as well but mainly because juniour senior was poor at socialising

Nice work Grumm/Binners but you should have really gone for the jugular too polite

TJ we could have fun why do you now want to claim that all the children will have "issues" - your sample size makes you claim utter BS and no I dont want to argue about how your personal experience/choices or prejudices can be wrong thanks - somewhat over played the card 🙄
Lets just goad the parents for being hearltess and avericous instead ?

D'you really think they've not thought of this, Junkyard?

It is indeed. But You have to look at it as part of a longer-term picture TJ. I'd say it mainly effects women. That cost is a hit you take for a few years in order to maintain your place on any career path, and its attendant Salary.

What this says about the attitude to women in the vast majority of British employers is pretty depressing. Take a break to have kids = end of career

Yes molgrips they have thought lets have a kid but lets not look after it ourself I say nothing but nothing is more importnat than bringing up your kids.
Whilst I accept everyone has the right to do as they please I just think you should bring your kids up without using hired hands ...call me old fashioned 😉
Ps the couple I know both earn 50k which is massive up north but still both [imho] value their career more than their kids I suspect one day the kids may twig but I hope not. themother once said I love my kids to bits but I could not spend all day with them for example.

I dont want to argue I accept some people have no choice which is awful for them but I am sure we have all heard parents return after half term saying how relieved they are to get back to work etc that is more what I am getting at than child care per se. I am much poorer for my decision but do not regret it.

well... either old fashioned, or a lot better off than most Junkyard. Most people can't afford to bring kids up without childcare.

And I like how nursery staff/childminders are being referred to as 'hired hands' and 'strangers'. I'd use 'trained professionals', but even that doesn't them justice. The staff of the nursery my kids went to were some of the loveliest people I've ever met. And my kids adored them.

[i]I just think you should bring your kids up without using hired hands ...call me old fashioned [/i]

So you'll be home educating then?

or does sanctimony become optional once they reach 4 and a bit years old and a professional can be brought in?

Whilst everyone is on their soapboxes don't forget it's only for a couple of years until the heartless parents kick them out into places with cowboys and strangers and all sorts in schools.

Quality, not quantity. Next doors kids are looked after 24/7 by their parents. Well, when I say parents I actually mean Mr Sony TV and Mrs Panasonic DVD player....

the children who were looked after by strangers so both parents could pursue their careers have issues.

The key to that statement is the word stranger. Our childminder is not a stranger to either me, my wife or our son. It's the key reason why we didn't consider a nursery place; we our son to bond with someone, which he has done.

Also I know that £20k is enough to live on, but not down here it's not, at least not in any location that I would want to bring my son up in.

It's a choice. We could move to a rough suburb of London and expose our son to all the nasty shite that goes on there (I think it's five teenagers that have been stabbed and killed so far this year) or we can live in a decent suburb, well outside the M25 and pay twice the living costs.

OK, here's my experiences.

Didn't think I could have kids but wasn't unduly worried as am definitely not an earth mother type. Fell pregnant, left a good job and had no intention of going back. Ex had good job but we were prepared to 'make do'. Neither of us were into possessions or fancy holidays etc. etc.

Aged 2, son had poor health and needed investigating. Subsequently he needed regular hospital operations and associated appointments. Accompanying a terrified 2 year old to an operating theatre and staying with him until anaesthetic kicked in - only Mum will do! Being there when he woke up too, again only Mum will do!

He continued to need operations until his mid-teens. Oh and daughter had a few ops as well.

We didn't have family nearby but managed the best we could. But, this is the thing, when you are a full-time Mum, you build up a support network of friends who can help and obviously one reciprocates when needed.

My kids are in their mid-20's now and we have some interesting discussions. My son still speaks warmly of his childhood, the fun times he had and how I was always there for them both and, indeed, still am.

But the downside? The workplace. My skills became redundant although I consider my skillset now to be wide-ranging, it's not always quantifiable.

The future? Well I guess at some point my kids will start families but I do know one thing, I am not prepared to do child-minding duties! Got some lovely bikes to ride instead. 😀

So, to summarise, I did what was best for my kids.

Let's get this straight, anecdotal evidence and small sample sizes is no good at all for deciding whether or not to wear a helmet, but for childcare it's fine?

We were lucky enough to buy our house just before the market went insane. We also bought based on only one of use working and work in a profession with a national pay scale while living in a cheap part of the country.

This meant my wife could drop to part-time, flexible work while the kids were young.

If we had different jobs, lived somewhere else, were a few years younger or left having kids later, or whatever, we'd not have been able to afford to.

And, our kids would have been just fine.

a lot better off than most Junkyard

So you'll be home educating then?

sanctimony become optional

[i]Let's get this straight, anecdotal evidence and small sample sizes is no good at all for deciding whether or not to wear a helmet, but for childcare it's fine? [/i]

good point, well made.

c_g - I think most parents in your position would have accepted the need for Mum/Dad to 'be there' and made changes necessary to achieve this. Fortunately most of us never meet that sort problem and don't have to. Everyone makes the decision that's right for them, I wouldn;t criticise any parent who chose to stay home (or any that chose to go to work).

[edit] junkyard - I was just wondering why being just over 4 meant that suddenly handing your kids over to someone else was ok, really? and fwiw there is a national curriculum for under 4's that all pre-school child carers have to adhere to so they are educating children too - does that make it better?

Anyone in here passing judgement on other people's life choices in such a grey-shaded area should not presume so much. Many choices are not free, some will be the greater of two evils, others might be obvious to one but not another.

And being rude about someone's take on parenting based on their child care arrangements is particularly unpleasant.

I recommend moving to more fruitful but benign ground - like helmets and the national deficit.

So, to summarise, I did what was best for my kids.

That's the key. Regardless of working / non working, it's parents who try to do the right thing for their kids who succeed, how they go about it is a matter for them. The only kids I know who have problems are due to poor parenting, nothing to do with what career choices have been made.

Yes molgrips they have thought lets have a kid but lets not look after it ourself I say nothing but nothing is more importnat than bringing up your kids.

I'm sure that you know 100% of bugger all about the OP's decisions and situation. I'm also pretty sure that they are sick to death of being judged and preached at by total strangers who have nothing better to do than spout some offensive crap accusing them of being poor parents.

Really - sometimes it's better to shut the F up. Stop typing, walk away from the thread. You're not making it nice.

Guys - I clearly said -

While its a small sample statistically

Nor did I

claim that all the children will have "issues" -

I said that of the families [b]I know[/b] the ones where the parents have done the childcare the children and the nicest and best adjusted and where childcare was done outside the family the children have issues. I claimed no extrapolation from that. its purely an observation

geetee - I assume you would rather the situation was different - which is awful for you - you are one that has no choice and have my sympathy

I appreciate the sentiment but no, on reflection and being honest, I like things as they are.

I was actually out of work when my son was born, so I got to spend the fist six months of my life as a full time dad and that was just amazing, even if it was incredibly stressful at a few crucial points. But the experience of being around full time gave me a lot of insight.

Being a full time parent is incredibly hard work; I certainly wouldn't take the decision to give up work and be a full time dad lightly. But I would consider it. I think the wife however likes the fact that she has a job and therefore still has a lot of independence/self identity, which for a lot of people is one of the most important facets of work. It's quite amazing sometimes how much our sense of worth is tied up in our work.

But the biggest issue as far as I can see it what happens in the future. I'm genuinely worried about the pension time bomb we're all going to face and so see the need to work as being the need to avoid that massive black hole, rather than afford a big home and expensive cars now (BTW we don't have expensive cars!)

TJ, I honestly think the 'issues' are most likely you superimposing your political beliefs onto the field of childcare. If you haven't raised children yourself, and your anictotale evidence is 'unreliable' why are you posting?

[i]why are you posting? [/i]

I sometimes think it's because he can't not post, tbh.

Its a form of tourettes

Like a Peanut in a pint of lager, I see TJ's posts post-flounce have risen back to the pre-flounce level. Are we not due a re-flounce anytime soon and TJ's post count to plummet to the bottom of the lagery pint once more?

Out of interest, how many of you parents (who are posting) had parents who both worked?

Out of interest, how many of you parents (who are posting) had parents who both worked?

I was 19 when my mam went back to work. (I do have four younger brothers and sisters though.)

My mum went out to work when I was about 9 or 10 - my little sister was about 3.

My wife went back to work when our eldest was about 6 months old but took 2 years off when our second child was born (we were financially more secure by then).

[edit] she had had children every 18 months to 2 years in between me and my littlest sister so opportunities for work returning had been limited.

Anyone in here passing judgement on other people's life choices in such a grey-shaded area should not presume so much. Many choices are not free, some will be the greater of two evils, others might be obvious to one but not another.

And being rude about someone's take on parenting based on their child care arrangements is particularly unpleasant.

I was just being unpleasant to geetee because he really really pissed me off once. I wouldn't claim to know about his parenting abilities/situation.

I'm fairly sure though there are people out there who claim they are doing all sorts of things 'for their kids' who are actually doing them for themselves. I struggle to understand the motivation of some people to have kids who then get rid of them as much as possible.

I think a lot of people get trapped into believing that their lifestyle outgoings are essentials. I don't have any 'evidence' for this other than observations.

Think my mum went back to work when I was 8(ish). I was to busy building go-karts and making model planes to notice 🙂