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This got posted on a forum where I live (fishing town). I find the term massively offensive, historically inaccurate and racist.
Am I snowflake or justified in asking for the poster to be banned?
Yet you've repeated it. 😕
‘Historically inaccurate’?
Explain please.
If you’re offended then kick off like everyone else does.
Neither. A better use of your time would be to understand why people create scapegoats to cover up the shortcomings of their own decisions.
This got posted on a forum where I live (fishing town)
Hartlepool?
‘Historically inaccurate’?
Explain please.
"France has one of the best military records by country, and they have taken part in more wars than any other country in the world. Out of 168 battles fought since 387 BC, France has won 109, lost 49 and drawn 10."
Snowflake
It's from The Simpsons.
Suggest to those people that they go on a tour of France only visiting French military cemeteries from the 1st and 2nd 20th century European wars. And maybe go to the German war graves in France as well.
Then ask them what they think.
I'd ignore it and move on with your life. There's an interesting thread about supermarket black pudding that's worth checking out.
Are you really offended or just trying to get a “discussion” going? Pre-trolling?
Hartlepool?
Made me laugh! 🐒
Sadly, lazily insulting the French will become more and more common form here on. What I really fear is that anti-Irish sentiment will also begin to grow after the anti-French stuff has fulfilled its purpose as the scapegoating and distraction tactic of choice in England.
It’s from The Simpsons.
Yup, in an example of gross ingratitude.
If it wasn't for the French Americans would be speaking British English today :
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/how-france-helped-win-american-revolution
France provided the money, troops, armament, military leadership, and naval support that tipped the balance of military power in favor of the United States and paved the way for the Continental Army’s ultimate victory, which was sealed at Yorktown, VA, five years after Franklin embarked on his mission.
When British Gen. Charles Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown on Oct. 19, 1781, his vanquished troops marched through a corridor formed by the victorious forces. On one side were the Americans; on the other side stood the French – a scene that mirrored how critical France’s support had been.
Anti-Irish sentiment has never really gone away.
Of course not, but it could grow. I fear it might become useful to encourage that, just as it is useful to encourage the anti-French stuff to grow now. And the effects could be worse than the anti-French, er, Renaissance, that is building now.
Significantly less accurate statement than Perfidious Albion.
Oh, importantly, in the Simpson’s episode, its a Brit using the term, not an American.
Biden alluded to the debt the USA has to France only this week.
Was it not French soldiers that fought off the Germans whilst the evacuation at Dunkirk was ongoing ?
Oh, importantly, in the Simpson’s episode, it’s a Brit using the term, not an American.
Also important to note is that in the run-up to the second gulf war anti-French feelings were running very high in the United States, certainly higher than in the UK.
Based on the fact that the French President at the time, despite being a crook, was aware of how horrific war is, unlike the US neo-con chicken hawks.
Lets not let the truth get in the way of some Euro-bashing.
Oh, importantly, in the Simpson’s episode, its a Scot using the term, not an American.
It was Groundskeeper Willie.
If that’s as bad as it gets… you’re lucky.
You couldn’t be that arsed to use it as your topic title.
Note the poignant date.
https://www.newsweek.com/britain-produces-more-cheese-france-484465?amp=1
Be careful when throwing rocks in glasshouses.
As for surrender - I can’t think of a word that better defines brexit.
It’s from The Simpsons.
I was racking my brain trying to think where I’d heard that. Had it down as a John Cleese thing.
From that story…
Over 750 different cheeses are produced in Britain today
How many of those are polluted with cranberries or apricot?
Also important to note is that in the run-up to the second gulf war anti-French feelings were running very high in the United States, certainly higher than in the UK.
I don’t think the Simpsons episode comes from that period at all.
It was Groundskeeper Willie.
It was!
The term isn't "cheese producing surrender monkeys"
The French consume more cheese than any other nation on Earth.
Having worked very closely with a team in France for the last 20 years they thought CESM was quite funny
The French consume more cheese than any other nation on Earth.
Is that not the USA?
EDIT: ah, you probably mean per a head, not the nation as a whole
I don’t think the Simpsons episode comes from that period at all.
No you're right, 1995. The term however came to prominence in the United States in the run-up to the second gulf war.
Anti-French feelings were running high. It was a time when french fries were renamed freedom fries, because apparently that would hurt the French.
Is that not the USA?
Per capita.
Is that not the USA?
The majority of “cheese” in the USA is not cheese. God knows what it is. But it’s not cheese.
Grounds keeper Wullie was clearly a traitor to the auld alliance.
Per capita.
Factoid to go to bed on…
The countries with the highest levels of cheese per capita consumption in 2019 were the Czech Republic (64 kg per person), Germany (37 kg per person) and France (25 kg per person).
…happy cheese dreams.
But it’s not cheese
The USA consumes a quarter of the world’s actual cheese. That’s not including all their “cheese flavoured” stuff, or their “contains real cheese” not real cheese.
What's your sauce?
Edit : Whatever it is it's more recent than mine. Britian still doesn't figure though.
Blessed are the cheese makers anyway.
I was surprised as well. Things have changed considerably since your 2014 story.
From 2013 to 2019, the most notable rate of growth in terms of cheese per capita consumption, amongst the main consuming countries, was attained by the Czech Republic, while cheese per capita consumption for the other global leaders experienced more modest paces of growth.
The French consume more cheese than any other nation on Earth.
Not per capita (which seems like a reasonable way to measure it) they don’t - admittedly 2017 figures and you may have more recent ones.
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-who-consume-the-most-cheese.html
If you want to do it by total consumption, then given population size I think the US eats 2-3 times as much cheese as France.
But you can dredge up internet “facts” and stats to support anything (or at least I can).
Edit - far, far too slow. Anyone who knows me in real life may know what my wife does for a living and would find this argument about cheese production (or dairy generally) very funny.
Anyway having established that the Americans eat more cheese than anyone else, when was the last time they won a war without someone else's help?
Never?
Anyway, I’m reminded that I’m trying to eat less cheese, so need to stop talking about it before I’m drawn to the fridge. Night, night.
And to be fair, the French do make/eat some very good cheese.
@kelvin - my wife would be able to explain to you why good cheese is very good for you. Only good cheese if I recall.
Americans and wars - 1776ish springs to mind… or were they helped out by the French?
I thought it was Donald Rumsfeld who used the phrase in 2002/3 but if the Simpsons were using it in 1995 maybe he was just quoting them, I never knew that.
I’d ignore it and move on with your life.
This.
I quite like the fact the thread has degenerated into a discussion on global cheese consumption. More interesting than the OP.
It's definitely Groundskeeper Willie, a scot, voiced by an American.
But importantly, the context it's shown in is one of how inappropriate a French teacher he is because he'd use a phrase like that.
That it has been adopted by knuckle draggers as an actual insult is somewhat ironic
The phrase predates the Simpsons by 20 years, certainly used when I was at school.
Offensive? To me it's too ridiculous and contrived to be offensive, but who am I to judge how others should feel.
As for the wider political issues - aiui fishing rights are governed by international treaties and laws, so I'm behind the curve as to how the UK or France can be disputing all this. You either have the right and/or license to fish somewhere or you don't. It "should" be Black and white clearcut?
I am not offended and i love cheese. I live less than 20km from where Roquefort is made and get to eat lots of it.
What has BenjiM got to say about all this surrendering?
The monkey part has definitely connotations.
Tbh it's more of an embarrassing trope, at least the French make a stand on stuff, we attempt that in this country and a selfish, entitled boot tries to run you over in a PCP weapon.
There's cheese, and then there's plastic imitation yellow stuff.
I bet if they looked at real cheese consumption, the figures would radically alter.
Nothing wrong with eating loads of real cheese. Or baguettes. Nothing wrong with being unable to mak headway in illegal, ill-conceived wars either.
But BO and difficulties maintaining monogamy in marriage might be more of a realistic target. Or burning sheep on the docks and kidnapping the driver from the company next door, tying him up, driving him around for 5.5hrs and then kicking him out the rear doors still trussed up. Encule de francaise!
PS. 4 generations back there was an Englishman, Irishman, Scotsman, Welshman and a frog in my family. I'm sure this is just self-deprecating humour.
Rather than any knuckle draggers thinking it might come from the Simpsons - I remember it getting a new lease of life after Jeremy Clarkson saying it on Top Gear
Not usually bothered, and not at all in the context of this thread. You have to use both "cheese eating" and "surrender monkeys" parts together though, "surrender monkeys" on its own is best avoided. STW has become less xenophobic over the years IME, the Brexit saga accelerated the trend with some of the anti-foreigner types vanishing.
However Ernie calling Jacques Chirac a "crook" deserves a response: If you call the guy who did what he could to stop Gulf war II, and denounced Bush and Blair's war as a religiously justified crusade, how do you qualify Blair? Or any UK PM of the last 70 years? No need for cheap shots, especially when his crimes were abuse of privilege that were small fry compared with what UK cabinet ministers routinely get up to with impunity. Check out the "crimes" of Chirac and Sarko, they are business as usual in the UK. The fact they are "crimes" is perhaps something to aspire to. How much did the recent election campaigns cost the Conservative party? Now compare that with Sarko's over-spending fraud.
Cheese? There's a fromage de brebis from the Basque country on my plate, a Fourme d'Ambert and some Emmental in the fridge. I like a mature Cheddar too but there hasn't been any in local supermarkets since January.
Was it not French soldiers that fought off the Germans whilst the evacuation at Dunkirk was ongoing ?
Depends, If you're talking about the immediate defence of Dunkirk, to allow the evacuation (Operation Dynamo) to happen; then no, that was mostly II corps and III corps (led by Alan Brook, and Bernard Montgomery) but after most of the British and the French that wanted to be, had been evacuated many of the remaining French units carried on fighting, and especially after the re-landing of the 2nd BEF (mostly 52nd Highland and Canadian troops and returning French troops; Operation Cycle ) at LeHavre in June failed, the remaining fighting in France was mostly French units until they were pushed back into Brittany and ultimately surrendered.
EDIT: 10 nerd points to Gryffendor
Actually offended or choosing to be offended?
However Ernie calling Jacques Chirac a “crook” deserves a response
Whoa, I didn't judge him, a French court did.
As I pointed out earlier, despite being a crook he fully understood the horrors of war, having personally experienced combat.
He made a brave stand when he told George W Bush that going to war wasn't a game, after Bush said "the game's over". And he publicly asked Tony Blair how he would justify war to his children, he seemed to be under the false impression that he could appeal to Blair's humanity.
It is a damning indictment that despite being a crook Jacque Chirac was a better human being than George Bush or Tony Blair. Although to be fair George Bush appears to have shown some contrition for his role in bringing war, death, and misery, to the Middle East, Blair clearly feels none.
I like a mature Cheddar too but there hasn’t been any in local supermarkets since January.
Ah well, Comté it is then. French world problems.
🧀🧀🧀 (not right, more Emmental-ish - someone find me a Comté emoji)
On that basis you're going to have think of a cheap shot qulaifier for every politician or I'll comsider it anti-French discrimination, Ernie. You don't say "war criminal" Blair or "alcoholic" George W Bush.
You're one of the very few regulars who still take cheap shots at the French (or any other nationality) and are the only one I noticed reading through this thread.
...must be time for the traditional mid thread argument...
I just find the term offensive and I'm not French or simian but I do like cheese...
Semi-evolved simian
Your application is under review, in the meantime may I suggest you subscribe to the guardian, develop a passable lisp and concentrate on a constant, contrived outrage.
Wtf is wrong with you Ed?
Your application is under review, in the meantime may I suggest you subscribe to the guardian, develop a passable lisp and concentrate on a constant, contrived outrage.
If that's for me, it's a wet n windy day so time on my hands. I'll use it wisely and do as you suggest. Every day's a training day... 🙃
Seems to ignore the effective surrender we've just witnessed in Afghanistan by the US and Nato. Iraq was not exactly a walk in the park. What does that make us? War is harder than it looks in the films, who knew?
You’re one of the very few regulars who still take cheap shots at the French
You do realise don’t you that there’s an enormous difference between criticising a government and the people who are governed by them? I’m currently at a family gathering and half of us are french citizens yet strangely the subject of brexit, fishing rights or historic warmongering hasn’t really come up. 🤷♀️
Seems to ignore the effective surrender we’ve just witnessed in Afghanistan by the US and Nato.
It was the Afghans who surrendered. The U.S. and Nato troops evacuated in airplanes.
Wtf is wrong with you Ed?
As usual you seem to be unaware of the fact that your posting is once again stereotying and xenophobic. Everyone else on the thread has managed to express an opinon without anything factually wrong (the amount of cheese eaten) insulting or discriminatory. You made your opinion of Americans in general and a French politician abundantly clear in provocative terms:
Based on the fact that the French President at the time, despite being a crook, was aware of how horrific war is, unlike the US neo-con chicken hawks.
It's a thread about a potentially offensive expression. You provoked with a potentially offensive xenophobic sentence, I'm responding. 🙂
It's all about who says what in a particular context, if Clarkson talks about a slant on a bridge I'm not surprised to see an asian walking across it. If anybody else talks about a slant on bridge I expect to see the bridge is slopin to one side. You posted ture to form, so have I.
Have a good day, I'm off for a walk.
It’s a thread about a potentially offensive expression.
No it's not, it's yet another thread about desperately looking for something to pretend to be offended about.
Ed you are really not the full ticket mate. Throughout this thread I have repeatedly defended the French, from copying and pasting the QI factoid about the French having a better military record than any nation on Earth, to pointing out how France help the US fight for its independence, to the moral stance France took in Gulf War 2.
You also know that I was born in France, hold French nationality, and did my military service in the French armed forces.
Yet despite all that you are determined to be offended, accuse me of being a racist, and launch into your usual protracted personal attacks.
This had been a fairly light-hearted thread mostly about cheese eating, shame you had to wade in and change the tone Ed, before going off on your walk
64kg of cheese per person? Over a kilo a week? Blimey.
64kg of cheese per person? Over a kilo a week? Blimey.
I think Britain makes better cheese than anyone including the French 😕
Cornish Yarg Yum 😀
Britain does indeed produce many excellent cheeses. France also produces many excellent but different cheeses.
I think Britain makes better cheese than anyone including the French
That would have sounded slightly less little England if it had read '...I think Britain makes cheese as good as anyone including the French'. Unless you've tried all cheeses from all countries of the world of course...
Pedantic? Certainly but a bit less Ingerlaaand... 🙃
my wife would be able to explain to you why good cheese is very good for you. Only good cheese if I recall
That sounds like information I need in my life @igm … please share.
Over a kilo a week? Blimey.
Not been over there for years, but I’ll take a stab at how they got there over the last decade… they’ve probably kept their beer cheese tradition alive (snack on beery cheese with your beer and pretzels… mmmm), and kept it in their main meals, and adopted the “cheese for breakfast” approach of neighbouring countries. Sounds like they need to rein it in a bit now. As long as they keep the beer cheese… mmmm.
I want cheese again now.
I think Britain makes cheese as good as anyone including the French
Yes, fair do's.
Bah, just found out that the great institution of beer cheese (mmm) is originally Bavarian, not Czech. So all their cheese addition is arguably the fault of neighbours. Beer cheese… mmm…
I've Comte, Keen's and a French blue (usually St Auger? but didn't have any this week)in the fridge. It's not either/or it's both.
NB who'd have guessed the flatlands of Lincolnshire would produce a Swiss mountain cheese (poacher)?
It’s damn good as well. Lots of good UK produced comté type cheeses now as well. Not cheap mind.
If a similar slur was made about Israel/Jews the thread would be closed down ASAP
Not sure how you infer that from this 😕 Is there an Israeli/Palestinian cheese industry friction I am unaware of ?.
Sheesh(pun)
here's a couple...
of surrender monkeys, don't know about their penchant for cheese.
Back from walk and swim to another petty insult from you, Ernie:
Ed you are really not the full ticket mate
We all have an excellent passive vocabulary of insults we could use, but people generally don't. I can think of at least one and usually a few for most nationalities but they're passive vocabubulary that was left behind in the school playground or withdrawn from use sometime later. On this forum very few people use personal insults. You do and Molgrips recently called me a bell-end. He's very fond of insults based on male genitals for insult.
If you talk about the Bush administration or Americans in general as "US neo-con chicken hawks" you inform people of your prejudices. Call someone "mate" in a contrived insult and it demonstrates you contempt for them.
Incidentally being born in France and having to do national service doesn't tell me anything about your attitude to France or your experience of it. Your parents could have left France when you were a week old and you'd have still had to do national service. You are very guarded about any aspect of your French life other than being born there and doing national service. You are as likely to have a grudge against France for having to do national service as it being an enjoyable experience you are proud of. Fact is you show no love for the country on this forum.
Okay Ed, all your points are noted. No need to expand anymore. You are a great guy without any issues, my mistake. I apologise for insulting you.
Have you got any opinions on cheese eating?