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Don’t you dare tell me I should ‘grow up’.
Wasn't directed at you (or anyone) specifically. I did say "as a society" in that very bit you just quoted.
Unless you mean you're a grown adult and you can't cope with seeing another adult naked?
Oh, that’s easy then. They have the right to say whatever they want, so long as they’re not inciting hate. I respect their right to say she’s a cheese sandwich if they so choose.
It’s acting on it that’s a bit more problematic. If they said she was a cheese sandwich and then stuffed her in a toaster oven, for instance.
This has been a fairly serious thread discussing some extremely sensitive issues, why have you now at this point in the conversation started to make such flippant nonsensical comments?
If asked the question "Should the right of transwomen to say they are women, be respected?", you would not reply "I respect their right to say she’s a cheese sandwich if they so choose."
So what is it about black people that allows you to be so dismissive of the rejection by many/most of them of Rachel Dolezal's self identification as black?
Moreover, is Rachel Dolezal black?
why have you now at this point in the conversation started to make such flippant nonsensical comments?
Don't you read much of what I write generally?
I was giving you a lighthearted example to demonstrate that they have a right to call her what they like, and also that there's a difference between respecting someone's opinions and respecting their right to have them. Someone famous said something famous about this once.
If asked the question “Should the right of transwomen to say they are women, be respected?”, you would not reply “I respect their right to say she’s a cheese sandwich if they so choose.”
Sure I would. It's the same question only with different nouns (and broken pronouns). That was kind of the point.
So what is it about black people that allows you to be so dismissive of the rejection by many/most of them of Rachel Dolezal’s self identification as black?
Damned if I know, it's your analogy and it's kind of hard to follow what you're actually asking.
Moreover, is Rachel Dolezal black?
As I said earlier, I've no idea who she is.
I went in the loo in the Manchester Art Gallery last week and there were two young trans people in there, one in the trap and one waiting for them and presumably chatting. I did feel a bit uncomfortable and made an effort not to flash and I managed to restrain myself from saying 'that's what girls do'.
I put a lot of this calling out as emanating from postmodernist intersectional feminism, it sees shouting and screaming at people as a legitimate political engagement. More alienation than persuasion results from that. Who have I offended now?
Great thread this, very STW.
On the one hand there are people trying to explain and to understand various view points surrounding the issue. Its quite interesting to someone who knows bugger all about it.
On the other hand there are a couple of people who come across as just wanting to draw lines, pick sides and have a fight. You can almost smell the testosterone.
Kind of funny really
You have offended those that get offended. What it seems to me is, there is a group of people in society who like to look for things to get upset and rowdy about, even if its nothing to do with them or affects their views or beliefs.
Moreover, is Rachel Dolezal black?
So, I Googled her briefly out of curiosity.
"She was president of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) chapter in Spokane, Washington, from 2014 until June 15, 2015, when she resigned after it was revealed that she had lied about being black, many other aspects of her biography, and about alleged hate crimes against her.
...
In June 2015, Dolezal came to media attention when her European American parents stated publicly that Dolezal was a white woman passing as black."
So it would appear that no, she isn't black, and the circumstances around her leaving NAACP wasn't because
black Americans decided that they could not accept that Rachel Dolezal was black and forced her to step down from her position in the NAACP.
after all.
On the other hand there are a couple of people who come across as just wanting to draw lines, pick sides and have a fight. You can almost smell the testosterone.
Pretty much. Oh well. Abandon thread I guess.
On the one hand there are people trying to explain and to understand various view points surrounding the issue. Its quite interesting to someone who knows bugger all about it.
On the other hand there are a couple of people who come across as just wanting to draw lines, pick sides and have a fight. You can almost smell the testosterone.
You missed "people dropping into random threads to complain whilst making no useful contribution to the discussion whatsoever." How very STW.
You can almost smell the testosterone.
Almost. It's subtly masked by expensive French perfume.
Argumentive mods hey, makes you think...
So it would appear that no, she isn’t black,
No Cougar - it hits at the heart of the issue, Rachael Dolezal self identifies as being non-white, regardless of biological factors and believes that you ought to be able to choose your racial identity in the same way that (it is argued) you can with gender:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-43330999
I Googled her briefly out of curiosity.
Cougar, thank you for doing that and thank you for the reply.
With regard to the point that "she had lied about being black" and your answer that "it would appear that no, she isn’t black", she herself identified as black, and ergo did not consider that she lied about being black. The assertion that she lied was presumably the NAACP's. Her case has some interesting parallels with the trans rights issues.
You say "it would appear that no, she isn’t black", which says that you either have some criteria of your own about how you define a black person, or you accept some other (possibly vague or possibly quite scientifically precise) definition from an external source, e.g. the definition of the NAACP itself implicit in its judgement, general opinions voiced by commentators in the media, or your friends/acquaintances (some of whom might themselves be black and whose opinion on this issue you might particularly respect). A scientific definition would probably be based on DNA/genealogy, and although that might be far less binary than male XY/female XX chromosomes given the potential for mixed parentage/grandparentage etc., in Rachel Dolezal's case she had two white parents with solely white ancestry.
Which brings us to the question "If you consider that Rachel Dolezal is not black, then by what criteria do you consider that transwomen are women?"
I'm pretty sure there is no scientific definition of race.
(Those DNA kits are nonsense btw)
You say “it would appear that no, she isn’t black”, which says that you either have some criteria of your own about how you define a black person, or you accept some other (possibly vague or possibly quite scientifically precise) definition from an external source,
I do. It's in my post. ICYMI:
In June 2015, Dolezal came to media attention when her European American parents stated publicly that Dolezal was a white woman passing as black.”
I imagine her parents would have some idea.
it hits at the heart of the issue, Rachael Dolezal self identifies as being non-white, regardless of biological factors and believes that you ought to be able to choose your racial identity in the same way that (it is argued) you can with gender:
Ah, now that is interesting, I missed that. I'll reply shortly (I'm just about to leave work).
Argumentive mods hey, makes you think…
Ah, old chestnuts. As far as a discussion goes I'm a regular forum user. Thanks for the cheap shot though, don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way back out.
[i]Cougar wrote:[/i]
In June 2015, Dolezal came to media attention when her European American parents stated publicly that Dolezal was a white woman passing as black.”
I imagine her parents would have some idea.
In the same way the parents of some people who are now women remember giving birth to a boy?
I’m pretty sure there is no scientific definition of race.
there is - humans are a race. The fact that someone is black or white is irrelevant
In the same way the parents of some people who are now women remember giving birth to a boy?
Do two white parents often give birth to black babies, then?
" As far as a discussion goes I’m a regular forum user". Or "I think I’m going to close this one shortly".which one hey? makes you think...
And opens up a lot of problems for females who, let’s be honest, use toilets for a wider range of things than males.
We've recently gone gender neutral with the bogs at work. Had to get some extra hygiene bins for the ones that were formerly boys only. The cost was a lot less than replacing all the bloody toilet seats with brightly coloured ones to be dementia friendly (and the signage.. and the lighting...and the light switches... i'm telling you, having trans-friendly facilities seems a lot easier than becoming dementia friendly).
So what happens when a woman needs a good cry? Where exactly can she go to guarantee not being laughed at or talked about?
” As far as a discussion goes I’m a regular forum user”. Or “I think I’m going to close this one shortly”.which one hey? makes you think…
Can you genuinely not tell the difference between comments like that and me taking part in an active discussion, or are you just being obtuse in order to have a(nother) pop at me?
Cougar
Do two white parents often give birth to black babies, then?
Do women often have penises? FYI black parents can have a white child and vice versa but it's rare.
Poah
there is – humans are a race. The fact that someone is black or white is irrelevant
Only someone with who can't see passed his white privilege could say something so bigoted.
So what happens when a woman needs a good cry? Where exactly can she go to guarantee not being laughed at or talked about?
Not Bob Marley’s house, that’s for sure.
So what happens when a woman needs a good cry? Where exactly can she go to guarantee not being laughed at or talked about?
Do women who have lived with that identity since birth not laugh at or talk about each other then? You could have fooled me...
This post from mumsnet (now locked as started by a troll) is worth a read
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3206069-another-trans-thread?pg=1&order
so couger your the only one to have the right(coming and going it seems) to point out hypocrisy.your an sjw snowflake, and I claim my £5. ps, explain "another"...
Have you been drinking?
With all the chat having swept onto the topic of race rather than willies, has anyone read 'The Human Stain'. I'd stick to willies, that's one heavy book.
Incidentally, that lady (who I've never heard of) looks a bit Spanishy to me.
In a February 2017 interview with The Guardian, Dolezal said that she sees race as a social construct. At Howard, she was introduced to the theory that racial identity had been devised in colonial times as a method of control. She embraced this concept wholeheartedly after her divorce, and decided to "flee from feeling like I had to do things in a way that was acceptable to other people." Soon afterward, she began sunbathing to darken her skin, applying bronzers to maintain the look. She also began wearing her hair in dreadlocks and weaves, and checked the box for "black" or "African American" on employment and medical history forms.[32] According to her adoptive brother, Ezra, Rachel began changing her appearance as early as 2009, when she began using hair products that she'd seen Ezra's biological sister use. She began darkening her skin and perming her hair sometime around 2011. When Ezra moved in with Rachel in 2012, she told him that Spokane-area residents knew her as black, and warned him, "Don't blow my cover." Ezra believed that Rachel was essentially putting on "blackface" by changing her appearance.
She sounds mentally disturbed to me
Only someone with who can’t see passed his white privilege could say something so bigoted.
What drugs are you on? Wtf is my white privileged and look up the meaning of the word bigoted. You clearly don’t have any clue as to what “race” actually means.
Humans belong to the species homo saipiens there isn’t any sub-species or races within that classification therefore we are all the one “race”.
She sounds mentally disturbed to me
-
You can almost smell the testosterone.
Almost. It’s subtly masked by expensive French perfume.
Somafunk and Perchy, a word of well intentioned friendly advice from someone whose fingers have been charred: Be very careful what you say on these subjects.
I’m prepared to take my chances
That’s the difference, though. Perchypanther’s comments are a bit childish, and this is STW after all, but they appear to be harmless and without malice. Your comments, slowster, certainly upset me far more.
Rachel
Humans belong to the species homo saipiens (sp) there isn’t any sub-species or races within that classification
Point of order...that's not quite historically accurate, otherwise, as you were
Mind you, I must admit to preferring single sex toilets where available anyway – mainly because I feel more safe. (But also because gents loos kinda stink)
Place I used to work at had to post up a notice after a member of staff deliberately fouled the female loo, to the extent the cleaner refused to go in and clean them. Stinky loos is not an exclusively male preserve, it appears.
Only someone with who can’t see passed his white privilege could say something so bigoted.
I guess you missed all the recent news items about the remains found in the caves at Cheddar which shows that inhabitants of these islands after the last ice age had black skin. They also apparently had green or blue eyes. Direct descendants of those same humans, and there is one man who’s DNA is directly connected, have white skin. The only difference is the need for the body to produce more vitamin D due to weaker sunlight, so less melanin is produced. This effectively proves that race is nothing to do with skin colour, all humans are one race; the only difference is in ethnicity.
Perchypanther’s comments are a bit childish
Just a bit?
I’m slipping
perchypanther
Member
Perchypanther’s comments are a bit childishJust a bit?
I’m slipping
You’ll have to work harder, or there’s no pudding!
Fascinating thread - thank you. I've learned a lot about an important topic I knew nothing about.
Your comments, slowster, certainly upset me far more.
Rachel, I have apologised for what I said. The thread has moved on, but I think that the perception of me/what I posted previously would distract from the substance of any further posts I might make, so under the circumstances I will not post any further on this thread.
there is – humans are a race. The fact that someone is black or white is irrelevant
You racist, you. 😀
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/dani-bostick/how-colorblindness-is-act_b_10886176.html
It's saying something when Ninfan appears to be more progressive than the rest of you.
therefore we are all the one “race”
And yet there is racism. Denying that race - or sex - matters doesn't help the victims of racism or sexism, it merely justifies the removal of protection against such discrimination.
And yet there is racism. Denying that race – or sex – matters doesn’t help the victims of racism or sexism, it merely justifies the removal of protection against such discrimination
people are morons though which is why there is that protection. I don't care if you are black, white, yellow, have sexual organs on the inside or think that a god(s) made the universe.
Point of order…that’s not quite historically accurate, otherwise, as you were
? we belong to the family Hominidae, Genus Homo, Species H. sapiens There are no subspecies within that group.
English is a wonderful language. It is just possible that words can have more than one meaning, depending on context...
Genus Homo
this is the bit that makes us Human Beings, there are at least 2 archaic sub-species of Sap. Racist 🙂
this is the bit that makes us Human Beings, there are at least 2 archaic sub-species of Sap
nothing concreate to suggest H.ss or H.si are a subspecies of h.s. However, given they are extinct the point is moot
I'm not an anthropologist so don't have to deal with these taxonomy issues.
Poah
And yet there is racism. Denying that race – or sex – matters doesn’t help the victims of racism or sexism, it merely justifies the removal of protection against such discrimination
people are morons though which is why there is that protection. I don’t care if....
So since we're all one race there's absolutely no reason why Rachel Dolezal can't identify as black right? In fact anyone could be able to identify as any race, ethnicity or culture they desire regardless of parentage or genetics. The downside might be if people born to white parents start to use their black identity as a means to sue for racial discrimination, just for example.
By insisting there's no such thing as race you're negating protections afforded to actual racial or ethnic minorities against discrimination. At best you're just swapping "racists" for ethnicists which is a difference without a distinction.
By removing race you make all distinctions cultural, therefore any cultural distinction becomes racist.
So since we’re all one race there’s absolutely no reason why Rachel Dolezal can’t identify as black right? In fact anyone could be able to identify as any race, ethnicity or culture they desire regardless of parentage or genetics. The downside might be if people born to white parents start to use their black identity as a means to sue for racial discrimination, just for example.
By insisting there’s no such thing as race you’re negating protections afforded to actual racial or ethnic minorities against discrimination. At best you’re just swapping “racists” for ethnicists which is a difference without a distinction.
By removing race you make all distinctions cultural, therefore any cultural distinction becomes racist.
do you need some TP for all that verbal diarrhoea? difference between me and a black person is that their skin makes more melanin than mine. The colour of your skin has bugger all to do with cultural background. My mum had blond hair, blue eyes and pale skin but her cultural background is Indian as she was born and brought up in Calcutta. Saying there is no such thing as race I am equalising everybody, if you put people in to races you are making them different when they are not.
poah
difference between me and a black person is that their skin makes more melanin than mine.
That sounds pretty racist. I thought you said we we all one race, now you're saying there are differences. What determines these differences?
The colour of your skin has bugger all to do with cultural background.
So if Rachel Dolezal identifies as black she's black and it was racist of the National Association for the advancement of people of colour to sack her on racial grounds. Correct?
Saying there is no such thing as race I am equalising everybody, if you put people in to races you are making them different when they are not.
Amazing. Well done equalising everyone. Congratulations. What were you saying about diarrhoea again?
Saying there is no such thing as race I am equalising everybody, if you put people in to races you are making them different when they are not.
Brilliant - you appear to have solved discrimination of people on the basis of skin colour or cultural background in one fell swoop by eliminating the concept of race. Where should we post your Nobel prize?
Saying there is no such thing as race I am equalising everybody
No you're just denying victims of racism the language they need to describe - and challenge - their oppression