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It would appear this forum has been taken over by chinese style authoritarians who decide what we should be allowed to think and talk about. It's very sad. Honestly one of the main problems with 'the situation' is the self-censorship of the media and politicians in obstructing and dismissing honest and objective discussion. it's shocking quite frankly and not something I expected here.
Disappointed 🙁
and he is still the best English player I ever saw......
Perhaps if people self-censored a bit there wouldn't be a need for censorship.
There's arguing an objective case based on say UN resolutions and there's what's been censored.
There's the legal aspect too, some of the posts were plain illegal and this is a public forum.
‘Honest and objective discussion?’ Are you new here? (I know you’re not Daz)...
Thought this was going to be about the BBC censoring Ru Paul's Prince Andrew jokes... 🙄
This is a mountain biking forum run by a magazine - keep some perspective!
Indeed.
+1.
^^ What hels said.
Pop over to Reddit if you want to vent.
.
This is a mountain biking forum run by a magazine – keep some perspective!
+1
That thread was just going to descend into abuse in under 30 minutes as has every other thread on here on the same subject. Right decision to close it IMHO.
some of the posts were plain illegal
Ah yes, falling foul of the Critism of Israel Act must be a worry.
...this forum has been taken over by chinese style authoritarians
Why the dig at the Chinese? People of Chinese heritage are constantly facing discrimination and hate crimes, there is no need to feed this toxic climate with sweeping unfounded comments like that.
it’s shocking quite frankly and not something I expected here.
I totally expected it, If I was in their shoes, it's the call I would've made as well. Sure there's a place for discussion, but nothing's going to be achieved by a bunch of opinionated white middle aged men getting all hufty about it on a bike forum apart from handing out a bunch of bans
A quick glance at social media will tell you that there are too many people who cannot differentiate between someone who happens to be Jewish/Muslim/Chinese/etc and the actions of the nation state of Israel/ISIS/a plague that was first detected in Wuhan etc.
There are a number of twitter accounts amplifying holocaust denial and plain old racism on the pretext that Israel is doing bad things to Palestinians, so I can understand why the mods are choosing to close threads.
It's a bit of a shame. There are many topics where I regard STW as my primary news source (UK politics, Covid amongst them). Discussions that contain disagreement often tease out and explore views and facts the MSM either ignore or just don't have the time to fully report on.
Sure there’s a place for discussion, but nothing’s going to be achieved by a bunch of opinionated white middle aged men getting all hufty about it on a bike forum
Might as well close the chat FORUM
Another vote of support for the mods from me. It isn't a discussion that will ever enlighten anyone, and it's almost certain to include quite a lot of racist and/or illegal posts. Yes, it's an appalling situation, but no thread on here is going to help.
So, are we really not allowed to discuss whats going on in the Gaza strip on here? What have I missed here? Considering the mud slinging on many of the recent threads on here, I do find this current action somewhat disturbing.
Sure there’s a place for discussion, but
The problem is every time the subject comes up there is, predictably, the awkward people who won't blame the Palestinians.
If everyone just blamed the Palestinians I can't see that there would be a problem.
Might as well close the chat FORUM
I wonder how many times a day Mark thinks that..? 😉
Maybe they knew it would turn into a round and round competition of trying to prove who is more politically savvy than the others, I'm cleverer than you! I can type longer! I can do more embedded quotes! ad inifinitum until they had to close it anyway out of sheer boredom.
It’s a bit of a shame. There are many topics where I regard STW as my primary news source (UK politics, Covid amongst them). Discussions that contain disagreement often tease out and explore views and facts the MSM either ignore or just don’t have the time to fully report on.
Exactly my thoughts. I read a number of MSM papers, this forum can often provide other insights or views that I don’t read elsewhere. Yes, it’s unquestionably a contentious & uncomfortable issue to talk about - but shouldn’t we be able to cope with such things? Sometimes the only way you can deal with certain attitudes is to flush them out & challenge them. Having said that if the powers that be don’t wish for that to happen here then it’s up to them.
This is a mountain biking forum run by a magazine – keep some perspective!
Also the forum is largely kept running by volunteer moderators (who are actual people rather than bots) who probably have better things to do than spend all their time trawling one thread where every other post gets reported and the same old faces end up being banned.
Pop over to Reddit if you want to vent.
+1
Yes, it’s unquestionably a contentious & uncomfortable issue to talk about – but shouldn’t we be able to cope with such things?
The answer is obviously not, it's been done many times on here and always rapidly descends into name called / racist tropes. The same people are still here, nothing is going to change.
I've not had a coffee yet which is why I read that as
the same old feaces end up being banned.
Ernie nails it.
At the risk of putting words in Mark's mouth. I can totally see why they'd shut down a thread like that. One started off yesterday afternoon, and could imagine a conversation that probably went "I'm not going to spend my Thursday evening monitoring a thread about this issue", We'll just close it.
One of the reasons I haven't participated in any discussion of 'the situation' is that it's impossible to do so from one particular side (you can probably guess which) without being accused of being a racist. Some say people should exercise 'self-censorship', but what they really mean is they shouldn't be allowed to voice a particular opinion. It's simple culture-war politics and preventing discussion because 'it offends' only feeds into that and promotes it. It's ironic that this place used to have a policy of no links to the Daily Mail, but then indulges in the same sort of intolerance of diverse opinions that the Mail and other tabloids are renowned for.
I'm curious, what other subjects are banned?
and he is still the best English player I ever saw……
He was. Most talented toon player in history. The only person to ever get near him in terms of talent and flare was Hatem Ben-Arfa.
Ernie thinks he's being clever by finding a way to express what he thinks without getting the thread closed or a ban. And therin lies the problem.
Ah yes, falling foul of the Critism of Israel Act must be a worry.
Ernie thinks he’s being clever by finding a way to express what he thinks without getting the thread closed or a ban. And therin lies the problem.
this is not the only thread where ernie demonstrates his ability to be bit of a dick
This is a mountain biking forum run by a magazine – keep some perspective!
That si one of the wisest statements I have read on here in a long time.
but nothing’s going to be achieved by a bunch of opinionated white middle aged men getting all hufty about it on a bike forum
yet we still try.
It’s a not dissimilar situation to Trump complaining about being ‘censored’ on FB & Twitter. It’s their train set & their rules..
I prefer though, for attitudes to be aired & examined than driven underground where they can fester unchallenged. A tricky one - give something the O2 of publicity or starve it of exposure in the hope it goes away?
Personally, I would like a wee explanation of why threads are closed, as a final post.
give something the O2 of publicity or starve it of exposure in the hope it goes away?
Like the opinions of people who think it's wrong to slaughter civilians with a massive mechanised death machine, or keep them locked inside an open air prison?
Anyway, I'm saying nothing more. I have huge empathy for Mark et al who have the difficult job of trying to keep this place in order, but as with everything in life the best policy is to try to treat people like adults and encourage them to act like that. These things are often self-fulfilling.
A quick explanation from the mods wouldn't go amiss, however (with reasons properly explained) I think it's a fair call to close them. Probably worth the forum rules being a bit more explicit if that is going to be the case moving forward.
I think @nickc summed it up perfectly:
nothing’s going to be achieved by a bunch of opinionated white middle aged men getting all hufty about it on a bike forum
Like the opinions of people who think it’s wrong to slaughter civilians with a massive mechanised death machine, or keep them locked inside an open air prison?
Putting words in my mouth - nice.
I’m not being drawn into stating my opinion on Gaza as I don’t fully understand it but I do like to hear others views - so crack on..
Given there's only one public mod left I think explanations being posted is unlikely.
There are many topics where I regard STW as my primary news source
Hahahahaha!!!!! You’re kidding right? Couldn’t be more liberal biased on here if you tried.
The Covid thread has been the best single source of information on the topic from a few weeks into the pandemic.
keep some perspective!
Some automation should be added so every 5th post states that to remind people
Putting words in my mouth
No it's just a general observation of the reality of censorship of this particular subject.
The Covid thread has been the best single source of information on the topic from a few weeks into the pandemic.
Without question - thank you TiRed.
Agree there should have been a mod post about the decision to ban any discussion of the situation. Perhaps a well thought out and balanced discussion would have been OK to leave but I think we all know it wouldn't have stayed that way for long.
Agree there should have been a mod post about the decision to ban any discussion of the situation.
A thread on *the* most controversial(1) subject in the known universe on STW.
It should be blatantly obvious to anyone whose been on here for more than a few days!
(1) Non bike related.
It’s my birthday today. I’m 50 FFS
please don’t dick around starting ‘funny’ topics that the mods have to mop up. I’d like to spend the rest of my day off not wondering what chaos is being wrought on here.
ta 🙂
Happy Birthday. 👍
Happy Birthday Mark
Happy Birthday!
Could I respectively propose that all discussion of this particular subject be suspended unitl Monday, being the first business day following Mark's birthday. 🙂
Might as well close the chat FORUM
TBH it might do me some good, a few others as well.
Having just read through what I think is the thread at the root of this, it's 11 posts of pretty standard STW "political discourse" and nothing too controversial (IMO). Some polarised views in evidence but it hadn't descended as far as many other threads do without closure...
there should have been a mod post about the decision to ban any discussion of the situation.
Agreed, it feels a bit odd for STW mods to stamp on this one topic...
I’d prefer we all just chat bikes, pizza ovens, vans, coffee, investment and trousers like normal 😂
In all seriousness the easiest way for a forum of people that on most days kind of get on to collapse is to discuss politics.
I’d support the forum mods to just make a statement to stay away from politics altogether and focus on why we came here in the 1st place.
Does anybody remember the allottment thread???
This is a mountain biking forum run by a magazine – keep some perspective!
but nothing’s going to be achieved by a bunch of opinionated white middle aged men getting all hufty about it on a bike forum
mrlebowski
It’s a not dissimilar situation to Trump complaining about being ‘censored’ on FB & Twitter. It’s their train set & their rules..
I prefer though, for attitudes to be aired & examined than driven underground where they can fester unchallenged. A tricky one – give something the O2 of publicity or starve it of exposure in the hope it goes away?
It’s a bit of a shame. There are many topics where I regard STW as my primary news source (UK politics, Covid amongst them). Discussions that contain disagreement often tease out and explore views and facts the MSM either ignore or just don’t have the time to fully report on.
Exactly my thoughts. I read a number of MSM papers, this forum can often provide other insights or views that I don’t read elsewhere. Yes, it’s unquestionably a contentious & uncomfortable issue to talk about – but shouldn’t we be able to cope with such things? Sometimes the only way you can deal with certain attitudes is to flush them out & challenge them. Having said that if the powers that be don’t wish for that to happen here then it’s up to them.
Ultimately it's down to the powers that be ... as other have said this has been a far more reliable source of COVID news than any of the MSM.
The sad fact is that some people don't like discussing certain things and experience has shown that the easiest way not to discuss it is to fling subtle insults in the hope of escalating to to get the thread closed.
Frankly, I'm amazed no-one has blamed the eBikers yet...
Or horse riders or walkers
I was disappointed that the thread was closed down. I want to know more about the subject and amongst the comments from people being dicks there would be plenty of useful comments from people on here who understand elements of the situation well.
I fully understand why it is easier to shut the conversation down.
Can anyone suggest where should I go to get a sensible view of the issues?
Happy birthday Mark!
Can anyone suggest where should I go to get a sensible view of the issues?
I'd recommend reading almost anything on the area by the late Robert Fisk...great historical, as well as more recent, perspective
Pity the Nation for example...tho about Lebanon, it explains the whole situation well. And there's a whole bunch of more recent stuff he wrote for the Independent
Thanks for the recommendation, it is much appreciated
Robert Fisk will give you a pretty slanted view, the inaccuracies in his reporting gave rise to the verb "to fisk". I have some of his books, but treat them as a point of view rather than gospel. When something becomes controversial even those with the best of intentions tend to get caught up in one side's version.
Any author will give you a slanted view, which you'll agree with or not depending on your world view. The poster asked for a recommendation...I gave one as a starting point. You gave nothing.
I doubt the issue I question will be resolved by us on STW.
Other people have tried for 70 years and failed.
I picked up that Fisk sat more on one side of the fence quite quickly but he seems to be well respected for his understanding, I guess I probably need another reference point slanted more the other way to get some balance or at least understand which may be must true.
I need to be careful because I have my own preconception - I think I have a reasonable idea of the issues, I think I know who is behaving more badly but I know I want to spend more time to understand.
I think there was something of a "pile-on" after his death with some journalists (some from the region) more or less accusing him of sitting at home and making stuff up, with another couple of articles backing up his (Fisk's) writing.
Books I'd recommend
1. Friedman "From Beirut to Jerusalem" It's 20 years old now (bloody hell!) but still worth a read, same wars/period/factions as Pity the Nation without Fisk's romantic overlay he has for Lebanon
2. Rather than Pity the Nation, Fisk's "The Great War for Civilization" It's a massive collection of everything from ****stan all the way to Africa charting politics and war...massive but thorough
3. Daniel Yergin's "The Prize" won a Pulitzer, and it's a gripping read. It's about oil, not just in middle east, but looks at the economies of those countries, and more importantly perhaps, the haves and have nots...
4. And "What Went Wrong" by Bernard Lewis...Now, this last one...it's a bit neo-con (You've been warned!) but it's worth it to get into the mindset of the Blair/Bush years
Hopefully all of you pushing for more discussion, arguments and free speech are prepared to give up your time to act as moderators for free?
Having to decide when lines have been crossed, one eye on potential legal repercussions, seems a great way to spend your free time.
Maybe it was closed prematurely, but probably easier for the mods and the site owners.
Maybe they knew it would turn into a round and round competition of trying to prove who is more politically savvy than the others, I’m cleverer than you! I can type longer! I can do more embedded quotes!
Yep the same old people on here desperate to be relevant - yawn!
Can anyone recommend a forum for people who ride bikes that like to talk about bikes?
I once tried to read this. Totally impregnable and never got past the first chapter. Chomsky at his frustrating worst. 🙂
Agree there should have been a mod post about the decision to ban any discussion of the situation
May I be of assistance.
Sometimes we take the easy option. Experience tells us that certain subjects will cause arguments, unpleasant comments and take a up far too much of our time. Then of course there is the underlining fact this is a privately owned platform so topics can be closed at will.
What really isn’t helpful is when your thread has been closed is opening a new one or asking why on the forum as it puts us back on square one.
Hopefully all of you pushing for more discussion, arguments and free speech are prepared to give up your time to act as moderators for free?
How do you know we don't already? 😉
Personally, I would like a wee explanation of why threads are closed, as a final post.
Given there’s only one public mod left I think explanations being posted is unlikely.
Exactly. If the thread was closed by [not Drac] then that's never gonna happen.
In any case, this is an eons-old argument which I can be blunter about now that I'm no longer a moderator. The mods are volunteers and don't owe you anything. I - we - they - are all well aware of what the userbase would like and I always at least tried to remember to put something in before closing a thread, but sometimes it just needs a bullet.
Hopefully all of you pushing for more discussion, arguments and free speech are prepared to give up your time to act as moderators for free?
It's weird and was ever thus. In the blue corner you've got people wanting more moderation, in the red corner you've got people complaining that moderation is too heavy-handed. That suggests to me that they're doing something right.
What really isn’t helpful is when your thread has been closed is opening a new one or asking why on the forum as it puts us back on square one.
I remember when that was a immediate banning offence. Standards are slipping. I blame the parents.
Hahahahaha!!!!! You’re kidding right? Couldn’t be more liberal biased on here if you tried.
You say that like it's a bad thing. If you're sitting there thinking "STW is great but what we really need on this forum for balance is more overt racists" then might I recommend Pistonheads?
who decide what we should be allowed to think and talk about
The mods have always decided what you can talk about and how you can say it - it's right there in the rules that you agreed to abide by when you signed up. And given that their name is all over the webpages on which your posts appear, this is entirely reasonable.
However they don't tell you what to think. I do that.
I remember when that was a immediate banning offence. Standards are slipping. I blame the parents.
I’ve been on nights so playing catch up. I blame Scotroutes.
It's a shame we can't, but I understand why.
I agree that the covid thread (I think I have read every post) is great, but it would be far less useful and entertaining if it was just Tired posting graphs. The interaction and mostly good natured arguing is what makes it good.
This may be poking the hornets nest, but what is it about the particular long running middle eastern disagreement between followers of 2 Ibrahimic religions that provokes such results from a group that is almost entirely composed of white, nominally Christian Europeans?
This may be poking the hornets nest,
It is congratulations on me now having to monitor a thread.
Hahahahaha!!!!! You’re kidding right? Couldn’t be more liberal biased on here if you tried.
It's bit of an American slant, but this:
Fisk’s “The Great War for Civilization” It’s a massive collection of everything from ****stan all the way to Africa charting politics and war…massive but thorough
Agree...a superb book but less focussed on the Middle East...great read tho
It's a shame Antony Beevor hasn't written on the Middle East...or has he?
i'm sorry you feel that dicking about with Gazza/gyoza/Giza/GZA created problems. It was trying to have a laugh, OK it's a tetchy subject (Gaza, not Gazza) but I'd hate to think we can't have fun even in serious times. I'm not aware anyone was hijacking them for nefarious hidden discussion about <that>, your customers were playing fair.
i’m sorry you feel that dicking about with Gazza/gyoza/Giza/GZA created problems.
I think you’ve misunderstood.
so explain, if you can?
so explain, if you can?
It's funny once. Then it's taking the piss.
I would actually like to have read a topic on the matter but it's simply not realistic to have one unfortunately. Everyone knows where it'll end and so I don't see the mods as having any choice on this one.
STW is my toxic free* home on the web and that's how I'm happy with it to remain.
*At its absolute worst it's not even remotely close to the cesspit that is Twitter/ fb etc.