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With the UK leaving the EU, does this mean that manufacturers, such as Cotic, will have the freedom to start making steel frames with more twang?
Asking for a friend.
(nb. this thread is about steel frame design, standards and manufacturing, not politics)
Only if they don't want to sell them to Europe.
Won't make any difference unless they are only planning on selling in the uk
Or anywhere else not in the EU, Shirley?
Know nothing about product liability and bike frames but here I go....would have thought need to produce to some international standard or demonstrate in some other way fit for purpose or no liability cover?
Edir No know autocorrected
I would assume they would just become UK law like everything else will.
I doubt there will be a bonfire of regulations*, and if there was I doubt anyone in Whitehall has the foggiest clue about bicycle tubing and how the CEN rules dissadvantaged strong and durable materials Vs aluminium.
*that affect us, I fully expect Borris, Gove and Mogg to do their best to stimulate the economy for tax accounting, their banking chums and family businesses.
The problem with claiming to tear up all the EU regulations means that you won't be able to sell anything to the EU. Or anywhere else in the world that has the same standards so they can export to the EU.
Anyone who thought otherwise was duped.
If anyone wants a Mk1 pre CEN Soul, I'm open to ridiculously overpriced offers 😎
EU regulations are accepted just about everywhere bar the US, we make telecoms kit and submission for approvals in non EU countries is normally just a rubber stamping of the EU CE certificate. The US is the only major exception who have their own regs (which are normally pretty shoddy as they don't really care about safety).
For your next bike… CEN is now ISO… ie. widely adopted around the world. Brexit just means that we no longer have any control over setting CEN, which so often form the basis of worldwide standards.
A version of this thread could be on just about any forum with the just the product in question changed. And the answer would be the same. The same standards will apply except where the US have bent us over to accept lower ones to their benefit.
The only freedom Brexit brings GB (not UK because NI has been given to RoI) is the freedom to be royally shafted by rest of the world in a desperate attempt to secure trade with them.
The same standards will apply except where the US have bent us over to accept lower ones to their benefit.
Worse than that, we’ll have to accept lower standard (less regulated if you want to see it that way) products from the USA, but still have to produce to higher (international) standards set by the EU here ourselves.
There's no reason you couldn't just go to a custom frame builder who will select you a tube set to deliver you the required degree of "twang" but it won't be mass-produced and cheap. It's the CEN fatigue test that results in 'unresponsive' frames due to thicker butted tubing - you could achieve it with thinner, higher strength steels but it takes more skill to weld and materials costs more. You pays your money etc.
Or get your Twang from a Ti frame instead, if your priorities are Twang in itself - which they should be as a bit of Twang is a very good thing - and Ti gives Ping Twang - Though Ti arguably not as durable unless exceptionally well made, so I can see why someone would prioritise steel Twang if you can get it.
We will soon get the UKCA mark on our products to show how 'independent' and 'in control' we are to replace the 'awful' CE mark. There aren't any standards yet behind the UKCA but at least we're in control (of something).
The standard is BS EN ISO 4210
I think it's got 9 parts and covers the testing of different aspects of several different types of bike...
The 'BS' bit means it's the British version, the 'EN' means its harmonised with equivalent European standards and the 'ISO' means it's also recognised/harmonised internationally...
So nope, like many things Brexit won't instantly get manufacturers out of having to make safe product's. Even for more 'twang'...
Ti doesn’t twang… it sort of just goes ahhhh…
And you can get steel frames with plenty of twang along their length… but they are stiffer and stronger at the tubing junctions. Win win. Modern geometry requires longer tubes as well… which can bring back added twang… in the hands of a good frame designer not limiting themselves with cost considerations.
The ASTM standards for outdoor exersize equipment are much more rigourous than the BS/EN standards as they litigate wherever possible over there, I'd have thought bicycles would be the same.
We'll become a country of Grim Donuts and the world will follow
What’s with all the America shot talking, are you saying specialized and trek make a shoddy unsafe product as they are Americans????
richmars
Subscriber
We will soon get the UKCA mark on our products to show how ‘independent’ and ‘in control’ we are
Definitely needs to be known as U-CAK.
What’s with all the America shot talking, are you saying specialized and trek make a shoddy unsafe product as they are Americans????
I'd be very surprised if they didn't either submit samples for regional testing or make some sort of submission to demonstrate equivalence...
In fact my daughters old hotrock has a BS 6102 sticker on the seat tube, the old (superseded) British standard for bicycle 'specification' (note not safety) so clearly they keep an eye on these things...
It's worth noting that for lots of industries compliance with a given standard is not always mandatory, it's just very helpful when something you make or design is involved in an incident (could be fatal, injurious or simply a near miss) and you need to demonstrate (probably to the HSE) that you were not negligent and sought to comply with the appropriate standard. Your evidence could of course be some hand calcs on a napkin rather than a full set of documented tests, it's only when you get to court that you'll find out for sure if that evidence is sufficient...
Of course British standards compliance is also often cited as a condition for certain types of import for sale, eg don't import a bicycle or bicycle component for sale in the UK if it doesn't meet the applicable parts of BS EN ISO 4210, but most will probably be self certifying. It's more than likely this arrangement will still stand for a long while and still be mirrored by the EU for anything we export to them...
The talk of trade deals "opening the UK up" to US imports of chlorinated chicken is a whole separate topic, food safety is monitored by the food standards agency which is an entirely separate entity from the HSE I believe and don't rely on company's documenting compliance with industry standards in the same way, they like to inspect, review staff training and look at records, they don't always wait until a company kills a customer to get involved.
The talk of trade deals “opening the UK up” to US imports of chlorinated chicken is a whole separate topic, food safety is monitored by the food standards agency
Chlorinated chicken is a massive red herring in this context, because there is no suggestion that it is unsafe in an FSA type way, rather it is the reason for it being needed (sanitizing shitty chicken) that is unpalatable and contrary to where we in the EU have been heading (better animal welfare and cleaner abbatoirs).
are you saying specialized and trek make a shoddy unsafe product as they are Americans????
No, they test to the same standards as the rest of us (by law, but they probably choose to test well beyond ISO, as do we)… might not be true of ‘local’ brands happy to sell within the NTA area only (such as Walmart brands like Mongoose), not sure. Anyway, on topic… major brands in the UK will keep building to international standards… small custom builders can give you want you want OP, always have been able to. You never needed Brexit to get a bike build to your design (don’t though… get a stronger one tested to and beyond modern standards).
I don’t know if bikes can be self certified by a manufacturer to meet European standards, but I come from an industry where our products - construction products - can only be placed on the market by law if they meet certain standards. These standards are harmonised across Europe and, by having third party testing completed we are allowed to place the CE mark on them and sell them across Europe & UK and elsewhere too. We’ve been used to using competing test houses across Europe & UK to approve our product. The approval process costs £100k’s.
The current situation is that the UKCA mark will replace the CE mark in the UK, with effect mid 2021. First this means that we have to check that the test house we used is allowed to authorise to the new UKCA mark. If they are, we can update the label on our product (this cannot be underestimated when you have 1000s of products and labels are under a quality management system with various important stakeholders placing demands on labelling). If they are not - say we used a European test house who will not automatically be able to approve the new UKCA mark - then we shall have to bring it back to a uk test house and pay more money for certification. The UK test houses actually used the phrase ‘taking back control’ but they appear to be in cahoots with the government to make this a money spinner for them, whilst Seriously jeopardising the profitability of our business. And that’s beside the real point - as a uk based manufacturer with global product sales it might make more sense financially to abandon the uk market and enjoy the huge European market we are approved to sell in! It’s a complete own goal for uk manufacturing.
As a final note I should add I’m a design engineer, not a conformance expert. And as a design engineer I have absolutely no desire to have to design my products to meet divergent European and UK standards. I’ve enjoyed designing products that meet one harmonised standard that can be sold all across Europe and elsewhere.
Final final note: I’ve enjoyed contributing to those bloody European standards! Makes me mad the more I talk about it.
The problem I'm going to have to solve is finding space on the products I design for the UKCA logo in addition to the CE logo, which will mean using a different method to apply it, plus all the extra testing that may be needed. Total waste of time and money.
@goldfish24 I suspect that at the point of divergence UK test houses will be negotiating to keep accreditation with the EU while dealing with a lack of clarity on how a UKCA accredited test house differs (it won't).
I also believe that the UK will continue to be a contributor to EU standards because most of the industry bods that get involved are practical enough to understand the value of maintaining as much harmonisation as possible.
Political leaders and voters don't consider these things, going forwards half of an engineers job is going to be working in and around new legal constraints dreamt up for political point scoring...
Coming back to bicycles, on day one you can pretty much guarantee that any condition for both import and export will be met by BS EN ISO 4210 conformity. Plus there is plenty of space on a bike frame for stickers so you might as well place a 'CE' and 'UKCA' label and why not a union flag and a picture of a spitfire. You know just to pacify any KIPPERs that see it...
Despite what the 'kippers say, the vast majority of UK design and manufacturing will still be to European standards, no one would be stupid enough to create a country specific set of standards which would preclude selling them elsewhere. Ok, so nearly no one would be stupid enough to do that, so I'll expect to see ANSI printed on upcoming UK products.
That's correct aP, but from what I've seen about UKCA, even if the standards are the same, I'll need to put a UKCA and CE mark on my products, which will mean the same. Utterly pointless.
That's the Brexit Bonus right there. For sticker printers 🤔
I thought BS 6102 refer to things like reflectors, brake levers and incandescent lights measured in candela and various anachronisms schemed-up to 'protect' the UK bike industry from forrin' imports? In a previous role I used to sit on CE technical committees - it's stark raving nonsense for anyone to think that if you're a UK-based, medium or large scale manufacturer you're going to go down the route of making UK-specific products - it just adds costs and reduced flexibility. Most of time if I see a "made in UK" label on a product, I think of poorly made stuff like Austin Allegros and Morris Marinas and assume they must be $hit!
Most of time if I see a “made in UK” label on a product, I think of poorly made stuff like Austin Allegros and Morris Marinas and assume they must be $hit!
And the stuff that is good, our cheeses, whisky and stuff, will be the very things that the US want in on to evoke with their lower quality and cheaper versions.
The US don't want our whisky - they've slapped a 25% tariffs on single malts it and it's killing the industry. Of course, little mention in most of the media as they're pro-Brexit and don't want to know that the US will screw-us over good and proper to get their way - besides, it only affects Scotland.
I also believe that the UK will continue to be a contributor to EU standards because most of the industry bods that get involved are practical enough to understand the value of maintaining as much harmonisation as possible.
doubt it, if you're not in the EU you won't be involved. You might see UK involvement at an international level, but by then the decisions will have been made. There is the US, the EU and China, a second tier such as Japan, and I assume the UK, if the economy doesn't collapse too much. Then the rest. Unsurprisingly the power is in the big blocks.
I also believe that the UK will continue to be a contributor to EU standards because most of the industry bods that get involved are practical enough to understand the value of maintaining as much harmonisation as possible.
Industry bods will want to be involved, yes. However, the standards activities are often funded by European Commission and that funding only goes to member states. Even if UK government supports with their own funding it is a barrier to getting involved when you're outside of the initial proposal & formation framework.
The US don’t want our whisky – they’ve slapped a 25% tariffs on single malts it and it’s killing the industry.
You've misunderstood me. They don't want it in the US. They want us to be forced, through a crap deal, to accept their version of it. Wisconsin made Stilton cheese, Tennessee Scotch Whisky...
besides, it only affects Scotland.
Sadly for Scotland, trade remains a UK undevolved policy so it isn't in Scottish control and features on the UK balance sheet.
I thought BS 6102 refer to things like reflectors, brake levers and incandescent lights measured in candela and various anachronism...
It did, it was essentially a set of functional rules for what a bike should have at the point of sale, it wasn't protectionism really just trying to make retail match up with the highway code.
The newer standard basically puts the onus on the manufacturer to substantiate the structure of a bike before going to market. It makes some sense, which is really more important to you as a customer? Pedal reflectors or the headtube staying attached if you hit a pothole? (over simplification)...
Of course in yankland you don't (as far as I know) have to sell bikes with reflectors or two brakes, my point being that when they export to the UK specialized (and other companies) are already used to adapting their products to our local rules and they have managed this fine for quite a few years...
Chlorinated chicken is a massive red herring in this context, because there is no suggestion that it is unsafe in an FSA type way
Correct, however it is an illustration of how we won't actually have control - we'll either have to accept it in situations where we aren't told where the chicken comes from (Nando's anyone? KFC?) or farmers who are trying to keep better standards will honour of business.
Nandos uses only British chicken for their British restaurants. KFC use 100% British chicken for their main fresh products and most of their manufactured lines. They are also leaders in welfare for chicken farming. They have a full range breakdown and report on their website.