You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
OH and myself on holiday in Norfolk the other week and on the roads the speed limits seemed to be all over the place. Long story short, OH caught on camera in Worstead area 44 in 30 limit. I'm pretty sure that the limit on the road was 50 and suddenly reduced to 30 just before the man with the gun (not in Police vehicle or uniform - actually booked like a private company) hiding in a driveway at the side of the road clocked her before she noticed the speed limit on her satnav. What's the likely outcome as she's freaking out a bit. This is her first infringement ever. She's usually really uber careful about sticking within the law and doesn't want to make matters worse by saying the wrong thing. She's already put her hands up on the notice of intended prosecution form.
Speed awareness course costing between £100-£120
What's the likely outcome
EDIT: missed the bit about first time so agree, probably be offered a speed awareness course.
clocked her before she noticed the speed limit on her satnav
Need to be looking at the speed signs by the side of the road, not the satnav. 😎
Painful lesson but she's done the right thing by putting her hands up straight away. Many don't.
Hate to be a harbinger of doom, but she may not be eligible for a course as her speed was over the generally applied threshold of 10%+9mph (set locally, theirs may be different) . If she'd been doing less than 42 she may have been offered a course, but I suspect she'll be offered a fixed penalty notice.
BURN HER!!
Or actually to be a bit more helpful
What did the NIP say actually?
You saying it looked like a private individual makes me wonder if it was a community speed watch; they can't issue penalties /fines but can refer to police for warnings, prosecution, etc. But usually (I'm told) prosecution then is for repeat or serious offences - does 44 in a 30 count as serious, IDK.
Note also that although it says notice of INTENDED prosecution, that's not a confirmation she will be prosecuted. It's legal terminology and has to be served within a fixed time period 14d in case they do follow up. They may decide not to, or just issue a finger wagging, and maybe even moreso if it's a CSW camera.
I wouldn't automatically assume it's going to be a ticket or speed awareness and even if it is, it's done now so worrying about it won't change the outcome, after you've done sufficient head shaking and eye rolling then be kind.
Having done something similar to this myself earlier this year, I think the worst outcome will be 3pts and £100 fine. I was expecting to have to go to court and have someone tell me what an idiot I’d been and possibly serve a ban, but it was a fixed penalty.
RM.
As mentioned above have you had the NIP yet. The set up sounds like a community speed watch where locals, often councillors, monitor speeds and may send advisory letters but do not prosecute
Given your/OH response it seems to be achieving the intended aims of slowing traffic and raising awareness I guess
If it's a community speedwatch, she'll get an educational letter unless she's been caught before, which you say she hasn't.
If it was the Police, and you've said it's an NIP, then at that speed I'm not sure she'll be offered a course. 3 points and a fine is not the end of the world, a lot of us have had similar.
If it's a community speedwatch, she'll get an educational letter unless she's been caught before, which you say she hasn't.
If it was the Police, and you've said it's an NIP, then at that speed I'm not sure she'll be offered a course. 3 points and a fine is not the end of the world, a lot of us have had similar.
We have these community busybodies in a village near us (well, they have the signs although I've never seen Edna or Bert at the side of the road with a gun).
OP - I had something similar once. Unfamiliar road and it dropped from a 40 to a 30 on a blind bend so I came around the corner, saw the 30 and just eased off to coast down to the limit instead of hitting the brakes. Unfortunately one of our illustrious boys in blue was waiting to catch me about 10m into the 30 zone. I have every respect for the cops but that irked me a bit that he was sat there with his car on a blind bend barely feet into a 30 zone... Anyway, got a speed awareness course for that.
Chapter and verse (well, sort of)
I doubt that it was a Community Speed Watch (CSW) scheme. They don't issue NIPs and 44 in a 30 would probably be considered "for targeted police intervention" (see below)
If it was CSW then it sounds like they're outside guidance and can be complained about, although I doubt that it was CSW^^. A complaint won't change your own liability
These details are sent to the CSW Administrator for processing. A PNC (Police National Computer) check is run on the vehicle and the registered keeper’s information is obtained and a letter is sent.
First offence – letter is sent to the registered keeper advising details of the offence and a reminder of the effects of their action.
Second offence – follow-up letter is sent to registered keeper with stronger wording
Persistent offenders and high speeders will be added to a tasking list and circulated for targeted police intervention.Do the volunteers have to follow any rules?
Yes, our volunteers must follow our rules of conduct. The safety of the volunteers and all road users is paramount:Volunteers must not stand in the road at any time
Volunteers must not obstruct the footpath
Approved high-visibility jackets must be worn at all times
Volunteers will only use approved equipment and will only use the equipment following final approval by the Constabulary
Volunteers will only use the equipment at locations which have been agreed in advance by the Constabulary.
When traffic is being monitored, the signs provided will be placed and erected in accordance with the instructions given
The device must be used in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions
Volunteers must not attempt to conceal their speed monitoring activities from passing motorists
Monitoring is to be undertaken by a minimum of three volunteers at any one time
It is strongly recommended that at least one volunteer be in possession of a mobile phone
Monitoring only should take place. NO signals or gestures are to be made to drivers. Volunteers MUST NOT attempt to stop any vehicle
Checks should be carried out in daylight hours and in 20mph and 30mph speed limit areas onlyI wish to complain about a member of a Speed Watch team.
Community Speed Watch operators have strict guidelines to adhere to and are expected to maintain a professional approach to monitoring. If you feel that this was not the case, then please contact the CSW Administrator and they will investigate your complaint.
https://www.norfolk.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/wsi/watch-schemes-initiatives/community-speedwatch/speed-watch-guidance---norfolk--suffolk/community-speed-watch-guidance/
If the NIP says 44 in 30 then it'll be a fine and points
your speed narrowly exceeded the limit and falls within the guidelines set out by the National Police Chief Council (NPCC) up to:
42 mph in a 30 mph area
https://www.norfolk.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rs/road-safety/speeding/if-youve-received-a-speed-camera-activation-letter-or-notice/
Having been snared by a Norfolk speed gun a couple of years ago I think you may get away with a speed awareness course, although I don’t think my level of transgression was quite that of your OH. As a general note, Norfolk and Suffolk are pretty free of fixed speed cameras but they love their mobile units and PC Plod by the roadside, and to be fair, the not knowing where they may be means that limits are generally well observed in these parts.
OP - I had something similar once. Unfamiliar road and it dropped from a 40 to a 30 on a blind bend so I came around the corner, saw the 30 and just eased off to coast down to the limit instead of hitting the brakes. Unfortunately one of our illustrious boys in blue was waiting to catch me about 10m into the 30 zone. I have every respect for the cops but that irked me a bit that he was sat there with his car on a blind bend barely feet into a 30 zone... Anyway, got a speed awareness course for that.
I'm not sure that 'I came round a blind bend on an unfamiliar road and was then unable to spot a camera in sufficient time to be able to slow down to the speed limit plus a margin before the limit was in force' is quite the defence you think.
Speed awareness course costing between £100-£120
Highly unlikely to get a speed awareness course for 44 in a 30 I think. Each force has its own guidelines but it will be something like 34-38mph - Speed Awareness course if suitable (IE first time offender)... over that - points and fine.
OP - I had something similar once. Unfamiliar road and it dropped from a 40 to a 30 on a blind bend so I came around the corner, saw the 30 and just eased off to coast down to the limit instead of hitting the brakes. Unfortunately one of our illustrious boys in blue was waiting to catch me about 10m into the 30 zone. I have every respect for the cops but that irked me a bit that he was sat there with his car on a blind bend barely feet into a 30 zone... Anyway, got a speed awareness course for that.
I'm not sure that 'I came round a blind bend on an unfamiliar road and was then unable to spot a camera in sufficient time to be able to slow down to the speed limit plus a margin before the limit was in force' is quite the defence you think.
I didn't try and defend anything. I just thought it was pretty snide hiding around a blind corner where a 30 limit started right after it and the cop was 10m beyond that.
I'm not sure that 'I came round a blind bend on an unfamiliar road and was then unable to spot a camera in sufficient time to be able to slow down to the speed limit plus a margin before the limit was in force' is quite the defence you think.
+1, that's just poor observation and driving standard.
Either you could stop in the distance you could see was clear, but chose not to drop your speed to the limit. Or you couldn't.
I agree, 3 points and £100 fine is likely worst-case scenario. If it helps put her mind at rest, I would also note that, in my experience, 3 points has no effect on insurance premiums.
Ok, misunderstood. But now raises even more wondering. I thought the copper measured you 10m beyond the limit rather than was stood 10m beyond. It's no defence still, the limit starts at the 30, not that you can 'ease off to coast down' from where it starts.
But if the copper was 10m after the limit, they got an accurate reading on you in 10m, which at 30 plus margin allowance would take around 0.7 seconds (10m/s = 36kph = 22.5mph). ISTR they need about 1/2 second of constant speed reading which is why they are used over longer distances; if you are braking then it doesn't give a consistent answer.
How fast were you actually going when you got the ticket? Did they get a longer reading on you to know your speed as you were coming up to the limit (in which case they must have had line of sight) in which case why ease down instead of braking? (no, they can't, it was a blind bend?)
I don't get it.
I love how many people on threads like this like outing themselves as terrible drivers 🤣
I love how many people on threads like this like outing themselves as terrible drivers
The speed limit through Winnersh was dropped from 40 to 30 last month, the 'discussion' on various local facebook groups was illuminating ........
I also think people have a blind spot for what good driving actually looks like. I've done a couple of observed rides with the police and IAM since getting back into motorcycling and whilst I only signed up thinking it would be a a useful refresher (and free) after 10 years, there's a LOT more to learn. Most of it even sounds really obvious once you've been told it. For example (playing back to DaveyBoy's example) , they showed the group a photo of a bend and asked what could you see (answer, not a lot TBH, fairly typical bend on a country road). Then they pointed out you could see a church spire ~1/2 mile away over the hedge, what does that mean? A village? What does that mean? That there's probably going to be a 30mph limit round the bend, or if not soon.
noticed the speed limit on her satnav
I've said it before, but I strongly believe that Sat-navs have lead to a massive drop in the standard of driving. People just don't seem to observe signs anymore because their satnav will tell them which way to go and what the speed limit is which means you can actually survive without having to look at anything other than the car in front.
Which means they miss all the warning signs pointing out junctions, footpaths, bridleways etc. Even things like zebra crossings, or even pelican crossings, because the satnav is doing some of the thinking for them, they just don't seem to be scanning the roadsides for signs and hazards.
The old ACPO guidelines used to be under 10%+2 so 35mph in a 30 to qualify for an awareness course rather than points. These days I believe it's at the discretion of the police force issuing the NIP. I read somewhere more recently that some forces offer it up to 10%+9 as someone else said here ☝ but she's still in excess of that.
At almost 50% over the limit, well, good luck and be grateful it's a NIP rather than a summons. A court visit would be 4-6 points and a week's wages.
I just thought it was pretty snide hiding around a blind corner where a 30 limit started
Whilst I'm not for a moment suggesting that you may be being slightly economical with the facts despite describing 10m as being "barely feet," I've been driving since 1990 and I don't recall ever seeing a speed limit reduction in place directly after a blind bend. A Google Street View link might be useful so that other's don't get caught out in a similar manner?
Bends aside, that's broadly how I got caught out. Limit dropped to a 30, I was braking but hadn't quite slowed enough when I passed the sign. Got pinged at something like 34 and, as you say, another 10m or so and I'd have been at/under the limit. I didn't see a speed camera at all - the first I knew of it was the NIP - so either they were hiding or I wasn't paying sufficient attention.
I've said it before, but I strongly believe that Sat-navs have lead to a massive drop in the standard of driving. People just don't seem to observe signs anymore because their satnav
Still a lot safer by far than trying to navigate via a road atlas on your lap along with a list of junction cues on a post it stuck to the dashboard.
Having driven from Chippenham in North Wiltshire to Benwick in Cambridgeshire, a journey of 153 miles that takes four hours on a good day, I can tell you it was not a happy experience using that method.
Unlike the many, many journeys I did across the south of England, up as far as Liverpool, across to Norwich, and South Wales, and London, including from Land’s End to North Wiltshire, using a satnav made it very easy because I could watch the traffic, keep my eyes open for signs, because the great majority of my destinations were in places totally unfamiliar to me, in vehicles I’d never driven before.
I drove roughly 100,000 miles over two years - I couldn’t have done the job without a satnav using software that was regularly updated.
I've said it before, but I strongly believe that Sat-navs have lead to a massive drop in the standard of driving. People just don't seem to observe signs anymore because their satnav will tell them which way to go and what the speed limit is which means you can actually survive without having to look at anything other than the car in front.
Better than not surviving?
I dunno, I guess this is a big serving of "it depends." I typically have a satnav running constantly (Google Maps via Android Auto) even if I know where I'm going because it's invaluable for traffic updates. But I don't stare at it constantly, I flick glances at it if I'm coming up to a junction. I've turned the voice off because I already have one woman wittering in my ear that I'm doing everything wrong and don't need another, so the alerts I get are the occasional 'bing.'
I don't doubt however that as you say, some people just blindly, slavishly follow it. I'll second-guess it if I know it's trying to send me somewhere stupid.
Ok, misunderstood. But now raises even more wondering. I thought the copper measured you 10m beyond the limit rather than was stood 10m beyond. It's no defence still, the limit starts at the 30, not that you can 'ease off to coast down' from where it starts.
Is correct
But if the copper was 10m after the limit, they got an accurate reading on you in 10m, which at 30 plus margin allowance would take around 0.7 seconds (10m/s = 36kph = 22.5mph). ISTR they need about 1/2 second of constant speed reading which is why they are used over longer distances; if you are braking then it doesn't give a consistent answer.
BITD of radar you didn't really know what it was registering at distance; it could be a bigger vehicle behind. We used to have to make checks a minimum of 200yards inside the speed limit and for a minimum time (1/2sec? can't remember now) to ensure that it was the correct vehicle.
Modern hand-held laser systems can have a "gate" set for a min and max range, which can be anywhere between around 20m out to 600m (depends on the manufacturer, probably). They acquire the subject at the max gate and then tell you when the speed is registered. They also measure range, so you can set the gate(s) from the back of the 30 sign if it's an unfamiliar site.
10m is probably a slight exaggeration, but 20m should be an ok max gate with some systems, but the min gate might be a problem if it's set below system spec. Usefulness also depends on speed of acquisition or you won't get a reading, which is one problem with max to min distance gates if set too close on faster vehicles.
There might also be detailed guidance on site selection locally
The old ACPO guidelines used to be under 10%+2 so 35mph in a 30 to qualify for an awareness course rather than points. These days I believe it's at the discretion of the police force issuing the NIP. I read somewhere more recently that some forces offer it up to 10%+9 as someone else said here ☝ but she's still in excess of that.
National guidance for a course coincides with Norfolk's published advice (above ^^)
if you are braking then it doesn't give a consistent answer.
Vehicle average speed is a prosecutable thing. VASCAR and average speed cameras are two such devices
That's interesting, thanks.
I get how an average speed camera on the motorway works, distance/time and thus average over the distance. Matters not if you observed the limit rigidly most of the time and then a mile at warp speed, or averaged 57mph the whole way, you could get the same answer. Didn't know about the vascar type.
I thought a radar / laser type had to get a fairly constant reading hence if on passing the sign at say 40mph and seeing the operator you dropped anchors to 28mph, even though they know on average you'd been above, because the camera has a whole load of readings at quite wide variation then it can't give a verified answer. Hence the (maybe urban myth) advice to slam on to bugger up the readings. Happy to be wrong about that.
Got to confess I assumed best part of 50% over the speed limit would be more serious than 3 points and a fine or a speech awareness course. Clearly from the responses of others I was wrong.
I thought a radar / laser type had to get a fairly constant reading hence if on passing the sign at say 40mph and seeing the operator you dropped anchors to 28mph, even though they know on average you'd been above, because the camera has a whole load of readings at quite wide variation then it can't give a verified answer. Hence the (maybe urban myth) advice to slam on to bugger up the readings. Happy to be wrong about that.
It's been a while (10+ years), poor memory, new tech, etc.
IIRC the modern laser will tell you when it's happy. Radar locked a reading in when you pressed the trigger, hence the need for great care
Two layers of opinion of excess speed; yours corroborated by the device
@convert Serious offences start at 51mph for the OP and will involve a court date points and £1k fine or a weeks wages. Rumour has it that Suffolk and Norfolk Police are taking a more hardline approach to speeding currently. Probably due to the large amount of construction traffice in the Leiston area.
From personal observation the speed cameras are operated by directly employed civilian staff in Suffolk (Police Staff on the back of the Hi-Viz vest). Using the A14 in the Stowmarket to Claydon area? Watch out for a chap in hi-viz on the overpasses at weekends. Similarly at Scole just over the border.
I also think people have a blind spot for what good driving actually looks like. I've done a couple of observed rides with the police and IAM since getting back into motorcycling and whilst I only signed up thinking it would be a a useful refresher (and free) after 10 years, there's a LOT more to learn. Most of it even sounds really obvious once you've been told it. For example (playing back to DaveyBoy's example) , they showed the group a photo of a bend and asked what could you see (answer, not a lot TBH, fairly typical bend on a country road). Then they pointed out you could see a church spire ~1/2 mile away over the hedge, what does that mean? A village? What does that mean? That there's probably going to be a 30mph limit round the bend, or if not soon.
A mate's dad is an ex traffic officer and passed on a lot of such wisdom. Seems obvious but....
We used to do IAM observed driving every 3-4 years as part of being a company car driver, company being careful about duty of care for those of us that drove a lot of miles.
One thing I always remember is
Which means they miss all the warning signs pointing out junctions, footpaths, bridleways etc. Even things like zebra crossings, or even pelican crossings, because the satnav is doing some of the thinking for them, they just don't seem to be scanning the roadsides for signs and hazards.
Some places there are just so many warning and advice signs coming it's almost impossible to assimilate them all; in that case if nothing else just realise shitload of warning signs = lots of hazards so switch on and pay attention.
I proffered that as a mtber when I see a shitload of roots and you simply can't plot a path through you just aim for the trail the other side, ride fast and loose and hope for the best. Apparently the same tactics would be frowned upon in the IAM when driving.
Hence the (maybe urban myth) advice to slam on to bugger up the readings. Happy to be wrong about that.
I still don't know if that's myth or not, but a quick google says that laser systems will get a speed in 0.3sec, which is verified internally by software that either accepts it or throws an error code, e.g. out of range spec, aim wandering off the subject, etc.
Let's assume 0.3sec for the driver to get to the brake pedal and achieve braking pressure (ignoring observation skills and reaction time to that observation) and your goose is probably already cooked
Last time I had any driving instruction (2007) the instructor said that normally by the time you see the speed trap it's too late!
For accepting the FPN even at nearly 50% over, is it still 3 points/£100?
Google suggests 4-5 points plus a heftier fine; is that only in court?
For accepting the FPN even at nearly 50% over, is it still 3 points/£100?
Google suggests 4-5 points plus a heftier fine; is that only in court?
Yes, still fixed at 3pp and £100 AIUI
Court will almost certainly cost you more, if only for the addition of court costs. PP in Court starts at 3pp, but can be up to either 6pp or 56 days disqual
The Council has therefore increased the penalty for the top band of seriousness to ensure that there is clear increase in fine level as the seriousness of offending increases. This means fines for these offenders will have a starting point of 150 per cent of weekly income rather than the existing level of 100 per cent of weekly income. This would apply to those who for example go at 41mph or more where there is a 20mph limit, 51mph or more where there is a 30mph limit or over 101mph on a motorway. Sentence levels for less serious offences are not changing.
The maximum fines allowed by law remain the same, so fines cannot exceed these. The maximum fine for speeding is £1000, unless it takes place on a motorway, in which case it is £2500. https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/blog/post/changes-to-fine-levels-for-speeding/
| Fine Band A | 50% of relevant weekly income | 25 – 75% of relevant weekly income |
|---|---|---|
| Fine Band B | 100% of relevant weekly income | 75 – 125% of relevant weekly income |
| Fine Band C | 150% of relevant weekly income | 125 – 175% of relevant weekly income |
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/speeding-revised-2017/
clocked her before she noticed the speed limit on her satnav
I often use Apple Maps as a satnav, but never trust the speed limits it suggests as it is often wrong. For example, on a drive up the A68 today it missed the 20 mph in Jedburgh (it said the limit was 30) and the 40 mph out of West Woodburn (it said 60).
yes - the FPN is always £100/3pts. Anything greater than that is only possible in court.For accepting the FPN even at nearly 50% over, is it still 3 points/£100?
Google suggests 4-5 points plus a heftier fine; is that only in court?
I thought a radar / laser type had to get a fairly constant reading hence if on passing the sign at say 40mph and seeing the operator you dropped anchors to 28mph, even though they know on average you'd been above, because the camera has a whole load of readings at quite wide variation then it can't give a verified answer. Hence the (maybe urban myth) advice to slam on to bugger up the readings. Happy to be wrong about that.
Technically they don’t need any equipment to pursue prosecution for speeding - opinion of police officers could be sufficient evidence in itself. Most vans are using a set up which is video recording the entire measurement - you won’t outfox them with these antics and I’d suggest that slamming on might be perceived by roadside traffic cops as erratic driving worthy of a discussion about driving with due care and attention. So I’m going urban myth more likely to turn a “please slow down” or “here’s a course to give you another chance to learn the limits” into “explain yourself in court”.
Technically they don’t need any equipment to pursue prosecution for speeding - opinion of police officers
The important part in that sentence is "officerS"
I was under the impression that if you were caught doing 50% more than the posted speed limit you were off to court.
Although this may have changed with the lack of prosecution staff , court days available and judges. So a fpn is given as a quick and easy route, rather than tie up court time and manpower.
Which is a shame, and as alluded to above , the fines aren't really that much of a deterrent, the points for excessive speed should go up from 3 to 4 or even 6 so the chance of a ban becomes more likely.
However without enough police and CPS it's a mute point as the chance of getting caught are minimal nowadays.
I normally avoid commenting on spelling type errors but I also subscribe to a daily etymology email (wordsmarts, fwiw) and it just so happens, I had literally just finished reading about it, so on this occasion I will
What’s a “Moot” Point, Anyway?
Much like “chips” vs. “fries” or “apartment” vs. “flat,” there are plenty of linguistic disagreements between American and British English speakers. This includes the phrase “moot point,” which has an almost opposite meaning on each side of the pond.
If you ask an American to define “moot point,” they’d likely say it refers to an irrelevant issue unworthy of further discussion. But most British people would claim the opposite — that moot points are worth debating further. To understand how such an unusual distinction emerged, let’s take a closer look at the term’s Old English origins.
According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, “moot” was coined in the 12th century as a shortened version of the Old English gemot, meaning “formal assembly.” These gemot were meetings of groups of freemen, gathering to debate issues of a legislative or judicial nature. By the 16th century, “moot” evolved into a noun for a hypothetical case for law students to practice. In fact, “moot courts” are still common in law schools around the English-speaking world.
In time, “moot” developed a wider use in the general lexicon. British English speakers began using “moot point” to describe any uncertain issue worth debating — formal legal issues or otherwise. But in America, “moot” came to mean something very different by the early 20th century. According to Merriam-Webster, American English speakers adopted “moot point” to describe pointless matters that were undeserving of debate. This newer definition was based on the idea that rhetorical arguments in moot courts had no actual effect on the real world, and neither did moot points.
Whichever side of the debate (and pond) you fall on, a moot point can mean one of two very different things. Just don’t mistakenly spell or pronounce it “mute point.”
I also subscribe to a daily etymology email (wordsmarts, fwiw)
If you like podcasts, may I recommend The Allusionist.
Whichever side of the debate (and pond) you fall on, a moot point can mean one of two very different things.
Etymology aside, it's the first I've heard of anyone this side of the pond thinking "moot point" means other than a point you've already rendered irrelevant.
Etymology aside, it's the first I've heard of anyone this side of the pond thinking "moot point" means other than a point you've already rendered irrelevant.
I'm not exactly sure if I'm american english or british english on this. But to use the poster's example; that FPNs should be able to be higher for higher transgressions - that's a point that is definitely worth debate. I think has a lot of merit, still allows a speeder the right to challenge or accept as they can with a 3pt/£100 with the jeopardy that a frivolous or vexatious challenge is likely to end up with a worse penalty for wasting precious court time.
The poster then says it's moot because chances of being caught are low - but it isn't really because people are being caught every day. Quick google says that 2.3 million in 2023, 50-odd% went for retraining, 36% got the FPN and 13% (so almost 300,000) went to court. That's not an unsubstantial number that could be reduced and thus save a lot of court time.
I also subscribe to a daily etymology email (wordsmarts, fwiw)
If you like podcasts, may I recommend The Allusionist.
Whichever side of the debate (and pond) you fall on, a moot point can mean one of two very different things.
Etymology aside, it's the first I've heard of anyone this side of the pond thinking "moot point" means other than a point you've already rendered irrelevant.
Yes, I'd argue that wordsmarts has left an important part out of their email, which should include that a moot point is worthy of debate but is rendered irrelevant by events.
A moot point debated may be of use in a future situation
"The poster then says it's moot because chances of being caught are low - but it isn't really because people are being caught every day."
Perhaps it should be the chances are low for anyone with any sense. The only people I know with recent points were caught by highly visible speed cameras. I have been speeding since 1979 without getting any points. Some places I drive under the limit - residential streets for example - other places I drive over the limit.
Some speed limits are ludicrously low and observed by nobody. For example this 30mph limit on the slip road for the M8 west to the Clyde Tunnel 500m before a roundabout.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/u96BY9iV2QCrs8yC8
I've said it before, but I strongly believe that Sat-navs have lead to a massive drop in the standard of driving. People just don't seem to observe signs anymore because their satnav.
IMHO I dont think having something show you the road layout ahead and assisting with your navigation and advising which lane to be in, has anything to do with the standard of driving.
Having a a deceptively fast comfortable sofa / white good being driven by someone with very little interest in driving other than going from a to b and is more interested in what playing on the Harmon Kardon is possibly the issue.
Electric cars with 0-60 performance times of latter day rally cars also probably don't help 🙂