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Our family has had two cars keyed multiple times in a kerbside parking spot outside our house. After two incidents in one day we rigged up a CCTV camera and caught the culprit doing it within an hour. We ran out the house to confront a lady, hippyish 71 years of age, to see what she had to say. She immediately started saying she was looking for a black cat but then when I asked why she was keying the car became hyper aggressive and sweary trying to deny it. She also said that she'd been in the pub all afternoon so how could it be her ? Essentially it was an incoherent, drunken rant.
Through a bit of amateur detective work we have her name and also the flat number in the sheltered housing at the end of our road. A police case has been opened but what happens now ? It's highly likely that she's got no money to pay for the badly damaged cars . Will it go to court ?
I noticed another neighbours car with a key mark down it this morning.
Good luck, but it seems doubtful you'll get your repairs paid for. Hopefully whatever police or court action is taken will at least scare her into stopping. But it sounds like she's got some addiction (and maybe other) issues, so there's no guarantee she'll stop. Crap situation.
It might go to court depending on how her mental state is viewed / assessed. Probably it will in my guess
You also have the option of a civil case for damages. who knows how much money she has stashed - if she sold a house to go into sheltered accommodation she might have loads
Otherwise - this is what insurance is for
I suspect that even if you win even court case and she has to pay for repairs and costs, given her situation you will get something like £5 a month until the £X,XXX is paid off.
Perhaps use tha Police Case number to get the insurance to pay out and then try to engage with the lady to understand why she is doing it and to persuade her that there are better things she can do?
Your insurance company may pursue her more successfully than you can after they have paid you. Either way i wouldn't go down the civil recovery route. My worry is what are the police / care home doing to stop this happening again? Do you know what the motivation was, pavement parking for example? Or is she just on some nutty crusade?
Pretty much what TJ said. If it was in Scotland the police would report to the procurator fiscal, the PF would probably pursue for malicious damage (equiv to crim. damage in E&W), they may offer a non-court resolution if she’s a first offender, not denying it, has the funds and you’ve made clear your priority is the cost rather than retribution. If they don’t do that or she refuses, case goes to court. Eventually it might get to trial (if she still denies it) but that could easily be 18 months from now. You would need to give evidence. Then IF convicted one option available to the court is to make her pay compensation, but unless she’s cash rich, probably will take a couple of years before you see the money. So could be 3-4 yrs after the offence before you get a penny, and lots of opportunities along the way for someone to use their discretion and decide she’s got MH issues, no money etc and there’s a better way to resolve (or for an old woman with alcohol issues to die), or a lawyer to find an evidence issue etc.
you could pursue a civil case - but if she’s denying the criminal matter might need that to resolve before a decision. Then if you win that, you’ll need to actually extract the money which will be a lot of hassle unless she cooperates.
situation in E&W will be similar but with even bigger court backlogs!
Personally I’d claim on insurance, make sure the police know the excess cost so if the court want to impose a compensation order they have a figure to use, then move on. Being angry about it for months or years probably does you more harm than her. I’d also wonder if there was a specific reason your vehicle was targeted. That’s not to excuse what she has done - but usually there’s a reason if it’s a neighbour (bad driving, loud noise, poor parking) and they’ve done one specific car, and no real MH issue.
Her motivation, if I were to use twisted logic and have guess, is possibly that she and her husband on crutches walk up and down the road multiple times a day instead of using the path next to it. They would have to walk around the car on their journey. It's a kerbside spot that loads of people use. Not obstructive in any way and no wheels on the kerb as it's banked grass. My guess is lots of cars have been done.
She is without doubt a nutter with issues.
well yes but depending on specifics might be treated as a fault claim and/or OP may lose no-claims as no other insurance to claim against. Plus if it happens again after getting fixed it’s going to get real old real fast. So ideally needs to be nipped in the bud and not just ignored. Or OP will just have to park elsewhere 🤷♂️this is what insurance is for
ok now I’m confused. How/where are you actually parked? Legally?It’s a kerbside spot that loads of people use. Not obstructive in any way and no wheels on the kerb as it’s banked grass.
Leave it with the police but check with them time to time to make sure theres at least a bit of progress. Maybe even try to get a crime number or such on the pretext of giving that to your insurance company, where at least this will show them its not some random scrote and the culprit has been caught.
Keep the cctv running just in case she'd not convinced she's in the wrong. And possibly even report her to social services. If she has a severely disabled husband, is she really competent to look after him, and maybe more help is required.
I suppose maybe the stress of an ailing husband is doing more to cause this that old age as 71 is hardly ancient.
Ok, I'm detecting an undercurrent of victim blaming here. Let me try to clear up some specifics.
It's a cul de sac. The sheltered housing is at the end. All the other houses are down one side of the road, of which we are one. The side of the road without housing is kerbed with a grassy strip of approximately one meter and then the pathway the other side. This is where cars park alongside the kerb and the incident occurred. At the moment there are three cars parked there, each of them likely candidates for a good keying.
My dad was visiting for an hour yesterday and got keyed . She's indiscriminate. She can't see what car is with what house from where she lives.
Definitely one for the police. All incidences need reporting. It's not going to end well for anyone as the multiple instances will put everyone's premiums up (postcode rating).
CCTV and signage is a very good idea.
You'll need to report it to your insurer as a malicious damage incident. They'll treat it as fault unless they can recover the costs from the person responsible. So the police details and investigation etc are going to be very important I'd say.
Dogshit through her letterbox?
Shout 'you filthy old bag' whenever you see her?
Ok, I’m detecting an undercurrent of victim blaming here
Yes, I can see how that might be inferred from my post, maybe others. I was asking more in the context of whether there is anything else you could do to avoid a repeat, the legal system isn't going to help much and not having it happen time after time has to be your first priority. From what you've described you are parking fully on the road, there is a kerb and grass strip between your car and the pavement, so probably short of parking somewhere else not a lot you can change.
Personally I'd like the system to come down her like a tonne of bricks, what colour of bricks would depend on her mental capacity, but too much crime and is left on the shoulders of victims because mental health issues. Doesn't get your car repaired does it but it's a lot easier for the authorities to not tackle the problems.
No worries Stumpyjon. As you suggested all cars are now parked elsewhere. I have now become a curtain twitcher concerned for the other cars parked on the same stretch. Hopefully being caught and confronted yesterday will put an end to it but witnessing her reaction I'm not so sure.
is possibly that she and her husband on crutches walk up and down the road multiple times a day instead of using the path next to it. They would have to walk around the car on their journey
just a thought looking for her motivation - is the footpath bit actually suitable to walk on if you have mobility issues - ie broken and uneven ground rather than the nice smooth road? or is the pavement blocked in other sections?
TJ, the footpath is fine however given his mobility issues I'm sure the road is the easier option with no drop kerbs or slopes to navigate. It's a very quiet road and most people, including myself, walk on the road with no issue.
Re insurance, my policy (LV) says that for damage caused by vandalism you pay the excess but don't lose your NCD. Other policies will be different, and the cost may not exceed the excess.
Get the kids to throw dirtballs at her.
Destroy her. Socially, mentally and physically.
Sheltered housing? Talk to the organisation, or the warden if there's one. There may be other examples of anti-social behaviour that could make this the tipping point for them, or they may be able to offer up a bit more of a reason for it.
Important to get the police involved, a formal caution (if you have solid video) and a stern word from a copper may help, and it will be on record for future scrapes. Also any warden at the accommodation.
Wouldn't this be almost textbook ASBO territory? They're not just for youngsters! 😃
Leave savage comments on her social media posts.
Destroy her. Socially, mentally and physically.
Calm down dear.
It's a criminal matter, and for the courts to decide culpability. Leave it for the police to sort.
Wouldn’t this be almost textbook ASBO territory? They’re not just for youngsters!
I seem to recall that at one point more pensioners had ASBOs than teenagers, which was probably just an urban myth.
Wouldn’t this be almost textbook ASBO territory? They’re not just for youngsters! 😃
Asbo’s no longer exist in England (and we’re always used differently in Scotland). There are replacements but: 1. They would be looking for a pattern of behaviour; 2. The most common order would be to ban someone from the area. If it’s a cup-de-sac that she lives on that sounds like it would not be viable. Regardless, without cops available to enforce it an ASBO is worthless.
to be 100% clear I was not victim blaming earlier, but the vast majority of malicious damage committed by people over 25 is done with a “purpose” / “reason” rather than random/bored/fun.
If you parked at a location that is not meant for parking or blocking their path etc
Then nothing much you can do apart from going by the law and probably end up having to claim insurance.
Alternatively, assuming she is mentally well and she did it to teach you a lesson ... (not recommended but if you have red mist or suffer from mental health as a consequences of her action then let it out)
Destroy her. Socially, mentally and physically.
Remember to tell her to show appreciation for your efforts.
Does the sheltered accommodation have a lawn? Sausages etc.
Being serious though it sounds as though she has some issues, so I'd personally use your insurance for the car and talk to the home management about it, there are probably ways for them to deal with this that are far more appropriate than anything the police could do (if she's routinely keying cars then presumably she doesn't have much respect for the rules / the law etc).
Re the parking spot - OP, any chance of putting a picture up? Not victim blaming, but just wondering what might have triggered her / how to avoid it without resorting to parking on another street.
If it’s a cup-de-sac that she lives on that sounds like it would not be viable.
Let's be clear - I'm in no way advocating tea-bagging her.
Re insurance, my policy (LV) says that for damage caused by vandalism you pay the excess but don’t lose your NCD.
Don't make the mistake of thinking you won't still be penalised though. NCD is just one aspect of insurance rating, they will also rate on actual claims count too. In your case this should be a non-fault claim - so lower penalty than an accident - but you'll probably still see an increase in future years nonetheless.
You can play around with some quotes on a price comparison website to see what the likely difference will be before deciding whether it's worth claiming or not. Bear in mind that insurers typically consider 3 years of claim history.
It's a shit situation, but my instinct is that it's probably not worth claiming on insurance.
Frozen sausages
I wouldn't claim for damage, more than 2 claims in a 5 year period (maybe 3?) could mean you become uninsurable for some providers
as for the women, sucks but doubt there is much that can be done
I would find her family and make them aware, she may get sectioned or a restraining order. Get her family to get to the underlying issue. I wouldn't claim on insurance, or get into a dispute with an unstable local person who knows where you live. She may escalate the situation and do something really stupid.
How do you know she is 71 which seems fairly precise?
I'd suggest go along to the care home, ask to dpeak to management. Tell them you have proof and you want either the home/accommodation or her family to cover all your costs to repair your car to original standard (i.e. proper repair, not dome cheap fix) rather than you go down "official" route which may be overly stressful for the old woman. Make it their problem, and make it very clear that their failure to act will result in her facing a lot of stress as a result of that failure. Do they want that on them?
you want either the home/accommodation or her family to cover all your costs to repair your car to original standard
Pretty sure a sheltered housing provider isn't legally responsible for the actions of its residents, especially those that take place off the premises.
Nor has her family. The home has no responsibility and if you try that any reputable home will tell you where to go.
Bum her dog and then leave a scathing review on TripAdvisor.
Lots of people talking about motivations. She's likely mentally ill, no more no less. Probably at least as much of a victim as the OP.
Someone once did all the cars on our street top to bottom (or I suppose, bottom to top) and that was a two mile long road I lived on about half of which was populated. There doesn't have to be a reason, some people are unhinged, some are just horrible.
Motivation doesn't matter here. What matters is repairs and prevention of reoccurrence. I'd be tempted just to park elsewhere, the choice of protecting my property vs letting her 'win' is a quandary.
You can DIY small claims if you want to do a civil claim without paying a lawyer, just make sure you follow the process exactly (assuming you have evidence of scratch, evidence your loss etc, it will be decided on the balance of probabilities, not innocent until proven guilty like criminal)
You can keep reporting each incident to the police, make sure you hit the right key words so its recorded as a crime, not just a civil matter. Be aware they are rather under resourced, its unlikely to be a priority.
Also worth considering if you want a pissed off lunatic who knows where you live, and whether you want the agro/stress/time etc.
If you buy a machine dual action polisher for about £90 you could get the scratches out in maybe 10 minutes per car. Obviously you can't just keep doing that forever as you'll have no paint left, but there's no need for half the street to go through insurance and bump everyone's premiums
Lots of people talking about motivations. She’s likely mentally ill, no more no less.
a massive assumption that just because someone behaves in an irrational manner they are mentally ill. Often people who find themselves involved in the criminal justice system do have mental health issues, but there’s a fair number who are just angry.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Motivation doesn’t matter here. What matters is repairs and prevention of reoccurrence.</span>
id say if you want to prevent reoccurrence, or indeed escalation, then understanding why would be a good first step. It might be that where the car is parked causes a problem and she gains some satisfaction with it, but it could be she has a problem with the people and if the car’s not there the front door is next, or of course she might be all over the neighbourhood as part of the geriatric branch of just stop oil, or she thinks these are non-resident cars that shouldn’t be there. Neighbours who behave quite oddly keep courts across the country busy - some are genuinely mentally ill (you’d hope that the “system” would intervene but it all too often misses the opportunity) but some are just nasty. Being an older woman definitely does not exclude you from the latter - indeed it might make it more likely you’ve never either been thumped or arrested for your behaviour in the past and learned from it.
You need to get this sorted because your postcode will be adversely affected when the various recipients of her attentions notify their insurance companies on claiming/renewal
Is her home LA-run and is there some mechanism to get accommodation more appropriate to their needs, whether that be access/mobility or mental health/ASB?
Awaits flaming 🙂
Re insurance, my policy (LV) says that for damage caused by vandalism you pay the excess but don’t lose your NCD. Other policies will be different, and the cost may not exceed the excess.
Was my experience also.
Went to a tri club social, all the cars belonging to all the attendees were keyed, and for some of us, a bonus ball -having all four tyres slashed.
Turned out one of the members (completely unrelated to us except by dint of belonging to the same tri club) had a stalker.
Police were involved so we had incident number and so forth.
timba - why do you think the accommodation is not appropriate? why do you think anyone else has the right to say what is appropriate? Just because you are old does not mean that others have the right to remove your rights. Just because you are a bit odd does not mean you are not competent to take decisions
English and scots law is a bit different but the key factor is " Is the person able to understand the consequences of their decisions" so in this case if you say to the woman " keying cars could end up with you being arrested" and her reply is " don't care if I go to jail, I hate seeing those cars there" this is a competent decision by her to key the cars! A decision or action can be irrational and competent at the same time!
Taking someones rights away is a huge thing to do and not done lightly
Not read the whole thread since last time I posted but have we got to "Nuke her from space" territory yet?
Had a big run in with them yesterday. We obviously don't park there anymore and now park the cars down a small side road which we can see from the front of our house. My son and his friend picked them up on the CCTV camera and sure enough they turned off down the side road. The boys, 19 years old and both over 6 foot, went flying out the door after them. Worried that they would get themselves in trouble I followed shortly after. What actually happened was the boys were standing there watching while the other pair , very drunk, shouted and swore at them accusing them of harassing them. She had keys in hand. I've had enough of this now and it quickly turned into a shouting match. I had to walk away as it crossed my mind (for a split second) to punch her lights out. The whole thing is starting to consume me.
Sorry if I missed this, but have you actually spoken to the police yet?
Because you clearly need to.
I had to walk away as it crossed my mind (for a split second) to punch her lights out
yeah…don’t do this
i remember some moron threw a bottle out their (closed) third floor flat window and it and all the window glass landed on my car below. Called the police and despite it being very obvious who had done it (the clue was their smashed window) there were no charge brought. And even if there had been, I was told at best I’d be getting a few quid a week for the rest of eternity..
YOU need to contact the police over the latest incident and keep on pressuring them. This will be low priority for them and unfortunately the squeaking gate gets the grease
timba – why do you think the accommodation is not appropriate
Because repeated incidents of a criminal/ASB nature are happening.
That's impacting other residents, who also have human rights. It isn't spite (thanks for that - not aimed at you tj), it's common sense. If she/they have needs then they must be met and they clearly aren't.
This is way beyond NIMBY-ism
The police are aware and we have a reference number for the case. I'm going to the station now to give them the names and address of offending couple.
Had you had any previous interaction with this person/these people before the incident in your OP? If you have moved your car down a side street and she/they then go looking for it, key in hand it does sound like a very personal grudge?
It all sounds pretty unpleasant and I hope the police take action.
Lots of angry spiteful vindictive people around, and most of them voted leave.
Grow up.
Blokeuptheroad, no there was no previous interaction with them at all before the keying incidents. After two face to face confrontations it's most definitely personal now.
👍 best of luck in getting it sorted.
When at the station, ask the police what you should do if you catch them going to do it again.
Sorry Timba - the home has no responsibility for her actions and under what sort of legislation do yo think anyone could enforce a move for her behaviour?
If she/they have needs then they must be met and they clearly aren’t.
Again - her behaviour outside the home does not show her needs are not being met in any way. Indeed stopping her going outside would be clearly illegal ( under Scots law anyway) as would forcing her to move accommodation.
Even the mental health acts would be very hard to use in this situation
Not the home and not MH legislation, the local authority (LA)... Englandshire advice
Timba - useful info there for the OP. Be a long and complex road to go down to have her evicted even if possible at all. Its a really complex and difficult area. I guess my point was around the " her needs not being met" which is an entirely different thing to action for antisocial behaviour
Jesus @ latest incident.
Lots of angry spiteful vindictive people around, and most of them voted leave.
I bet you're a real blast at parties.
Were you at a wedding near Newport this past week? There was a real bore talking politics there too.
What actually happened was the boys were standing there watching while the other pair , very drunk, shouted and swore at them accusing them of harassing them. She had keys in hand
Jesus wept. What a pair of c*ckwombles.
Does your CCTV record sound as well as video? Audio might help with a 'malicious intent' angle if you needed it.
I can only suggest dashcamming your motor up to the nines because you're likely to need that footage, if nothing else it will go toward keeping insurance happy when you claim.
Any mileage in talking to the pub?
Guide to dealing with drunkenness in licensed premises
It sounds a nightmare, I hope you get it sorted.
a massive assumption that just because someone behaves in an irrational manner they are mentally ill.
True. But this is the Internet, massive assumptions are part of the discourse when all you have to go on is what is disclosed in a forum post.
Keying a car could be for any number of reasons. But keying all the cars regularly, there's something awry upstairs.
She had keys in hand.
Just holding them normally, or like clenched fist with keys sticking out between fingers?
Not all pensioners are doddery frail old fools, I've known some tasty ones. Few people in Burnley won't know of Jimmy Satan. Nice guy, I've had a pint with him, but you don't get a name like that without earning it. He frequented a biker bar full of metalheads and they were all frightened to death of him.
Asked the wife about this (she works in a residential home for acute mental illness - schizophrenia, voice controlled disorders etc). They fairly regularly deal with neighbours who have suffered property damage at the hands of residents (some are on semi free to roam/supported living arrangements) and what they do is reimburse victim losses then add the bill to the client account. This protects both local relationships with the community but also insulates the residents from legal action, as theoretically, you could now pass on the old woman's details to your insurers and they could pursue her for reimbursement plus costs.
So while the home may not (as TJ says) have a legal responsibility, it may be you can apply pressure on them to cover your losses and recoup, rather than have someone in their care face the stress of being pursued by an insurance company with a load of extra costs added on for legal process etc.
Even if you aren't pursuing the home for anything, it's likely sensible to make them aware it's happening. At the very least, I can't see immediately any downsides to doing so.
I have no idea what the home may or may not be able to do, but it's certainly "nothing" if they're oblivious to what's going on.
Sheltered housing isn't necessarily a care-home; it could literally be a series of warden overseen bunglaows for independent living. If this is the case - and as I mentioned earlier in the thread - then the landlord (council or charity, for example) may already have had issues with these tenants. They can absolutely be evicted, and no doubt anti-social behaviour would be a strong enough reason. They have a duty of care to their residents, but also to the local community.
The sheltered housing is four small blocks of flats for independent living. Mostly old folk, some people with physical disabilities and a family from Hong Kong that I think are refugees. It's a good little set up, nicely kept, lawned gardens for the residents etc. and generally everyone gets on fine. For years I would have said it's good example of how to make social housing work.
In which case it sounds like the sort of place which would want to know.
Plus they might seek to relocate problem residents to somewhere more appropriate.
I am absolutely gobsmacked by that response from andyrm. Not that I doubt its happening but IMO its such a flagrant breech of the ethical standards I would be working to and indeed would be legally obliged to work to. So easily open to abuses. I can only assume its a private company sub contracting to the state and that is built into the contracts signed and also folk there are perhaps detained under the mental health acts.
Couple of decades ago, there was a big upsurge in mirror damage, cars getting 'knocked' by rubbish bins - wiper damage - next to a hospice in Edinburgh. Was months before culprit was identified - a slightly demented elderly woman who took offence to folk parking outside 'her' house.
Fast forward a decade - she dies, house is bought by hospice for admin. block.
Karma!