[Closed] Cars engines that 'turn off' when in stationary traffic

75k and still on the original starter motor in my BMW..
mind you, it is the size you'd normally fit to an HGV, with a battery to suit.

I was wondering that. Our Golf has this feature and it does seem a good idea - I'm guessing that a different starter is used or maybe they're just a lot better than they used to be.

They don't have the same starting system as normal cars.

I have to laugh when people think they've uncovered a major flaw in something that teams of engineers have been working on for years after a few moments idle pondering in a traffic jam.

Freeagent - When they both die, have you had a look what the replacement costs are yet ?

Ive often thought that..

And?

I've no idea, but it means my company car is very, very cheap, so I'm happy...

Mol - I'm glad I provided you with a little laugh at this time in the morning. How does the 'starting system' differ from an f'ing big battery and electirc motor that engages with the engine ?

The stop / start I can live with as it doesn't kick in often.

The electronic handbrake on the other hand. Such a non solution to a non problem I'll not be buying another car with one.

Bigger, stronger, higher spec. How does a wind tunnel differ from a hair drier?

Mol - Ive never been in a wind tunnel, but I suppose they dont specifically heat up the air before blowing it. 😀

Bigger and stronger generally means more expensive (in money and environmental impact)to build and replace, which was kind of the point of raising the issue

Bigger and stronger generally means more expensive

Well you know the price of the car, take your pick.

I doubt that a slightly better engineered an rearranged electric motor (which are pretty simple components) is going to make much dent in the manufacturing footprint of a whole car - which is huge.

If you live in London or LA or somewhere else with massive traffic jams, it could save a hell of a lot in purely wasted fuel though.

Stop/start technology is just another last-gasp attempt to prolong the insistance on petrol engines before the motor industry admits internal combustion is out-of-date technology, and they should stop flogging a dying horse, fingers in ears going "la-la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you" & wasting everyone's time and just concentrate all their efforts on making electric vehicles

😀

If you live in London or LA or somewhere else with massive traffic jams, it could save a hell of a lot in purely wasted fuel though.

If you live in London or LA or somewhere else with massive traffic jams, why on earth do you still insist on driving a car ????!!

Freeagent - When they both die, have you had a look what the replacement costs are yet ?

No idea - it is a company car that'll be off to the auctions when it gets to 4 years old...

Bigger, stronger, higher spec.

I have to laugh when something that teams of engineers have been working years on can be summed up by a knowitall forumite as being bigger, stronger and a higher spec.

Have a look here:

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/truth-or-myth-whats-the-science

Mol - Ive never been in a wind tunnel, but I suppose they dont specifically heat up the air before blowing it.

Quite. some of them actually cool the air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_transonic_wind_tunnel

£40 per year tax 🙂

Seems to work fine on my Passat, and I can still beat most dozy drivers off the line 🙂

And auto handbrake is ace, I wish it had an auto gear box too, and adaptive cruise control, then it would be a truly amazing car instead of just great for shleping around the country in.

Not being an engineer, or a mechanic, but being on STW, I'm perfectly qualified to comment.

I would not be surprised, if it WAS less economical and rather a product that has been created to generate a perceived need, rather than meet a demand.

Mine counts how many seconds it's been 'off' for. There has to be a point at which the engine being off becomes an economical saving, but funnily enough there is no mention of what that is anywhere in the literature (yes, I did look!).

Plus, I manage to unintentionally trick mine a few times a week where the engine shouldn't be off and I find myself pumping the damned clutch to get it to start again.

I'm more impressed that all the other functions (power steering etc) continue to work. How much power does that take?!

We had an old (B Suffix) Polo that did this. Worked a treat, though it used to eat batteries in the winter.

I have to laugh when people think they've uncovered a major flaw in something that teams of engineers have been working on for years after a few moments idle pondering in a traffic jam.

Oh the ironing ..... Had to be you that wrote that mol.

Made my morning ...... ( its only 4 am so its the first thing ive found amusing today. )

[i]Stop/start technology is just another last-gasp attempt to prolong the insistance on petrol engines before the motor industry admits internal combustion is out-of-date technology, and they should stop flogging a dying horse, fingers in ears going "la-la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you" & wasting everyone's time and just concentrate all their efforts on making electric vehicles[/i]

Eh, stop-start has been in cars for years - or am I the only one old enough to remember the VW Formel E cars?

As for electric, I don't think anyone is not concentrating on it, as the company that makes the breakthrough (range vs charge-time) will be 'made'.

The electronic handbrake on the other hand. Such a non solution to a non problem I'll not be buying another car with one.

We turned down a passat for this reason...

There has to be a point at which the engine being off becomes an economical saving, but funnily enough there is no mention of what that is anywhere in the literature (yes, I did look!).

DrP

*By auto, I mean, manual. Me.

(B Suffix) Polo

Polob?

I have to laugh when something that teams of engineers have been working years on can be summed up by a knowitall forumite as being bigger, stronger and a higher spec

The OP alleged all starters and batteries were the same. I suggested (simply) a few ways that they possibly could differ.

Using the starter for stop start system is noisy and slow to re start , psa use a 3 phase altanator , restarts silently , much better and quieter !!! @ £500 optional extra

If you live in London or LA or somewhere else with massive traffic jams, why on earth do you still insist on driving a car ????!

Ever been to LA?

My stop-start doesn't work until the engine has warmed up properly, and doesn't work at all if the temp is below 4 degrees. It also re-starts the engine automatically in the summer if the cabin is getting too hot, so it can put the air-con back on.

Clever eh!

Also, there could be good use of a flywheel type thing, thus not relying on an electric motor so much.

My 52 plate banger Astra has a KERS/boost system*, similar to formula one cars, that gives it a boost of speed.

DrP

*By KERS system, I mean an accelerator.

molgrips - Member

I have to laugh when people think they've uncovered a major flaw in something that teams of engineers have been working on for years after a few moments idle pondering in a traffic jam.

I have to laugh when people blindly accept everything presented to them.
You're probably the type to pay extra for "long life oil", or maybe you go to church.

Questioning things is the product of a healthy mind, and doesn't make you a tin foil hat wearer, or an idiot.

The OP alleged all starters and batteries were the same. I suggested (simply) a few ways that they possibly could differ.

Wow, this is all new to me, I simply thought they'd dumbed down the driving test so much that stalling the engine at lights / junctions / traffic has become normal behaviour.

DrP's car is teh awesum 🙂

My midget had it and that's from the 70's.

Well it had half, I set the idle badly and the carbs weren't ballanced so it would stall when you came to a stop.

I have to laugh when people blindly accept everything presented to them.

Lol.. you're accusing me of this! 🙂

My original point was to do exactly as you suggest and think a bit more about the subject.

Cars are very reliable in general, and compared to even 20 years ago. Almost all the time you get in, and a complicated machines starts up first time. It's big business, and they employ a lot of people to design the smallest details of their cars to achieve this.

So it seems unlikely that they'd just use the normal starter motor for the start/stop function, if it was going to fail all over the place. My point is that you should not assume that the starter motor is going to fail more often than any other component simply because it gets used more. It may turn out to be true, I don't know, but I think it extremely unlikely that they would not have considered this.

You're probably the type to pay extra for "long life oil", or maybe you go to church.

um, well Oil, like fuel comes in all sorts of guises, some better, some not so much. Those that are generally more expensive are "that much better" and will generally last longer given the ocndiotions they work in at the performance they are supposed to. I can happily explain if you wish...?

Unsure - but I am getting 48mpg generally in town traffic in a car that does 0-60 in 7sec. I am not grumbling!

Cars are very reliable in general, and compared to even 20 years ago. Almost all the time you get in, and a complicated machines starts up first time. It's big business, and they employ a lot of people to design the smallest details of their cars to achieve this.

So it seems unlikely that they'd just use the normal starter motor for the start/stop function, if it was going to fail all over the place. My point is that you should not assume that the starter motor is going to fail more often than any other component simply because it gets used more. It may turn out to be true, I don't know, but I think it extremely unlikely that they would not have considered this.

I drive one of the most reliable cars ever made, and it happens to be nearing twenty years old.
But here are three words to counter your thinking:
Dual mass flywheels.

Check and mate. 😉

I've worked in manufacturing for most of my adult life, and have made a not inconsiderable number of parts for the automotive industry.
It may surprise you to learn that the life expectancy of cars is actually decreasing, and there is more money to be made in supplying replacement parts than there is in the original sale of cars.

Sui - Member

um, well Oil, like fuel comes in all sorts of guises, some better, some not so much. Those that are generally more expensive are "that much better" and will generally last longer given the ocndiotions they work in at the performance they are supposed to. I can happily explain if you wish...?

Yes, please explain how the long life oils will out perform the ester based Silkolene Pro-S 5w-40 that I run in my Datsun.
I suppose you could reduce the shear effect on the carbon chains by decreasing the difference between the winter and normal ratings of the oil, but then you'd end up with an oil that either wouldn't lubricate the engine when cold as efficiently or one that would fail to protect at the upper limits of the engines operating temperatures.
Over to you...

I'm more impressed that all the other functions (power steering etc) continue to work. How much power does that take?!

Well, being as you're not moving you won't be needing the steering I imagine. And even if you did it could be run electronically. As could every other function in the car.... 🙂

You're probably the type to pay extra for "long life oil",

I use long life spec oil because my Passat is on long life service intervals and I believe it is required. It saves money at any rate cos I get 18k between services. Don't think it costs me much extra at the garage though.

What the hell do you do with your starter motors to be concerned about replacing them on a regular basis?

I've never had to replace one in 20 years of driving.

We have stop / start on the wife's car and works great apart from the very occasional moment when if you try and start it just as its stopped it takes a couple of seconds.

For me this isn't even a concern.

how is it when you are turning (particularly going right across the traffic) and you stop/pause for a few seconds waiting for a gap? does the engine cut out and then need to restart again?

I believe it only stops when you put the car in neutral, no?

Or in the case of an auto, it stops when you actually stop, but starts again when you lift off the footbrake so that it's going by the time you get to the throttle...?

You need ot look at the add packs involved - like i said if you are already using a premium brnad oil then you are in effect using a longer life oil.

You may have emulsifiers (stops the soapy, clouding effect), anitfoaming agents (stops foaming, therfore decreasing the chance of pitting on contact surfaces as you will get air pockets therefore no lubrication), anti oxidant (stops it from oxidising and breaking down, often used with... metal deactivators (metal is a catalyst for oxidation as well, can alos stop the metal from polarising onto surfaces), viscosity modifiers (changes viscosity, i.e. it's fluidity at certian temperatures under certain conditions, pour point surpresents useful in cold weather, will also affect viscosity- all of the above may or may not be present in "longer life" of "premium brand" oils.

thats not too bad then, i've never driven a car with auto-stop so wasnt sure how it worked

Omar - ours doesn't, it only cuts out when the car is put in neutral. Therefore if you stop to turn right and keep it in gear the engine keeps running.

Ok so Sui - is Castrol Edge worth it for normal cars? It looks like it lasts well.

@Sui and @Sbob - there's only one way to solve this...

[img] [/img]

Imo long life services are the con not the oil.

in a word yes, as is a decent fuel from one of the "majors". It's like fairy washing up liquid - poeple can't be arsed to pay 20pence more per bottle, but will happily buy 10 bottle of shiit vs 1 bottle of fairy - (ok so not strictly the same, but the thought is there).

All, well most, oils are the same base component - Base Ols grades 1-3 (there are others), grades 2 and 3 and a mixture of them are the most common now. The only thing that sets lubs apart is additive packs as breifly explained above -and there is a HUGE amount of work done on this. especially now where bio is in fuel. Diesels in particular as diesel will get past the psiton ring seals and flood the sump, this is a huge problem and additives are trying (allthough not particularly well) to comabt the effect of bio on oil (it emulsifies, sludges) and generally stops working if it's a cheap one!

im only fighting if it involves luuuuuubes 🙂

Ah yes , i bring up the supermarket fuel issue often and get mocked for tin foil hat effect.

Still not seen anything that convinces me bio is good .....

My mpg is lower , my filter gets sludged quicker ( with my car it noticibly drops power when filters plugging)

Its not even that much cheaper if you look in the right places

Imo long life services are the con not the oil.

Why so?

I have used Edge in the Prius btw, it comes out looking basically the same as when it went in. Prius is good to its engine.

Still not seen anything that convinces me bio is good .....

Are you talking about biodiesel? A good way to recycle used cooking oil, not a good use of quality arable land.

TR - you are right it's not Tin Foil Hat stuff - again additives - supermarkets purchase the cheapest of the terminal stuff possible, sans add packs where possible.

this has gone drastically off topic, so to get back on - Start Stop stuff been around for ages, uses different technology to "normal" starters, is on both petrol and diesel, is efficient after X number of seconds,cann imagine it being a right pain in the arris if it goes wrong (which will always happen at the most in opportune moment)

molgrips - Member

I get 18k between services.

I also don't have to service my car regularly enough if I don't want to.
💡

Yep i dont have to change my oil every 10k - nothing tells me too ... But i do it because its good for the engine.

And sui it wouldnt be stw if it didmt go drasticly off topic , i expect we will be talking about daily mail readers , ales , whiskys amd woodburners before this topics finished.

Sui - Member

like i said if you are already using a premium brand oil then you are in effect using a longer life oil.

But the oil I use, which is about as good as you can get, won't last molgrips' quoted 18,000 miles.

Cars aren't expected to last as long any more; gone are the days when I remember no-one in my street owning a new car.
Cars are now disposable.
Which is why molgrips is foolish to think that every new innovation introduced to modern cars is better/more reliable/more economical, which was my original point.

I also don't have to service my car regularly enough if I don't want to.

You don't think I should pay attention to the long life service indicator? Do you think it just comes on at a random point that's more than 10k miles?

Oil degrades quicker under certain conditions than others. Long life servicing measures the oil temperature and engine revs and calculates how long oil is likely to last given the driving you do. If you do lots of motorway miles as I do, it lasts much longer. Which is why I switched to long life schedule.

maybe the oil is changed in between 18K??, you'll also be topping up oil during this period as well. I agree 18K is a very long time for oil to last, but Castrol, Mobile 1 etc will last better (perform better) over this period than a Halfords job.

So to summarise,

Mol, and a few others who have company cars think its ace, because the Engineers say so and / or there isnt a long term financial penalty.
You can mimmick the effect by turning the key on and off or by setting the carb's up badly
It might be worth the cost if your driving involves lots of 'long' stops.

But we dont know how long the 'long' stop has to be ?

Wat you will find is that by the time the problems occur with your service schedule , it will be long out of warrenty so they dont really give a shite how often you change the oil 🙂

molgrips - Member

in the Prius

Ahhh, it suddenly becomes clear. 😆

I will add, the Silkolene that you use, as neither of us (unless you work for them) know what add packs are used we cannot be certain that it is any better than others, indeed it may be that others will perform better.

One point to note, if the oil is fully synthetic, then the some of the [important to old engines] hydrocarbon chains have been removed through sever hydroprocessing this can effect seals and potentially cause leakes.

Something else I've remembered; when sat on M62 at a standstill (very rarely), sometimes, with no warning, handbrake button thing/auto-hold thing on and feet not on any pedals, it'll just start itself up! That's quite weird.

Oh, and..

Cars engines that 'turn off' hen in stationary traffic

maybe the oil is changed in between 18K??

No. It does need topping up.

Look, I've just activated the long life service schedule. You may think that VW have set this up deliberately to ruin their cars, I don't though 🙂

in the Prius

Ahhh, it suddenly becomes clear

Er does it? I have two cars, the Prius has had Edge in it when I did the changes, and the Passat is on long life service interval. Not seeing why I'm being stupid here.

Neither is a company car either.

Mol, and a few others who have company cars think its ace, because the Engineers say so

Er should I not listen to the advice from the people who make the car? Engineers don't know anything do they?

I did 80k in my last car without a service/oil change. Mitsubishi Space Star. 54 plate. I got 400 quid px last month for it.

how is it when you are turning (particularly going right across the traffic) and you stop/pause for a few seconds waiting for a gap? does the engine cut out and then need to restart again?

A lot of cars with stop start also look at the steering wheel angle and won't stop if it is turned over a certain amount - means it doesn't cut out for doing three point turns etc as well.

Which is why molgrips is foolish to think that every new innovation introduced to modern cars is better/more reliable/more economical, which was my original point.

Well....in general they probably are. Otherwise there wouldn't be that much point in introducing them. OK, a lot are introduced in order to give lower emissions in the test cycles, but that can still be translated to seeing better economy and emissions on the road. Stop start really does have a negligble effect on the starter - a lot use the alternator to start it, and even if it does use a 'normal' solenoid starter then as others have said it is hardly a part you are replacing often, if at all anyway so the extra few starts every day are really not going to influence it at all.

Your comment about DMFs is sort of fair enough in that they are probably one of the components with a higher failure rate, but they were introduced in order to satisfy consumers demand for Diesels with a less clattery feel - the component does it's job perfectly well, but by its very nature is prone to failure faster than a normal flywheel. You can't have it both ways unfortunately.

I would turn my engine on and off when at traffic lights and stopping in queues of traffic. I had my car 14 years and I never had to replace the starter motor. I did have to replace the battery once, which was hardly a huge amount of money. It used to start fine first time even up to the time I passed it on. I'm not sure what 'bigger and better' starter systems these cars which automatically do it have but I'm sure they're up to the job.

I also don't think that manufactures believe the lifetimes of their cars are really that long and hope most people will get a new one before the bits break. And if they do break, then they're happy making money for the parts.

Not sure why people would want to sit with a stationary car buring loads of expensive fuel for no reason at all.

Originally I had reservations about Hybrid Cars, I thought “oh another fad, here we go” But since buying Percy Prius I have been totally won over. It’s one of the quietist and smoothest cars I’ve driven in a long time. The transition from Leccy to Petrol is so smooth you’d not know it’d happened if it wasn’t for the dashboard telling you it had..
I’ve just test driven one of Lexus’s CT200h’s* and that is another step on from Percy Prius.. You can’t tell what mode the thing is in at all. Quite mental, no it really is. Driving around Tarn you have no idea what mode it’s in and TBH why would you want to know, I mean the cars clever enough to know what mode to play in, I’m just the fat lump in the drivers seat. The transition from Leccy to Petrol, well, it’s seamless. As for driving fast on motorways and the like it’s just like any other car and supposedly you get an extra boost from the Leccy motor if you “kick down”, not that I noticed, but again, why should I.
For that reason, I’m buying one.

*The Kyle Car

molgrips - Member

maybe the oil is changed in between 18K??

No. [b]It does need topping up[/b].

that was my point, in favour 😉

Speed - I'm interested how they use the alternator. I take it the alternator has a positive connection witht he crank via chain or cogs as apposed to the 'traditional' pulley ?

On those sorts of engines, do they fit a 'traditional' starter as well ?

Mol - You should listen, just not believe by default.

Longlife oils are used to increase the time between services which is great in theory in reducing the service cost of the modern vehicle. In reality your general punter is oblivious to the fact that in between service time (especially now they have increased) it is his/her responsibility to check various things on there car. But as their generally too bone idle to do so the increase in tyre wear on flat tyres (especially with the current trend in run flats) means increased cost in replaced tyres when they start moaning tyres are not lasting as long. Then the hidden cost extra mpg due to running on under inflated tyres oh and then there's the safety implications of all these vehicles running round on underinfated tyres.
As for auto stop start it's a great idea. if your engine runs a 800rpm at idle then if you can switch it off at every opportunity then why worry about the increased wear of a starter motor at a few hundred quid when not only have you saved a shed load on fuel but you've stopped a many thousand pound component wearing while your sat at the lights picking your nose 🙂

i'd quite like the Kyle car - especially if she comes with it 🙂

Lexus’s CT200h

Like.

Mol - You should listen, just not believe by default.

I spend most of my days reading up about whatever issue I am currently thinking about from as many sources as possible.

Oh and the Passat gives me a nice message on the dash when oil level is low (as opposed to pressure)

Speed - I'm interested how they use the alternator. I take it the alternator has a positive connection witht he crank via chain or cogs as apposed to the 'traditional' pulley ?

On those sorts of engines, do they fit a 'traditional' starter as well ?

Yeah, it's called an Integrated Starter Generator (ISG) and is basically an alternator that can also be spun up as well as being spun to generate energy. The connection to the engine is generally still belt drive and is part of the reason they are used as they are much quieter and gentler when re-starting the engine. As mentioned somewhere above, PSA are a big user of them in their stop-start engines (which in turn go in to lots of Ford products [diesels mainly]).

"I spend most of my days reading up about whatever issue I am currently thinking about from as many sources as possible."

Mean while you normally come up with the most aukward convouluted plan you can to achieve the same task.

Wot?

Mol - You should listen, just not believe by default.

I find it quite funny that those who chooses to believe and accept that an engineer has done their job properly in speccing and designing components for a car is the one who is 'in the wrong' and those believing that any new technology is some conspiracy to get you to buy more parts is in the right?! Most manufacturers are giving out longer and longer warranties - which generally means they wan't as little to go wrong as possible. OK, there are some quite complex systems on modern cars but they are still remarkably robust (which I can attest to as part of my job is making sure they are robust!). Of course one should do some research into a new technology, but to say that they only sensible view is a cynical one is a little bit short sighted.

[i]Mol - You should listen, just not believe by default. [/i]

From the man who's default is to argue, not listen 😉