[Closed] Career coach / CV writer

I have.

Think I paid £80 for someone to write up my CV, with a bit of email chit chat before hand. It was shit - but I work in a technical field, might have been better if it aimed a wider market. Ultimately canned about 90% of it.

Unless you're applying for identical jobs all the time I'd always suggest tailoring your CV to the job (in at least some shape or form, not necessarily the layout/main stuff).

There are loads of free examples of reasonable CVs out there. It should be relatively easy to fit one to your skillset/experineces (there is one site, I can't recall the URL of, that basically says heres an example of shopmanager CV, heres a software engineer CV etc.).

I would do it yourself and properly change it for each job.  Having just interviewed a bunch of people it wasn't the flash cvs that impressed, it was those where the people had bothered to work out who we were beyond just matching the job spec and then tailored their cv accordingly.

Oh, and obviously don't make the CV 17 pages long like one I had to read last week.....

Good covering letter might be more useful to pay for, but then again that can be very specific so I think pay for CV/covering letter stuff by all means but maybe have eyes open about the amount of work you may have to add to it on top.

I've looked at about 50 CV's in the last 8 weeks. Only one stands out as even half decent in terms of content, layout etc - I'm 99% sure he did that himself. Most of the others are a splurge of overly complex technical detail, in many cases which the candidate couldn't actually back up with substance. So if you do pay someone else to write it - for gods' sake make sure you read it and really can explain it. There might only be one or two words on you whole CV that stood out beyond the rest and got you the interview - don't ruin it by looking blankly at me when I ask you to explain that bit.

I'm not quite as obsessed with some people about tailoring CVs to jobs but its probably worth looking at the job spec and the CV and making sure anything listed there is obvious and consider reducing size/space of bits that are not. e.g. if you are a webdeveloper applying for a role asking for PHP, Javascript and CSS make sure those stand out. Your ReactNative, C, Word, Excel, Visual Basic, DOS, Bash etc may all be really interesting but if you bury the bit I'm looking for amongst them there's a chance you get binned in the time you have to make an impression.

You can make your covering letter stand out beyond 80% of others just by making it look like its had a modicum of design effort on it! Don't tell me in your CV you are "proficient in office" (really aren't 99% of people under 30?) and then produce a cover letter that's all 11pt Times New Roman with the address formatted in a mess etc! If you actually bother to mention say the top three things I've asked for and how your experience matches you are now in the top 5% of cover letters.

In terms of a "Career Coach", I'd say its a bit like "Lifestyle Coaches" - if they are so good at this thing - what the hell are the doing in a job like that talking to people who are "lost".

Unless you're aiming at submitting CVs to pretty generic type jobs, i'd do as others say and have a template that you update against each job, gone are the days of one CV that could be sent to 20 companies and get the same interest, it's all about reading the job advert and focusing your career, abilities, key achievements, etc around that job.

Depending on the industry, you can get assistance via many sources, google have loads of template, for my area, engineering, you can go on areas like the IET, IMechE, etc and get info in their forums and so on if you're a member.

Nobody reads CVs anymore, surely. I send a QR code that links to a podcast where i'm interviewed on my career history by a leading light in my professional field.

I think that writing the CV might be an important step in self reflection, and good warm up for the interview stages too.
If you can't sell your own skills, it'll be very difficult to find someone else to do it, even if they are paid.

My wife did as part of a redundancy package.

Close to 15 years at one of the large IT consultancies. She'd read lots of CVs when hiring but it still helped to talk it through and have some one ask pertinent questions and ask about specific skills and experience. Career coaching was good too. Worked through a series of excercises to understand what she wanted in a new role and some of the things to do in prep for conversations

I used some of it when I looked for a new role recently and thought it really helped.
It was little things that seem obvious but helped. For example, guidance on Linkedin (my future boss and peers looked me up), your "exit statement" as to why you were leaving, work around values, ambition and goals. Describing your skill sets and motivations etc. Basically being prepared for the obvious questions and having a story that fits together and sells you to an employer.

Having been on the hiring side, it's clear when someone has put in the work for that job application. You will often get to the point where standard answers should suffice but they haven't practiced them (because they are the obvious ones) so they stumble a little. If they had gone through then at least once then the interview would go much smoother. It's a coach that can help with that Shirley?

As for CV writing? As above. Do it yourself. It's the start of the process and allows you to look at yourself with that role in mind.

You can make your covering letter stand out beyond 80% of others

I'm not sure as I follow this. What is there to "stand out" about a covering letter? What are you looking for?

A covering letter is "Dear sirs, I'd like to formally apply for the role of Chief Ferret Wrestler as advertised in the July edition of Ferret Wrestlers' Monthly. Please find enclosed herewith a copy of my CV for your consideration. I'm available for interview anytime except Tuesdays. Love and kisses, Cougar." Anything further belongs on your CV, no?

Would the covering letter not highlight the relevant bit of the CV to more closely match the role? Then the rest of the CV will show the details and that you have been employed full time for the last 89 years without jumping from job to job with a 52 year "break".

Nobody reads CVs anymore, surely. I send a QR code that links to a podcast where i’m interviewed on my career history by a leading light in my professional field.

I skim read CVs, look at linked in and code contributions on places like github. Any application that required me to listen to a podcast would go straight in the bin for sure

As a hirer it's far easier to review a CV where someone has taken the time to look at the job description and then highlight how they fit and even address where they don't eg "7 years as a stoat boxing coach, which I believe would transfer well to ferret wrestling". Trying to piece together what someone has actually done from a generic CV with a morass of jargon is hard work and if I've got a lot of CVs to get through it just puts you at a disadvantage. And re-read stuff like your personal statement before applying - "seeking a more customer facing role" isn't a great objective to put when you've applied for a back office post!

Would the covering letter not highlight the relevant bit of the CV to more closely match the role?

Only if your CV needed editing. I guess this is the counterpoint to:

I’m not quite as obsessed with some people about tailoring CVs to jobs

So... if you're not tailoring your CV for the job, you need a covering letter to fill in the gaps; if you are editing your CV then you don't?

It seems weird to me that you'd submit two documents where one good one would suffice but, each to their own I suppose. Every recruiter is different and has different expectations, there's no single "right" way to do this.

As a professional writer/editor (not of CVs), I'd say to write it yourself but get someone with editing skillz to look it over after.

Basically, you are best-placed to determine the content and its relative importance, but it's highly likely an editor can make it more readable and coherent.

A good CV lays out your relevant experience, a good covering letter summarises it and explains why you should be considered for interview.

If you're not doing both then you're under selling yourself.

(I wouldn't listen to a podcast either)

It seems weird to me that you’d submit two documents where one good one would suffice but, each to their own I suppose.

Really?

A cover letter offers the opportunity to describe exactly how your skills, experience and interests make you a great candidate for the role - and to express a bit of your personality.

It's like a teaser for your CV. To get their attention.

Nobody reads CVs anymore, surely. I send a QR code that links to a podcast where i’m interviewed on my career history by a leading light in my professional field.

🙂

Leading lights are so last year, a nobel laureate is the minimum expected now.

It’s like a teaser for your CV. To get their attention.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I always tend to go for the CV first and then will generally look at the covering letter if they have demonstrated the essential skills for the role. Half the time the covering letter is just saying 'here's my CV' or 'please please please give me the job' and doesn't add anything to the CV so starting there is just a waste of time. If you're trying to get my attention just make sure your CV shows how you fit the vacancy I'm trying to fill.

A cover letter offers the opportunity to describe exactly how your skills, experience and interests make you a great candidate for the role – and to express a bit of your personality.

But that is precisely what your CV is for. If it's not doing that then it needs reworking so that it does. If your CV needs accompanying Cliff Notes then what you've got there is a crap CV. Sorry.

Your CV has one single purpose which is to secure you an interview invitation, that's it. It is your introduction to a company and an initial demonstration of why they might want to talk to you. If your introduction needs introducing then, well, it's suddenly turtles all the way down, do you also need a cover note to tease your covering letter?

Remember all those times you went for an interview and the recruiters had a big pile of covering letters on their desk? Me neither.

It’s like a teaser for your CV. To get their attention.

You already have their attention, they're recruiting and you've sent them a CV in response. They literally want to read it. If they aren't reading it then, again, the issue here is not a lack of a teaser trailer.

... IMHO, etc. As I said, there's no One Size Fits All 'right' answer here.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I always tend to go for the CV first

When I say covering letter, it's usually just a couple of paragraphs typed into a box on LinkedIn these days, but I have had it referenced in interviews.

And since your CV should match the required skills etc anyway, a letter can still serve to differentiate if it's read afterwards.

@cougar- that's your opinion, obviously.

Unfortunately, if you're the one that's looking for a job then your opinion doesn't matter and there's plenty of hiring managers that place a lot of importance on a covering note as it's an opportunity to learn more about how the candidate might fit in, than just outlining work experience and achievements.

A cover letter should explain in a clear and pithy manner how you meet the essential criteria for the post, if that is how the post is advertised. It also shows that you can write clearly in English (or whatever language the job is advertised in) and have actually read the job advertisement properly, understand what the word "essential" means, have bothered to understand what is required.

The CV has more detail, and should be edited to what is relevant to each post.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I always tend to go for the CV first and then will generally look at the covering letter if they have demonstrated the essential skills for the role

Yep, me too.
Tailor the CV, make it relevant to the role, the cover letter is largely irrelevant and will only get looked at once I've looked at the CV and likely already made a decision.

Re. Career coach/CV writer, they are 2 very different things with very different skills.
I won't go near a CV writer, I seen far to many CV's written by them that are just not very good at all.

A career coach however was very useful indeed, I used one to help me with a rather chunky career decision a few years ago and he was brilliant. @P-Jay, DM me if you want his details.

that’s your opinion, obviously.

Of course it is.

Unfortunately, if you’re the one that’s looking for a job then your opinion doesn’t matter

Correct. But in the absence of a crystal ball, nor does yours. If you're looking for a job you have no idea what a given recruiter might latch on to, it's guesswork.

there’s plenty of hiring managers that place a lot of importance on a covering note as it’s an opportunity to learn more about how the candidate might fit in

a) At the risk of repeating myself, that's what a CV is for and if they want to 'learn more' then that is what an interview is for.

b) A hiring manager needs to tread very carefully around phrases like "fitting in." We have robust discrimination laws in this country and rejecting a candidate on the grounds that they wouldn't fit in because they [supported Manchester United | didn't drink | were female | were Muslim | voted for brexit] is unlikely to end well.

What "fit" would you be looking for in a covering letter?

Attitude?

Attitude?

Such as being overly convinced of their own correctness / the value of their opinion?

Lol! Not sure if that was aimed at me or Cougar.

My point is, if you remain steadfastly convinced that your CV is the only thing a recruiter is looking at and that there is no place for a covering note, then there are recruiters (like me) that may not prioritise interviewing you over someone that they feel they have a clearer picture of, because they've taken the time to do both.

Cougar, I can assure you that people do get rejected on what they did or didn't write in their covering letter all the time - even with robust HR policies and nobody discriminating. Sometimes a CV is so good a shite covering letter might be overlooked. Often there's a bunch of "OK" CVs and you need some way to differentiate them. I think they are actually quite useful in highly specialist roles for non specialists sorting the ridiculous candidates from those that are worth the expert looking at - my HR team can bin some who have complex sounding CVs that would otherwise make it through to waste me time.

However perhaps most importantly CV's are factual documents, essentially backwards looking. A covering letter helps put that in context of what they want to do next - perhaps why they are leaving somewhere after a short period or indeed a very long period. If we advertise on the job boards I will get ~50 CVs per advert. 1/2 we can eliminate for just being totally unqualified but I will still only want to interview 3 or 4... unless the job is for graphic design or marketing sifting on how good they are at making their CV standout is not necessarily the best way. Eliminating people who didn't follow the simple instructions in the advert is a good way of getting rid of people who are applying for everything, think they are more important or don't have good attention to detail.

There are some sweet spots with me that work in covering letters - people who aren't local who have a good reason to move (family, partner new job etc), I'm not competing with your current place; people who have made big career changes and highlight the relevance of that mix (probably isn't on our job spec because there's only 3 or 4 people with that mix in the country, but occasionally you find a gem); people who might have relevant skills from outside the workplace that don't appear prominent on a CV (can be particularly good place for mothers, carers etc after a career break).

So it's irrelevant whether you think a covering letter is a good idea or not. What matters is if the hiring manager wants one! And if they've asked for a CV and Covering Letter then for gods sake don't just submit "Please find attached my CV for your consideration for the role of XX" - because that's not what they want. Obviously if its an IT job where most candidates are crap at communication and there's a dearth of people with basic skills the hiring manager may be so desperate they'll take anyone.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to post, well until the usual bickering and in-fighting started 😉

I suppose when it comes to the CV, it's not the grammar or layout I need, what I actually need is someone to almost interview me and drag out what I actually have to offer. I'm in the middle of a long counselling course for poor self-esteem, which is why I want a new job, but also what makes it hard.

@lunge thanks for the offer, I'll DM you now.

Do you have a trusted colleague who knows you well and could review your CV and suggest what to add or change?

My friend and I did this for one another and it worked really well. She added all the relevant business jargon to mine, and I made it actually make sense.

Such as being overly convinced of their own correctness / the value of their opinion?

Well, that's me $%^&ed if so. (-:

Cougar, I can assure you that people do get rejected on what they did or didn’t write in their covering letter all the time

I don't doubt it.

However perhaps most importantly CV’s are factual documents, essentially backwards looking. A covering letter helps put that in context of what they want to do next

Or, you could put that in the CV.

people who might have relevant skills from outside the workplace that don’t appear prominent on a CV (can be particularly good place for mothers, carers etc after a career break).

Or, you could put that in the CV.

Both of these scenarios can be covered off with an opening 'abstract' paragraph more usually filled with inane waffle about "works well alone or within a team".

So it’s irrelevant whether you think a covering letter is a good idea or not. What matters is if the hiring manager wants one!

100% agree.

Now, how would you know?

I've dipped in and out of the recruitment process in various roles since the mid-1990s. I've seen more CVs than an explosion in a Scrabble factory. Yet I could probably count the number of covering letters I've seen on the fingers of one hand. Why would you not want all the relevant information in one place?

Fair argument, well made (eventually ;o)