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Two boys died after crashing on an ebike, and riots ensued as social media was awash with stories of a police chase leading up to the fatal crash. The police denied there had been a chase – less than 24 hours later and there is now CCTV apparently showing there was a police van following the boys. They really do not ^%$*ing help themselves and I can imagine there will be more disturbances now on the back of them denying the chase taking place. FFS.
From the reporting, I'll take "scroats on a chipped e-bike doing silly speeds with hoodies for head protection" as my starter for 10 please.
From the reporting, I’ll take “scroats on a chipped e-bike doing silly speeds with hoodies for head protection” as my starter for 10 please.
I have no doubt they probably were doing something less than desirable, but what I am trying to focus on is the fact that the police appear to have lied (or, even if they didn't have all the facts and misreported, *appear* to have lied) and that will just inflame tensions. Surely they should have said something less absolute in their response if they didn't know?
I assume it was an electric motorbike instead?
Certainly looked like it from the CCTV. Not that that makes it OK for the police to lie about their involvement.
Like all rioters, those involved who committed the worst of the disorder are going to discover in the coming weeks that the police have been taking pictures throughout the night. So expect a few doors to be going in at 5am in the next month or two.
And the law is harsh on rioters, who will be facing years in prison because of their actions. 8 years isn't an unusual sentence for this.
As with many reported stories, we don't know as yet the full facts, and their deaths could have just been the result of a common accident, the likes of which we hear about every single day. So lets try not to demonize a 15yr and 16 old before we know what happened.
The bike is being quoted as a sur-ron electric motorbike , and completely legal
less than 24 hours later and there is now CCTV apparently showing there was a police van following the boys.
"Following" or "Chasing"?
So little detail given.
We live in an angry world - any excuse needed.
I assume it was an electric motorbike instead?
Sorry, I didn't make the distinction, but yes, it appears to be an electric motorbike.
Certainly looked like it from the CCTV. Not that that makes it OK for the police to lie about their involvement.
But this is the point. Scrotes are going to scrote but the police should be telling the truth (or not saying something absolute before they *know* the truth).
Certainly looked like it from the CCTV. Not that that makes it OK for the police to lie about their involvement.
Just seen the footage now too. Quite right that it doesn't make a difference to the, frankly bizarre, police behaviour but does change understanding of the speeds involved. Alun Michael (police commissioner) isn't likely to see out the month before stepping down I'd wager
I can never understand the logic of 'sticking it to the man' by burning all your own (already shit) immediate surroundings.
Its like protesting about a rise in council tax by having a massive dump on your own carpet then pissing on your sofa
I can never understand the logic of ‘sticking it to the man’ by burning all your own (already shit) immediate surroundings.
I assume nobody set fire to their own stuff – it'll be kids using the events as an excuse to have a lark and just smashing stuff up and burning things (similar to the clowns that ring up the fire service and then throw fireworks and stuff at them). But, unless there is a massive police presence tonight (and perhaps despite one), there will now be more rioting because of the perceived injustice of the police lying about the chase.
“Following” or “Chasing”?
So little detail given.
We live in an angry world – any excuse needed.
Indeed.
some (about 1 second) cctv showing a police van behind the kids on the bike =/= a police chase.
(edit, and I dare say the police have a very specific understanding of what constitutes a chase and what doesn't. Quite possibly what you I may call a chase they absolutely do not and, given its going to end up being investigated and potentially in court, those definitions matter...
You said there was a chase.
Yes
Was it authorised?
No
So it was an illegal chase?)
The bike is being quoted as a sur-ron electric motorbike , and completely legal
To be ridden by a 15/16 year old?
iirc Surons are of a power to weight ratio that means they are only legal to be ridden by those in possesion of a full bike license.
That's not to say that the police denying being involved in a chase then CCTV show they were doesn't reflect badly on the police.
But riding a motorbike illegally without adequate ppe is veering into play stupid games win stupid prizes territory.
To be ridden by a 15/16 year old?
A 16 yr old can legally drive an E-moped/motorbike.
Also just seen the footage and although the speed isnt high speed, the distance between them and the van clearly shows the police were chasing them.
A 16 yr old can legally drive an E-moped/motorbike.
I'm struggling to believe that this was a road legal, taxed, insured bike being ridden by someone with any kind of relevant licence.
The speed is high enough when the riders are being protected by UKCA marked balaclavas
I can never understand the logic of ‘sticking it to the man’ by burning all your own (already shit) immediate surroundings.
to their mind it is all the same
the prime minister, the police, the benefits office, the council, (even the aussie police who tasered an old woman recently I've seen mentioned in a "all police are bad" kind of way)
all out to get them, all one big homogenous lump of "the man" so go ahead, stick it to Rishi by smashing up your local bus stop.
Some lovely comments on here already.
I'm not jumping either way until some evidence and context is available. It's as bad to jump to conclusions about the Police as the victims.
Wonder if it's the start of a long hot summer though....
They were on a Sur Ron electric MX jobbie, so yeah an illegal motorbike. (to be used on the road, without a number plate anyway)
We also get a few of them round here, I have encountered them on the cycle routes a few times.
The law has yet to catch up with the whole 'electric motorbike' industry, whether it's the Sur Rons or the 'twist and go' £250 conversion kits used by urban delivery riders. The fact the (usually Chinese) manufacturers aggressively market them online towards Teenagers and stuff like this is the inevitable result.
Search for Sur Ron on Tiktok or Youtube and you'll get a torrent of stuff, some from Sur Ron supported riders, they know exactly what their products are being used for, they just DGAF.
Have a horrid feeling there will be a kneejerk backlash against them in the future and that legit legal speed limited E-bikes will get caught up in the process.
A 16 yr old can legally drive an E-moped/motorbike.
Only if it's restricted as per our learner laws, and they have a valid CBT, and it's taxed and insured and they wear the correct helmet properly secured.
Sur-rons can be de-restricted to 45mph - at which point it'll be at minimum 17yrs old to ride it, but then stuff like power to weight ratios come in.
And the SuperNintendo has just said (at 17.17, after the video has come to light)
at this stage Stone does not believe any other vehicles were involved.
WTaF
Swap this around... 'We've got you on CCTV stealing the car'. 'Nope, that wasn't me'.
Swap this around… ‘We’ve got you on CCTV [s] stealing the car’.[/] and a few seconds later a stolen car on the same 3m stretch of road'‘Nope, that wasn’t me’.
FTFY.
That video shows sod all, just a bike with two kids then a van. It could be a chase,
but it could be a coincidence, it could be birthday party, it could be the invasion of the body snatchers for all you can see.
these types
Oh dear. all are the same are they ?. Couple of kids zoom about on an Ebike and are now therefore guilty of mugging people.
"chased" or "Followed"
Neither, it was pursued.
But if the pursued wouldn't pull over, when does it become a chase?
but what I am trying to focus on is the fact that the police appear to have lied
Lots more to come I'd say. What is (now) known is that a police van was pursuing, or appeared to be pursing, some minutes prior some streets away. Whilst they've clearly ****ed up the narrative there is a pretty massive leap from that to they were chasing them at the time of their crash/death.
edit - I see they have now confirmed they were. Could have been absolutely the right thing to be doing - but a royal **** up to say otherwise in the immediate aftermath. How the **** would you make the blunder to not know before making a press statement.
edit to my edit - I'm assuming there will be the usual family statement saying their child was the bestest ever and lit up every room and has been cruelly and unfairly taken from us. I just wish that occasionally there was a bit of reality and accepting that they played a part in their own downfall. Riding fast to escape the police rather than stop as requested is a choice. Risky choices sadly come with consequences. And occasionally we have to live with the fact that our loved ones made poor choices.
And thread close in 3..... 2...... 1.......
We don't know enough about any of the specific details to call out either the police or the two boys who died.
We don’t know enough about any of the specific details to call out either the police or the two boys who died.
Wonder if it’s the start of a long hot summer though….
^ both those.
We don’t know enough about any of the specific details to call out either the police or the two boys who died.
Indeed. Apparently it's OK to celebrate their death, but call it out and you get your post deleted.
Police not chasing enables the illegal behaviour - the MET had issues with their "no chase if no helmets" rules, crims found out and all stopped wearing helmets.
It's a dammed if they do, dammed if they don't situation. I'm personally ok with the police chasing - as riding a motorbike without appropriate protection is, as I said above, into "stupid games, stupid prizes" territory.
It’s a dammed if they do, dammed if they don’t situation. I’m personally ok with the police chasing – as riding a motorbike without appropriate protection is, as I said above, into “stupid games, stupid prizes” territory.
I think you've missed the point. I don't think anyone has an issue with the police chasing them ( do they?). They're objecting to the police chasing them and then saying they weren't chasing them
Hmmm.. Just imagine if they had stopped while being chased by the police .....
Yes unfortunate . But why didnt they ? As above Policing in the UK is far to soft as are sentences, which leads to what was witnessed in Cardiff , Bradford years ago, Oldham . We in the UK have a generation of people who just clearly do not understand any form of law and order and yet the poeple there to try and protect and keep the peace are the ones that get scrutinized by bureaucrats everytime something like this happens. No wonder theres no uptake in the police force..
Police can't win can they, it's 95% certain it was two teens riding a illegal electric motor bike without a licence, tax, insurance or even a helmet, under age, all of which is illegal. If they had mown down someone on a crossing or pavement and the police had backed off chasing them (which sounds likely) the police are at fault. Assuming the kids were to blame for what happened and let's be honest it's happened many times before, the only people to blame are now dead. The police haven't helped themselves once again by being economical with the truth, ie they were chasing the offenders but had backed off before the crash.
What followed afterwards had no justification in anyway unless the police had deliberately rammed them off the road Land even that is a legitimate response to protect people not breaking the law from idiots who are).
This thread is absolutely unbelievable. A few people on here should have a right word with themselves.
Two kids, barely starting in life, probably without much guidance or prospects have died in tragic circumstances and the usual ###### on here are preaching from their middle class enclaves about scroats deserving what they get. As for that Martyfez character words fail me.
I hope it is a long hot summer - some communities are at breaking point and the uk police are not fit fir purpose
I can see where mattyfez is coming from, I wouldn't word it so strongly though, and we don't know the circumstances for all we know they could be model kids off to get some flowers for their mum
We have areas that are terrirorised by youths smashing about on unplated scooters, mx and now two of these e-mx bikes have appeared. My 8 year old was nearly hit by one doing a wheelie along a path into the local sports centre. If he hadn't moved fast out of the way he would have been seriously hurt. They just laughed.
Police do need to be able to tackle anti social behaviour on bikes / e-bikes / scooters whatever as unchallenged it just gets worse.
A tragic case of youthful exuberance - many of us with the wisdom of age will probably be thinking that we got up to similar high jinks that could have been just as tragic were it not for some luck. These boys appeared to have run out of it.
The bike is illegal (no plates), the riders were not licensed to ride it or insured to do so.
Those facts appear relatively uncontentious which then brings us to the responsibility of the parents. One of the mums is quoted as saying they were "always off riding their electric bikes" - but only off road. That seems to be to a parent who either turned a blind eye or was naive as to how the motorbike reached the "off road" bits and the obvious lack of helmet etc. And not many youngsters can drive round on a c£3k motorbike without adults in the immediate family / community knowing it.
It does rather seem that adults who should have been watching out for the two boys let them down.
Just to add, there is a shrine in our local woods where one of the youths killed himself off roading a few years back.
Doesn't seem to have stopped them. At least with proper MX you can hear what part of the woods or park they are in, and can actively avoid it to keep yourself safe. The e MX are super quiet and just as fast.
I'm not getting into the rights/ wrongs as I don't know enough. Its a tragedy that 2 found lads died, whatever the circumstances.
Lots of Sur Rons around here on the roads these days. The law simply hasn't kept up with the whole electric revolution. We are still in the wild west stage and there will be many more deaths in the near future I'm afraid...
some communities are at breaking point and the uk police are not fit fir purpose
Too right, all the poor sods living on that estate that have to put up with anti social behaviour of idiots like these two, people who were probably scrapping by who now have no car, can't get to work, living in fear the other idiots will be back tonight to have another go at the police. It's not the rioters or the two dead teens that need our empathy is all the other people being let down.
Two kids, barely starting in life, probably without much guidance or prospects have died in tragic circumstances
This is not a defence of the behaviour witnessed by either the riders or the rioters.
We don't all live in middle class enclaves, some of us actually see this on a daily basis, from the tone of your post t sounds like you're the one insulated from the realities of some people in our society.
if your going to troll at least try well.
There is no ebike involved here.
And you cannot ride a surron. On a CBT.
Surrons
Googles - got to confess, they look quite cool. They appeal to the inner 16 year old in me. Hell, they appeal to the 51 year old in me. There is no way in hell this middle class yoof would have been able to find the cash for one mind.
I was wondering how 2 lads twosup on an ebike had built up enough momentum to kill both of them rather than just mangle themselves, but that explains it. I can totally see why they need legislation around their use.
I can totally see why they need legislation around their use.
There is, they're motorbikes. So it's the same legislation as those, and training/ppe requirements for the users.
There is
Erm - didn't say there wasn't. Just that I could see why there was.
When I first heard the story it said people died in cars that crashed and that they were being chased by police at the time - the Police denied this. Then all of a sudden pictures emerged of a police van following/chasing/pursuing some people on a bike which wasn’t anything to do with the original story…
So the original denial of chasing a car might be correct but got lost in all the hubbub….🤷♂️
You can see how it could get confused, if the bike out ran the van and then crashed, you'd have a van looking for a bike and somewhere else an RTA called in by a member of the public, so two seemingly unrelated incidents...
What I really want to know is who are these people who have balaclavas to hand, just in case there's a riot in their street?
Balaclava and or face mask is “road man” uniform isn’t it.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Roadman
We in the UK have a generation of people who just clearly do not understand any form of law
Er, no, we don't.
My guess is that this is a reaction on how our people in authority behave, police and government. Maybe people have had enough of it, the last few years has been relentless.
The last few weeks is classic examples, Met lying about the “intelligence” they had regarding the rape alarms at the Coronation; Met lying about the placards the protestors had and arrested them; th e Cardiff Police lying about the police not being involved in a chase. It’s endless lies, I really could go on listing them.
There gets to a point where something snaps. Change is needed. This happens all over the world and is not limited to the UK. The authorities lie, the little people have no voice. This spills over into what we witnessed last night.
I’m not sure the kids rioting in Cardiff are that up to speed with the politics of the Met police over the past few weeks.
That’s not to say that what happened isn’t a tragedy, but two things can be true at once - the police force are a shambles with their communication following this event, and these kids shouldn’t have been messing about and the police are within their rights to prevent antisocial behaviour.
What I really want to know is who are these people who have balaclavas to hand, just in case there’s a riot in their street
I have several myself, you better come up and arrest me
Something happened locally in South Manchester, not dissimilar (no cops). Lad who was a well known trouble maker was part of the manslaughter of a local restaurant owner when they robbed his car and ran him over - so had form. Some months later, same lad robs another lads motorbike. Bike Lad finds out who it was (next village) chases him in his car and runs the robber off the road on the stolen bike. Said 'lovely boy' ends up dead. Local riots in next village from gangs.
FFS dick about, rob people and when it all goes wrong, blame someone else.
Personally I've had close calls a few times with idiots on Surrons.
If, as towpathman suggests, this may have been the police acting on anti-social behaviour I have no problem with that.
You might want to have a think if you think killing kids is ok. Anto social behaviour or not. Stuff like what fossy described happened 40 years ago as well as something very similar happened although the mopeds were petrol powered the, and that was in rural Fenland. Not sure it's similar to this except being a fatal crash for some kids
Really sad, and it doesn't help for the police to not get their story factually correct.
Very similar to the start of the Hartcliffe riots in Bristol in 1992:
https://thebristolcable.org/2022/07/30-years-since-the-hartcliffe-riots/
You might want to have a think if you think killing kids is ok
killing kids is bad. Them killing themselves because they are stupid is at best unfortunate or Darwin in action depending on your perspective
You might want to have a think if you think killing kids is ok.
Who said it was? Who said the police killed them?
One thing
Whose to say these 2 lads didn't want the police to chase them?
Go out and behave anti socially on an illegal electric motor bike, to deliberately get police involved.
Then instigate a chase, so you get full bragging rights on out running the po po
, sticking it to 'the man' etc.
Till they run out of talent at the wrong moment, then suddenly they are innocent victims, lovely, well mannered, polite boys who loved their mum.. Insert usual Daily Mail platitudes.
Facts are in short supply at present.
No-one has said the police killed the youths; there are accusations that police actions (may have) contributed to their deaths.
My money would be on the youths not being the...loveable, cheeky lads just out on their motorbike having fun as some family friend apologists have been saying.
Rioting. It's the working-class equivalent of a strongly worded letter.
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<p class="MuiTypography-root MuiTypography-body1 css-9l3uo3"><span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">I can never understand the logic of ‘sticking it to the man’ by burning all your own (already shit) immediate surroundings.</span></p>
Listening to the wireless at lunchtime it said it wasn’t locals that torched their own street, it was a social media thing, and people dropped by to join in the fun
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I’m not sure the kids rioting in Cardiff are that up to speed with the politics of the Met police over the past few weeks.
They don’t have to be. They simply have to have been exposed to the growing anti authoritarian movement that’s been particularly prevalent on social media over the past few years and has been fuelled even further by covid lockdowns.
It started off with those “freemen of the land” characters posting videos of them denying speeding charges etc as they quote some archaic text they have no real understanding of. Added to that you’ve got the anti lockdown brigade and their stance, helped unfortunately by the absolute shit behaviour of the tories (and others) to further erode confidence in our leaders and people of authority. The latest one is these clowns “auditing” police stations, courts etc and filming their exploits and posting to social media.
All this stuff is fuelling a very strong anti authority stance amongst young folk. I predicted it a couple of years ago but I may have gone too early, but I suspect we’ll see something resembling the poll tax riots back in the 90s this summer
TBH I found the cops' description of what happened as "massive public disorder" misleading and exaggerated. We're talking about a prolonged affray along two streets with two (2) cars smashed up. It's bad, but it's not Paris or Beirut. It's Millwall on a bad night.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/macron-faces-labour-day-protests-pension-reform-anger-festers-2023-05-01/
https://www.voanews.com/a/tear-gas-clashes-as-lebanon-protesters-try-to-storm-govt-hq/7016156.html
The last few weeks is classic examples, Met lying about the “intelligence” they had regarding the rape alarms at the Coronation; Met lying about the placards the protestors had and arrested them; th e Cardiff Police lying about the police not being involved in a chase.
Usual police bullshit: lie in the immediate aftermath, the rumour mill will take care of the rest. I heard the kids were no angels, that they were wearing heavy jackets, that they grabbed their pockets, that they jumped the turnstile...
Listening to the wireless at lunchtime it said it wasn’t locals that torched their own street, it was a social media thing, and people dropped by to join in the fun
So they ‘stuck it to the man’ by torching Sandra’s 15 year old Corsa so she can’t get to her cleaning job in the morning
Brilliant!
That’ll do it
politecamera - do you live in Milwall?
politecamera – do you live in Milwall?
I assume you are actually asking about Bermondsey. Millwall hasn't been in Millwall for over a century. (No).
How come I cannot see politecameraaction's profile?
Yeah bit weird that, what are they hiding?
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I heard the kids were no angels, that they were wearing heavy jackets, that they grabbed their pockets, that they jumped the turnstile…
How come I cannot see politecameraaction’s profile?
It's an option you can have too.
politecamera - you introduced Mil(l)wall into the thread; perhaps you should have been more accurate in your geographical referencing.
Returning to the topic - I disagree with you.
Them killing themselves because they are stupid is at best unfortunate or Darwin in action depending on your perspective
10 likes for a post that describes the death of these kids as "at best unfortunate" - not nice, especially when none of us know the facts.
What would you like to know,
Perhaps they would like to send you a private message.
"Studmuffin"
Well that conjurers up images.
10 likes for a post that describes the death of these kids as “at best unfortunate” – not nice, especially when none of us know the facts.
Underage kids illegally riding an unroadworthy, unlicensed, uninsured, overpowered bike without legally mandated safety gear. Is that inaccurate?
10 likes for a post that describes the death of these kids as “at best unfortunate” – not nice, especially when none of us know the facts.
i’d taken the likes to be a reaction to the poster suggesting that it wasn’t the police who’d killed the children, as was stated in a previous post.
This is what's wrong with public discourse recently - why does EVERYTHING have to be binary?
Police lying is bad, police press statements can be poor/wrong (and that's bad), rioting is sometimes idiotic - sometimes justified, Young people dying is tragic, the police should consider the risk to the public and perpetrator when pursuing - which is difficult and (I would imagine) easy to get wrong, but its not the police's fault that somebody (breaking the law) kills themselves trying to get away, at 16/17 you have a good idea of right/wrong and fleeing from the police shouldn't be characterized as hijinks etc etc.
Right now, nobody really knows the circumstances around what happened - expressing a (very) strong opinion on the internet regardless of that makes you a bit of a bellend, but going and smashing the place up regardless of not knowing the facts - more so. Even Cardiff.
Apologies is that all sounds a bit obvious, but it's essentially what people seem to be arguing about.
I'd also agree with the sentiment that conditions seem ripe for civil unrest at the moment. A bit of that would be welcome: I'd like to see people on the streets outraged about any number of things going on at the moment.
Underage kids illegally riding an unroadworthy, unlicensed, uninsured, overpowered bike without legally mandated safety gear. Is that inaccurate
Underage kids mate! Ffs! Its sad when kids die. We all do stupid things in life.
Sure - they weren't old enough to be riding a bike that powerful on the road, quite apart from everything else that was wrong.
10 likes for a post that describes the death of these kids as “at best unfortunate” – not nice, especially when none of us know the facts.
As already stated, the reason the comment you mentioned got so many likes is because the comment it was quoting was unnecessarily emotive. Yes, children dying is always sad. Hell, adults dying is sad - even if it is by their own actions and decisions. But they were not 'killed'. And using the word 'killed' with the inference that they were killed by the police (because I'm not sure who else the finger could be pointed at) is how events like a couple of nights ago start. To be clear, George Floyd was 'killed', these two lads 'died'. A huge, chasm, of a difference.
Some nicely phrased perspective from convert and batfink 👏👏
& Darwin in action? Does that go for MTBers or Rugby players who die?
Do MTBers who crash "kill themselves"?
Sure – they weren’t old enough to be riding a bike that powerful on the road, quite apart from everything else that was wrong.
But its sad when kids die right?