[Closed] car with winter tyres vs 4x4 on factory fit

Take the Astra

Braking is significantly better as well

I'd probably take the astra. What tyres exactly are on the mitsi though as my mates landrover has m+s ones on anyway

the astra...which was phenominal 2 winters ago coming back from oop north in a few inches of snow.

Answered it yourself surely?

It may be worth checking the wear on the winter tyres, whilst still better than summer tyres in the cold down to the 1.6mm wear limit, if below 4mm their performance on snow drops off significantly

Astra, hands down. It doesn't if you have a 10-wheel-drive, if the tyres are not made for the conditions and have no grip, you won't get through the snow and ice.

Astra.

If not for the pleasure of passing all the go anywhere 4x4s in a 'normal' car 🙂

Answered it yourself surely?

Yes but my car has a decent stereo and heated seats for 8 hours of driving over two days

Just thought it may be a myth about 4x4s being poop in the snow on summers.
Pretty certain they're summers on the mitsubishi and I'll check the depth on the winters. Ta

Yes but my car has a decent stereo and heated seats for 8 hours of driving over two days

Just thought it may be a myth about 4x4s being poop in the snow on summers.
Pretty certain they're summers on the mitsubishi and I'll check the depth on the winters. Ta"

Friend in rear wheel drive Merc overtook Ranger Rover sat spinning in snow in the alps. Guess which car had the winter tyres.

Me in fully loaded Ford Transit, overtook (ok, crawled past at a sensible speed) a Porche Cayenne struggling to maintain 5mph on a flat road (and going sideways 🙂 ) I'd just driven up a fairly steep hill on normal tyres and then scared myself when I noticed all the holes in someones fence where the cars coming down hadn't made it!

Leave the astra for wifey, a real man could drive th 4x4 and make progress. 😆

pedlad

Just thought it may be a myth about 4x4s being poop in the snow on summers.

It is. A few winters ago my Legacy on summer tyres was sensational in several inches of snow. Never struggled for grip, passed everything. I couldn't really discern much difference between the Legacy and my Hilux which was on BF Goodrich AT's. If the snow gets really deep though, a 4x4 with increased ground clearance will easily go where cars will not.

The random factor here is the driver. If you can't drive in snow, no amount of technology will help you.

Astra.

It's not even close.

The trouble with taking the Astra is that you'll have to drive an Astra. Regardless of tyres, I'd take the Mitsubishi. Failing that, I'd walk.

Train

Check your tyres on the Mitsi, my Outlander came with all season tyres and I've never struggled in some pretty significant snow. That said I've never driven on full on winter tyres.

It is. A few winters ago my Legacy on summer tyres was sensational in several inches of snow. Never struggled for grip, passed everything. I couldn't really discern much difference between the Legacy and my Hilux which was on BF Goodrich AT's.

The random factor here is the driver. If you can't drive in snow, no amount of technology will help you.

BFG AT's aren't winter/snow tyres you know

It's a moot point if a couple of cars/trucks get into trouble on any point of your journey then you will be stuck no matter what you are driving.
(Speaks from bitter experience)

Leave the astra for wifey, a real man could drive th 4x4 and make progress.

Don't worry I'm a driving God....obviously

TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR

BFG AT's aren't winter/snow tyres you know

They work very well in the snow.

[IMG] [/IMG]

More than good enough to negate the need for snow tyres on a 4x4 unless you live in some alpine winter wonderland.

Porche Cayenne struggling to maintain 5mph on a flat road

I've seen this with someone in a Range Rover going sideways. When he stopped he said he didn't know whats up as its a 4x4, I pointed out his low profile tyres weren't really made for the snow.

My L200 has BFG AT's and never struggled in snow and do a pretty good job off road unless it's really boggy or clay. But they are ALL TERRAIN meaning they are okay at a bit of everything but not great at any one thing.

My 4x4 (summer tyres) is hopeless in our marginal 'winter conditions', mainly because it's rwd and you can't use the 4x4 unless it's proper slippy on the ground (slip dif or whatever it's called?). It's just not worth chancing knackering it unless the conditions are consistently bad, not just patchy, so you have to drive like everyone else with very poor rwd. Add that to the fact that tyres play the main role, it's a no brainer really. On the odd occasions I have been able to use 4x4 on snow covered roads, it's been fine, but the summer tyres always caused me to still drive with care and I'm not convinced I was all that much better off than my old Astra with it's heavy diesel engine on fwd and summer tyres.

Got back from the Alps on Saturday - I took a 4x4 on the standard M&S tyres, friend was in a BMW on winter tyres. The 4x4 got up the slope to the chalet without any issues the BMW on winters couldn't get anywhere near.

Obviously there is no doubt that winter tyres are the most suitable for the time of year but different conditions/circumstances might favour a 4x4 on m&s tyres - I'd be taking the most comfortable car for the journey, if the snow does strike then you'll most likely end up in a queue caused by someone else and might as well be on a heated seat with a decent radio!

They work very well in the snow

Thinking of putting some of these on my Navara

[img] [/img]

What are they 33"s?

I run winters on my Berlingo, but for a long journey through a busy area where if everyone else gets stuck, you'll get stuck, I'd tale the vehicle most comfortable to sleep in.

Fortunately for me I live in a rural area and can usually take a back road to avoid any blockage, but if you are surrounded by stuck unprepared numpties, you are going nowhere.

I can confirm that a Yaris on winter tyres is substantially less good (and less fun) on snow than a landy with pretty well any tyres I've owned fitted.

Doesn't mean a 2wd is useless, you'd still get where you needed to go unless its 2010-style snow.

Not a helpful answer but a lot of it depends on the "type" of snow and road conditions.

I'm in Canada and I have an Outlander and it has "proper" winter tyres - big lugs and a soft compound as well (Dunlop Grandtrek SJ6). It's fantastic in deep snow (by deep I'm talking 1 foot+ on the road). But on tarmac it rumbles and is generally unpleasant; also under hard braking you can feel the tyres squirming.

Sweamrs1 has an Impreeza and it's fitted with Michelin X-Ice. These are seriously good on packed snow and black ice; much better in fact than the Outlanders. In very heavy snow though they can get a bit bogged down and the lower ground clearance doesn't help but it's still a 4wd so in general she's okay.

Personally I'd take the Astra and try not to get bogged down in the snow if it starts getting deep.

If you can't drive in snow, no amount of technology will help you

Dunno how you can claim to know what you are talking about and then post a sentence like that!

What are they 33"s?

265/70/17's to replace my 255/60/18 road tyres/wheels

Cooper ATs on my L200, they have been rather fine in everything so far - and aren't too bad on the road either! Massively improved a car with godawful handling - the new Navara/Renault for 2016 looks pretty interesting though, I may just need to look into changing my (well, companies) lease! It's about due anyway....

Considerably better than the Bridgestone Duellers that it came with... but then so would tyres made of ice and grease. Hateful things!

molgrips

Dunno how you can claim to know what you are talking about and then post a sentence like that!

It's really quite simple molgrips, if you use low gears and high revs you'll break traction, even in a 4x4 with winter tyres. I know you're the sage guru of all things driving, so of course, you already know that, but lots of people don't. Also observe how traction control, designed to assist drivers will render their cars un-driveable in snow and ice if left on in some cars.

More often than not when people get stuck in 4x4s it's because they haven't a clue how to drive in the conditions, not because they need better stuff.

Considerably better than the Bridgestone Duellers that it came with... but then so would tyres made of ice and grease. Hateful things!

I concur - had them on a Ford Ranger a few years ago. I think they were actually made from ball bearings coated in silicone.

How does 4x4 improve braking and cornering? It's good for getting moving but getting moving can be just the first step in your crash.

I've got a 4x4 and I maintain they can get you into trouble further from help and at a greater speed that a 2wd if you aren't careful.

It's really quite simple molgrips

I know. Winter tyres give much more grip on snow. So no matter how inept a driver is, winter tyres will definitely help.

And I'm not sage of driving, I'm sage of sound reasoning 🙂

AT or MT style tyres are indeed great on soft, freshly lain snow.
They are no better than normal road tyres on compacted polished icy stuff. Arguably worse due to lower contact area.
In my experience, of course.

I was always surprised at how (relatively) few 4x4s there are in properly cold and snowy places like Finland, Norway, Latvia etc. Winter or studded tyres, more experienced / trained winter drivers and away they go.

They aren't all well trained. Saw a few howlers when I ws in Helsinki, although admittedly not as many as you would here 🙂

molgrips

I know. Winter tyres give much more grip on snow. So no matter how inept a driver is, winter tyres will definitely help.

And no matter how good the winter tyres are, they won't make up for a drivers ineptitude. The driver's the crucial component here.

Northwind

How does 4x4 improve braking and cornering? It's good for getting moving but getting moving can be just the first step in your crash.

4x4 gives a huge improvement in cornering performance in adverse conditions, but I know what you're saying. It can give a false sense of security as it doesn't making stopping any easier. Engine braking may be improved, I don't know but that'd be a moot point I think.

RWD cars with wide, low-profile tyres and no weight over the driving wheels = hopeless. Front wheel drive cars with a heavy diesel angine and narrow tyres will do much better. Mrs Gti's Ibiza with Avon Snow & Ice tyres is unstoppable, really excellent. There's a reason why winter rally cars have such narrow tyres. Series Land Rovers are good in snow and mud thanks to narrow tall tyres but they don't ride very nicely.

That said, good technique counts for a lot - momentum is your friend.

And no matter how good the winter tyres are, they won't make up for a drivers ineptitude.

Mostly, they will. You can still lose control of your car if you are really stupid but that goes for dry weather too.

To get around on snow on summer tyres you have to be really careful with the controls and have good knowledge and experience. On winter tyres, you can just drive normally but be a bit more careful. It's much easier.

Your opinion, winter tyres can overcome the most inept driving. My opinion, they can't. There's not much middle ground so we'll have to leave it at that.

Have driven standard front wheel drive cars in Germany, Canada and Sweden with winter tyres, and on one occasion on studded tyres. Winter tyres just work really well on snow and would probably be my preferred option. Studded tyres are incredible, but illegal in most places (and really noisy on tarmac). However, as someone else has said, everyone in front of you needs to have winter tyres for the traffic to move.

On the other hand, I have a 4WD with standard tyres, and the traction is excellent on snow (even hard packed). I suspect it's the smart differential rather than the 4WD itself that helps most. When a wheel starts to spin, it stops, and the drive is sent to the other wheels. However, I am really careful when cornering and (especially) braking, as the 4WD doesn't help here. I have pretty new tyres, and they're not stupid low profile jobs.

Matetr of definition. Even inept drivers can benefit from winter tyres. It might make enough of a difference to stop their ineptitude leading to crashitude, which you could call making up for it. It might not though, so you can say it won't overcome ineptitude.

Not sure there's any actual need for a stabbing outside the pub over this 😆

Your opinion, winter tyres can overcome the most inept driving.

That's really not at all what I said - you've shuffled the words around.

They won't overcome the MOST inpet driving, nothing will. However they will MOSTLY overcome inept driving, ie give you a lot more control for a lot less effort.

Just been out at lunchtime in icy Swedish streets, saw a lot of people riding their ABS at junctions. I suppose this is a bad thing? Also a lot of people driving (and stopping) way faster than they would have been able to on summers. Maybe they should all change to winters and start mincing about slowly and crashing? Not sure your point tbh.

saw a lot of people riding their ABS at junctions. I suppose this is a bad thing?

I hope you aren't saying it's a good thing. In my experience ABS is not effective on ice, slowing in a controlled manner using the engine and gentle braking is far more effective

My point is that people are just driving around normally, and occasionally they lock a wheel at a junction whereupon the ABS helps them avoid a skid. ABS definitely working here so I would say yes it's a good thing. You can't be trundling around on engine braking alone in town all day ever day - no-one would get anywhere.

They were probably modern cars with ESP though.

Take the Astra or 4 x 4, they are both pretty useless if the M62 is jammed with inept drivers who wont put their foot down going up hills.

So my advice would, the roads will be fine, take either, or the roads will be screwed, stay at home. All the above views are pointless 😆

I hope you aren't saying it's a good thing. In my experience ABS is not effective on ice, slowing in a controlled manner using the engine and gentle braking is far more effective

ABS doesnt actually help you slow quickly in snow, although it does allow you to steer.

Any car with ABS can be made to lock up and stay locked up, you just have to apply the pedal initially quite softly.

Shouldn't happen with ESP though.

Do winter tyres work? - What Car?

Winter tyre test - for sports cars! Porsche 911 tests by www.autocar.co.uk

[i]It is. A few winters ago my Legacy on summer tyres was sensational in several inches of snow. Never struggled for grip, passed everything.It is.[/i]

The Jag X-Type 3.0i AWD that I had a couple of winters ago (we got a load of snow for a long time) had brilliant grip, even on bald(ish) tyres - scary though when braking 😯

We had a Forester (much missed.. 🙁 ), for winter driving summer tyres were OK, used with usual caution. On winter tyres, unstoppable (in a positive way I mean, not in a bad won't stop when needed way..).

We now have an XV, still on summer tyres, yet to have any concern.

Coming ooop north are you? What exactly are you expecting? The Day After Tomorrow snow? The M1 And M62 will be fine. And if I'm wrong, take the car best suited for sleeping in. Beacause its the 99% of n@bheads in-front of you stuck with their bald summer tyres causing the problems.

P.S It won't be me though. Volvo V70 with winters on! Coming through!

Shouldn't happen with ESP though.

ESP only works when you have throttle input. Try it on snow and you will see. Purposely make the car slide with no throttle and ESP does nothing. Apply throttle and it tries to stop the slide.

Also any ABS/ESP car can be made to lock up you just have to be delicate on the brake.

We're told that people on the continent are smarter than us an don the winter tyres as a matter of course over the winter months.

Well if that is truly the case they definitely are not foolproof. On the airport transfer to the airport on last years ski holiday we encountered a snow storm and it was utter chaos. The road ground to a halt, cars wheel spinning and struggling to get up the most shallow of inclines. Cars stopped in the outside lanes while the drivers were putting on snow chains. It was an eerie scene. And there was only a couple of inches of snow on the Tarmac at that time, though it was coming down thick and fast.

I suspect if it was a clear road where the driver could employ classic sniw driving technique then you might not have had a problem whatever tyres you were on. Add the general Public into the mix with a wide variety of driving ability (or lack of) and some cars without winter tyres and you have chaos.

Not sure about that. I'm sure I've read that they contain accelerometers so can tell if you've locked up all four wheels and are still moving.

I'll try it next time I get a chance 🙂

Well, for a start - if you want to make any progress up a hill in any car, turn traction control off. This means turning ESP off in any car I've had recently.

Secondly, my truck has ABS/ESP/Traction control and with it turned on, if I hit the brakes on ice, it slides. Yes, the wheeels make a horrid grinding noise as the ABS kicks in and attempts to gain traction. It still slides.

Brake gently and it generally doesn't.

The last three 4x4's I've had (all with M&S tyres), have coped ok in the snow. They've all had primitive 4wd systems (being RWD pick-up's with selectable 4wd). In RWD they are scary, but 4WD, apart from getting you moving, does actually help with steering. Rather than the back end breaking away, if you do slide on a corner, it's usually a more controllable 4 wheel slide.

I've never tried winter tyres though - an interesting test would be a pick-up with winters on, left in RWD vs one with M&S in 4wd

TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR
I've never tried winter tyres though - an interesting test would be a pick-up with winters on, left in RWD vs one with M&S in 4wd

Well, here you go. Not exactly the same, but the Chevy (on studded snow tyres) will be considerably heavier than the Navara.

Well, for a start - if you want to make any progress up a hill in any car, turn traction control off. This means turning ESP off in any car I've had recently.

Well that depends on the car I think. The Prius is remarkably good at keeping traction in snow, even on summers, which is good given that you cannot turn off TC.

In RWD they are scary, but 4WD, apart from getting you moving, does actually help with steering.

That's cos RWD is the scary thing. It'd be better to compare FWD and 4WD when cornering. RWD can randomly spin your car around whenever it feels like it on a straight road. I've seen it happen in front of me about four times on the same trip.

Your opinion, winter tyres can overcome the most inept driving. My opinion, they can't. There's not much middle ground so we'll have to leave it at that.

molgrips

That's cos RWD is the scary thing. It'd be better to compare FWD and 4WD when cornering. RWD can randomly spin your car around whenever it feels like it on a straight road. I've seen it happen in front of me about four times on the same trip.

There's nothing random about it. Pickups have very little weight over the rear axles and often have big torquey engines. Misjudge your speed round a corner, or twitch the throttle and the back end can start to slip. Most people's reaction is to lift off the accelerator leading to a weight transfer, lift off oversteer and a spin.

I had a 3.0 Hilux with an intermittently sticky clutch release bearing, so shifting into second gear sometimes the engine would just rev, then when it popped into gear it spun the rear wheels. If this happened on a corner with any moisture at all I ended up going sideways.

suburbanreuben

They can.They do! They work for me.
Even a Subaru benefits.

Are you claiming to be the world's most inept driver Rueben ? 😉 I'm not disputing that they are a benefit. I'm saying they won't overcome an inept driver as traction can still be broken easily by poor gear choice or unplanned breaking. Did you decide I wasn't a fool?

molgrips
That's cos RWD is the scary thing. It'd be better to compare FWD and 4WD when cornering. RWD can randomly spin your car around whenever it feels like it on a straight road. I've seen it happen in front of me about four times on the same trip.

There's nothing random about it. Pickups have very little weight over the rear axles and often have big torquey engines. Misjudge your speed round a corner, or twitch the throttle and the back end can start to slip. Most people's reaction is to lift off the accelerator leading to a weight transfer, lift off oversteer and a spin.

There's the thing though;most people aren't self styled driving gods (I am though), so if you meet one sliding towards you,you're as ***ed as they are!

There's nothing random about it.

I meant that a RWD car can spin at any time in snow, even if you aren't cornering, accelerating or braking. That's what I meant by random - not that it doesn't have a reason.

Well that depends on the car I think. The Prius is remarkably good at keeping traction in snow, even on summers, which is good given that you cannot turn off TC.

Tyre width is the key thing I think. Prius will be on relatively narrow ones compared to everything these days. Standard cars have massive tyres that would have only been on sports cars 15-20 yrs ago. Remember my dads old marina in the 80's happily got around in quite deep snow.....was appalling at every other aspect of being a car though.....

molgrips

I meant that a RWD car can spin at any time in snow, even if you aren't cornering, accelerating or braking. That's what I meant by random - not that it doesn't have a reason.

Okay so, which is it? It's either a random event perhaps caused by unseen cosmic radiation, extra terrestrials, poltergeists or gremlins...or it has a reason?

I meant that a RWD car can spin at any time in snow, even if you aren't cornering, accelerating or braking. That's what I meant by random - not that it doesn't have a reason.

I was almost too scared to drive after reading that. Then I remembered I have a FWD car with M&S tyres so I'll be fine.... Phew ! 😉

I was almost too scared to drive after reading that. Then I remembered I have a FWD car with M&S tyres so I'll be fine.... Phew ! 

My god, have you learnt anything whilst you've been here? M&S tyres aren't winter tyres, and if you even think about starting your car in conditions below 10 degrees, you will die in a tangled mess of burning metal, the baby robins nesting in your engine bay will also meet their end and a child's face will almost, possibly get licked by a dog

^^ Nice try artist but you missed out references to kittens and making progress.

These aren't just normal tyres these are wide treaded, soft compounded, all terrain, mega grippy

M&S tyres

[i]sorry, couldn't resist any longer [/i]

RWD cars with wide, low-profile tyres and no weight over the driving wheels = hopeless

A rwd will not just spin on a straight road, putting your foot down on a straight road in a rwd can cause it to slide, as mine was tonight with ESP off, but if you practice and make the car do it, it then becomes very controllable and fun.

What I've found is that in a front wheel drive car on snow you can accelerate through a corner and all manner of things start happening to the throttle and brakes on each wheel, but it's still all smooth and you can get around the corner unbelievably quick using near zero skill, as the car drives itself. Does take commitment though not to brake or come of the accelerator.

Do the same in rwd and the computer has to work much harder, it's more jerkey, and basically you come to a crawl.

A rwd will not just spin on a straight road

I take it you never drove a Vauxhall Chevette?

Yes, yes they will, for no apparent reason....

Modern cars, maybe not so much though

A lotus Elise is incapable of driving in a straight line on slippery surface. I watched one in the work car park a few years ago trying to get out of the car park. It's a flat car park as as soon as the driver feed in any power it would just spin. He ended up abandoning the car as the road was icy too - it had rained earlier in the day, washed off the salt then froze over later in the afternoon, so there was no way he could drive it on the road as that was just as icy.

A rwd will not just spin on a straight road

Yes, you need to have you foot down, but you always have if you are driving. There is always some torque through the rear wheels even if you aren't accelerating, so if the road is slippery enough then it'll wheelspin and then slide. All it takes is an extra slippery bit of snow or ice and boom - even if you are just driving along.

FWD will also wheelspin if the road is icy enough of course but it doesn't cause a spin.

At the end of the day though doesn't it all come down to driving to the conditions?

My Mum's old 2CV (now departed, sadly [thankfully?]) was brilliant to drive in the snow, as long as you were gentle on the brakes and didn't try to go mad. It would happily trundle up and down the hills of Teesdale without any fuss.

"What I've found is that in a front wheel drive car on snow you can accelerate through a corner and all manner of things start happening to the throttle and brakes on each wheel"

"Do the same in rwd and the computer has to work much harder, it's more jerkey, and basically you come to a crawl."

ABS and computers . pah - you deserve to crawl - its a default to slow fail safe for folk who cant drive 😀

re the 2cv - it seems to me that the french can just build cars that work well in the snow - both my berlingos are only defeated when the snow gets above the front bumper..... once in 6 years and when i was up scolty the other week and folks in fancy motors and even 4x4s were making mince of getting out on the ice - my berlingo and the 307 that exited before me did so as if it were a dry sunny day.

PedLad, have you been up north yet? What was your final choice? This thread seems to have been hijacked by the how to drive in winter/winter tyres brigade.

I drove from Sheffield to Leeds last night on the M1.Leaving Sheffield in heavy snow, I almost didn't make it......no wait..it was absolutely fine.

A rwd will not just spin on a straight road

I beg to differ. Wife nicked my car with winter tyres and 4 wheel drive as it was snowing, so I had to take her Z4 to work in the Peak. Coming down hill towards the fox house in 2nd gear, not touching brake or accelerator and I still couldn't hold it in a straight line. The back just wanted to go past the front.

Managed to slew it into the Fox House car park, put the 4 snow socks on and continued to work no bother at all.

Snow socks are very impressive in the right conditions.

Guess which vehicle here is running winter rubber 🙂

(sorry for Facebook link but cannot find the source video elsewhere)