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Great start to Tuesday morning as I take the dog out for a stroll and notice that my car was missing from the drive.
Keys not taken, but car definitely has been.
Police and insurance informed.
Wondered if there was anything I need to be aware of from the perspective of the insurance company to get the best outcome?
Land Rover? Seems to be a few going recently! I think a lot of key cloning.
Hope the claim goes smoothly.
Bad luck, that's horrible 😔
Was it a keyless entry car?
The poster above mentioned Land Rovers, it is unbelievable how many are going missing here. Probably 2-3 a week being posted on our local facebook group and it's only a small town.
what vehicle was it?
I would start looking for similar age/mileage/condition cars, so when the insurance company try and kick you in the balls, you have evidence of the value of the vehicle.
What a naff situation!
Kia Ceed, hardly the height of desirability...
Keyless, keys are still in the house in the metal box they normally live in.
Friend has his brand new LR stolen from the drive, he could even track it and told the Police where it was.
They just gave him a crime number.
A day or so later, the tracker went dead.
Kia Ceed, hardly the height of desirability…
They are very nice cars!
That really sucks!
did you ever actually test it to make sure it was really blocking the signal? Kias have notoriously poor security for their keyless entry system!Keyless, keys are still in the house in the metal box they normally live in.
Motion/camera activated lights on the drive for the future?
Motion/camera activated lights on the drive for the future?
Appears to make no difference to a mask and/or hoodie wearing scumbag, other than make it a little easier for them to see what they're doing
Are the keys / key box within view or line of sight of any window or letter box etc?
I believe that there are key scanners available that can scan your keys from a distance, just needing line of sight, enabling thieves to effectively copy your keys on the drive way....the metal box had to be specific to block keys - can't just be a cash box etc.
Tic-tok challenge apparently. See 'Bleeping computer' etc.
Kias have notoriously poor security for their keyless entry system!
All the keyless systems have the same weakness, you just need a $20 repeater to start the car on the drive and you can drive it off without the keys.....
What happens with a stolen Kia? Is it used for committing crimes, sold, shipped abroad or stripped?
Shipped to Africa / Eastern Europe in a container and sold on.
he metal box had to be specific to block keys – can’t just be a cash box etc.
Any metal box with a metal lid that has a good seal will probably be good enough, although if it's painted on the inside the lid won't work as it has to make electrical contact all the way round (or at least at a few points on each side).
Dunga. Thieves are stupendously sophisticated. If they're not getting access through keyless relays, then they're actively reprogramming the car with a brand new key before they even get in. On Alfas and Bimmers this is through the front radar, though I've heard of light clusters and parking sensors also being targeted on other makes - remove the device, hack the canbus, drive away. One lovely company in Romania sell a toolkit with a lock bumper and an OBD dongle for a number of cars. Bump the locks with the device, that also displays the key template code, shove the obd dongle in the socket and it immediately puts the car into "learn a new key mode". Amazing tech. Bloomin' annoying.
That's awful to hear. I mean the only positive, if there is one, is that they didn't come into your house for the keys. A neighbour of mine had a mini cooper and the culprits torched their rear patio doors, snapped the barrel lock and made their way into the house to get the keys and left by the front door. This was why they slept upstairs!
One reason I bought a Skoda was I hoped it wasn't at all (or as) desirable but the keyless and cloning thing does make me a bit anxious about the ease it could be taken. The faraday pouch is a thing, but I recently discovered you can disarm the keyless entry anyway when locking the doors.
I hope the claim goes OK and you get sorted fairly and swiftly.
Same stuff here - cars nicked every week. Similar doorbell footage posted on local facebook of someone trying car doors and someone else kicking around. I presume the someone not trying the door has the device looking for a keyless key signal?
I presume the someone not trying the door has the device looking for a keyless key signal?
Cars on drives are easy as you know which house has the key. They just use a wireless repeater which boosts the weak signal from the key so that it appears to be right next to the car door. Car just unlocks and you press the ignition and drive off. The repeater is just a small box of electronics you point at the front door, hoping the keys are in the hallway. If they are, bingo - you have a new car.
It would be very easy to redesign keyless entry to prevent this attack using 'time of flight' measurement, but there is no incentive for the manufacturers to bother - until their cars become uninsurable that it.
In the case of a friends LR, they drove it to a dodgy garage where they removed the tracker and probably reprogrammed new keys. He gave the Police details of the location from the Tracker and they just gave him a crime number! No one seems bothered about stopping it.
I think siemens have already produced keys that shut themselves down if they're not moving. So if they're in a drawer they won't relay. You can also buy batteries that replace the standard CR2032 cells that work in a similar way.
Does this technology work with any keyless entry or just the type that auto unlocks doors? I have keyless entry on our two cars but they both require a physical push on the button on the fob to unlock the door.
Will be see a new demand for old school deterrents like steering wheel locks?
My Skoda, if Keyless is activated then you only have to tap the door handle to lock and unlock it. If you lock the car with the key fob button, and within five seconds tap the door handle, then it deadlocks the car and disarms the keyless so to unlock it again you have to press the key-fob unlock button. Seemingly, this would prevent the theft by a repeater or cloning box.
"Keyless" usually refers to touch sensitive door handles where touching the handle makes the car call up the key over radio, the key then responds with an encrypted message that unlocks the car. It's basically the car pressing the button on your remote, remotely.
Yep steering wheel locks are what is being recommended to people on the alfa forum I'm on.
We had a car nicked off the drive 1st April last year. We have gone back to the 1980's with a steering wheel lock. They are apparently really hard to get off without power tools and are meant to be a good deterrent. Bit of a PITA but better than getting a car nicked. Lots of cars getting nicked here in leafy Surrey.
They just use a wireless repeater which boosts the weak signal from the key so that it appears to be right next to the car door.
It seems just about impossible to prevent when the talk is about relay devices projecting 10-15 metres into the house. Rather difficult to locate your key that far from anywhere outside your house. Unless its in a metal box etc.
That's really shit @lunge, hope it gets resolved with minimal hassle.
I think siemens have already produced keys that shut themselves down if they’re not moving.
They've been available for several years. No motion, no signal.
It's mad isn't it. The technology of the manufacturers is just lagging behind the wizardry of the car thieves. That Alfa video is bonkers.
Now if someone could just make a crook-lock that event he lockpicking lawyer couldn't defeat, they would be quids in!
Picking up our first keyless car on Friday, just a Fiesta but I'm already a bit concerned at the risk.
Will try and make sure one of the old fashioned cars goes in front of it to block it in.
Owned a kodiaq with keyless for 5 years and did not know that. Explains why I thought the lock /fob was a bit dodgy from time to time-turns out it was a design feature…
We have gone back to the 1980’s with a steering wheel lock. They are apparently really hard to get off without power tools and are meant to be a good deterrent.
I use a Stoplock Pro on my van - reviews compare it favourably to the likes of Dislocks which are more of a PITA to use. Stoplock less cumbersome hence always gets used. Unsure exactly how effective it is but all I hope for is it makes them go for the next van along without a steering lock device. In a shark attack you only need to be a faster swimmer than your buddy...
This is a shit state to be in. Footflaps has already suggested a design way for this to be prevented, but here we are, looking at steering locks, blocking cars in, aftermarket this and that.... rubbish.
Lunge - hope it is all resolved asap for you.
Picking up our first keyless car on Friday, just a Fiesta but I’m already a bit concerned at the risk.
Will try and make sure one of the old fashioned cars goes in front of it to block it in.
At risk of being a doom-monger, Fiestas are currently the most stolen car in the UK.
https://www.whatcar.com/news/the-most-stolen-cars-in-the-uk/n21162
Fiestas are currently the most stolen car in the UK.
Bogus stat alert. There are over 1.5M Fiestas on the road ( https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/most-popular-cars-in-the-uk) so you'd expect there to be a lot of them stolen - most of their top 10 nicked are also in the top 10 on the road. The 3.7K stolen Range Rovers will come from a much smaller base so that's a far more concerning total.
At risk of being a doom-monger, Fiestas are currently the most stolen car in the UK.
They're also one of the most common cars in the UK, so I would guess the odds per car are still quite low.
I have keyless entry on our two cars but they both require a physical push on the button on the fob to unlock the door.
then you dont have keyless entry.
My fiesta ST has keyless start, so when in the car, i just press the start/stop button, but it doesnt have keyless entry, as i have to press unlock on the fob.
I wonder if this is any more or less secure than a full keyless entry system, as the act of physically pressing the button isnt possible by the thieves and their clever scanners.
At risk of being a doom-monger, Fiestas are currently the most stolen car in the UK.
in the same way I would imagine a Carrera is the most stolen bicycle.
Motion/camera activated lights on the drive for the future?
Appears to make no difference to a mask and/or hoodie wearing scumbag,
there was another post this morning where apparently a hoodie was scared off by the presence of a camera. no idea whether lights were involved though 🤷♂️ I accept though it very much depends what sort of area you live in as to how brazen the thieves are!!
Yes, I did think as a proportion of the vehicle numbers it was skewed. I did read that JLR used to offer free insurance for the first year on Rangies and Landies, but this was withdrawn such was the prevalence of theft. Each to their own and what not, but I can't imagine buying a car as flash as a big Range Rover that I was pretty sure going to be targeted one way or another. I don't think I would sleep at night!
franksinatra
Full Member
Will be see a new demand for old school deterrents like steering wheel locks?
Sounds like just not getting a keyless setup is a big help. I've had it in the past and thought I was missing out at the moment, reading this thread it doesn't seem like such a loss.
Sounds like just not getting a keyless setup is a big help.
Getting harder and harder as it's becoming the norm now on some models.
He gave the Police details of the location from the Tracker and they just gave him a crime number! No one seems bothered about stopping it.
I'm sure the police would love to but they probably are using up all their resources trying to stop people abusing and terrorising each other and ruining lives in a variety of ways. Your car is insured, no-one was hurt, so I imagine it's a lower priority than a lot of stuff.
That's not to say it's okay - it's horrible having stuff stolen even if you aren't hurt after all - it's just a sad state of affairs when services don't get the funding they need. Just don't say the police 'aren't bothered' as if they are all sitting around with their feet up eating doughnuts.
We use StopLock too. They come with the best reviews. Nice big visible deterrent and the other factor, the neighbour getting a new Range Rover as better temptation than our replacement car (Volvo).
I think siemens have already produced keys that shut themselves down if they’re not moving. So if they’re in a drawer they won’t relay.
That's only half of the current problem - apparently a lot of cars are vulnerable to physical attack and hacking without the need for the key - current Toyota/Lexus models apparently you can remove the bumper to access the headlight control ECU, which can then be used to unlock the car and program a new key. Land Rovers can have holes cut in the bodywork to access the ECU, which can then be swapped to one which has been tampered with to allow the car to start etc. There are solutions like ECU connected immobilisers (Autowatch Ghost) but they need to be fitted, or physical security like a disklock...
That's rubbish, my sympathies. I had a Civic stolen about a decade ago, pre-keyless, heard the alarm on the road outside, by the time I got to the window it was driving down the street. Once they're in seemingly they have devices that can add a key or bypass the immobiliser so it can be driven away.
No hassles with the insurance company, sent off paperwork and my keys, their offer was fine so I had a cheque within a week or so.
You can normally disable keyless entry, as we have with my wife’s iD3 (although I’m not sure if this actually prevents the bandits entirely).
There are a huge number of Range Rovers and Land Rovers round us, with lots of theft reports. They are all starting to sprout old school steering wheel locks.
It is so ridiculously frustrating - I’d like a new car, but everything I’d want would be a risk so I stick with my 8 year old car instead. Total scum.
Thieves are stupendously sophisticated.
No cars manufacturers are stupendously stupid! (and that is a professional opinion). They still believe in security by obscurity. They would not hire a genuine security expert if he was the only unemployed person on earth!
This sucks, sorry to hear. I don't understand why more cars don't have pin to drive like Tesla.
There are a huge number of Range Rovers and Land Rovers round us, with lots of theft reports.
Yeah, a friend had his Range Rover stolen (he can afford it so I don't think he cared that much) but to minimise inconvenience in the future he opted for a lowly top spec XC90. My heart bleeds for him 🤣
I don’t understand why more cars don’t have pin to drive like Tesla.
And tracker, and remote disabling.
They aren't the greatest thing to happen to cars since the electric starter, but it does show the difference between a tech company making a car, and a car company making tech.
You can remotely lock our Ford from the App, and see exactly where it is (assuming it can get a phone signal). You can even beep the horn and flash the lights. Not as clever as a pin.
If you needed a pin to start a car, wouldn't that just lead to more violent home invasions to get the pin?
I’m sure the police would love to but they probably are using up all their resources trying to stop people abusing and terrorising each other and ruining lives in a variety of ways. Your car is insured, no-one was hurt, so I imagine it’s a lower priority than a lot of stuff.
Only it’s not a “low level crime “ is it.
We are not just talking about little Jonny taking your car to go joy riding any more. We are talking about the stealing of high value cars that are sold on with the proceeds going toward the funding of organised crime groups. Not to mention that some stolen vehicles are then used in further crimes.
If the police are provided with a location of a stolen vehicle , they should damn well act upon it.
I sometimes think Line of Duty looks like a bloody fly on the wall documentary when this sort of thing is overlooked/ignored
If you needed a pin to start a car, wouldn’t that just lead to more violent home invasions to get the pin?
There is that. We have two cars (one worth next to nothing, the other a bit more valuable) and each set of keys also has the house keys on it. At night we bring the keys for the worthless car upstairs (in case of emergency) and leave the more valuable car's keys downstairs in a pretty obvious place (although not in direct view) - if some scrote wants to break in and steal the car keys, we want them to do it without putting anyone in the house at undue risk.
All the keyless systems have the same weakness, you just need a $20 repeater to start the car on the drive and you can drive it off without the keys…..
Yup. Between keyless relays and the ability to program new keys on the fly mid-theft, just about the only thing you have left now is visible deterrent.
However I've recently had a Ghost Immobiliser installed on mine, requires PIN entry to drive the car away even when the key is present and apparently it disables the OBD2 port. Bonus is it'll still let you start the car but stalls the minute you put it in gear, so I'd hear if anyone tried it. There are 6 different modules hidden that need to be found and disabled if some scrote wants away with the car, by which point I'm pretty sure they would have given up. Not particularly cheap but then neither are most of the cars being stolen so I guess it depends on whether or not you'd rather just let someone drive off and claim on the insurance.
No cars manufacturers are stupendously stupid!
Too true. On the alfa all it would need would be the ECU to shut physically disconnect the vulnerable bits of the canbus when the car was off. So the signal to the radar and the twelve volt supply. Instead the thieves are able to pop the radar off, feed the ECU backwards with 12v and then start talking to it over the network. Even just monitoring that part of the network with the alarm would be a start.
It's crap, but I'm pretty pragmatic about it.
The car is insured, they didn't come into the house and no harm was done to me or my family.
As long as the insurance firm don't play silly buggers then hopefully all will be sorted quickly.
So long as you have the keys I think you'll be ok. My KTM was taken off the driveway of our temporary house in the autumn. 4 blokes turned up in a transit and physically carried it into the back of the van one night. Insurance paid out within two weeks.
That’s not to say it’s okay – it’s horrible having stuff stolen even if you aren’t hurt after all – it’s just a sad state of affairs when services don’t get the funding they need. Just don’t say the police ‘aren’t bothered’ as if they are all sitting around with their feet up eating doughnuts.
Very good point.
Picking up our first keyless car on Friday, just a Fiesta but I’m already a bit concerned at the risk.
Will try and make sure one of the old fashioned cars goes in front of it to block it in.
You can turn it off, that was the first thing I did with my Focus. A really minor inconvenience next to losing your car.
Interestingly I wonder how that works on Fords like mine, they have an on board modem which is built into the guts of the car so can always be tracked unless you were to strip the whole thing out.
You can remotely lock our Ford from the App
But not deadlock it.
It would also be laughably easy to reset the account within minutes of them leaving with it as they just need access to Sync and the VIN number.
No cars manufacturers are stupendously stupid! (and that is a professional opinion). They still believe in security by obscurity. They would not hire a genuine security expert if he was the only unemployed person on earth!
No, no, you're wrong, it's all those folk on YouTube and the folk making bump keys based on decades old designs that are at fault!
No cars manufacturers are stupendously stupid!
Are they really though? All I'm seeing here is people buying more new cars from them with their insurance. The car makers are laughing!
In the case of a friends LR, they drove it to a dodgy garage where they removed the tracker and probably reprogrammed new keys. He gave the Police details of the location from the Tracker and they just gave him a crime number! No one seems bothered about stopping it.
presumably they provided that information to insurers as well. I think if this lack of interest by police is common insurers may start to be more proactive themselves.
I agree with revs1972 though - vehicle theft like this with a known location should be the “in” to disrupting organised crime. Perhaps it is - they don’t care about your LR but now they know where the vehicles go so they can mount a bigger operation but I suspect they are too busy dealing with the mental health cases the NHS isn’t coping with, the neighbourhood disputes the council isn’t resolving etc.
im intrigued though. Most cars have a GPS now. Most of the top end cars with keyless entry probably also have a “SOS” button, I’ve never used that but my understanding is it’s a aimless 4g phone embedded in the car. So can the manufacturer not either already, or fairly simply develop “find my car” type tracking?
I have embedded "find my car" type tracking in the alfa. Whatever dongle the scum plug in disables that also. Don't assume this is restricted to one make. It feels like car "manufacturers" are actually just system integrators. They go to bosch, continental, delphi or TRW and say "do you have a device that does XYZ", out comes their laminated catalogue of dreams and they fill in the order form with the little blue pen. Perhaps its the numpties at bosch we should point the finger at?
Are they really though? All I’m seeing here is people buying more new cars from them with their insurance. The car makers are laughing!
Correct - all the manufactures need to do is not be the worst and they keep selling cars. People buy cars based on BHP, MPG not how easy it is to steal. Security became an important differentiator with phones and we very quickly got biometrics built in to relatively low cost devices (compared to a new car).
The technology exists but there is no will from the manufactures to make their product supper secure whilst we still buying them.
If the police are provided with a location of a stolen vehicle , they should damn well act upon it.
Yes get the chopper up, grab the swat team out of the canteen and get a quick warrant - job done.
Where have you been for the last decade or so?
Proactive policing and investigation is on its arse. No resources, not enough staff, poor morale for a variety of reasons and a burgeoning workload.
Vehicle crime isn’t even a policing priority, as set by the Home Office so unlikely to be tasked activity for proactive investigation.
The tories have ****ed up another public service, get used to it.
bugger. Little S$£ts
We had our first campervan stolen off the drive during the day, again with no keys. Insurance were ok with the vehicle it was the contents that were a pain which shouldn’t affect you.
I have embedded “find my car” type tracking in the alfa. Whatever dongle the scum plug in disables that also.
Maybe not always. A friend of mine got his very fancy Bimmer M series stolen off his drive in January, but he actually got it back fine.
Apparently the thieves disabled the BMW tracker but my friend also fitted an additional aftermarket one, and they'd parked it up in an anonomous location for a few days to see if it had any such backup. Obviously it did - they didn't get caught, but he got his car back.
Kia seem to to the no1 car to nick (easy) in the USA it's on YouTube ect so suspect the UK will be playing catch up.
Only it’s not a “low level crime “ is it.
No, it's not. But no-one is in immediate danger of violence or death. I imagine those are the top priority when resources are at their lowest.
Hyundai already know where my car is all the time. I can open the app and they'll tell me.
How long would it take to wire in a simple switch to the fuel pump? Cranking without firing is noisy and should not harm the engine on the off chance little ned gets in and tries to take off.
Wont work on everything, but most modern cars have either a lift pump or hp pump thats 2 wires off a relay. Most throw a cel at low fuel rail pressure but a reset is a much better result than going through the rigmarole of insurance and replacing the car.
Plus it wont be limp home cel, probably one that resets with an engine on - off.
But would be stored in the ecu.
Wouldn't work on cam driven hp tandem diesels pumps though
i thought those StopLocks things were not advised, as they act as a lever to enable the thief to break the steering lock? i suppose theyve still got the thing stuck on the steering wheel, so they cant drive very easily.
Olly
Free Memberi thought those StopLocks things were not advised, as they act as a lever to enable the thief to break the steering lock? i suppose theyve still got the thing stuck on the steering wheel, so they cant drive very easily
Maybe with steering locks locked with a key. Keyless start means a solenoid, made me jump first time I heard it in the work Connect. So if they can hack the car, the steering lock will disengage anyway.
In winter at least I think I could get outside and pass them a cuppa before they manage to start my Relic, even if they bypass the immobiliser it takes some effort to start it on a cold morning.
People using Stoplocks forget that the steering wheel is soft metal and very easy to cut, which would make removing the lock take a few seconds! The full disclock lock takes about 3 mins with a grinder.
I think the lockbox over the pedals is more of a pain for thieves, get the ones without exposed locks/padlocks.
You guys need a car where you have to wiggle the actual key just right in the hole to get in.
Just seems mental that if the keys can be programmed not to transmit when not moving that this hasn’t been instigated long ago.
How long would it take to wire in a simple switch to the fuel pump?
Back in the day in my Mk3 Escort, I cut the wire to the ignition barrel and reconnected it via a switch hidden behind a fake speaker grille. Prior to that I used to take the coil lead with me if I parked up anywhere dodgy. Sometimes the Mk1 Viper approach is the most effective.
i thought those StopLocks things were not advised, as they act as a lever to enable the thief to break the steering lock?
That being the case, you'd still have to drive off with a lump of metal kneecapping you the first time you went round the corner.
the steering wheel is soft metal and very easy to cut,
Is it? I was always under the impression that the opposite was true, it was generally easier to cut a Crooklock than the wheel. Maybe that was just a myth, IDK.
Wouldn’t work on cam driven hp tandem diesels pumps though
Wouldn't really work on anything with direct injection. As long as the cars got more than (about) 1/4 of a tank of fuel the HP pump will slurp up fuel that's in the pump pot and it'll fill itself.
It'll run like a bag of nails and eventually start breaking stuff though.
Just seems mental that if the keys can be programmed not to transmit when not moving that this hasn’t been instigated long ago.
:LOL:
Yeah, it's just a few lines of code, dead simple. :rolleyes:
Actually means it needs a bigger battery, probably two sensors for redundancy, plus a load of error checking hardware/software as the key is a secure device, don't want any failures in that do you.
And there are two of them.
Most companies will probably bypass that tech completely and go straight to phone as key and UHF tagging.
So you actually need the device physically within range of the car, using UHF location and the phones own communication systems to identify and locate.
But, we'll see how long it takes them to crack that.
Then there's all the new cybersecurity legal requirements that are being rolled out.
That's a whole new stinking can of worms.
I had something similar in an old Astra. Fake front fog light switch, turn ignition on, press fog switch then start.
Back in the day in my Mk3 Escort, I cut the wire to the ignition barrel and reconnected it via a switch hidden behind a fake speaker grille. Prior to that I used to take the coil lead with me if I parked up anywhere dodgy. Sometimes the Mk1 Viper approach is the most effective.
One of the lads used to do that at matches - open up his xr3i bonnet, take the leads with him into the sports centre.
Was ok until one day he came out, car had gone. 4 cars further down the row was another escort with the bonnet up, leads gone...
My Tesla obviously uses phone as key but apparently this can still be hacked - same principle but requires someone to get within about 2 inches of the phone to transmit, so I guess much less likely. Still think I might turn on the pin to drive feature though!
Is it? I was always under the impression that the opposite was true, it was generally easier to cut a Crooklock than the wheel. Maybe that was just a myth, IDK.
Steering wheels used to be very tough, a thickish metal rim (aluminium casting at a guess) covered in some sort of high density PU foam and then the decorative cover.
But they tend to really really really hurt in a crash.
So no, now they are (generally) quite flexible and easy to cut or bend, pretty sure some are now almost completely plastic, almost no core to them at all. You could probably cut through many of them with a pair of pruning shears using both hands.
Kia seem to to the no1 car to nick (easy) in the USA it’s on YouTube ect so suspect the UK will be playing catch up.
TikTok challenge etc is a different thing and only in North America. In the US, it wasn't mandatory to install immobilizers, so for a couple of years, Kia saved £2.34 per car by not installing them. They've been compulsory in Europe (inc UK) for ages...IIRC.