[Closed] Car 'road tax' discs...

Dammit, that's my idea for bike stickers shaped like tax discs scotched, then 😉

I know, I did think that 🙂

I am a bit surprised though since I figured that people would report cars with out of date tax but maybe in reality that doesn't happen and they're really identified by not being SORN'd or by police and ANPR in their cars.

Hurrah!

Now I now longer have to carry my motorbike tax disc around in my wallet

Slight pain in the arse, working in a garage I've had instances were the customer has brought an untaxed car in, no problems if you know/spot it but....

Slight pain in the arse, working in a garage I've had instances were the customer has brought an untaxed car in, no problems if you know/spot it but....

People who need check just need to integrate an extra step in their system to run an online check. Ie when the invoice gets done or when the car gets booked in. Shouldnt take long to do.

They should just ditch it altogether and whack the difference onto fuel, which would reflect the impact of individual vehicle emissions more accurately. I bet it'd save an absolute fortune in admin costs and whatnot, too. (Won't happen because putting up fuel costs is political suicide, obviously, I know.)

Someone give me a reason why this is a bad idea, I'd be interested to know if I've missed some reason why VED is charged separately at a fixed rate.

The only downside I can think of adding it to fuel tax is that it doesn't reflect damage done to roads - eg a truck driving a stretch of road will do more damage than a car driving over it, say 50 times (damage is proportional to axle weight to power of 4 IIRC). But then it's vehicle tax, I guess not road tax 🙂

Origin of car tax: Commons in 1888
Chancellor George Goschen: Apart from the Carriage Tax, which is a tax mainly on the more luxurious carriages - carriages, used for pleasure - there is at present no tax on any other vehicles, however much they may destroy the roads.

We propose to put a duty of £1 a-year upon every vehicle exceeding 10 cwt. in weight, a very moderate limit to take.

Members will acknowledge that the principle that all those who use the roads should pay for them, and should pay in some proportion to the wear and tear that they cause, is just. But I have not yet exhausted the subject. We propose, also, to put a very small Wheel Tax upon every vehicle.

Colonel Nolan, MP for Galway North: Not on carts?

Chancellor Goschen: Yes. We propose a duty of 2s. 6d. per wheel upon all carts over 2 cwt.

Colonel Nolan: Oh!

How many read this bit....

Car tax exists to pay for the damage cars do! How much damage does a bike do?

Isn't that actually road tax - you know, when it actually existed...

So VED has finally caught up with TV licencing... well not until next October, but the whole paying by DD and allowing people to do it monthly rather than every 6/12 months only thing is hardly ground breaking...

TBH its way overdue, the disc is basically just a receipt that you put on display, and the Rozzers and insurers more often than not will be interrogating the DVLA database with the car's Reg' number rather than actually bothering to look through a windscreen...

I'm sure cyclists will still be accused of not paying our fair share of "Road Tax" round bit of paper on display or not...

How much damage does a bike do?

IIRC if a bike was £100 tax then a car would be £10k 🙂

The only downside I can think of adding it to fuel tax is that it doesn't reflect damage done to roads - eg a truck driving a stretch of road will do more damage than a car driving over it, say 50 times (damage is proportional to axle weight to power of 4 IIRC). But then it's vehicle tax, I guess not road tax

To a point how much damage does a truck do and then what is the mpg of a standard HGV? Might encourage more efficient trucks as fuel costs would rise.

Gets round the some of the stupid fixed costs of owning a car. People say trains/buses cost more, forgetting that they have the insurance, VED, HP/Loan/PCP/etc to cover as well as the fuel for the journey. Also gets round having to pay some costs for a car even if you don't use it

Osborne is evil - has he not thought about all those people who are employed making printed tax disc holders!

And how am I supposed to know when I can shop an annoying neighbour in to the police?

The only downside I can think of adding it to fuel tax is that it doesn't reflect damage done to roads - eg a truck driving a stretch of road will do more damage than a car driving over it, say 50 times (damage is proportional to axle weight to power of 4 IIRC). But then it's vehicle tax, I guess not road tax

Ah, yes. That's true. Oh well.

IIRC if a bike was £100 tax then a car would be £10k

The calculation I saw came out nearer to £4 million for a Mondeo...

Helmets to compulsory and HIV Vests as well.

Looks like we need some kind of special vest too.... TBF at the bottom of this posters rant he mentions something about a brighter tomorrow with UKIP in place....

Isn't that actually road tax - you know, when it actually existed...

Yes, but as most? motorists seem not to be aware it has changed, might be worth reminding them of why it was introduced? At the same time reminding them it got dumped in 1937 and is now based on the pollution you cause.

Always thought it was weird that you get a taxdisc but not an MOT disc.

Will more cars be cloned now?

I've not been displaying my 'tax' disc for about 6 months. not been stopped yet. wasn't even noticed on my MOT (whether they check that or not?).

That's a shame always felt quite good whilst queuing for my tax exempt disc for my vehicle 🙂

I've not been displaying my 'tax' disc for about 6 months. not been stopped yet. wasn't even noticed on my MOT (whether they check that or not?).

My tax disc holder is a bit damaged at the bottom and disc fell out and slipped down the dash. I didn't even notice, but one of my neighbours must of done as the next time I got in the van I had a note on the window asking my call the police station so they could have a chat about my car tax. The guy I spoke to had checked it on the database, saw it was taxed and gave me a very friendly reminder that I had to display the disc. All very genial and friendly, no worries.

Does show that some folk do keep an eye on tax discs, and I'm sure that if I hadn't been taxed I would of been a bit more serious.

A missed opportunity for abolition. The tax system should be simplified so as to be cheaper to collect and more transparent. Everything like insurance tax, air passenger tax, BBC licence fee, road tax etc should be abolished. Collect individual tax through fuel duty, VAT, and income tax. In fact get rid of national insurance as well since it is now just another tax as anyone can claim most benefits without ever having paid NI.

And I've just remembered that I just recently bought new tax disc holders for my and Mrs Clubber's cars as I got fed up with the old ones falling off all the time. Dammit. That's £4 wasted! 🙂

I've not been displaying my 'tax' disc for about 6 months. not been stopped yet. wasn't even noticed on my MOT (whether they check that or not?).

They don't.

I've MOT'd my MG the last few years just for the sake of giving it a run as I've not had time to use it, check the SORN is upto date, and drive it in.

You need MOT and insurance to get tax, but not the other way round (otherwise you'd be stuffed if one expired before the other).

They should just ditch it altogether and whack the difference onto fuel, which would reflect the impact of individual vehicle emissions more accurately. ....
Someone give me a reason why this is a bad idea,

Oooh ooh [i]*puts hand up*[/i] me sir, me...

The point of Car Tax is that it is a "nudge" to push people towards buying cars that produce lower emissions.

If you are choosing between two cars then £20 a year for Band B versus £125 for Band E will "nudge" many people towards choosing the Band B car.

But if you roll that cost into fuel then you are only talking about ~80 litres of unleaded over the course of a year. So now it is a choice between say a 35.7mpg vs 34.7mpg car which is far less compelling even though it may amount to the same cost over a year.

Origin of car tax: Commons in 1888

Surely that is the origin of the road fund license, which was abolished 50 odd years later.

So VED has finally caught up with TV licencing... well not until next October, but the whole paying by DD and allowing people to do it monthly rather than every 6/12 months only thing is hardly ground breaking...

I'm not sure he's thought that through. There are a lot of people find themselves in court for not having insurance because their policy is cancelled when DD's fail. He's either going to end up with less efficient collections OR put an extra load on the courts (at a cost to the govt - which is probably not met through fines)

Someone give me a reason why this is a bad idea, I'd be interested to know if I've missed some reason why VED is charged separately at a fixed rate.

Shame there isn't a discount for not having the admin associated with paper discs.

People who need check just need to integrate an extra step in their system to run an online check. Ie when the invoice gets done or when the car gets booked in. Shouldnt take long to do.

Pushes extra expense onto small businesses though.

One of the top comments on the BBC made this point:

I am a Valet driver who regularly drives peoples cars on public roads (20 - 30 a day), how will I know now if I'm driving an untaxed vehicle? at the present time NO DISC = NO DRIVE. will the law change to allow me a 'get out of jail free card' if I'm caught out? I doubt it!

Always thought it was weird that you get a taxdisc but not an MOT disc.

Although MOT in Germany is every 2 years, and tax is a bill once per year.

Wouldn't any penalty for that apply to the owner, not the driver?

Insurance technically could be an issue but I'd expect insurance to change to account for that since car tax has no bearing on road worthiness (I know the link to MOT but it's still no proof of it) and they don't check for MOT before valet driving, do they?

http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/driving-without-tax.html

Pushes extra expense onto small businesses though.

It does, but not a very big one, surely. How long and how much expense does it take to plug in a reg number to a website or an app?

Wouldn't any penalty for that apply to the owner, not the driver?

You would expect so, but I can see anything that says for sure, just that the fine will be sent to the registered keeper.

How long and how much expense does it take to plug in a reg number to a website or an app?

That depends what the government decide to charge for access I think.

If it is free (as it should be) then fair enough, but I doubt the Tories will miss a chance to make some money on this.

Im quite pleased, Im fed up with our disc holder peeling itself off the windscreen all the time!

I still quite like the idea of some sort of additional VED fuel duty, any way you cut it a more environmentally unfriendly vehicle or one which weighs a lot and hence also returns poor MPG will get hit harder than a teeny tiny, light weight vehicle with a minimal MPG,

It hits drivers who are a bit heavy with their Right foot harder, It hits people who make lots of unnecessary journeys by car...

Those who drive efficient, lighter weight IC engined vehicles, who make minimal use of their motorized transport and drive sensibly when the do, will pay proportionately less "VED" as they consume less fuel...

The only group it is perhaps not ideal for are those who might get some sort of VED exemption at present, for instance those with specific disabilities, and as the "Tax" is taken at the pump they would either be left out of pocket until they could get a rebate processed (probably based on keeping receipts and putting a claim into HMRC), or some sort of a Card could be provided, entitling the holder to a VED Deduction at the till/pump, of course this would get the DM lot up in arms and accusations of abuse would be widespread.

IIRC even Clarkson was in favour of just bunging a VED equivalent on top of fuel duty as the polutiest and/or most road damaging vehicles are normally also the least fuel efficient.

As a "Tax" it is directly proportionate to the vehicles impact on the environment and roads.

Those who Drive Leccy cars will of course remain "VED Exempt" but then they'd still be at the mercey of EDF / Gittish Bas's pricing, and the Government gets their revenue per mile/Gallon/KW one way or the other, and it's easier/cheaper to administer...

All IMO of course...

MOT discs in Northern Ireland too. And we can only get the MOT done at test centres.

I'm glad the VED disc is going, but more importantly I'm happier that you will be able to spread the cost of the "tax" on a monthly basis..

Only one point, if you do buy a s/h car, how will you know it's taxed??

Cos when you send off V5 or whatever it's called now to re-register it, you get a direct debit form to start paying "tax" on it.

I'm happier that you will be able to spread the cost of the "tax" on a monthly basis..

Slightly perturbed that this option will apparently cost 5% more.

Don't most companies give you a [i]discount[/i] for paying by direct debit?

Only one point, if you do buy a s/h car, how will you know it's taxed??

The same way as you can do now? Whack the reg into any one of a number of websites and find out if its taxed or not.

I thought for a moment there car tax was going altogether, and it would be put on fuel, ah well that may take another 93 years and by then we will have run out of oil!

Good that a piece of vision clutter is going to be removed from windscreens.

How much fuel duty would you need to add though?

Band G petrol car driving 10,000 miles a year @ 40mpg

= £1477 in fuel

So presumable you want this to be + £175 to cover the tax.

You would need to add 15p a litre

For a more STW version

Diesel Audi A4 (natch)

Band F = £140 tax
10,000 miles at 52 mpg = £1200

You would need to add 16p a litre to get the £140 tax back

So a couple of pennies on fuel won't cover it

For a more STW version

Diesel Audi A4 (natch)

Band F = £140 tax
10,000 miles at 52 mpg = £1200

What about an [url= http://www.nextgreencar.com/view-car/47181/AUDI-A3-1.2-TFSI-SE-105PS-S-Tronic-Petrol-Semi-automatic-7-speed ]Audi A3 1.2[/url]

Band C = £30 a year.
10,000 miles at 58mpg = ?

Don't most companies give you a discount for paying by direct debit?

You would need to add 16p a litre to get the £140 tax back

eltonerino - Member

And we can only get the MOT done at test centres.

Helmets to compulsory and HIV Vests as well.

Do they do bad versions?

Don't most companies give you a discount for paying by direct debit?

TV licence is more expensive via quarterly DD as well - by about £5.

You would need to add 16p a litre to get the £140 tax back

Bin VED, [b]drop[/b] the price of fuel and bring in a proper well thought out road pricing scheme. Link your insurance premium to that too.

Drive your 1.3L Micra on a 200 mile motorway journey at 3am? Pay 5p.
Drive your 3L V6 4x4 on a 3 mile urban journey at 8am. Pay £5.

OK, a bit generalised but the idea is sound in principle. Unfortunately it involves something being well thought out and implemented which cuts this country out from doing it.

richmtb - Member
How much fuel duty would you need to add though?

Band G petrol car driving 10,000 miles a year @ 40mpg

= £1477 in fuel

So presumable you want this to be + £175 to cover the tax.

You would need to add 15p a litre

For a more STW version

Diesel Audi A4 (natch)

Band F = £140 tax
10,000 miles at 52 mpg = £1200

You would need to add 16p a litre to get the £140 tax back

So a couple of pennies on fuel won't cover it

Depends what mileage equivalent you base it on doesn't it? [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/8940/nts2010-09.pdf ]Summary of 2010 car usage figures[/url]

looks like 10K PA might actually exceed the overall national average for cars, although Diesels appear to do higher mileages than petrol, could be a useful differentiator there as you could adjust the "VED rate" for each fuel type...

your 16p per litre would probably be under gunning it a bit TBH, but then the goal is that over the year the "Average" motorist in the "Average" car will pay about the same in VED and those on the high side and low side proportionally more or less...

As it stands and even after Georges little adjustments someone doing ~5K of private use miles a year in your example Audi pays the same VED as someone doing 25K even though the impact of their driving patterns on the environment and wear and tear on our roads network are pretty different.

Notice i mention "Private mileage", I'm sure that when it comes business mileage, companies and contractors will be keeping receipts and if there is some sort of business mileage VED ruling from HMRC it can be applied appropriately, they seldom miss a trick...

Like I said the better your car and your driving habits are on fuel the less VED you end up paying... seems eminently fair and sensible IMO...

Bin VED, drop the price of fuel and bring in a proper well thought out road pricing scheme.

No, no, please don't.

If a genuine pay-for-use road pricing scheme was brought in then motorists would actually have a legitimate case for saying that cyclists don't pay their way.

We all ALREADY pay for the roads. A road-pricing scheme would mean we were paying for them twice, unless it was accompanied by a reduction in council tax or the like.

@bigyinn not quite the same. Ours are only at DVA MOT centres. No chance of getting a cheap MOT here.
Not much chance of getting rid of tax discs either as this is a DVLA thing.

The proposed new system is so incomprehensibly odd that it might not work quite as people imagine, if at all.
eg in the future if you buy a secondhand car you do not get the existing equivalent of the "tax disc" with the car. You will have to buy / pay for a new "tax disc" as the new owner of the car. The previous owner will have to apply to get a refund on the remainder of the old "tax disc" for the car.
Lots of confusion, duplication, paperwork in the post and DVLA workload overload; if it does happen as intended.

paperwork in the post

Why would there be any of that ?
Surely part of the idea is to move the process online.

Someone give me a reason why this is a bad idea, I'd be interested to know if I've missed some reason why VED is charged separately at a fixed rate.

You'd get shafted if you lived somewhere rural wouldn't you? You'd basically be subsidising people who live in cities.

I've not been displaying my 'tax' disc for about 6 months. not been stopped yet. wasn't even noticed on my MOT (whether they check that or not?).

I haven't displayed a tax disc on any of my motorbikes for 10 years or more. I've been stopped during that time and it's not been mentioned. Just saying like. 🙂

Same here.