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I have a car with a fairly basic petrol engine. A quick look on the internet suggests I can achieve an additional 10hp for £150 (this was a pre-xmas offer). I know its not going to set the world on fire, however the car isn't doing amazing MPG and I'm sure the 10% power increase will make a bit of a difference too.
The car is due a fair bit of work in a few months (service, cam belt) so thought about trying to get this added to the deal and get it a bit cheaper. This car is going to be a keeper as apart from the poor fuel economy its in good condition and should be good for another 5 years and we owe no money on it.
I am aware that they can achieve different things with the re-map but is there a rule of thumb that would make it worthwhile, ie <£1 per ho / 1 mpg increase? I'm hoping that a good person can achieve extra power and mpg for about £200.
If anyone can recommend any good mobile or Sheffield based people that can do this please let me know.
think your sums are off - is it 10hp for £150 or 100hp?
p.s. it'll also help if you tell us what car it is
If its a Normally Aspirated petrol engine then there is a limit to what can be achieved with a simple remap.
Whether 10HP is worth the price really depends on how much power you have at the moment. if you have 90hp then 10 is a fairly useful increase. If you have 200hp then I doubt you would even feel the difference
What's the make and model of the car ?
Firstly what car is it? 10bhp is nothing to write home about and will probably not make much difference, but if its only putting out 40bhp then you might.
The increase in bhp may decrease the fuel economy, as you dont get something for nothing!
Is the car still in warranty, as remapping will almost certainly invalidate this.
Also bear in mind that you'll need to declare the remap to your insurance. Failure to do so may invalidate it.
Its a Seat Leon with a normally aspirated 1.6 ltr petrol engine, 2006. The re-map will take it from 102 to 112 hp. £150 for this (on offer) but could be achieved for less when thrown in with other work at a specialist i reckon).
WR to insurance - the company that do it say its undetectable to no need to declare.....
but then they would say that
tbh a good deep service would achieve the same increase.
remap gains are for cars with turbos bolted on. N/A petrol engines are not going to see any great increases.
youll probably find that itll move the max BHP up the curve and the torque will fall - id take torque over BHP anyday of the week.
I'd leave the 1.6 NA well alone and start saving for an old 1.8t (where a remap will get you silly gains)
Get yourself over to Seatcupra.net there's a wealth of information on there.
I don't think you'd notice it tbh. Just live with the fact that you don't have a sporty car, or just don't brake on the twisty bits 🙂
I'm not bothered about performance, its mainly the MPG. I'll mention it to the specialist when it goes for a service and see what they say.
If It was a Aygo yes for a Leon though- its not enough IMO for £150. for that much money I'd want 30bhp to make/feel a difference (weight of car).
10hp when the current power is 65hp in a 800kg car would make a noticeable difference if that makes sense.
You'd be better off with a fresh (self) oil service/filter and aftermarket air filter.
re-maps only work on turbo or turbo diesel cars, for that money I'd leave it alone.
Mine has a manufacturers remap (with warranty). My insurance company charged me +10% for the addition and they won't cover any remap over 25% increase in bhp. Mine was only 21% 🙂
A remap also won't necessarily give you better mpg. I once queried a remap of a n/a petrol car with a few specialists. For the engine in question they said the fuelling would not be changed. The best I'd get was increased torque, but the increase was probably too small to be noticeable.
Most remap specialists seem to go on about "improved driveability" ... whatever that actually means in the real world ...
I suspect a good service and oil change will be as good as anything for a non-turbo engine.
I've been toying with getting my octavia vrs remapped. It will add 35bhp and about 80ft/lb of torque. which is probably worth doing. all for £200.
10hp is not worth doing. As said a good service done by yourself to keep the cost down and leave it at that. Also make sure your brakes are in good order. If they are seized up and binding that will ruin your mpg.
Just check your tyre pressures regularly and maybe check economy figures on the next lot you buy.
I'd put that £150 on a bet saying the remap doesn't get you 10hp. If I remap my Clio (182) i'll get 4hp extra at most. Only worth it on turbo diesels imo
If it's any help the (alleged) 15bhp difference between my old v-tec 1.6 Focus and the normal 1.6 Focus was noticeable all the time, everywhere
10bhp is the difference between having the air con on or not
Worth £150?
£150/10hp = £15 per hp.
and as above really not worth it. Spend the money on keeping the car in good condition with decent suspension. brakes and tyres not buying cheap rubbish when they are worn out.
save the money towards a new car instead
I wouldn't pay that. Didn't even bother remapping my 1.8t, although I could have got something out of it. Really need to start swapping parts to get anything useful (CAI, turbo, etc.), or reliable (DV, coilpacks, etc.), with half of those changes not applicable to a NA car. Think I could have gone from 180PS to about 210PS (claimed), but in reality, the car has probably lost more horses just due to age.
Am I missing something? How will increasing the power by 10bhp lower the MPG? Surely it'd make it less fuel efficient or is the remap about making the engine more efficient and the increase in power is a side effect?
anyone remember the old topgear with the massive peoplecarrier ... the big renault
was supposed to have 220bhp or something and was pulling about 150 on the dyno. they got the most gains(on the dyno and the track) out of anything they did by giving it a full service - other things they did was light alloy wheels , better tires , suspension and brakes.... but the service made the most gains.
I bought 7 SMART ForTwos for my Business a few years back and I put a stage 1 on 5 of them and left 2 alone (basically I couldn't get them all done at once,time/distance etc.) anyhoo's of those that were done (and only I knew which ones) the Kids that used to drive them could tell and would always plum for the "modified" ones. I took some readings on petrol use (around London) and came to the conclusion that on SMART ForTwo's it's worth doing. (I eventually got the remaining 2 done as well)
I kept one of the SMARTs for myself and enjoyed it, it just felt a lot easier and spritly to drive, sold it on to a mate and he's happy with it.
I'd never go over stage 1 on a SMART though, even though it's been proven it works well.
I did put a performance chip on one of my old BMW530D Sport Tourings and that was immense.. 😉
Not worth it imo. As above, keep it well serviced & when the time comes to replace the tyres get some Eco ones. They will probably make more difference.
If its due a major service youl most likely see the improvement you seek just from the service. Especially if youve noticed the mpg dropping.
£150 on ecu remap is at best a generic map at worst a bottle of snake oil and a sticker in the form of a resistor on the temp sensor.
Especialy on a n/a motor a proper remap is done with use of rolling road before and after with money thrown at making improvements to the engines breathing aswell. Even then 10bhp is a good gain on some motors.
on SMART ForTwo's it's worth doing
Are they not turbocharged?
And all those people saying check tyre pressures/service it etc - I doubt he's considering a remap INSTEAD of those things, is he? Silly.
" I doubt he's considering a remap INSTEAD of those things, is he? Silly. "
dont know - having seen some of my friends treating services as optional.....
NO.
next question.
😉
SMART ForTwo's are indeed turbo'd.. it's very common to get them remapped, there is a whole industry built on the back of a strangled 500 or 600 or indeed a 700cc engine trying to pull along two fatties. You could (don't know now) get a remap done at a SMART dealer at one point..
I think mine cost £100.00 inc Vat at the time, I just about saved that on fuel over a year but it was the drivability that made them nicer, it also helped with the auto gear change which is notoriously poor on them.
I know someone who has a stage 4 mapped (and modded) Brabus ForTwo and it's quite bonkers, thankfully he's uprated the brakes and tyres to cope. I almost bought a Brabus myself, but I was deluded.
Shame the OP hp costs weren't correct. I quite fancy chucking £750 at my Merc and seeing what it is like with 900hp instead of just 400....
Change the air filter more regularly and keep it in good nick.
Pointless IMO
Am I missing something? How will increasing the power by 10bhp lower the MPG?
If you read what tuners say then their logic to this is that the car will reach speeds quicker so less acceleration time = better fuel economy. Real world though, even on my Octy vRS I'd only be looking at 2 or 3 mpg more than I'm getting now, at the very most. I doubt I'd notice it.
Certainly wouldn't be mapping mine for better economy...
their logic to this is that the car will reach speeds quicker so less acceleration time
How does that work? Quicker acceleration = more fuel for a shorter time = the same as less fuel for longer.
However more torque at lower revs might improve fuel economy, depending on the engine I suppose and how the original map is set up.
I think the only sensible way to increase efficiency by a remap is to change ignition timing, isn't it? This could increase emissions though and also give you less margin for using poorer fuel.
I think a lot of remaps change the emissions/fuel burning that a lot of EU regulations are based around, at least that's what I was told.. Not enough to fail MOTs but if its a new car you've no need to MoT it for 3 years anyhoos.
Put some better tyres on it and throw away the back seats?
Improving engine efficiency through air flow, ignition and lubrication - otherwise it's like going for a ride with a cold, whilst hungry, on a rusty bike. Car will feel more responsive with a feel of progress and better economy. This would be the better route for the OP.
Mapping works more noticeably on turbo engines, otherwise it's just playing with air/fuel mix. A lot of manufacturers tend to assume a lower fuel quality than we have in the UK, this is where gains can be made too. Worth knowing a mapper that knows when to stop, the engine may be good for 250, but that is pointless if the gearbox won't take more than 200.
My Focus ST has the Mountune upgrades done. All under the Ford banner, all TuV approved, no difference to insurance costs, keeps the warranty ( although now expired). It doesnt make any difference to fuel consumption and the difference is huge. I dont think it would be authorised from Ford if it didnt make emmisions to guidelines from the EU. With other mods on top I should be about 290 bhp, which is fine for a small hatchback car. Its a bit more than the 223bhp from new.
How does one improve airflow simply on a production car? Are you talking about air filters? Can improvements in mpg really be made there?
I had my TD5 Defender 90 remapped. It upped the horsepower to 150hp ish from 122hp but made it so much more driveable. Fuel wise it was around the same. 26 to 30mpg. So no improvement!
Air filter.... I had an bad experience with one of these. The oiled filter deposited the oil (from the filter - strange that!) onto the MAF sensor over a period of time. Luckily I figured it out quite quickly, cleaned the MAF sensor and put the OEM filter back in.
A proper service - oil, plugs, filters and HT leads - will make restore lost power. Take a look at your driving style as mpg improvements can be made with some very simple / easy changes. Google will help you find advice.
"I had my TD5 Defender 90 remapped. It upped the horsepower to 150hp ish from 122hp but made it so much more driveable. Fuel wise it was around the same. 26 to 30mpg. So no improvement! "
that map removes the huge dead spot the 5 pots prone to though.
you can do some amazing things with those engines for what they are. far better than the [s]puma[/s] transit engine thats replaced it.
I could write you a short book on this subject (a real interest of mine,I've mapped a few engines including my own from scratch) but I will simply say for a 1.6 petrol n/a you won't notice a difference in power or economy worth that price. save your cash. there is plenty that can be achieved but it is almost impossible for an end user to discern the difference in economy or power without falling foul of complicating factors like the placebo effect.
And just to be pedantic, a service won't give you any gains, it just cuts a few losses.
You can marginally improve some modern engines breathing and efficiency, but not while keeping legal items like cats, or original filtration. Some cars are crippled purposefully, but returning them to their full capacity won't be easy or cheap generally if they are n/a. plenty of folk will tell you their mods help airflow etc but very few IME have fluid dynamics knowledge and understanding of the resonant tuning used by OEMs.
Yes air filters help, as part of the Stage 1's on the SMART's the air filters were changed and also a larger hole cut into the filter housing allowing more air down the pipe..
How does that work? Quicker acceleration = more fuel for a shorter time = the same as less fuel for longer.
Like I said, thats what some tuners try and feed you. I'm not sure how it works either. Which is why I fettle push bikes and not car engines...
[i]Worth it[/i] is complicated... I got my 2.2 diesel done, after a couple of minor tuning mods, and the end result was just under 30bhp. Now personally I'm not that bothered about that, you just get used to power in no time anyway unless it's bonkers, I was taking it for granted in no time. But drivability improved a lot, it's a much nicer engine now for just everyday driving about, pulls cleaner from low down and has nicer response all over.
Economy, mmm. Theoretical economy improved, my test drives showed that fairly well, but real world economy is still controlled by the foot not the ECU so it's ended up being more or less the same. But if I was driving for economy, it'd be more economic 😉
Personally, I like driving and I like driving nice feeling cars more than lumpen feeling cars so even if it hadn't unleashed a single horsie I'd still probably be happy. But it's hard to put a value on intangibles like "it feels nice"
It can be counterproductive too... I had my bike in for a dyno run to check my DIY jetting, and another rider was in with a modified GSXR. He was raising hell- "You've taken away all the top end, it's miles slower". When they compared the dyno curves, actually they'd added a few bhp on top, but mostly what they'd done was remove a massive flat spot in the midrange.
Unfortunately, what the owner liked was the huge pick-up you got when driving out of the flatspot into the peak power, so by removing the flatspot, they removed the contrast and even though it was stronger everywhere, it no longer felt strong.
But it's hard to put a value on intangibles like "it feels nice"
It sounds like you are experiencing increased torque at lower revs, tbh.
molgrips - MemberIt sounds like you are experiencing increased torque at lower revs, tbh.
Oh yeah, that's most of the change- the engine's tuned soft at the bottom end, to make it easier for dobbers to drive it without wheelspin, and according to Internet Facts there's emissions restrictions too... the remap removed all of that. But it's also generally more responsive and direct, which is what translates into "feeling nice" when bombing around.
TBH it's similiar to my motorbike, mostly it's not really tuning, it's un-de-tuning.
Am I missing something? How will increasing the power by 10bhp lower the MPG? Surely it'd make it less fuel efficient or is the remap about making the engine more efficient and the increase in power is a side effect?
Err.... a lower mpg *is* less fuel efficient. You travel fewer miles per gallon of fuel.
[i]I got my 2.2 diesel done, after a couple of minor tuning mods, and the end result was just under 30bhp[/i]
Was that a Honda by any chance? I think the blurb I read for my 2.2 diesel Honda was +20bhp but torque was where the real gains were made (unsurprisingly). I think they claimed the same as a Ferrari 360.
honda use an isuzu engine no ?
they can go from 115-150 with a remap alone iirc - they tuned them down for lower in the range models rather than changing engine.
Remapping can make a huge difference to the driveability/performance of the car, here a dyno chart for my Sabb 9-5. This is the before and after the ecu was remapped.
Injectors have a fine spray pattern that tends to be lost over time as they clog up which prevents the fuel being combusted as efficiantly which looses you power and ups your emissions. When the Top Gear Renault Espace was serviced and got back it's power to factory levels, they replaced the injectors. Replacing them is expensive, so the next best thing is to give them a clean. There are different schools of though on cleaning them and some people take the injectors out and put them in sonic baths, but I've just used injector cleaner from time to time. The high street brands don't seem to do a lot, but I have found the Forte stuff to be very good after my mechanic suggested it. (try an ebay search for Forte injector cleaner or Forte gas treatment for their lighter stuff). I have an 16 yr old golf that gets it once a year and it runs perfectly and an A4 2.0 TFSI (the same engine as the Golf GTI) which was a little rough pulling at 1500 rpm when I first got it and after the cleaner, it was perfect. Also a mate at work with a little looked after 1.6 Focus gave it a try and found that as well as making the engine smoother, he now gets an extra 40 miles from a tank.
And no, I don't work for them, I'm just impressed with the results.
[i]they can go from 115-150 with a remap alone iirc [/i]
Factory power for mine ( '05 2.2 ) was 150. The Honda forums talk about it going up to 190 in some cases.
See if this works as the picture above didn't.
[url= http://picasaweb.google.com/m/photo?uname=101291622153942908532&id=5829237686955746482&aid=5829238351098686161&start=1 ]Dyno chart[/url]
anything turbo is worth a remap
anything na keep the money in your pockeet
samuri - what milage did those engines go to ?
my mate did something similar with a skoda fabia VRS bought new and all done via the skoda dealer to about 190 bhp.
14 months later ... new turbo please ....
managed to get it on warrenty though as the dealer did all the mods- went back to original power as he said it became pretty undrivable with all the torque meaning quick take offs would result in lunching of the front tires.
The remap is only as good as the mapper, and the condition of the engine.
Stay away from the cheap "£150 cash and you'll get 1 million hp gain".
Perhaps cleaning your injectors would help first?
This person gained about 8hp...
http://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=279709&start=15
looks like placebo effect at its finest.
i see no dyno data there only "i reckon i got about 8-10 bhp" .... i washed my car last week , i think i got about 4bhp from that.
He has the LiquidTT gauge, which reads (and logs) data from the ECU.
It's not [i]all[/i] guess work 😉
the gauge can only make an edducated guess nothing more its a good comparison, however gaining 8bhp from a turbo engine could have been done with a 2 deg drop in AIT far to many variables to measure such a small gain
Trail-rat, I'm surprised that a Skoda dealer approved a map that brutal on a vrs engine. It's generally accepted that 170-180 is as high as you should go with that engine before going to new components, and even 180 remaps often ruin the clutch fairly quickly.
The Ibiza Cupra will go to just over 200bhp as it has bigger injectors, turbo & larger front mounted intercooler. I've got the Ibiza Sport, same engine as the vrs and considered doing this for ages. Decided not to in the end as didn't want the increased insurance & tyre costs as well as being sceptical about the longevity of the engine after the change.
I think some Seat dealers were offering a gentle Revo map on the 130 1.9 that didn't invalidate the warranty. I think that only took it to 155bhp.
I should have stumped up the extra for the Cupra when I bought the thing!
stumpy - said dealers no longer a skoda dealer nor is he in business anymore.
this was back when no data points were availible for it as the model had just been released.
My mate just read about it on the net and said - i want that done and they did it.
was alot of arguements afterwards about who was liable.
Yikes! That's quite a risk! I got mine on 06 (03 plate) and tuning them was fairly well established. I think Jabba, p-torque & custom code were the ones always mentioned on seatcupra.net
Apparently the Revo ones were quite on/off and generally ruined clutches.
I came very close a few times to joining a group buy on the seatcupra forum, but always decided I didn't wanna take the risk & expense.
Looked at Cupras recently but next car will be an estate...
Honda had a spate of issues years ago with the Civic diesels. They could be so easily chipped to increase touqe (yes the Ferrari claim is sound) that the gearboxes were shredding. People would change the ECU's abck over for a warranty replacement and it was costing ££££ - the ECU was then locked out in newer models.
samuri - MemberWas that a Honda by any chance? I think the blurb I read for my 2.2 diesel Honda was +20bhp
Mondeo 155 in my case.
Don't see the pic of dyno chart above. Might be blocked so will try at home.
I wouldn't believe any website that puts example dyno charts up that aren't an obvious straight printout of the machine. Very easy to spot a fake though. And I've seen fakes. Or at least ones that redefine the definition of HP for commercial gain.
andytherocketeer - Member
Don't see the pic of dyno chart above. Might be blocked so will try at home.I wouldn't believe any website that puts example dyno charts up that aren't an obvious straight printout of the machine. Very easy to spot a fake though. And I've seen fakes. Or at least ones that redefine the definition of HP for commercial gain.
I was trying (badly) to link to a screen shot jpg for my actual car. I'll also try again at home when not hindered by a work firewall.
ah yeah. it trys to link to an html not jpg file.
edit: oh missed the other link, but that's a microscopic jpg.
Here you go.
This isn't the actuall dyno graph I can't find it. This is from a peice of software call T7 Suite used for mapping Saab's own Trionic engine management system. This is the projected standard and new power curves with the modified map loaded in my car.
The software has been developed from Saabs own developement software I believe and the projections a remarkably accurate from the acutal dyno runs I've seen.
There is quite a big Saab tuning scene here and in Europe, I'd need to start with hardware mods to go on beyond here. But the bottom end is good for over 500BHP and the are serveral cars her in the UK runnning this sort of power very reliably. One car I know was running 546 BHP and close to 600Nm for over 50000 miles before it suffered a block failure - the block had 187000 miles on it at the time.
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i have had a mk3 astra with a b205 in it and i used to map it with t5 suit awesome how cheap and what can be done with them.
sbd16v - Memberi have had a mk3 astra with a b205 in it and i used to map it with t5 suit awesome how cheap and what can be done with them.
There's quite a lot of people fitting that engine or its bigger brother into Astra's
tbh i bought it done cheap, but it developed an oil problem (i expect due to lack of service by previous owner) and i killed it after a few months, that was when i decided that i sold my other astra(450+bhp one) because i had had, enought of cars so just broke it and got more into mtbing instead lol
legend - MemberI'd put that £150 on a bet saying the remap doesn't get you 10hp
This man speaks sense.