Car crash - who’s at fault question…

OK, to be reasonable. There's a lot of conjecture now in this thread, so joining in the whatiffery and bringing a bit of logic to it. Because i don't think it's maybe as clear as OP described.

In particular - car slows to allow him out and he goes. Bus driver for whatever reason - for these purposes it doesn't matter - overtakes the slowing / stationary car.

OP's car - "both my doors are knackered so it’s not going to be cheap" - indicates a/ he's been hit amidships; b/ it's pretty slow speed - buses carry a lot of kinetic energy and if he'd been hit at speed I think it's beyond both doors being knackered, it's major damage / write-off / KSI territory.

So - either bus has moved round the car at slow speed and OP has pulled out in front. Or, bus was haring along, has jammed on brakes and taken avoiding action and just failed to stop. In which case why didn't OP say this, and once you see that unfolding, why doesn't the OP hit the accelerator and try to get out of the way. To still be T-boned in that situation as opposed to a rear quarter clip, or a near miss and a new accessorizing stripe on your upholstery - a bus slowing from speed, avoiding the other car and dropping finally to 'damage on both doors' sort of speed would take quite a distance and therefore time. Did OP just sit and wait for it to happen?

What's really happened?

If it's genuinely as the OP says then I still think the bus has some liability if not all. But - it doesn't smell quite right really.

[edit - also just rechecking OP - neither of us were 'seriously hurt'. Any injury and police should have been called, and they could then sort out there and then]

What estimated speed was everybody traveling at before the incident?

Was it fast enough to take off on a treadmill?

What do you do when you come across a stationery vehicle with no obvious cause for it to be stopped (traffic lights, pedestrian etc) ? Do you wait until they move off, maybe in a minute, maybe tomorrow or next year or do you pass it?

Id come to a stop or slow down sufficiently to see if i can see the reason for stopping and make an assessment on risk before pulling into (possibly) oncoming traffic, small child, family of ducks, car pulling out of a drive maybe.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the bus driver did all of this and pulled around the stopped car but whilst he was passing he was staring into the stationary car's drivers window and performing the international 'poor driving' hand signal to indicate his displeasure at having to pull out, inadvertently taking his eyes off the road.

Facebook, dropping someone off, picking them up, finding the pack of cigs they dropped on the floor, parking etc.

Keep going - I'm sure you can think of plenty of reasons that might also might make it not safe to pass.  I certainly can. In fact, we're discussing one right now.

Id come to a stop or slow down sufficiently to see if i can see the reason for stopping and make an assessment on risk before pulling into (possibly) oncoming traffic, small child, family of ducks, car pulling out of a drive maybe.

And if you did that in a bus, most likely, you'd only be going quick enough to cause some relatively superficial damage to the bus and a car you t bone a few moments later

From the OP, the car stopped

<div id="post-12718314" class="bbp-reply-header d-flex justify-content-between w-100">
<div class="bbp-reply-author d-flex align-items-center flex-wrap"><span class="bbp-author-name">ibnchris</span>
<div class="bbp-author-role">
<div class="">Full Member</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<div class="p-0 loop-item-0 user-id-11226 bbp-parent-forum-180317 bbp-parent-topic-180317 bbp-reply-position-1 odd post-12718314 topic type-topic status-publish hentry">
<div class="bbp-reply-content">

Was trying to pull out of my house today and the car to my left slowed down, stopped and flashed to let me out.

</div>
</div>

I’m sure you can think of plenty of reasons that might also might make it not safe to pass.

But that's sort of the point. A stopped car can mean a number of things, that it's not safe to pass is on a long long list, it might make half of even more of the list but you look, assess and progress (as safely as possible), you don't just sit forever waiting for the car to move because potentially it might be unsafe despite the lack of evidence.

I'm not saying I'd have made the same or a different decision, what I am saying is its a decision.

Do you wait until they move off, maybe in a minute, maybe tomorrow or next year or do you pass it?

This has happened many times to me so it's not hypothetical.  I stop, first, then I look around - if I cannot see then I edge out and check what's going on.  There's always a reason - like I say, drivers are usually on the road to get somewhere, they tend not to just slow down and stop for the hell of it in the middle of the road.

However, the number of people who assume that they have is staggering. The number of times I slow down, look, see the situation, and then some absolute ****er assumes we're all just stopped to have a bit of a break, swings past both of us and then has to do an emergency stop to avoid whatever is happening is huge compared to how obviously stupid it is.  Sometimes they give an angry beep and a hand signal, just before they shit themselves when they belatedly realise what's going on.

So he saw the car had stopped but not the big bus behind it that was still moving?

[Saw the car flash

Looked right - saw there was nothing coming

Pulled out ...... into the path of the bus as, rather than actually check, an assumption was made that nothing was coming]

they tend not to just slow down and stop for the hell of it in the middle of the road.

Have you never seen an owner/driver delivery person in an urban area?

assess and progress (as safely as possible)

Yes, you proceed safely and SLOWLY so that you can avoid whatever might be happening.  This is precisely what the bus didn't apparently do.

hmmmm

A driving question, hazy info, sure to divide opinion...

OP posts once and vanishes...

Controversy rages, views become entrenched,  armed camps form...

I'd give it a 10/10

(I don't actually think it's a troll, but if I was going to troll this would be a perfect topic. I have a view too, coloured by the occasion when a driver flashed to let someone out, neither having seen me on my bike heading downhill at speed too late to brake and did an over the bonnet.)

Yes, you proceed safely and SLOWLY so that you can avoid whatever might be happening

Which the bus driver did - if he was going faster there would be much more significant damage.  You can't avoid everything.

This has happened many times to me

In fairness if you can find anyone who has ever driven that it hasn't happened to I'd be amazed.

However, the number of people who assume that they have is staggering. The number of times I slow down, look, see the situation, and then some absolute **** assumes we’re all just stopped to have a bit of a break, swings past both of us and then has to do an emergency stop to avoid whatever is happening is huge compared to how obviously stupid it is. Sometimes they give an angry beep and a hand signal, just before they shit themselves when they belatedly realise what’s going on.

In this case that seems to be the OP

Yes, you proceed safely and SLOWLY so that you can avoid whatever might be happening. This is precisely what the bus didn’t apparently do.

Only it's a bus, how long do you think the braking distance for a swerving bus at ?30mph? is vs a single car length? (the op only mentions one stopped car)

If the bus wasn't doing as above and going slowly do you think it would have been a very minor rta with no police attendance?

The op writes it all in a way which is intended to sound like its the bus driver's fault but the "maths" doesn't work.

Bus was going slowly when it hit, but how fast was it going before the driver hit the brakes?  A bus driver slowly manoevring around an obstruction ought to be watching the road.  The OP clearly was watching the road because he saw the other car slow, stop and flash him.

My money's on the bus driver not thinking it through and making a bad decision.

Only it’s a bus, how long do you think the braking distance for a swerving bus at ?30mph? is vs a single car length?

That's the point - the bus should not have been doing 30mph around a car stopped in the middle of the road!

This thread exposes a paradox of online communication.  If you started a thread suggesting that people were generally good drivers, you'd get laughed at - most people think most drivers are terrible. But given a chance to put the boot into a poster, other drivers are suddenly all perfectly rational and the chances are it's the poster on the thread that's the bad one.

The OP clearly was watching the road because he saw the other car slow, stop and flash him.

But not a bus...

My money is on the op only watching the one car, not the road then ragging out of his drive because he lives on a busy road and pulling out is a royal pita.

But not a bus…

We don't know what the visibility was like.  It could have been a blind bend which is another reason the bus should have taken extreme care.  Of course, this raises the question of how do you pull out of your driveway when its on a blind bend?  Arguably when another driver has stopped to let you out could be the safest time to do it.

I'm not saying the bus driver is the only one at fault here, but they're the professional trained driver with 50 people on board not wearing seatbelts and in control of a 30t vehicle or whatever it is which can do the most damage, so they should be taking the most care.

I’m not saying the bus driver is the only one at fault here, but they’re the professional trained driver with 50 people on board not wearing seatbelts and in control of a 30t vehicle or whatever it is which can do the most damage, so they should be taking the most care.

Absolutely, I think where we differ is I think they likely were and the OP wasn't.

It's all based on bias of course but based on my own experience I've:

Never been hit by a bus.

I've never seen one swerve round a car slowing in a controlled manner.

And I've never (knowingly obviously) not seen a bus

I have however more times than I can count been cut up by morons pulling out into tiny gaps in busy traffic because its easier to assume everyone else will brake than to wait fir a decent sized gap.

I've seen that go wrong a few times.

the bus that was behind them swerved to avoid rear ending the car that stopped for me

So the OP saw the bus traveling so fast that it had to swerve to avoid the car, yet the OP decided to carry on with his maneuvere? Something doesn't add up.

But given a chance to put the boot into a poster,

No one is doing this.  We are discussing who we think is at fault

As ever there are two different aspects - the legal responsibility which IMO is with the OP and the moral ( for want of a better word) which rests with all 3 participants

the reason the courteous car stopped is irrelevant - could be to politely let someone pull our, could have stalled, broken down, run out of fuel, the driver could have been taken ill,  could have stopped because theres an obstruction, hazard, child, landmine, oils slick, baby ducklings in the road  - if they just stopped in their lane, even if its a bad idea to do so a vehicle behind has no reason to know why they stopped and should just stop too until its clear why, and that its safe to move on.  So the bus behind should also have just stopped, not driven around the stopped vehicle, because they don't know why the car stopped - as it turned out there was a hazard ahead that they drove into.

If they decided to drive around the car rather  than at least initially stop they're int the wrong,- they made a bad decision - doesnt matter that other people might have been making bad decisions - theyre the one that made a bad decision that resulted in them losing control.  If they couldn't stop and therefore could only swerve then they were already out of control before the car ahead even stopped. Its true that buses have unbelted passengers so can't stop as abruptly as other vehicle.... that's why you drive them like a bus, under a licence achieved through additional training, at speeds and with space and time and anticipation that prevents having to make moves that would injure passengers

We shouldn't overlook the potential mitigating factor that there was a bomb on the bus.

OP's Bus Driver yesterday...

I’m surprised (or maybe not) at the number of people suggesting the op lie on their statement and omit the flashing lights to sound less at fault though, seriously?

TBH, if the OP did lie and not mention the car driver flashing their lights, then it isn't exactly going to look any better...

'I looked left and right. The right carriageway was clear but to the left there was a car stopped in the road, being followed by a bus so I proceeded to pull out of my drive'

So the OP saw the bus traveling so fast that it had to swerve to avoid the car, yet the OP decided to carry on with his maneuvere? Something doesn’t add up.

This.

Bus driver sees car stopping in front and a clear way to overtake, does so, only for the OP to pull out in front of him/her.

OP either hasn't seen the bus or has assumed it would stop behind the car

He was a young lad and very shook up.

Young is irrelevant, shook up because some tit pulled out in front of him at less than the stopping distance of a bus!

Bus was going slowly when it hit, but how fast was it going before the driver hit the brakes?  A bus driver slowly manoevring around an obstruction ought to be watching the road.

I agree, watching the road

I think scannning every drive way for cars pulling out isn't the priority, they are giving way to you

That’s the point – the bus should not have been doing 30mph around a car stopped in the middle of the road!

But YOU don't know those things - it's what you've decided has happened.

A bus driver slowly manoevring around an obstruction ought to be watching the road.

No he shouldn't..... he could be looking in his nearside wing mirror to check that he's giving enough room to clear the obstacle he's passing!

If you had driven a long vehicle you would know that.

So the bus behind should also have just stopped, not driven around the stopped vehicle, because they don’t know why the car stopped – as it turned out there was a hazard ahead that they drove into.

I'd say the hazard drove into the road, which it had no right to do, amd therefore the bus hit it

So the bus behind should also have just stopped, not driven around the stopped vehicle, because they don’t know why the car stopped – as it turned out there was a hazard ahead that they drove into.

I’d say the hazard drove into the road, which it had no right to do, amd therefore the bus hit it

I so agree with this - the bus driver saw the road ahead to be clear and made a judgement that it was safe to pass the stationary car, and was passing it when the OP sailed out of their drive because it was clearly safe to do so because the driver of the car had flashed their lights. We can argue that the driver of the bus should have seen an emerging hazard, but more so the OP should have seen an emerging hazard – and they were the one pulling out onto a road so they should have been 100% sure it was safe to do so.

I’ve never seen one swerve round a car slowing in a controlled manner.

I have seen plenty of terrible and too-fast driving from bus drivers though so it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

No he shouldn’t….. he could be looking in his nearside wing mirror to check that he’s giving enough room to clear the obstacle he’s passing!

What?  You're saying a bus doesn't need to look where it's going?  That's absurd. I've driven long vehicles, and when manoeuvring around something you need to check your mirrors AND what's in front of you (I can't believe this needs pointing out).  If you can't do both then you're not fit to drive, quite clearly.

when manoeuvring around something you need to check your mirrors AND what’s in front of you

Oh, so you do need to look in your mirrors then?  You didn't mention that.
I presume you have an eye on the side of your head that enables you to look in the mirror and at the road simultaneously because it's a wide vehicle, it's impossible to do without turning your head.

You know exactly what I'm saying.... the bus driver could easily have been looking in the mirror when the OP pulled out in front of him - which I think we can all agree is what he did otherwise the accident wouldn't have occurred.

I so agree with this – the bus driver saw the road ahead to be clear and made a judgement that it was safe to pass the stationary car, and was passing it when the OP sailed out of their drive because it was clearly safe to do so because the driver of the car had flashed their lights.

TBH this post is really 2 different questions... who is to blame as in whose actions contributed towards the crash (everyone, a little bit!) and who is actually "at fault" from an insurance POV (OP, I think unfortunately!)

I’ve had people pull out on me because someone stopped & flashed them, but I (heading towards them from the opposite direction) didn’t stop (obviously I <em class="bbcode-em">did then stop before impact!) It’s very much IME that (some) drivers interperet the “flash” signal as “pull out now without actually checking for yourself that it’s safe because I have a forcefield now as I’ve been flashed”

Yup - I had that just this week - I was heading towards a roundabout and the driver coming in the opposite direction (ie, having just exited the roundabout) slowed and flashed his lights to let out a driver who was about to reverse off his drive. Immediately I saw this as a damn stupid sequence of events (ie, daft to stop immediately after turning off a roundabout and dafter still to be reversing off a drive onto a busy road right next to a roundabout). I attempted to keep moving, expecting the idiot on their drive to stop what they were about to do and have the stopped driver realise he was sat in the middle of the road holding up traffic for no reason. But no - the idiot on his drive just sailed out. Obviously I stopped at this point and there was no accident but I was mildly frustrated by it - it was so unnecessary.

What caused, and who's at fault are two different things.

"You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road."

So on a junction you must give way to all traffic, which includes anyone overtaking. Obviously it's a driveway but I suspect that would make the need to give way even more important as main road traffic would be less aware of driveways than junctions - rarely road signage for driveways. So I think OP will be found partly if not fully responsible. All the bus driver needs to say is he was passing a stationary vehicle. 50/50 would be a good result for OP.

who’s at fault?

Yours. You pulled out in front of a bus.

the bus driver could easily have been looking in the mirror when the OP pulled out in front of him

Yeah but you look in both, rapidly, and move appropriately slowly.  You check that your trajectory will clear the obstacle (stopped car in this case) and keep checking the way in front is clear.  The point is you have to be going slowly enough for this to work.

Flasher (who scarpered 😂) also breaks Rule #1 by unnecessarily impeding the progress of a bus

You ,although the dimwit who flashed encouraged you to be another dozy so and so.

A) we all know flashing is much the same as the horn ( Cue Frankie Howerd sounds) It says "I'm here" . End.

B) Surely no one in their right mind gives away their right of way? It causes confusion as you have proved. Never do it. If we all stick to the rules we can't have "accidents".

C) The bus didn't stop. You should always be able to stop. No excuses, drive slower.

Seems I’ve caused quite a stir on here - thanks for your views.

to be clear I was not obstructing the highway. I was visibly trying to come out as my car was on the dropped curb.

No traffic from the right. So when the car to the left stopped (which tbh I was not expecting because nobody ever stops to let me out) I pulled out. Then a bus came into the side of me. Because it couldn’t stop.

the car didn’t exactly slam on the brakes I suspect the bus was not paying attention. No passengers btw.

if my fault, so be it. I’m insured.

What we all want to know is how did you not see the bus?

Because it was far away?

I did. It was behind the car. It should have stopped. But came round the side at the same time as I pulled out. Pretty straightforward really. Do you look at the full line of traffic before pulling out. Or the one that’s stopped…

I will be sure to let you all know once the insurers have worked it out 👍

Hard luck Chris. It's the kind of thing I could well envisage doing myself.

Chris id have watched the vehicle behind in the scenario you describe, had plenty of scenarios where I've seen people overtake a slow or stationary vehicle allowing someone to pull out.

It should have stopped

that says it all - you assumed the vehicle should have stopped then pulled out of your drive.

you assume wrong..

I’d say the bus driver - if he had to swerve into the opposite lane to avoid rear ending the flasher. He wasn’t paying due attention.

Again, NEVER take instruction from someone flashing.  Just ignore them until they move on.  Similar scenario close to where I live where a car flashed out a driver from a junction so driver pulled out right in front of bus that was coming the other way but potentially assumed was safe to pull out as driver had flashed them.  That driver sadly won't be posting on any forums asking whose fault it was...

Agree. As my instructor said (OK, was about indicators but..... what can you tell from their flashing headlights? Answer - that the bulbs aren't blown)

However to those that seem to say they never let anyone out - really? I mean, I meet plenty of drivers like you out there so i guess that you mean it but a bit of give and take makes the roads a lot nicer. If no-one let me out of my side road in the morning I could literally be there for 10 minutes.

I still can't get something to add up in the OP's description.

The bus didn't stop and came round the flasher and hit the OP amidships, but with no significant force. Buses do a lot of damage, they are very heavy. OP says no significant injury but both doors damaged.

Buses also are not highly manoeuverable unless at very low speed, they can't suddenly pop out from behind a car so must have started to overtake a couple of car lengths further back at least?

This explanation of pulled out, didn't realise he was going to overtake and yet was still only 2-3m into the road - I can't quite get my head around.

In which time OP has managed to get about 2-3m into the road (assuming he doesn't drive a stretch limo, that's about how far you need to go to be exposing your two side doors)

So either it was going quite quickly but should have been obviously overtaking, or slowly and yet the OP still pulled out?

I’d say the bus driver – if he had to swerve into the opposite lane to avoid rear ending the flasher.

Or was he simply overtaking, using a bit of the road which was clear (and on which he had priority) before the OP pulled across him?

I’d say the bus driver – if he had to swerve into the opposite lane to avoid rear ending the flasher.

Or was he simply overtaking, using a bit of the road which was clear (and on which he had priority) before the OP pulled across him

Overtaking a car despite there being a car waiting to pull out of a driveway on the other side of the road? Not the best decision. Overtaking on a road with exits along the other side, never mind an actual car sitting there in an exit waiting to pull out, is not likely to end well.

I'm going with, it was an unfortunate series of snap human decisions that we all make from time to time in the pressure of driving on busy roads, and in this instance, there was a perfect storm of slight errors of judgment.

It happens. See what the insurance say. Glad you're OK op 👍

Would you really call passing a stationary vehicle over taking?

If it is I have to over take stationary cars every day whilst surrounded by drive ways. One is on a difficult corner. It needs my full attention to see if anyone is coming the other way on the road. But apparently I should actually be starting at all the drives in case some one pulls out.

OK

i can see the counter argument. The faster the bus is  travelling the more it shifts the blame to the bus. If we are talking about a line of traffic to the left then I would be surprised by a vehicle passing one that has stopped to let me out

But i still think the dominant law is traffic in the road has right off way

Would you really call passing a stationary vehicle over taking?

If it is I have to over take stationary cars every day whilst surrounded by drive ways. One is on a difficult corner. It needs my full attention to see if anyone is coming the other way on the road. But apparently I should actually be starting at all the drives in case some one pulls out.

I don't think what you call it matters, but whenever you are going to go around a vehicle, moving or otherwise, you need to be aware of any potential hazards on the opposite side, no? Could be a car waiting to exit, could be a person waiting to cross, could be a pheasant. You have to be aware of anything, and that's not always the case for humans making quick decisions under pressure.

I wouldn't 'stare' at all the drives no of course not, but they would need to be part of your general awareness when going over into the oncoming lane surely? It's often a subconscious thing that's just a part of driving.

That's the thing. There is an awful lot of things going on in your typical driving scenario. Arguably so much that it tests our ability as humans to process it all and make the correct decisions all of the time in a snap. I suppose that's why some people think self-driving cars are a good thing.

What would a self-driving bus have done? I imagine it might not have swung out around the slowing/stopped car into the oncoming lane, which sounds like it was punctuated with exits. It probably would have waited behind. Don't know.

Humans are always making errors of judgement. We're really good at it.

If OP was already into the opposite lane when the bus crossed into it, the bus driver is the one changing lanes unsafely. If OP entered the lane when the bus was already beginning (or committed to) the overtake, he's the one doing it unsafely. As the bus managed to knacker both his doors, he's pretty well out when it reaches him.

It's poor hazard awareness on both sides, really. And if the 'letting out' car has pulled to a halt out of nowhere instead of proceeding, they deserve some blame as well (although they won't get any).

Again, NEVER take instruction from someone flashing. Just ignore them until they move on. Similar scenario close to where I live where a car flashed out a driver from a junction so driver pulled out right in front of bus that was coming the other way but potentially assumed was safe to pull out as driver had flashed them.

Agree you can't blindly trust a car that flashes it lights but the situation you describe is nothing like the situation the OP describes. The situation you describe is the driver assuming the flashing car meant the road was entirely clear in both directions and safe for them to pull out without doing their own checks. The OP has stated there was no traffic coming from the right and from the left the car at the front of traffic had stopped to let them out, the accident was caused by the bus behind that car not leaving sufficient room to slow down safely or not paying enough attention, they therefore had to take avoiding action and in doing so caused the collision.

What if that car had slowed down for some wildlife in the carriageway and the bus rear ended them? Or swerved into the opposite carriageway into an oncoming car? Whilst I have sympathy for the bus driver as most of us will at times drive too close to cars in front as we get conditioned that it won't suddenly slow down it's still your fault if that mistaken belief leads to you causing an accident.

the accident was caused by the bus behind that car not leaving sufficient room to slow down safely or not paying enough attention, they therefore had to take avoiding action and in doing so caused the collision.

The only evidence that this is the case comes from the OP.

If he saw the bus going too fast/close to the car in front and having to take avoiding action, why did he then pull out in front of it?!

Frankly I'm not at all convinced that the events are as described.

At the end of the day the accident was caused by one vehicle pulling out onto the road in front of another vehicle.

The only evidence that this is the case comes from the OP.

Well the only evidence we have that there was a collision at all is from the OP. If we are just going to say he's making stuff up perhaps we should blame Colonel Mustard with the candlestick.

I do agree his description seems a bit fishy really.

theotherjonv wrote what I've been thinking through most of this thread. An interesting question might be, what speeds were everyone doing?

The flasher allegedly stopped rather than slowed down. Who does this? Easing off to give someone space, sure. But actually stopping dead in traffic?

The OP was t-boned by a bus, yet wasn't turned into flatpack furniture. The bus must either have been passing pretty slowly - which is likely if the driver was responding to the car in front slowing and stopping - or wasn't paying attention and managed to scrub a lot of speed in a bus. Are panic-swerving buses known for their emergency stop capabilities?

The only explanation that makes any sense to me is that the flasher stopped; the bus driver decided to drive around the stationary car (why, when the car wasn't parked?); and the waiting OP looked left and saw the flash, looked right and saw that it was clear, then hoofed it out of his driveway without looking left again where he would otherwise have observed the bus which was by then practically on top of him.

So we have a stationary flasher, a low-speed bus, and a suddenly accelerating OP. The other two drivers were both idiots, but what caused the crash was the OP thinking "ooh, I can get out of here if I'm quick" and standing on the loud pedal without looking properly.

Here endeth the Wild Speculation entry. 😁

Hopefully the bus will have a gps linked dashcam which records speed and pictures.
Or the bus driver using his mobile immediately before the collision, hemce the swerve and not stop line astern.