[Closed] Car charging points - communal building

If its communal, who pays the bill?

It's the sensible thing to but will require a new metered 3 phase supply installing by the DNO. Who's liable for the bill will be the biggest issue.

Something to be aware of is that very few current models of electric car can charge at 22kW A/C. Yes, you can plug them into a 22kW A/C charger but most cars will only draw 7 or 11kW. Whilst that might change in the future, currently paying extra for a 22kW 3 phase charger might not be money we'll spent.
The other thing to think about is how much will a 7kW charger cost compared to a 22kW one. If 7kW is significantly cheaper, then it might be wise to spend your allotted budget on 2 or 3 x 7kW units rather than a single 22kW one. The number of electric cars is increasing, which will increase the pressure on your communal charger - people are generally prety selfish and are likely to plug their car in when they return from work - it is highly unlikely that they will come out at 11pm to kove their car so that someone else can charge their car.
More, but less powerful chargepoints will keep more people happy.

It makes more sense to me to install a communal 22kw charger (feed from the street – avoiding the ancient electrics in the building) rather than multiple flats installing a 7kw ‘domestic charger’

Do you know how much a new supply for you will be?
£5k+.And that's a low end estimate. Then you will be paying for 3ph supply standing charge.
It will take an awful long time to repay the benefits of having a new supply fitted. You'll also have the problem of who will pay the bills.

Single EV chargers taken off each flats supply would be far easier and cheaper to install, along with far less paperwork, and those who dont want it dont have to have one fitted.

Ref paying the bill - a brief google tells me most the home charger providers provide a ‘smart’ solution for communal charging - basically an account you’re then billed from.

a communal 22kw charger

but then only one person gets to charge their car at night?

Exeter CC have been putting charge points all over town, but i wouldnt want to rely on one for my regular personal charging.
seems a bit rude if one person kinda claims it as "their spot" (even if they are paying for the juice)

Wouldn't it be cheaper and more convenient to give all the residents a petrol generator?

Wouldn’t it be cheaper and more convenient to give all the residents a petrol generator?

You could go a step further and put that generator inside a vehicle.

😂

The number of electric cars is increasing, which will increase the pressure on your communal charger – people are generally prety selfish and are likely to plug their car in when they return from work – it is highly unlikely that they will come out at 11pm to kove their car so that someone else can charge their car.
More, but less powerful chargepoints will keep more people happy.

This 👆

3 phase ac charging is a bit Betamax. The Zoe’s got it but more recent fast charging cars are on dc, and will only do 7kw AC. It’s already been mentioned, but yeah, as above really.

Probably be best to have 7kw chargers in your allocated spaces but try and get the bulk of the work done at the same time to save costs?

Either full installation, or residents not yet ready could pay to 'prep' their install, i.e pay for the cable and trenching but leave it disconnected until they want a charger.

General question, do people installing their chargers think ahead and install it where it will reach two cars? Obvious place for us is near the meter but this would mean playing car Tetris before bed, so would try and install it on a less appealing spot on the corner of the house where it could potentially reach three spaces.

I can't see people wanting to go out and plug in a fast charger at 11pm or 5am even if you can park four cars around each one, and I presume (if it exists) that a fast charger that can be plugged into four cars at once and then charge one after the other without human intervention would not really offer any advantage to a 4 slow chargers.

General question, do people installing their chargers think ahead and install it where it will reach two cars?

I have to guess you don’t actually own a ev yet and this question is borne of range anxiety that will disappear once you do own an ev. Our electric car only does 100 miles and we only charge it once a week or less. Obviously, YMMV literally. If the second car was also electric I can’t see any Tetris being required other than “hey I’ll need the charger spot when I get home tonight hun”

In the communal case of the OP such simple negotiation isn’t possible so several accessible chargers seems to be the best option. That means a handful of 7kw chargers rather than one fast charger.

Does your block of flats have a separate landlord supply? If so you might be able to squeeze a 7kw supply from this if permissable and use a cloud based payment charger. I know it's only one charger but it would be a starter for 10 as a new DNO supply in the carpark/Street will cost a shed load. I'm not too sure how the connection would manifest as I think it would need to be installed into a feeder pillar with a meter and then you would install a distribution board to feed the EVC pedestals?

have to guess you don’t actually own a ev yet and this question is borne of range anxiety t

No it sounds like a question of not playing. Car Tetris just to charge a car. Ie good planning. In much the same way a drive way where cars park end to end are a complete pain in the arse.

have to guess you don’t actually own a ev yet and this question is borne of range anxiety...If the second car was also electric I can’t see any Tetris being required other than “hey I’ll need the charger spot when I get home tonight hun”

"Hey hun, your cars just finished charging, I know you have just got out the bath but come outside so we can take the cars out of the drive and put them back on in a different order". Or, I'm out on my bike and my wife isn't allowed to move my work vehicle so can't swap them over. All because the charger looks tidy on the side of the house rather than on the front 🙂

It's bad enough just playing Tetris morning and evening without doing it mid evening as well 🙂
It's feasible I'll have an electric company van within the next few years (next year if my employer wasn't buying the smallest capacity vans with no fast top up ability) which would need a full daily charge, and likely a private car that would be a daily charge if commuting and twice a week if working from home.

so we can take the cars out of the drive and put them back on in a different order”

Daft question perhaps, voltage drop etc etc, but can you not just get massive cables?

A slow charger than can do two would make a lot of sense, or even have two plugs and then do one at a time (as suggested above, i realise)

Or just put the charger in a sensible spot mitigating all of that.

My work has chargers with 2 outlets. The output drops per outlet when 2 are plugged in but with their space configuration it allows two side by side cars to sit for an 8 hour working day and get a charge.

Ideally separate supply.

Take a view on the demographic as to what models they are likely to buy.

If its all low end stuff that doesn't use the high w chargers then but chargers appropriately if they are all Tesla or similar high end EV's then buy the better chargers.

The standing charges and electricity prices at the moment will be through the roof so you may need to regularly review your tariffs.

This is likely to be Section20 expenditure level so consider that when approaching the tender format etc. This process will take 6-9 months assuming supply of the chargers is freely available.

Id echo the 22kw is probably going to be a waste of money comments.
3x7kw chargers would be better, 7kw is enough to charge most EV's over night so faster charging probably isnt going to be needed.

Mrs P has spent the last 12 months rolling out chargers to all of her offices. These are meant to be top-ups (mainly for site visitors) not your main daily charge. What's actually happening is that users are treating them as 'their' charger and don't like moving their car at lunchtime. In one example a site has 2 charging points and until recently only 2 users....but now the 3rd new guy is being frozen out. I'd suggest communal flats could end up with the same problem.
As for usage costs the provider does it all through an app which takes the money direct from each users account, obviously this needs to be set up in advance.
They installed 7kw chargers for the first phase but will be upping that to 11 for phase 2.

If you have multiple cars to charge, and given most people are going to plug in and leave it overnight, I would suggest you also look at twin chargers. They are slower with 2 cars plugged in of course but is that an issue overnight?

https://pod-point.com/products/business/twin

If/when I get a charger fitted, that is the sort of thing I would fit just for the convenience

The users leaving their cars in bays is definitely and issue. I've run a few estates and they all do it.

If possible try to find a system that charges and then switches off allowing a second user to plug in, as identified above long leads expand the range of vehicles that can use a single point.

The users leaving their cars in bays is definitely and issue. I’ve run a few estates and they all do it.

Same out in the wild. I have been observing this when I visit new areas due to being electric car curious.

On our one holiday to killin this year it was the same car in the public charger space plugged in the whole weekend.

There has to be a mechanism (other than 4 flat tires) to bill abuse like that as it makes it a pain for everyone else and hinders mass adoption.

There has to be a mechanism (other than 4 flat tires) to bill abuse like that

Apparently at [some?] Tesla chargers you pay for time in the bay not time charging (that required careful wording to distinguish charging from charging).

For the OP's question, 22kW charging also reduces the battery life more than 7kw does, so there's no point and some disadvantage in having 22kW where vehicles are left overnight.

I like the idea of making them pay for using the space without using the electricity. How much would it need to be to make it work though?

You have 2 hours after the charge has completed to unplug and move the car or it will be £10 per hour after that?

What about people unplugging but not moving? If there is a communal parking area all of the available spaces might be taken when you want to move your car.

Not my problem but something worth thinking about

After 2 hours just have the charge point start pulling charge from the car back to the grid, no refunds.

I say 2 hours, I’d give ‘em 10 mins. 😄

Sounds like a recipe for disaster as others say, a tight block of flats, probably with designated parking, it'll just go to rats in no time, especially when folk actually start getting new cars.

Last time i lived in a block of flats it was hard enough keeping folk or their friends out of other folks parking bays, imagine the carnage if there's suddenly a need for folk to charge their cars for the next day.

Again, you also state a few of the freeholders, which makes it sound like there are also leaseholders, i take it that there's a committee and they form the management company within the flats, this again adds another layer of complexity in there if it's like that.

We’ve installed over 500 commercial charge points this year and a lot are 22kw, more newer cars are now accepting 11 and 22kw charge where a year or so ago it was 7kw or DC.
A new DNO connection would cost £5k to £20k. With that you could add 4-6 dual outlet posts on load share giving 8-12 charging spaces. Cost around £3k per space so the whole job would be around £50k. They’d be setup on a back office system and you’d pay by card or app. But who would own it ? Who owns the building and the land round it ? It’s possible but a few complications to overcome.

Charges at our site now charge you more when not charging! Don't ask me how it works but if you don't move your car to a normal bay once your car is 100% it somehow fines you (I guess after a period of time like a parking meter).

Basically far too many EV's for the number of charges so they had to do something to encourage people to move their car so others can take over. Its worked well and there is now a EV Charging yammer group where they (EV drivers) self organise.

Work are trying to roll out more charges but there is some issue with supply to the site which will take ££££s to sort.

Charges at our site now charge you more when not charging! Don’t ask me how it works but if you don’t move your car to a normal bay once your car is 100% it somehow fines you (I guess after a period of time like a parking meter).

There are public chargers in Dingwall that operate on a similar basis. You get 40 mins @ 25p per kwh to charge your car. After a 15 min grace period, you get charged £1 per minute excess charge. I think it works well in a place where folk are often passing through and need a quick top up.

If its an old building the supply may just be enough for an old building,using gas for heating as opposed to electric so each flat will have a low cable rating ours has since the power company replaced all internal wiring to meters,and the external feed cables, so running electric car chargers may well overload the cable coming into the building.

Mrs P has spent the last 12 months rolling out chargers to all of her offices. These are meant to be top-ups (mainly for site visitors) not your main daily charge. What’s actually happening is that users are treating them as ‘their’ charger and don’t like moving their car at lunchtime. In one example a site has 2 charging points and until recently only 2 users….but now the 3rd new guy is being frozen out.

If you try that at any of our offices, security come find you and relieve you of your security pass until you move your car. Half day max on a charger. It helps that you need to get a card from security to enable them in the first place though, means they can track if someone is taking the piss.

public/business chargers seems simple enough really:
cost of electricity while charging, but then there is also a low rate to be plugged in and not charging/full that gets billed to the same account. ie: the rate doesnt drop to zero.
Wouldnt need to be much to make people come and unplug their cars.

On top of that,

Cars of any fuel/motion type parked in an electric bay not plugged in (electric or ICE) get a parking ticket.

I've been reading feedback from colleagues who have been given electric vans at work. Advice in the morning is to use the inbuilt timers or associated app to defrost/preheat the car in winter before unplugging to avoid losing valuable range.

This would be another reason for multiple slow chargers rather than a few fast ones.