Car brake fitters!

Ring them, say what's happened, they should be apologetic as hell, come and get the car and give you a new disc and caliper. Don't accept anything else, but don't be an arse.

This stuff happens, rarely, they need to make it good.

Sounds like the kwikly need to come get it and fit the pads correctly.

Apprentice been let loose I hope.

Fill the car full of bomberz and sausages and send it flaming through their waiting room at 40mph.

No pudding for them!

I like scruffy's idea. But I suppose moly's suggestion is the right thing to do. 

Molgrips is right -give them a chance to fix.  Don't be cross on the phone.  Just tell them what happened.  New disc and caliper required unless there is no visible damage to either which is unlikely.  They have to collect from your house.

Perhaps a courtesy car if that car is needed

This stuff happens,

only by people that are incompetent assholes and should not be running a garage. They have 1 simple job, they mess it up...what did they think the other pad in the box was for?

+1 suasages and bombers.

Public safety in the hands of idiots, its not rare, its everywhere all the time unfortunately.

only by people that are incompetent assholes and should not be running a garage

...who exist...

I'm not saying it should happen or that it's right - but it does. That wasn't meant to be an excuse for it.

Yeah , but you pay these professionals to do a, let's face it, relatively simple job .
Which in most cases is an hour's work. Unless it's a weird set up with bearing in disc .
They charge you for their time and accrued knowledge. So they let a 19 year old lad loose on your car who is interrupted every minute by his phone which he deems to be more important than the job he's paid to do. The distracted lad failed to get the job finished properly by home time but left anyway.
And this is what you end up , a bunch of ****less idiots who couldn't organise a shit show in a sewage works so someone's safely is put at risk by being handed back a car that would fail an MOT and behave very strangely in a forced stop situation.

what did they think the other pad in the box was for?

I've worked beside plenty 'technicians' who are unable to carry multiples of 4 pads to the skip, instead leaving single pads lying around.<br />And brake fitters are generally a lower level of intelligence...

Would it not be better to find out exactly what has happened rather than the kangaroo court for the 19 year old on his phone, if he is not qualified for the work or capable of knowing what he's doing should it not be up to the boss or someone checking his work

I don't think anyone would last anytime in work if they were constantly on their phone

A few years ago a bike shop in Edinburgh fitted a headset all mixed up , only noticed it 45 miles back home wondering why my campag headset was so notchy

A wee bit annoying to say the least

@onewheelgood user name checks out.

I have nothing useful to add; molgrips and redmex +1

Wow. Alot of people on here still think mechanics are stupid....

I'd call them.  They should come straight out.  Presumably you've got the wheel off?  It either needs recovery or them to correct it there and then. 

No need to go apeshit.  You'll get a better response by being nice and calm. 

You should also get the caliper checked, for damage to the face of the piston, and also as the piston isn't designed to be loaded with a sideways force and it would have been pumped almost all the way out of the caliper.  Normally the brake pad would take the sideways load.

Wow. Alot of people on here still think mechanics are stupid….<br /><br />

The fact that one of them has managed to forget to fit a brake pad would suggest that some of them are…

'looks like' they forgot to fit a pad?

Any possibility before the mechanic gets shot that this isn't one of those rare occurrences where pad and backing separate?

There some misplaced apologists on here - I would be going absolutely batshit mental if a professional 3rd party who id entrusted to work on a major safety system fails in such an easily avoided way.

Then the backing plate would still be in between the caliper piston and the disc.
The backing plates almost always have a mechanical fixing so in the event of a delamination the above situation doesn't happen

As for yoofs addicted to mobile phone use , it's endemic. Work comes second to the dopamine hit of a watts app ping on their phones

Any possibility before the mechanic gets shot that this isn’t one of those rare occurrences where pad and backing separate?

Nope. I can clearly see the piston, no trace of a pad.

Two questions:

Can you even fit one disk? (Thought you'd need a pair)

Are "we" sure there's no pad in? I didn't even know the piston could come out far enough to touch the disk

Is it possible it's like a MTB set of pads where the pad is retained by a pin, therefore if he never aligned it correctly, the pad WAS in there, but within a few mins it fell out...

 I didn’t even know the piston could come out far enough to touch the disk

I didn't either, but I'm quite glad it can because otherwise it would have been catastrophic - no braking at all and brake fluid everywhere.

There some misplaced apologists on here

Whilst I agree that it was dangerous and unprofessional and needs to be sorted ASAP, there some OTT comments on here. E.g

And brake fitters are generally a lower level of intelligence…

Imagine making that sweeping generalisation about any other occupation or group of people? I can only hope that the commentator who made that snidey, sneering insult is a renowned genius. Despite the evidence to the contrary.

Can you even fit one disk? (Thought you’d need a pair)

Ordinarily I'd concur, but presumably the other side is only a day old and unlikely to be excessively worn.

no braking at all and brake fluid

Not possible as cars have had dual circuit brakes for a very long time - but I get your meaning.

Cougar: didn't see that disks had been changed as well (they aren't always)

Before berating mechanics, let's not forget everyone, including experienced professionals, make mistakes occasionally.
I once got distracted when assembling a piece of equipment and missed fitting a trigger device (and packing the spares) simply because someone asked me a question which I stopped to answer then I missed a step in the process. That involved a german warship sailing 4 days back to port to pick up the missing bits.

It's not the mistake but how they deal with the response that should define how good they are.

Update. They've answered the phone, listened to what I've said, called me back, been very careful with what they've said so as not to admit any liability, but are sending someone to collect the car.

I am also of the view that you paid a professional to undertake work on a safety system - and they failed miserably to ensure the vehicle was safe. They certainly have not road tested it - even for a hundred metres.

I also puzzle how you can not touch brakes for a few miles from a garage! Even things like turning out from the garage would need a dab of brake...?

I also puzzle how you can not touch brakes for a few miles from a garage! Even things like turning out from the garage would need a dab of brake…?

Does seem odd. I always test the brakes as soon as I pick up the car.

If it was me i’d take photos before they collect car, then you have evidence in case of further dispute. Bearing in mind this is a major safety issue i would also think about reporting them to their head office and maybe trading standards.

been very careful with what they’ve said so as not to admit any liability

I would say liability is crystal clear here...

Update. They’ve answered the phone, listened to what I’ve said, called me back, been very careful with what they’ve said so as not to admit any liability, but are sending someone to collect the car.

That sounds like a perfectly good response so far. I too would be careful with my words in this circumstance. That's they picking it up without quibble is a good thing I'd suggest.

I hope whoever is collecting it is bringing a recovery truck.

Also, I'd make sure they listen to the noise as you move up and down the road, and video it, ideally with them in the video, even if you just record the audio from inside the car.

As an aside, how difficult is it to change disks and pads yourself?  Our garage says we probably need to do them at next service and have quoted 1000eur.  It's an XC60 for what's it's worth.  Last time I did any mechanics it was changing the clutch on my Allegro so quite a while ago...

As an aside, how difficult is it to change disks and pads yourself?

It's pretty easy, generally. I mean, they are consumables, but there are gotchas. You do need to be basically competent with car stuff and how to free up seized bolts and whatnot.

You take the wheel off, then the calliper and disc are exposed. You can undo one bolt on the caliper and it will swing up out of it's carrier, and you can then pull the old pads out. If you have an electronic handbrake, you may need a computer/dongle/device to wind them back in, otherwise you just push the pistons back in like you do on a bike - but make sure the brake fluid hasn't been 'topped up' otherwise it will now overflow at this point.

If you want to change the disc, you will need to remove the calliper carrier which is just two more bolts behind the disc. Then you need to get the disc off the hub. There is one tiny bolt holding it in place, which will strip so you need to drill that out. Then you need to beat the living daylights out of the old disc to get it off the hub, it will have corroded onto it. Then you will need to file flats on the stub of the bolt you stripped earlier so you can get the adjustable spanner on it and remove it.

Then you need to get a wire brush tool or rust remove for your angle grinder or something to remove all the rust from the hub. This is quite an important step otherwise you risk vibrating brakes.

Refitting is the reverse of removal. Oh, and don't forget to support the calliper by tying it up onto a spring or something because you must not leave it hanging on the brake hose.

As an aside, how difficult is it to change disks and pads yourself? Our garage says we probably need to do them at next service and have quoted 1000eur. It’s an XC60 for what’s it’s worth. Last time I did any mechanics it was changing the clutch on my Allegro so quite a while ago…

See the recent oil change thread for similar discussion!

Is your XC60 and older Gothenburg or the newer Gealy style?
If its the older original model then they are easy* to change - I have an XC90 and a V70.
Pistons retract with a g-clamp. You do need a 7mm socket hex key (Allen key) to get the caliper off.

ATE are the original supplier for Volvo braking components - order them from Autodoc of Germany when they have one of the +40% sales.
There are also a few Volvo trade parts counters on eBay who sell genuine discs & pads.

*Your level of competency may vary

6 hours to change rear discs and pads and only fit 3 of the pads. Wow...

I once drove the car down for it's MOT, IIRC I'd just had the caliper off to check for sticky sliders. Horrible grinding noise when I braked. Turns out the back pad wasn't refitted and was still happily sitting in the shock.

Now, I'm not a professional fitter but I obviously got distracted by something and messed up hard. Not thick either (got a degree and everyfink). Familiarity breeds complacency, I'd wager that fitter won't do that again (one way or another). I bet if people here were honest plenty of us have made similar mistakes.

Just food for thought.

Thanks both.  It's a slightly newer model with electronic handbrake so I may need something to wind back the pads.  I'll check in autodoc to see what the saving will look like.

Was going to post about electronic h/brake.

You might need dongle/software to reset the caliper position to home and/or adapt the braking system to the new pads.

Thanks both.  It’s a slightly newer model with electronic handbrake so I may need something to wind back the pads.

Quite a few cars now need the rear calipers retracting with software.  My local indy had a problem with my car a few years ago as the software he had didn't "grind*" the rear pads properly and he had to have it taken to the dealer to have this bit completed - apparently more cars have this now and his software works!

* his word not mine - he said it's to calibrate the new pads.

It's a Gealy era so outside of my knowledge range I'm afraid.

6 hours to change rear discs and pads and only fit 3 of the pads.

4 pads takes 8 hours as any fule kno' 🙂

It’s pretty easy, generally

Until something is seized or you need something digital to sort the handbrake out, dead easy....if the former happens. You are stuffed.

so what ws the outcome?

I design & develop brakes, for cars, for a living.

This...

Quite a few cars now need the rear calipers retracting with software

is NOT true.

There will be a procedure in the Owners Manual or Handbook that will put the rear calipers into a "Maintenance Mode"

When the calipers are set to this state the pistons can be wound back as normal. It also prevents the car/software on-board the car from actuating the rear calipers while you're working on them. That's a very good thing as you could crush/amputate your fingers otherwise.

Getting the calipers into "Maintenance Mode" usually involves IGN Key On/Off while holding down the Accelerator Pedal or similar.

so what ws the outcome?

Still waiting. They took the car away at 09:00. I rang 30 minutes ago and they said they were waiting for a part - maybe they broke something else. Seemed to think I'd get it back today...

they said they were waiting for a part

That's dodgy-garage-speak for 'we haven't got round to it yet' as I'm sure you know.

Getting the calipers into “Maintenance Mode” usually involves IGN Key On/Off while holding down the Accelerator Pedal or similar.

If you know the procedure for VW then a lot of people would like to know. I had VCDS to do it, but I also realised I could remove the EPB motor, and wind the screw out by hand.

Getting the calipers into “Maintenance Mode” usually involves IGN Key On/Off while holding down the Accelerator Pedal or similar.

I too am intrigued by this - having watched my garage use VIDA/DICE on the Volvo and other similar tools to do it. I have done it by 'hot wiring' the motor to a small battery....

Still waiting. They took the car away at 09:00. I rang 30 minutes ago and they said they were waiting for a part – maybe they broke something else. Seemed to think I’d get it back today…

Sound like a pretty efficient setup. Take 6 hours to do 3/4 of a job and then have no idea how long it'll take to fit the remaining pad and/or have bust/lost something else.

Seemed to think I’d get it back today…

Well. It's on its way back to me. The part they were waiting for was a caliper. He tried to suggest that a failed caliper was the cause of the missing pad, which is obvious bollocks, confirmed by the fact that they aren't charging me for it, and they are offering a biggish discount if I ever want any more work done. As if.

Well. It’s on its way back to me. The part they were waiting for was a caliper.

So the piston made contact with the disc and was damaged, I’d be wanting new discs on the rear and a full brake balance check.

Yeah, they fitted new discs and pads both sides, but...

The auto parking brake no longer works, doesn't apply when you turn the ignition off, doesn't release when you lift the clutch, and the pedal goes to the floor until you've pumped it a couple of times - needs a proper bleed. It's going back again.

Hopefully this operator/branch is far away from where I live. 

been very careful with what they’ve said so as not to admit any liability

I think that ship has sailed.

Trouble is, do you trust them to assess and be honest about whether or not the caliper has been damaged?

EDIT: Seen the update now, I'd be getting the state of the brakes checked over and sorted at another garage and sending them the bill.

It’s going back again.

If it was my car I’d be watching as the repair was carried out and get in touch with the The Motor Ombudsman service and repair dept, the garage involved have little regard for mechanical safety and I wouldn’t trust them to inflate my tyres never mind working on brakes.

Time to name and shame.

I still recall the brake caliper detaching from a mate's 3 mile old SC Bronson. Because the bolts were not tightened.  The spare brake at the other end of the bike was loose too 🙈

The auto parking brake no longer works, doesn’t apply when you turn the ignition off, doesn’t release when you lift the clutch, and the pedal goes to the floor until you’ve pumped it a couple of times – needs a proper bleed. It’s going back again.

That's sounding like someone who didn't have the right computer using brute force to get them back. Quite possibly looking at new calipers now.

... I’d wager that fitter won’t do that again (one way or another). I bet if people here were honest plenty of us have made similar mistakes.

I imagine most people would acknowledge that mistakes are easily made. Which is why you'd expect any professional outfit to have a process in place to stop them reaching the customer.

This is something that would have been glaringly obvious with a 5 second check.

i wonder if the pad was left out as the person couldn't get the piston back bacause of the parking brake :(.  But, if they have already replaced calipers and disks they are obviously fully into getting this repaired but I can't see how they could have let it out with having to pump the pedal to the floor - that's insane

On the XC60 can't see any way of putting the parking brake into maintenance mode from the user console.  I'm only seeing that info for newer vehicles but it makes good sense.  The only thing that is scary in this procedure is messing with that, the rest seems ok although i would probably need a big meaty socket wrench to release the nuts

I also realised I could remove the EPB motor, and wind the screw out by hand.

That's how I usually do it. I have had cheap replacement motors fail a couple of times now leaving me away from home with a stuck on handbrake so I always carry the tools with me to take the motor off.

That’s sounding like someone who didn’t have the right computer using brute force to get them back. Quite possibly looking at new calipers now.

And maybe the ABS modulator? I'm wondering if the correct tool also releases the valves in the modulator? I've never had a problem, but then I've the correct tools for the job.

I also realised I could remove the EPB motor, and wind the screw out by hand.

When  you wind it out by hand do you then just leave it fully wound out afterwards?  That would make sense to me.   I saw one vid where someone said to wind it in which seemed a little counterintuitive

edit: ah, i see that it winds out by turning clockwise so that does actually make sense

I have had cheap replacement motors fail a couple of times

For me, it was the £180 VW ones that failed regularly and the £40 eBay knock offs that worked fine. It was very easy to see why by looking at them. The gears in the VW one pushed against the casing which was open at one end, and it quickly split which let water in.  The knock off was closed at both ends and consequently much stronger.

When you wind it out by hand do you then just leave it fully wound out afterwards?

Yeah, I think so, it would then wind in for ages on first application to find its bite point. But it was a while ago, so don't take my word for it.

The auto parking brake no longer works, doesn’t apply when you turn the ignition off, doesn’t release when you lift the clutch, and the pedal goes to the floor until you’ve pumped it a couple of times – needs a proper bleed. It’s going back again.

Theyre demonstrating that they really don't have a clue what they're doing. I wouldn't trust them to not cause any more damage now if they have another go at putting it right , I think you need a chat with the manager about how they don't seem to know what they're doing and how can you be confident that the car is safe, and fully functional.

If you don't get good answers from the manager to give you confidence that they're going to make it right, then it's time to take it to someone competent get it properly repaired, and then claim the cost of doing that from the garage. I hope you paid by credit card, so you can dispute the charge. You may also need to go through the small claims court to get the money for getting a competent garage involved back off them.

If you don’t get good answers from the manager to give you confidence that they’re going to make it right, then it’s time to take it to someone competent get it properly repaired, and then claim the cost of doing that from the garage. I hope you paid by credit card, so you can dispute the charge. You may also need to go through the small claims court to get the money for getting a competent garage involved back off them

I would also take it somewhere else, Kwik Fit stripped a brake caliper bolt and used loctite to "repair" it on an Astra i had, I spoke to the area manager who agreed to foot the bill no question asked and also offered compensation, which i didn't take, covering the repair and his apology was enough for me.

Imagine making that sweeping generalisation about any other occupation or group of people? I can only hope that the commentator who made that snidey, sneering insult is a renowned genius. Despite the evidence to the contrary.

@blokeuptheroad having worked in the trade for over 20 years, I could tell you many tales of woe involving fast fit type places, and brake fitters. I'm sure there are plenty exceptions to that generalisation, but if you've ever dealt with a typical brake fitter, you'll soon realise most have got little clue as to how what they're working on actually works.

To give an example, a previous employer had a driver/workshop assistant. Nice guy, but if you talked to him, you'd soon realise that there wasn't really that much going on between the ears, and who could get lost within the industrial estate. It took us several months, but he could eventually manage changing most tyres without assistance.
He left us to go work for a fast fit chain, and last I heard, he was training to be their Suspension/Steering/Alignment specialist. We didn't even trust him to torque wheels, we only let him change the tyres, yet there was a company quite happily letting him do safety critical repairs with little training, and that is far from uncommon.

A fast fit place is the last place I'd consider taking any vehicle for any safety related work, however there are also plenty garages with supposedly fully trained techs who really don't manage much better. The motor trade is full of people being paid to do jobs, who have little idea of what they're actually doing.

A key question to ask, is why is the motor trade so resistant to technician licensing?
Very few people would pay somebody unlicensed to fix their boiler, or an unlicensed electrician to carry out electrical work, but most people are quite happy to have anybody fix their vehicle.

I'm not perfect, and have had some interesting f*$* up's over the years, but I generally know how/why I done something wrong, and addressed the problem.
However leaving a brake pad out is major issue, and if I'd done it, I would be sacked. There is no excuse for it, especially on a setup where the pad can't just fall out.

Key thing when doing any brake work, is prior to refitting the wheel, you give everything a visual check, which includes pads are in and fitted the correct way round, all bolts/pins are in place, and you have a mental run through to make sure you've tightened everything that should be tightened.
Different garages have different approaches. I worked beside a dealer tech, who had been ingrained to do a five point touch check before closing any bonnet. Screenwash cap, Coolant cap, oil filler cap, dipstick, and finish with a visual check to make sure you've not left anything obvious lying.
All things that should be done as you do the job, but that final 30 second check just gives you that mental run through to check you've done everything, as there might be something you didn't do earlier, due to various reasons.

@blokeuptheroad having worked in the trade for over 20 years, I could tell you many tales of woe involving fast fit type places, and brake fitters. I’m sure there are plenty exceptions to that generalisation, but if you’ve ever dealt with a typical brake fitter, you’ll soon realise most have got little clue as to how what they’re working on actually works.

I'm not questioning your experience but I would respectfully suggest the issue is more likely to be with poor training and supervision in fast fit outlets, rather than "brake fitters are generally a lower level of intelligence". A lot of people conflate education (or training) with intelligence and they are not the same thing.

I could have probably chosen better words, but having dealt with workers in these places, they really aren't employed for their intelligence, or even their ability to do a good job. They're generally employed as they won't get paid as well doing anything else, and only remain employed as long as they don't make any major f*** ups.

The training is rather special. I had a good chat with somebody who worked on a contract training for a national chain, and he hated dealing with them. The chain wanted their fitters to have some form of qualification, and by all accounts it was trying. His example was them arguing over what size of spanner/socket was needed for bolts, and some weren't even confident as to which direction to slacken bolts.

As for supervision, I have never seen any attempt at a quality check being done in any fast fit place. They will no doubt supposed to be done, but these places generally have public policies about the expected standard of repairs and guidelines for advising about any other work, but I'm sure we're all aware of the upselling that goes on.

There's also the easily clever enough to do a good job , but idgas attitude.
It's cold, dark and raining. I've been here for hours in the freezing cold. I can't feel my hands or feet. I hate that supervisor , he gets to sit in the warm and always has a coffee on the go.
He's now given me this bloody brake job to finish before home time. I've not done one of these before, my training was boring. like being back at school and that didn't go well. I'll have a go and see how I get on...

IDGAS isn't restricted to brake fitters.
I've probably met a higher percentage of tyre fitters that GAS, than I have vehicle techs.

Tyre fitters are however usually an interesting breed. They usually know and accept their limits, and are quite happy just to stick to tyres. It's a job that seems to attract those who just want a simple life, and if you don't mind working at the side of a road, can be very well paid.

it would then wind in for ages on first application to find its bite point.

That's my experience too. If you think about it, using software to open the calliper doesn't know if you are fitting new pads or doing something else so it will just wind back in until it gets to where it needs to be. I think I read somewhere that it senses the resistance in the motor circuit.

The training is rather special. I had a good chat with somebody who worked on a contract training for a national chain, and he hated dealing with them. The chain wanted their fitters to have some form of qualification, and by all accounts it was trying. 

A friend was a 'sales' manager for a college that had an automotive training facility and was asked by a chain* if they could organise a brake technician qualification for them. No problem he says, we can organise a 5 day basic course for your staff. Pretty much told it had to be 2 days max or they'd look elsewhere.

* I don't think it was the big one.