You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
If thinking table manners and other social skills are something that require some parental guidance, rather than letting kids make their own rules makes me an 'overly precious boomer', so be it 🙂
Me eating as a 51 year old.
That's disgraceful. Why haven't you taken the labels off?
It’s just good manners.
He’s not accepting this, for some reason.
... because you can't explain why.
And you can't explain why because it's a complete nonsense that someone made up centuries ago. You said it yourself, "what benefit is there?"
This issue has been dividing people since I were a lad. It is a useful skill in some situations, eg meat that needs carving and stabbing, and fish on the bone where it is important to do neither.
But it is also one of those secondary indicators of class by which some will judge us, which is unfortunate.
And you can’t explain why because it’s a complete nonsense that someone made up centuries ago. You said it yourself, “what benefit is there?”
Sure. But I know it's really going to upset some people.
Hence this thread.
If kids can eat appropriately it's a confidence builder, they're never going to feel out of place. It's not about malleability but rather treat it as the norm and it becomes the norm.
I expect it's something to do with sitting at dinner tables in fairly close proximity to each others where, to save a clashing of elbows, it makes sense for everyone to be the same way around and it was normal to have the sharp pointy thing in your dominant hand. ipso facto RH knife - other hand, fork.
These days less of an issue obvs
The art of the fork swirl on the spoon ‘bowl’ to make a little nest of spaghetti.
You can replace the "spoon bowl" with... the bowl. You don't need a spoon to do the fork swirl. And it saves on washing up.
If kids can eat appropriately it’s a confidence builder, they’re never going to feel out of place. It’s not about malleability but rather treat it as the norm and it becomes the norm.
If kids need to be able to fit in to feel confidence then I'd suggest that's not really confidence.
Anyway, we've been arguing with him about this for 5 years. When is it going to become the norm?
But I know it’s really going to upset some people.
Let them be upset? 🤷♂️ If someone is going to be mortally offended because someone else ate fish with the cheese knife then the issue here isn't your kids.
Chewing with your mouth open is bad manners. Holding your fork in a non-prescribed fashion is bad etiquette.
But it is also one of those secondary indicators of class by which some will judge us, which is unfortunate.
I don't think it's anything to do with class. Some people value manners, some people don't. My Grandad was a north Wales coal miner with 8 kids. He was a stickler for good table manners and manners generally. I've met plenty of people with a privileged upbringing who had a complete lack of them.
Even if I didn't think it was important, I think I could have handicapped my kids by not passing on what I knew to be good table manners. I've seen people who feel awkward or self conscious at work related social events or formal occasions because they didn't have that input as a kid.
Not a biggie in the grand scheme of challenges they might face, but if you can head off one little impediment to making their way in the world and instill some self confidence for little effort, why wouldn't you?
Chewing with your mouth open is bad manners. Holding your fork in a non-prescribed fashion is bad etiquette.
This is I guess is the fine line. Your kid will find their natural way of things in time - normally around the point they are interested in relationships. A bit like bothering to wash and sorting your hair. Revolting eating habits reduces the pool of people prepared to do nasty things with you. The picky (and by that I generally mean fit) ones are the first to strike you off the list. Only the spectacularly stupid put themselves on the reject pile for avoidable reasons. As with much in life, the natural desire to procreate normally sorts you out in time.
My kids were capablebof using a knife and fork "properly" by age 6-7, certainly by Scout age.
Admitedly we all shovel peas rather than stab them when its just us*, but we do at least know what to do.
Eldest appears not to have embarrassed himself at formal banquets at Hogwarts Cambridge.
*special exception for MrsMC who doesn’t have much use of her left hand.
is that pasta with cheese sauce and raisins???
I have got to try that.
and it was normal to have the sharp pointy thing in your dominant hand. ipso facto RH knife – other hand, fork.
Think you might be on to something there. Didn't people used to eat only with a knife and nothing else? Trust the UK to base the modern rules on mediaeval customs.
Reminds me of another weird thing that the UK does times tables up to 12, whereas pretty much everywhere else does up to 10. Had an epiphany recently when I realised this is probably due to the old lsd money system.
If kids can eat appropriately it’s a confidence builder,
Eating is about putting food in your mouth, chewing it, then swallowing it. This tread is about social norms, such as removing your hat when you enter a room, it's not about eating. Kids are disgusting when they eat, they mostly grow out of it. This is not some new phenomenom, I'm sure cave people complained about the lack of table manners of their children.
This tread is about social norms, such as removing your hat when you enter a room,
I'm going to guess that this hasn't been a social norm since before the 80s, when people wore hats that weren't baseball caps or beanies, because I can't remember the last time I observed anyone doing this. Even in churches there will be people wearing hats, and not just the bride's mother. 😀 Looking around the office and there a 3 hat wearers in about a dozen people. I am now going to buy an appropriate hat so that I can doff it to the opposite sex (ding dong, Nurse Bell!) and remove it when entering rooms.
Can this thread be combined with the downstairs cloakroom one?
Can this thread be combined with the downstairs cloakroom one?
This.
What if you are wearing a Dryrobe whilst holding your fork incorrectly?
stingmered
Full Member
@RustyNissanPrairieforget about the fork, is that… is that pasta with cheese sauce and raisins??
It's JCB pasta obviously!
You can replace the “spoon bowl” with… the bowl. You don’t need a spoon to do the fork swirl. And it saves on washing up.
Hang on...that bloke is cheating by eating a disgracefully authentic portion size so plenty of empty plate for swirlage.I applaud his style but I'd like to see him pull it off on a properly loaded, carbo loading (who am I kidding - fat boy loading more like!) plate with chuff all white bits showing to get his swirl on.
I expect it’s something to do with sitting at dinner tables in fairly close proximity to each others where, to save a clashing of elbows
That makes sense when you're writing, and only using one hand. Less so when you're using both hands.
The picky (and by that I generally mean fit) ones are the first to strike you off the list. Only the spectacularly stupid put themselves on the reject pile for avoidable reasons. As with much in life, the natural desire to procreate normally sorts you out in time.
An ex used to eat with her fingers, and not just pizza/sandwiches/chips. Until she pointed this out I genuinely never noticed. Easier being vegetarian with no tough meat to have to cut up, and only ordered food that didn't need a knife and fork, but still a skill to hide it! Proof positive that you can get away with almost anything with good conversation and massive ........
My OH utterly grosses me out if I watch her eat, it's a genuinely upsetting spectacle to watch. And you have to watch because it takes her 20 minutes to plate up and acquire condiments so if you don't start eating before her your food will be cold.
In conclusion; if your eyeline has drifted down as far as the table the dates a disaster anyway 😂
While we are on the subject, what about weirdos who hold the knife as if it were a pen? I think they think it looks ‘refined’, but it’s just idiotic.
Yeah, trying to look ‘posh’ and achieving the exact opposite I think. I always wonder how they can eat anything that actually requires a bit of effort to slice. Steak for example. You’d need to ensure you always ate soft, beige food if you hold your knife like you were painting a delicate watercolour.
I was always told that holding your knife like a pen was a very common ("common" as in your gran would tell you off for being "common as muck") thing to do. The "proper" way is with your index finger on top of the knife, just before the blade. My gran has been dead some forty years and I still wouldn't dare contradict her......she was fierce!!
A more entertaining question, is how many people can/do actually eat with chopsticks.
Because being a snob about holding a knife like a pen, then eating your sweet and sour chicken balls with a fork is surely peak hypocrisy 😂
What if you are wearing a Dryrobe whilst holding your fork incorrectly?
Nuke from orbit, obv. It's the only way to be sure.
your sweet and sour chicken balls
Aren't chicken female?
Aren’t chicken female?
Nope. Well not exclusively.
No problems in our household, i’m still working to get them to use a soup spoon properly, as in pushing it away from you to load up with soup
That's just an English affectation.
I guess as mentioned above when I was growing up we all ate the same meals around the table seven days a week (no I don't mean the same thing seven days a week) usually with a knife and fork though there were certain meals where it was acceptable to eat with fork only (the Germans do this for things like goulash and potatoes where a knife would be superfluous). In fact I got told off at school once for not using a knife and my Mum gave them a piece of her mind.
I eat spaghetti with a fork only, no spoon. It's not hard.
In a posh restaurant I would probably go by convention and use a knife and fork, but there is no way I would ever try to balance peas on the back of my fork, there lies madness.
It took an American to point out to me that pizza could be eaten without a knife and fork.
I eat my peas with honey
Ive done it all my life
It makes the peas taste funny
But they do stick on the knife
Chopsticks use maxxes out cultural differences. Full of admiration for those that use them proficiently - I can sort of but I'd not trust myself to guarantee an incident free meal whilst talking and thinking about something else.
But...and it's a flipping massive but.....anyone I've eaten with who does this naturally as their default eating style from birth and the food makes 90% of the journey from the table to their mouth still in the bowl. The chopsticks are only trusted with the last few inches. To me that kind of says its a bit of a crap method. But it highlights differences in 'manners' -if you were sat around a table and picked up your plate of food in a western society and just forked it in your gob from a bowl hovering just under your chin people would look at you very weirdly. Knife and forkers have our plates on the table (or pseudo table if eating off your lap).
I was in India with work over the summer leading some kids. We had two locals with us too helping with the project. When in front of the kids they ate 'western' with knife and fork. As soon as we were on our own and they were more relaxed they used their hands. Apparently they thought it was the polite thing to do when with a western group. It was 3 weeks of an earth toilet too. Our kids found it challenging because of the flies and smell etc. Our two indian guides found the whole concept of toilet roll the most revolting part of the experience. Cultural norms drive our world.
I can use chopsticks with my left hand and have also eaten sadza/meelies with my hands in Africa, it can be done elegantly (by the locals).
I take my hat off when I got indoors.
Because being a snob about holding a knife like a pen, then eating your sweet and sour chicken balls with a fork is surely peak hypocrisy
Aren't chicken balls an invention for the UK market, anyway there is a proper way to use chopsticks too.
Holding your knife 'like a pen' is the correct way. As is only using a fork for spaghetti. I'll get me coat ....
My kids always had their meals at the table, no radio or TV, we ate and talked.
You say this as if it's something of note...
Next you'll be telling us they are food and drank liquid.
🤨
Whoever invented table etiquette: “Hey let’s make people use the fork with their weaker uncoordinated hand, it’ll be a laugh!”
This. I'm right handed but have always used fork in right hand as it just makes more sense to me. Particularly these days when a lot of the meals I make are only using a fork such as pasta, curry, stir-fry etc served in a bowl.
I'd expect someone to be able to use a knife and fork appropriately, and chew with a closed mouth. Like this (reverse is fine if you are left handed or perfer it)..
If nothing else you have more control over what you are doing...
But I'm not going to get all bent out of shape if someone uses a desert spoon to consume soup instead of a soup spoon.
EDIT..in company obvioulsly, If I'm on my own I'll sometimes eat stuff straight out of the pan with a fork...why create more washing up?!
But I’m not going to get all bent out of shape if someone uses a desert spoon to consume soup instead of a soup spoon.
Oh I insist on a soup spoon but not one of those ridiculous bowl shaped things that you sip off the side off.
Yep we need to have a think about the connection between grazing at the fridge, pizza, fries and fizzy pop in front of the box and obesity. Sadly, that's the reality for a lot of kids and it's not doing them any favours.
Like this (reverse is fine if you are left handed or perfer it)..
If nothing else you have more control over what you are doing…
Maybe if "what you're doing" is waiting to impale food out of the air as it comes whizzing past, before sticking it in your left ear. No wonder the plate is empty and there's crap all over the table. 😁
One of our scouts sat down to eat a burger in a bun with a knife and fork.
One of our scouts sat down to eat a burger in a bun with a knife and fork.
Well I must admit I'm a bit confused as to how you are supposed to eat one of these massive burger towers that seem so in vogue now. I mean you can't actually pick it up and take a bite can you?
One of our scouts sat down to eat a burger in a bun with a knife and fork
It's less messy that way.
Anyone that uses cutlery to eat a burger or pizza should not be allowed to eat either ever again. It’s supposed to be messy you beautiful, sad weird people.
I take my hat off when I got indoors.
me too. I’m a huge hat fan but it just marks you out as special and not in the birthday way if you’re wearing one inside.
Well I must admit I’m a bit confused as to how you are supposed to eat one of these massive burger towers that seem so in vogue now. I mean you can’t actually pick it up and take a bite can you?
Agreed... burgers are designed to be eaten by hand. If you can't pick it up and bite it without dropping half of it all over yourself, whats the point?
Poor design for no reason, especially if they have to stick a wooden cocktail/kebab stick through it to prevent it from collapsing under its own weight.
Do you have Trump hands?
Nobody noticed the caveman fist eaters then? Mostly adults from memory The business end of tool sticking out of clenched fist next to thumb meaning only way to scoop is to scoop towards user makes actual eating look quite a challenge. Lots of tv ads showing poor technique can’t help people eh?
Agreed… burgers are designed to be eaten by hand. If you can’t pick it up and bite it without dropping half of it all over yourself, whats the point?
Poor design for no reason, especially if they have to stick a wooden cocktail/kebab stick through it to prevent it from collapsing under its own weight.
100% with you on this. It's a goddamn sandwich.
I never quite worked out what do to with the stick. Take it out so it all slides apart, or risk losing an eye. Are you supposed to move it around as you go? Madmess.
Yes, never really got the greed burger thing. Is there penis compensation going on here where you've got to be able to order something so massive the whole restaurant bows down to the meat package you must be hefting in your trousers? Or just some sort of restaurant on restaurant oneupmanship that's got out of hand and noone knows how to back down?
Here's a thought...a little bit crazy I know....if you really are that hungry you could order two burgers of edible proportions?
All the above plus brioche buns are shit. Give me a hu**** any day.
Do you have Trump hands?
I hope not! lol!
Pull stick out, split burger in half so that it doesn’t just slide apart, eat with knife and fork.
Then you may aswell buy a proper steak and chips... and a knife and fork.
The whole point of a burger is that it's easy to eat 'on the go' with your hands without making a mess.
Once you cross over into the domain of 'artisan' burgers, you are truly lost. 😉
They'll be putting lids on stews and calling them pies next, mark my words.
It truly is stupid but, people must buy them or they wouldn't sell them. I suspect a lot of it is just Marketing, people see it and go "oh my god, look at that!" without much thought - or care, I suppose - for the practicalities.
Chopsticks use maxxes out cultural differences. Full of admiration for those that use them proficiently – I can sort of but I’d not trust myself to guarantee an incident free meal whilst talking and thinking about something else.
But…and it’s a flipping massive but…..anyone I’ve eaten with who does this naturally as their default eating style from birth and the food makes 90% of the journey from the table to their mouth still in the bowl. The chopsticks are only trusted with the last few inches. To me that kind of says its a bit of a crap method.
Chopsticks just take practice. Once you get used to them, it's just like picking up stuff with your fingers. When you eat noodles, you put the bowl up to your mouth so you don't splatter soup everywhere but most stuff you just pick up off the plate and transfer to you mouth as though you were picking it up with your fingers.
Fork’s job: spike things, scoop things, balance things, turn things, lift things up and transfer into small facial hole without dropping it in your lap, etc.
Knife’s job: back and forth sawing motion. Or sit still to be a wall to push against.
Whoever invented table etiquette: “Hey let’s make people use the fork with their weaker uncoordinated hand, it’ll be a laugh!”
Absolutely, which is what I do with the knife in my right hand and the fork in my left hand. I’m right handed.
Except when I use a bow or a rifle, then I’m left handed. Just to be awkward.
I can’t remember a time when I couldn’t use a knife and fork, or tie my shoe laces, or even read a book; I was reading at quite an early age, my folks bought me books on nature, encyclopaedia sets, some of which I still have, and I could read quite difficult words.
On the other hand, my ability with maths is not very good, I struggle to work out percentages with a sodding calculator!
For all the people who hold the fork in their non dominant hand; if you eat with just a fork, do you still hold it that way? If you’re eating a bag of crisps, which hand do you use to eat with?
No, if I’m eating a curry or something similar, I just use a fork in my right hand to pick up whatever it is, either scooping or skewering, and a spoon for the more liquid parts. I eat crisps with my right hand, and I use chopsticks with my right hand.
I guess I’m slightly ambidextrous, I use whichever hand is appropriate for whatever it is I happen to be doing or eating.
Just makes sense to me.🤷🏼
Right handed people are weird. They hold the fork in the left hand, do sawing with right hand, and then swap over to the right hand to do shovelling, and then swap back to do more sawing.<br />To be fair what you are describing their are right handed Americans. And their odd table manners is the least of their problems. They are Americans.<br /><br />
Exactly. Although, as I said above, I don’t need to swap hands, I’m perfectly capable of using my left hand to feed myself with, it’s just easier to hold the food in place with the fork, slice a piece of with the knife, then bring the food to my mouth with the fork, or use the knife to push softer food, like mashed potato, peas or whatever onto the ‘U’ of the fork. Anything else seems unnecessarily awkward.
I’m right handed.
Except when I use a bow or a rifle, then I’m left handed. Just to be awkward.
I know little about guns aside from using some wrong-handed can be seriously dangerous.
Bow handedness on the other hand should be dictated by eye dominance rather than hand dominance, you want to be sighting down the arrow stave rather than across it. I shoot right-handed (there was no LH equipment available when I learned) and compensate by closing my left eye for a final adjustment before loose.
Do you have a snake’s jaw?
Yep and adult sized hands 😝
When I’m doing the cooking you need the knife in the strong hand to have a hope of cutting through 🙂
Chopstick use in Japan was our party trick.
“Hashi ga jouzu ne”
Never got old. Well, only after the first hundred times. The idea that a westerner could use them was contrary to the decades of cultural exceptionalism that they’d been steeped in.
Our canteen used to serve a dessert of almond jelly cut into diamond shapes, served in a bit of syrup. Now that was a challenge that made peas seem straightforward.
Was thinking about this as I logged in. Sad hey?
Anyway, whilst on dinner duty at work today, (Very small primary school) I shall see about 20 kids, half the school having cooked lunches. Admittedly this will be about 15 infants as they eat free but most of them at 5 or 6 will use their fork as a shovel at best and will happily pick up chips, jacket spud, carrots, gravy etc with their paws. Of the older ones most will shovel or hold their forks as a dagger. One 7 year old will be a model pupil. It is revolting the way their general lack of tool handling skills results in most of them wearing a good part of their food and that includes the older ones.
Christmas dinner coming up in the village hall, thankfully organised by the PTA which means that school staff lurk on their own tables with their back to the riot. Bet you with double the number of kids eating a cooked meal including the older ones the average number of even vaguely correct tool users will be much the same.
I blame Brexit, the Tories, millennials and boomers for the atrocious state of decorum when it comes to putting food in the mouth. This wouldn’t have happened back in the days of empire. Back then people knew how to hold cutlery at the correct angle. It may have come at the heavy price of slavery, genocide, theft and cultural appropriation, but my god those people could hold their heads high knowing they had impeccable table manners. It’s no wonder climate change exists when young Johnny doesn’t know his soup spoon from his cheese knife. What’s the world coming to! Outrageous!
It’s not so much about eating with a knife and fork, but how many crumbs are left all over the table and floor
Correct use of the tools impacts on this massively
You can see the difference between schools that teach use of the tools and those that dont
I use fork in my right hand, Spoon in my right hand, knife in my left. As a result so do my kids. As long as they are eating sensibly and politely then I am happy.
I eat the way I do as that's how my left handed mum taught me.
We bought our nephew a 'Beatrix Potter child's knife and fork' set when he was young. He moved onto bigger cutlery when older, but we always ate our meals at the table, chatted about the day, had a laugh, he could use cutlery properly and was once complimented in a cafe by a waitress, who said what a well mannered child. My Italian uncle taught me to eat with a fork and spoon certain pasta dishes. If someone has spent time preparing a good meal it should be eaten at a table properly.
Oh and we always finish with the knife and fork closed together.
Whereas the neighbour's children wander around the garden holding finger food (even eating on the trampoline).
Manners maketh man and my parents were sticklers for good table manners.
My kids are 9 and 13, and have been taught to use a knife and fork, so of course they can.<br /><br />Whether they choose to is another matter...
My 13 year old would force his face into the plate and snout about if he could, and my darling 9 year old has a penchant for eating peas with her hands.
Kids...FFS..
DrP
Anyone that uses cutlery to eat a burger or pizza should not be allowed to eat either ever again. It’s supposed to be messy you beautiful, sad weird people.
It's not that straight forward, depends where I am, who I'm with and the size of the burger, it also stops you burning the roof of your mouth if the cheese on the pizza is the temperature of lava.
If it annoys other people, well then that's just an added bonus 😀
It's remarkable that your "weak" hand can be trained to play a piano or guitar but some people think it is inadequately dextrous (see what I did there?) for the task of moving food from plate to mouth.
Well, that was "fun" . Spag boll today that comes in an urn in the one big solid mass plus a mix of broccoli, carrot and peas slopped on top. Many a finger got covered in tomato sauce but virtually no knives were used. Or jacket spud with beans and the same veg. Yummy and messy. Poor little buggers can hardly hold a knife let alone hack through a boot leather potato jacket.
It’s not that straight forward, depends where I am, who I’m with and the size of the burger, it also stops you burning the roof of your mouth if the cheese on the pizza is the temperature of lava.
If it annoys other people, well then that’s just an added bonus 😀
it’s really simple. Pick up food type with hand(s) and proceed to eat. If food is too big, squash or feel ashamed of your Trump hands. If food is too hot, realise this by the fact it is too hot.
I genuinely love you bunch of freaks. In all my life I’ve never come across a burger that is too big, heavy or awkward to consume by hand. Where are you all eating, ****ing Brogdingnag! 😂 and magical utensils that tell the surface temperature of pizza
In all my life I’ve never come across a burger that is too big, heavy or awkward to consume by hand. Where are you all eating
Exhibit A, Almost Famous, Manchester
My two can, although they're lazy and often try to just use the fork, but in the wrong hand. I've even seen my son scoop food onto his fork with his hand despite being told numerous times to use his knife and fork properly. My threat of no pudding normally gets them back using their cutlery properly.
I actually prefer to eat a big burger with a knife and fork, especially in a restaurant. Burgers in fast food places are relatively small so they're eaten with the hands.
Burgers
in fast food placesarerelatively small so they’reeaten with the hands.
FTFY.
Exhibit A, Almost Famous, Manchester
Can’t tell how big that is without something else for scale. More importantly why is it just sat on the table! I’d eat that without utensils. Burgers are dirty junk food so eating them should feel a bit dirty and wrong.
It’s remarkable that your “weak” hand can be trained to play a piano or guitar but some people think it is inadequately dextrous (see what I did there?) for the task of moving food from plate to mouth.
Which is still going to be weaker than your dominant hand.
What is the sensible argument for holding in the left hand which only suits a small percentage of the population?
A quick google seems to indicate its a slight evolution of "hold in left hand to cut, move to right to eat" so ironically it may have originating from some people being incapable of training their left hand to do anything useful.