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Had a boggo Sliva delivered to work to replace the one I've inexplicably lost from my pack. Was astounded to learn from my immediate colleagues and then from the folk who sit near me that not one of them knew how to take a bearing on a map and navigate to where you want to go using the direction of travel arrow.
Bad news...Holy shitty bloody nora, this is pretty basic stuff...
Good news...Toni (executive sec) thinks I'm some sort of cross between bear grills and and grizzly adams...How you doin'...?
Nope, not a clue.
Yes, I draw really good circles 🙂
Yes. But then I've been involved with Scouts on/off since I was 8 (now 44) and have done a few trip/expeditions where it has been vital.
My 10 year old daughter can set a map using a compass and work out where she should be going.
Yes pretty well actually 🙂
My 10 year old daughter can set a map using a compass and work out where she should be going.
My daughter is older but when she did her DOE she said she was the only one who could read a map and use a compass!
Well yes. But I'm into all that shizzle.
Using a compass is not on a school curriculum so if you were not in the scouts or did DofE and your folks were not into the whole great outdoors thing there's a fair chance folk would not have to touch one ever especially in the smartphone/gps era of 'navigationlite'.
Yes (I was a munroist)
I find some stuff people don't know really weird...
It makes me wonder what other kids did in their childhood....
I find people that don't know stuff like chips come from potatoes etc. the most baffling... it's like eating something but not knowing what it is?
Hope so, got my MBLA assessment in a fortnight .... 🙂
Yes. Learning how to read maps and use a compass was part of Geography when I were a lad.
Quite easily but the real skill is in reading the map so you avoid wasting time and energy or worse still getting yourself in a dangerous position.
yeah but can you drink your own urine, eat the heart of dead animals, wrestle an alligator, leap across molten lava.... 🙂
Yes.
I find it mind-boggling that so many of the outdoor-types that I meet have no clue whatsoever.
Yes. I can also do the things Tuskaloosa listed above*
*This may or may not be entirely true
The trick is reading it at speed. I struggle with this but more of an eyesight issue than technical skills 🙁
I can, but I can easily understand why people don't. Not really a useful skill if you aren't into outdoor pursuits is it? And you know, not everyone is - shocking, I know.
I understand that Molgrips, but a compass? it's like being able to use a biro, surely?
Yes. Part of O level geography plus its so ridiculously easy that surely anyone can work it out.
Obv
Did the entire S. Cluanie ridge in a cloud base of 500 ft 😐
Using a compass is not on a school curriculum
I teach it and lots of others do too but it's actually a fairly niche thing and it's forgotten pretty quickly without repeated practice.
it's like being able to use a biro, surely?
Nope. What % of the population do you think regularly need to use a compass? Why would they bother their arses learning?
You could work it out, though right? some of my colleagues couldn't even orient themselves to point North using the bloody thing. (one of them managed to work it out in the end TBF to him)
Yes but then I can also read maps and use a slide rule and log tables.
You could work it out, though right?
To take and follow a bearing in poor visibility (which is pretty much the only real use for a compass)? No chance someone could work that out and barring zombie apocalypse why would they ever need to?
I've run the nav leg of the British Fell Relays several times ...still done dumb things & thinking of going on a course to get better tho 🙂
Only 4 of us in the office this afternoon.
Just did a quick poll and 75% of us can.
Yes, I draw really good circles
That would be a [url= https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pair_of_compasses ]pair of compasses[/url] 😉
(Unless the compass is circular and you are drawing around it) 😉
Just did a quick poll too, 0 people in this office of 8 can use a compass.
I've done a bit of orienteering over the years, so handy to know how to use a compass. Can be fun trying to follow a bearing while running through a forest.
Also can be useful to find the way off a mountain summit in thick fog.
yes
cub, scout, venture scout etc
But back to the OP - I don't see why anyone should be 'astonished' that someone else can't do what they can do. I am sure other people have skills the OP doesn't have.
And no, I cannot use a compass. I tried and failed miserably at trying to understand it so gave up seeing as I really don't have a need to be able to use one as I only ever really ride trail centres but 99.9% of my riding is now on road and I never go walking / orienteering other than clear signposted family walks.
I find it mind-boggling that so many of the outdoor-types that I meet have no clue whatsoever.
+1 to this.
I have done a fair bit of navigation based races so pretty handy with a map and compass.
It still to this day baffles me how people are prepared to go out and about in the hills not knowing the basics of navigation.
I understand your average Joe or Jo not knowing as its pretty niche nowadays but mountain bikers and fell runners and walkers there really is no excuse. It seems that its a common thing.
I know the theory, have one on me (along with a map) if I'm in the mountains, but it's rare I need to get it out, so my practical skills are probably average.
I'm generally of the opinion that if I need a compass I've already made a hash of things that I could probably have avoided if I had read the map more carefully.
It's easy once you grasp that the baseplate rotates around the compass to read off the direction.
The only time I ever used mine while cycling was on Polaris in the North York moors when we arrived at a crossroads in forestry on a dull day and had absolutely no idea at all which way to turn. Sort of like Tom Hanks at the end of Cast Away.
Lost in the fog up a mountain?
Simply stream a quick YouTube video tutorial on the use of a map and compass and you'll soon be on your way to safety.....
johndoh, yep, sorry guilty as charged, a little hyperbole never hurt anyone. Some of my friends had never held one, didn't know what it did etc etc, I supposed I'm so used to them that I don't give it a moments thought that I could (if needed) find my way off a hillside if the weather came in, but yes you're right, if you've no intention of being there in the first place, why would you bother.
using the compass is one thing, being out in the hills and knowing where you are on a map, to within, say 100m, without the aid of GPS, is something quite different.
I can, but I can easily understand why people don't. Not really a useful skill if you aren't into outdoor pursuits is it? And you know, not everyone is - shocking, I know.
By itself no but being able to take a bearing is just part of map reading.
Somewhat independently its also useful to set up an arial or satellite dish
Combined with map-reading having a sense of the direction you are travelling helps know if you are turning left or right... etc.
Not long ago I had to go to a visa place in London with my boss to get some business visa's. I looked at the route on my phone, memorised it and set off... it was bloody cold and he kept stopping to take his gloves off and look at the phone.He kept following me then stopping to check ... and we had an appointment time... so I convinced him to just trust me to get us there without GPS.... we had a single corner and 2 street to go before he doubted me... so I told him.. we go to the next corner, cross the first street and its before the second on the right...
We got there and he thought this was a god like gift.... I think he thought I'd wrestle polar bears in St Petersburg if we met any...
When we got to St Petersburg we had a late flight back on Saturday so we wandered round a few sights. Again I just looked at a map and have a little compass on my rucksack .company phone has no data...so GPS isn't an option. Its pretty much navigate between dome, palace, bridge... and again he ascribed god like powers to this basic map reading... (My memory is very good for maps and I had an advantage being able to read the signs he couldn't but still it was just basicmap reading and GPSless navigation)
Use of a compass and navigating/sense of direction/way finding is one of those "Life skills" that people in the past often just did that is being/has been lost due to the advance and availability of technology.
If you don't 'exercise' the brain with such activities, the skills are lost.
I very rarely use a gps for way-finding, but then I enjoy the process of either "following my nose" or looking at a route in advance, picking out a few way-points and then setting off there by whatever mode of transport.
I do know how to use one, but only because I was in the scouts. Given the number of people who might need to know, and the availability of GPS has made this a niche?
That said, I was possibly a bit too pleased with myself recently when I triangulated my position on a Welsh hillside by using two landmarks.
That said, I was possibly a bit too pleased with myself recently when I triangulated my position on a Welsh hillside by using two landmarks.
Surely you biangulated if you only used 2 landmarks? And if you can see landmarks you shouldn't really need to be using a compass to work out where you are. 😉
I looked at the route on my phone, memorised it and set off...
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Surely you biangulated if you only used 2 landmarks? And if you can see landmarks you shouldn't really need to be using a compass to work out where you are.
Nah, I drew a triangle on the map and everything... it took longer and was less precise than using a GPS, but that's not the point now is it!
Surely you biangulated if you only used 2 landmarks? And if you can see landmarks you shouldn't really need to be using a compass to work out where you are.
I'm not sure if the winky means you're not serious, but Poe's law applies - if you're taking two back bearings you're making a triangle, you try determining exactly where you are on a featureless hillside using landmarks in the distance without a compass.
Nah, I drew a triangle on the map and everything... it took longer and was less precise than using a GPS, but that's not the point now is it!
That's not triangulation.
That's plotting 2 bearings to get 2 position lines and a position. It's navigation but not triangulation.
triangulation definition(in surveying) the tracing and measurement of a series or network of triangles in order to determine the distances and relative positions of points spread over an area, especially by measuring the length of one side of each triangle and deducing its angles and the length of the other two sides by observation from this baseline.
...I don't think I've ever triangulated personally, generally there's only doubt over your position in one dimension (because you're following a path or a ridge) and a single bearing is sufficient to resolve that. CBA with drawing on the map either!
That's not triangulation.That's plotting 2 bearings to get 2 position lines and a position. It's navigation but not triangulation.
Using a map, compass and landmarks to identify your position is not triangulation? That's not what I was taught...
That's plotting 2 bearings to get 2 position lines and a position. It's navigation but not triangulation.
Except it is. Just because somebody else has already measured the distance and angle of one side of the triangle doesn't change that. ransos might not have drawn the accurately surveyed third side of the triangle but it still exists (on the map).
generally there's only doubt over your position in one dimension (because you're following a path or a ridge)
Except when you're not.
From Merriam Webster:
any similar trigonometric operation for finding a position or location by means of bearings from two fixed points a known distance apart
That's what I did, wasn't it? As aracer says, the two landmarks are a known distance apart because they are on the map.
I know it in theory and I've done it, but it's been so long since I've needed to I'd have to look at the map key to work out how far, and which way, to adjust for the grid / mag difference.
Thinking about it, I doubt I've had cause to actually take a bearing this millenium.
[quote="gobuchul"] Awesome....
Except it's not.... it's a pretty basic life skill.
We only had smartphones a decade or so... what exactly did these people do before?
I'm good at memorising the key points on maps because of practice... but its just very basic knowing [b]what [/b]to memorise.. like in St Petersburg knowing I needed to follow a road/river until a bridge then the next landmark being a big onion dome or football stadium etc.
One thing I noticed in India is everyone uses landmarks... even in addresses like "2 streets from the power transformer across the small river towards the hill - number 44"
Think so....
Not had to do it since I was in the Scouts or Army Cadets, so I'd probably struggle on the finer details but I'd be going the right [i]general[/i] direction. Give or take 45° 😀
My 7yo is in Beavers and her mum is volunteering as an assistant leader, so no doubt I'll get some revision in the not too distant future.
Isn't that called a cocked hat rather than triangulation?
That's plotting 2 bearings to get 2 position lines and a position. It's navigation but not triangulation.
YOU are the 3rd point of the triangle.
I can find North using the sun and a wris****ch.... ha HA!*
*Clouds, night time and a digital watch could cause issues....
I can find North using the sun and a wris****ch...
Handy skill but essentially useless in Scotland 😀
Except it's not.... it's a pretty basic life skill.
No it's not. If you intend on being in the middle of nowhere on a regular basis then it is very useful, but for the majority of us it is not useful.
We only had smartphones a decade or so... what exactly did these people do before?
When I rode off-road lots I got all my maps from MTB Magazine - I would just rip it out, go riding and read the instructions if required. Yes we got a bit lost a few times but nothing terminal.
That's plotting 2 bearings to get 2 position lines and a position. It's navigation but not triangulation.
It is triangulation - two points on the map, you're the third one - triangle.
My 7yo is in Beavers and her mum is volunteering as an assistant leader, so no doubt I'll get some revision in the not too distant future.
It will be a while yet, I'm sure they don't do compasses in beavers and I don't think properly in cubs either (at least my lad who is about to leave cubs never has). I certainly first did it with scouts.
Except when you're not.
Extremely rare that you're not following some sort of line feature in circumstances where there is sufficient visibility to take a back bearing. Even if that's something like following a contour line using an altimeter! At some point you might use the compass to provide that line, but in such circumstances I'd probably not be bothered about exactly where I am along it. I'd be surprised if I've not done more nav through trackless terrain than anyone else on here, and actually it's surprising how much you can do without a compass given a good map and sense for terrain (I've used a compass far more for orienteering than anything else, in which case you're certainly not taking traditional bearings - I use a compass without a rotating bezel)
I can use one, but it's hardly surprising if Joe Public generally can't is it? Why would they know how if they have never needed to use one and are never likely to?
That said, I'd like to think that a lot of people could figure out the basics if they messed around with a map and compass for 15 minutes.
I can sort of use a compass. Following a bearing and turning the bezel on the map is fine. But i come unstuck when i get part way down that bearing and find a feature i need to go round. Screws everything up... so i avoid going out if it's crap weather and route is not known or marked.
How do you get better at it? Without trial and error/ involvement of mountain rescue...
Except it's not.... it's a pretty basic life skill.
Is it? Really?
Swimming. First Aid. Yes.
Using a compass? Nah.
My dad taught me when I was young, I also got taught in Geography in school (whether this was part of curriculum or just a good teacher, not sure). I love maps though, always have done always will. Even though I have a GPS I still use map and compass out in the hills as it's better and leads you to explore more. Too many people just follow a plotted red line on a tiny GPS screen and miss the bigger picture.
Cocked hat is when you have three lines from distant points intersecting and since you never get the angles absolutely correct they invariably don't cross at a single point but form a small triangle - the cocked hat.
If you are in mist/cloud/whiteout then you can use the aspect of the slope you are on to get an idea of where you are. I've only ever been "lost" twice in the Lakes, both times in the Fairfield area. The first time I wasn't sure if I was on the Rydal side or the Seat Sandal side of the ridge (dunno how I'd got where I was) - simply knowing that I was on a western slope meant I simply had to contour to the right to find the path down towards Grisedale Hause and Grisedale Tarn.
Yes, it's a basic need for any sail racing or cruising.
I'm not amazed most folks can't use one, not really a requirement to go to the shops is it.
Cubs, scouts then school CCF then yachting. So yes. Also can use a sextant. And have a collection of slide rules including spiral and circular. So why can't I find a hot woman? 😳 😀
No and I can't swim either, I'm stuffed if I'm lost at sea on a boat which then sinks,
I've never used a cocked hat, but have used aspect of the slope a few times. Last time was on beinn dorain in a total white out just to not end up in the wrong valley with a massive walk out
In case anyone is interested:
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2015/11/map-reading-skills-how-to-use-a-compass-2/
Yes, it's a basic need for any sail racing or cruising.
Now that I would dispute - I've done plenty of sail racing and never used a compass during one.
Last time was on beinn dorain in a total white out just to not end up in the wrong valley with a massive walk out
Many years ago we cocked up on Beinn Dorain and ended up in the wrong valley with a massive walk out...
aracer - Member
Yes, it's a basic need for any sail racing or cruising.
Now that I would dispute - I've done plenty of sail racing and never used a compass during one.
Dispute it all you like.
Plot me a course to the Canaries from...ohh, Hamble.
Used to know how but I think I'd struggle now. Then again I have no need to do so. Don't do any hill walking and when out on the bike I can normally find my way or ask someone for basic directions.
Bloody Beinn Dorain...
When I was practising my navigation skills, in particular timing distances, I predicted we would reach the summit of Beinn Dorain in 15 minutes, based off where I thought we were (it was misty).
15 minutes later a substantial cairn looms out of the mist and I allow myself a moments smugness, which my companion grudgingly accepts is warranted.
Then the mist lifts and we see the rest of the hill extending beyond. I had successfully navigated us only as far as the Sassenach's cairn, so called because apparently Sassenachs can't navigate in the hills... 😳
[quote=bikebouy ]Dispute it all you like.
Plot me a course to the Canaries from...ohh, Hamble.
I'm sure I could, but it's not really required when going round the cans.
Yes I can
and as a Geologist and I can draw up the maps as well
So, how would [i]you[/i] decide that the line is biased or perhaps where the windward mark is 1nm away in choppy conditions? Or perhaps Championship event RO's give the course vector in..ohh.. hand signals or smoke or maybe shine a light on it.
RTC short course racing is easily done without a compass, if you know the course and where the marks are. Add in an Open Meeting where competitors new to the water are racing and the RO will [i]always[/i] give a compass vector to the windward mark.
You've no need to pick up on anything I've mentioned, I've ran Olympic Qualifiers and all sorts of World Champs as RO. Raced RORC events for the last 25 years (won loads), multiple World Champs in Small and Big boats, including 7 ARC's..
But hey, the RYA Day Skipper onshore course page two outlines what a compass is, and how to use it.
Blah, di..blah.
Yes, I can use one, but in 15 years of proper mountain biking I can honestly say I've never actually had to take a bearing.
Used to do a bit of hiking which required it, as we were always off paths, but no need any more really.