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Like, if you think about the cassette on your bike or your front door at home? If someone asks you to picture an ice cream, can you see it in your head?
I can. I didn't realise some people can't until I was talking to one of the guys at work recently . He can't visualise anything and I can't wrap my head around that.
It's a technical job that involves taking stuff apart and putting it back together again. I can't imagine (no pun intended) how you can do that without being able to see the thing in your head?
Apparently, it's quite common but I've made it to 41 years of age without ever even questioning that people might not be able to do it.
Which one of us is the weird one? Me or him?
Neither.
Some people tend towards verbal reasoning, some visual, and some are kinaesthetic.
Like all these categories, I'm pretty sure that what we may have thought was fixed in the past is actually pretty fluid, but may take some effort to change.
...I see dead people!
Yes, always been able to do it as you describe. I also can take flat images at different angles and translate those into 3-D ‘images’ in my head. It’s been a useful skill for me but I am aware it’s not something everyone can do. I spent a lot of time sketching and modelling in card elements of our house conversion for my partner as she just couldn’t translate architectural drawings into what the outcome would be.
Yes.
I can even see conceptual design based on criteria.
Which has been handy on a number of occasions. Can tweak a design in my head before handing it over to a technician to prove it works.
Which serves me quite well as a civil engineer.
Yes - I very much see shapes and spaces. I can also look at a tech drawing like plans of a house and rotate it in my mind and not just see the shapes but the spaces left around the shapes. I am very much a visual person
I see words as images. I can say any word backwards as I 'see' it as an image so just read it in reverse. Nobody else I know has my superpower.
I'm great at parties...?
Of course I can - its what normal people can do.
Only the deviants can't 😉
Yes vey much. When i was young and doing exams i could close my eyes as see my revision notes, unfortunately rarely the words in them i needed to recall. Even how i see alsorts of pictures in my head when discussing things
Yes , everyone can cant they?
Which one of us is the weird one? Me or him?
Aphantasia is not being able to see stuff although, like most things, its on a spectrum from being able to perfectly visualise a book (for example) to nowt. I am towards the nowt end of the spectrum.
The, sort of, opposite is internal monologue/inner voice which again people have along a spectrum.
The two can sort of balance each other out so instead of having a video you can have a step by step guide of what you want to do.
Very interesting. I'll have to give that R4 thing a listen. I can't even picture something basic like a blue square, let alone visualise family or my drive to work that should be ingrained. I can construct how things will be or should be in my mind by logic and memory- I just can't "see" them as such...
Similar to the above, I can visualise shapes, make them 3D and turn them around etc... as well as visualising random stuff, like say a chicken with a pair of jeans on.
I can visualise, rotate, modify, etc images in my head; It keeps me awake at night... thinking, designing, problem solving! Useful though, I look at a map and quickly see it in 3D. On the other hand, I cannot learn other languages, play music or draw anything other than technical diagrams. It's amazing how our brains work.
My son says he can’t see things in his head especially when reading. We’re not sure of this is completely true as it’s his main excuse for not wanting to read when he’s meant to! But definitely seems at least partly true and I wasn’t aware of such a thing until he talked about it.
Yes - I can rotate them and do 2D flat shape to 3D "built" shape too although that does decline if I don't practice it. Like those tests asking which flat shapes can be folded to make a cube or what this shape looks like as a mirror image.
It's an important part of the testing for jobs like Air Traffic Control and mechanical engineering where 3D visualisation is critical. Mirror image stuff was useful for working with enantiomers in my chemistry degree.
Enantiomers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiomer (if anyone is vaguely interested!)
I got to the point, when I was doing loads of sudoku puzzles during breaktimes of being able to visualise rows of numbers too. Not done a sudoku in ages though.
FunkyDuncFree Member
Yes , everyone can cant they?
Certainly not, see the Rutherford and Fry link above. I had no idea until I listened to that, happened to mention it when chatting with my Dad one day and it turns out he's got a mate with no mind's eye. The proper name is aphantasia
No I cannot see things visually in my 'minds eye', the condition is called aphantasia. There is quite an active community on reddit of people realising they have it and having their mind blown when they realise the advice to 'picture everybody naked' at job interviews is not just a metaphor...
bens
It’s a technical job that involves taking stuff apart and putting it back together again. I can’t imagine (no pun intended) how you can do that without being able to see the thing in your head?
Best way I can explain it is that i have a sort of 'wireframe' in my mind of what a shape or room etc would be, but it isn't visual. I have kind of 'spatial sense' where I just know what an object would feel like and look like if i held it in my hands and rotated it.
Same sort of feeling as if you had a powercut at night, you could navigate around your lounge well enough to get to the kitchen drawer for the torch. It's that instinctive feeling of "just knowing" the shape of the object/room/whatever.
The only visual "minds eye" pictures I've ever had are my close families faces and it's fleeting and really weak.
I can however 'hear' music clearly in my 'minds ear'. Apparently some people cannot do that.
I am quite a bit the opposite, I can picture stuff in my head quite clearly, but struggle to put it into words, I use a lot of comparison and analogies when trying to communicate concepts because I just don't know how to describe what I know.
I have never had the ability to write notes when studying, and really don't even understand what anybody gets out of them. I am also awful at describing what I do in job interviews. even though I consider myself pretty good at what I do.
Idon't see it as being a language problem either, it is just seams to be the way my mind works, I am also dyslexic which might contribute.
Gosh this is new to me. I thought everyone had vision in their mind.
As someone who dreads the dentist, I have to lie there and ride an entire trail on my mtb. I see the trail, the drop offs, the gates that need opening, the surrounding hills.
Is it similar thought process while driving or riding, where I picture a crash ahead, or me getting knocked off my bike? Riding home yesterday my head went through this whole scenario of how I'd hit the ground and slide and lie there afterwards. Bizarre. There's a user on here called "thew" that can't do it though! He only sees one scenario and that's it, can't imagine any other outcome for the scenario he's dreamt up. Weird AF.
I can visualise, rotate, modify, etc images in my head; It keeps me awake at night… thinking, designing, problem solving! Useful though, I look at a map and quickly see it in 3D. On the other hand, I cannot learn other languages, play music or draw anything other than technical diagrams. It’s amazing how our brains work.
I think I'm a spatial visualiser. More visual than verbal but very verbal. I've a distant memory of cognitive pschol tests around this sort of thing which looked at whether you were more likely to mix up similar looking letters (O and Q) or similar sounding letters (P and E, I dunno I'm dredging this from depths of memory). I also like maps and mechanics, though the latter clearly not to the extent of many on here. I also like words, languages and playing music (the latter tends to go with more visual thinking, I think). Anyway It's not one thing or the other, and it's different styles more than we're different species,.
A picture may be worth 1000 words but here's a couple of thousand pretty good words on the topic: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/16/how-should-we-think-about-our-different-styles-of-thinking.
Yup,it's a strange and wonderful place inside my head. 😉
Yes – I very much see shapes and spaces. I can also look at a tech drawing like plans of a house and rotate it in my mind and not just see the shapes but the spaces left around the shapes. I am very much a visual person
TJ,having read a lot of your posts over the years , I have often wondered why you became a nurse rather than an engineer*, you clearly enjoy a lot of mechanical/engineering type stuff.
* probably a very annoying one. 😉 🙂
Yep, can remember the shape and feel of objects from decades ago. Shimano 200GS shifters, Tioga Psycho tyres, toe clips & straps...
Can't visualise or remember faces easily at all, though. They're really murky as a comparison.
Yes, it's a useful part of playing sport.
My dad's dog does - recognises the vet when he gets near the house ands visualises the large thermometer that is about to invade his behind.
On the other hand, I cannot learn other languages, play music or draw anything other than technical diagrams.
Oh, that's also me! Absolutely.
Languages, I can kind of get by once I'm in the country and getting used to it but the idea of anything more than the absolute basics is beyond me. I was terrible at school with languages.
I used to play guitar as a kid but it took lots and lots of work to claw my way up to Grade 3 and I was never getting any better. Can't even read music now. I can *listen* to music and visualise all sorts - especially classical music where I can reasonably reliably identify a lot of it but playing anything...? Nope!
TJ,having read a lot of your posts over the years , I have often wondered why you became a nurse rather than an engineer*, you clearly enjoy a lot of mechanical/engineering type stuff.
I did look at engineering at uni but decided against it. Partly public service ethos, partly looking at pensions even at 18. Also I worked as a care assistant and enjoyed it.
I would probably have made a decent technician / mechanic but I am not sure about engineering - my maths is poor. Probably have been a geeky annoying engineer with even less social skills than I have developed 🙂
To OP, yes. I can also visualise things based on touch (sometimes) and from photos/maps. It the main way I have for "seeing" parts of cars when I am taking them apart and fixing them (of "fixing" them).
Te map thing is super-handy if I am out walking. Beig able to relate what I have seen to how the ground is supposed to look is really handy.
W**k bank ?
that's where i thought this was going...
I was equally baffled when I realised people could actually 'see' images in there minds. I'm on the far end of the spectrum for it and have pretty much no ability to visualise at all. I thought it was just a figure of speech. It may be related but especially as an adult I don't retain any memories of dreams etc (I assume I have them?).
Its caused me a few issues in my chosen field as being able to visualise stuff as a geologist is kinda handy. I just sketch stuff a lot.
Weirdly I do have an really really good sense of directions / spatial mapping but its all I guess instinctive? as I'm absolutely terrible at explaining a route.
I do have an active internal monologue though, so that's something.
@redthunder it was more Levis 501 style in my mind's eye, but close enough 😀
What generator did you use for that btw?
I had a strange dream last night where I went to a shopping mall but it was just a single narrow corridor crammed with little stalls selling knick-knacks and it zig-zagged around up and down stairs so I kept getting lost then I realized I had to meet someone at the food court but when I got there, it wasn't a food court, it was a massage parlour and Rudy Giuliani was there wearing nothing but tighty-whitey undies. I can't get the image out of my head, how do I make it stop?
I wonder what an aphantasic would see or experience if given a psychedelic drug, feelings rather than images?
Only the deviants can’t 😉
Oh well, that's me on the wrong side again! Nope, no images here.
I can imagine lots of things but always 'narrated' and have a permanent inner monologue running. In addition, I have very vivid dreams that do contain stark, clear images, 'video reels', stories etc, so it must be a conscious vs unconscious thing for me.
Yes , everyone can cant they?
At my practice we've got some architects working on designing a revision of our satellite practice. They bought some plans for us to see some of the solutions they've come up with so far. One of the GP partners could not get her head around the drawings at all, and we had to make some crude 3d versions on the white board so she could get an idea, and even then she struggled. Architects are going to do all future plans as 3d models to make it clearer.
I always do well with the bits of IQ tests that ask you how you'd rotate a shape to fit in a hole, or which shape matches another or is its opposite if they're rotated differentially on a plane. I pretty much always do badly on any bits of the test that rely on applied mathematics.
How strange, i've just looked up the apple test and low and behold I can't "see" an apple. Show me a 2D technical drawing and I can imagine it, a map i can imagine the landscape.
I can imagine lots of things but always ‘narrated’ and have a permanent inner monologue running.
A sort of tangent really, in inner monologue terms. I heard something interesting discussed about 'mental chatter' in relation to self criticism and general happiness - the telling off you give yourself when you make mistakes or things go wrong.
It was to do with changing 'I' to 'you' in reference to yourself when that happens. So instead of your internal monologue saying 'I can't believed I poured all that cyanide into the canal - I'm such an idiot' you'll generally live a happier life if you try to change that to saying to yourself "I can't believe you poured all that cyanide into the canal - you're such an idiot'. You're still aiming that criticism at yourself so it's a sort of trivial difference - you're still an idiot and you know you are. But somehow that distancing to 'you' makes a big difference. Thats quite an easy thing to suggest but if course those moments of self criticism happen in times of surprise, stress, fear, shock and so on so I'm not sure how easy an thing it would be to consciously apply that change.
Its an odd aspect of your internal monologue becuase I don't think you congratulate yourself in that way - you're never verbally telling yourself that you're getting things right, doing things well, in the same conversational way, it seems only to be a reflex to things going wrong.
I've always recognised that I'm fortunate to be quite robust mentally, carry stress well in particular, and I know thats luck and that its just my luck up to now and not my luck tomorrow or next week or next year. But when I heard that article it struck me that I always instinctively say/hear 'you' in those situations and I think I always have done.
So sorry about the whole canal poisoning thing - but you'll be happy to know I'm over it.
I realised a little while ago that I have aphantasia, I shut my eyes and there's just black. I don't think in images, but I can remember things very clearly and describe details, so my brain is storing this information, but not showing it to me.
I do dream in images, but that's a different bit of the brain
Re drugs - yep it was feelings rather than hallucinations. Tbh psychedelics were never a great experience for me
I also don't have an inner monologue, I don't think in words, more like feelings. I read in words and if I know the person's voice I read it in that. Having met binners once all his posts I read are in his voice. My generic reading voice isn't my own accent though.
All this doesn't mean I'm not creative, or technical. I can take things apart and put them back together quite easily. I can draw things from memory, even if I can't visualise it
Yep, I can also visualise stress/strain/load paths in objects and fluid dynamics as cavitations play a large part in my industry.
Can't play the triangle or maracas
The two can sort of balance each other out so instead of having a video you can have a step by step guide of what you want to do.
I'm either lucky or cursed, i get a full visual image AND an internal dialogue telling me whats going on. Recently spent a couple of hours trying to explain the circular nature of our next gen HMI and how we should crosslink between related pages without going up and then back down the structure. I was explaining it to the guy who designed the framework... Though i do come from a pure hardware background, and very complicated hardware at that!
my maths is poor.
Compared to my colleagues, mine is poor too. I made sure to get to a level where other people do the maths for me as soon as possible. (2 years)
I'm also terrible at languages (my own and others) and music, art stuff.
A good friend of mine has no internal dialogue AND no images either... Which i find weird.
As an illustrator, if someone gives me a brief then I sit and have a think about it for a bit and by the time I start the actual physical act of drawing it, I’ve already got a really clear picture in my head of exactly what it will look like when It’s finished, even if it’s quite abstract.
As a graphic designer I work with clients who can’t even visualise changing a typeface on something without you actually having to physically do it and show them
It baffles me as I visualise everything so clearly, but then I remember that I’m useless at anything else other than playing with crayons.
I can visualise things, but I think it's quite weak, it feels easily overpowered by actual visual stimulus, even if that's what you see when your eyes are closed in a dark room.
I have Aphantasia to, I can't really visualise things apart from (sometimes) fleeting parts of an image (and if I try and focus on that and make it into a complete image it just goes away)
I find it incredible and fascinating how differently we all think.
At risk of going off on a tangent, does anybody else have synethesia? In my head, letters and words all have different colours (totally useless, but it makes books look pretty). I assumed everyone else saw words like this and it wasn't until I was about 35 that I found that everyone I know sees black letters on a page instead.
Reading about it it's not uncommon and lots of musicians see colours when they hear music which helps them compose. Far more useful than me thinking the letter 'T' is a nice shade of blue!
I can sort of imagine things, but not clearly, and certainly not well enough to be able to ‘see’ an image ‘projected’ onto a piece of paper and draw it. I am good at technical drawing, I’m almost obsessive about accuracy, so when I was working in print and publishing it was a major benefit.
I’m fairly good at working out answers to issues with mechanical items, and I do have long internal monologues as well.
I have a terrible memory for names and languages, but I can recognise someone from years ago.
I wonder what an aphantasic would see or experience if given a psychedelic drug, feelings rather than images?
That’s an odd one, I was given a small lump of resin to chew because I wouldn’t smoke it mixed with tobacco, and I was looking through a big book on the works of Gaudi in Barcelona, and I was seeing extraordinary things in some of the photos, one of the ceramic covered walls in Parc Guell became a picture of an African savanna with one of those flat-topped acacia trees with some giraffes, and a Masai warrior in the foreground holding a spear! I can still see it now, nearly forty years later. Go figure, as they say. *shrugs*
I think some of you need to read 'born on a blue day'
Its proper weird how the brain works. My other word mental trick which if its related to the Aphantasia I have no idea is that i'm a REALLY fast reader, like twice/three times faster than pretty much anyone I have ever met. Was a issue at school especially when we did group or class reading and the teachers were convinced I wasn't reading at all.
The clients binners mentions who wouldnt be able to visualise a new typeface. That would 100% be me. Unless I can actually see it in front of me it might as well just be guesswork.
I can see things in my mind, not brilliantly, can just about memorise a map and read it in my head for a short bike ride.
I wonder what an aphantasic would see or experience if given a psychedelic drug, feelings rather than images?
They can still see out of their eyes so I suspect the visual experience would be broadly similar. I assume the psychedelic would alter their thoughts in the same way as a hyperphantasic would experience, but it wouldn't alter the images in their mind because there might not be any.
Aspie. nuff said.
Though I'm kind of shocked that people cant see objects in 3D
What about very very long term memory ? as in can you picture a room in a house or street from 40 whatever years back and then navigate around it ?
So many can think pics in 3D. but what about 4D
It seems from the apple test that I'm borderline aphantastic. It explains a few things.
I find it extremely hard to picture landscapes and other physical things described in books which is frustrating.
What about very very long term memory ? as in can you picture a room in a house or street from 40 whatever years back and then navigate around it ?
But I have a very strong memory for things like this. I don't need to close my eyes to do it at all.
I cannot see things in my head, even faces of people I know really well - they just don't appear although I'll recognise them the instant I see them. I'm an architectural technician, if someone rings up from site and tries to explain a problem they are having I just wont be able to see it. I need a photo or even better a site visit.
I struggle with driving in unfamiliar places unless I have sat nav running as I can only recall one or maybe two direction steps from a printed guide or a map. Even if someone asks me directions to somewhere I know really well I'll have to concentrate really hard to visualise the route in my head. I'd usually have to travel through it step by step with my eyes shut until I get where they want to go!
Blimey I sound like a right disaster!
That apple test... Like can people really properly 'see' the apple? That's mind blowing to me really. I think my inner monologue is pretty much yeah its an apple, trust me..... but nowt visual in the slightest.
The long term memory is weird. I couldnt picture anything about where I grew up but I could write down a description and I can still find my way around the woods I grew up in pretty much without trying.
I can only recall one or maybe two direction steps from a printed guide or a map.
I almost used an entire phone battery yesterday trying to use Trailforks riding in unfamiliar territory. I was constantly checking the directions I couldn't memorise.
Yes, I've done that as well!
I find this fascinating
No, in short - I can't disassemble or deconstruct or indeed construct things in my head and I struggle with number sequences also as in I forget where I 'got to' if I'm doing mental arithmetic
I can see things that I'm familiar with though so very strong memories I guess, and I can recollect from a very early age and replay moments, so feelings, sights, sometimes smell and what was said (I have memories from my 1st birthday)
As for internal dialogue, it's not so much a dialogue but a conversation but two way, bit devils advocate kind of thing like I'm talking to someone else (you, not I) - think this comes from when I used to run through what lessons I'd have on a given day (what are you doing today, I have maths, English etc...) that does feel weird and I've always been pretty sure it's just me...
I can't see things in my mind, I just get a vague understanding (and I think that that's just black & white, I can't visualise colour either). On the apple test I'm a 4-5.
I've struggled with mental health conditions all my life and assumed that it was just another aspect of a dysfunctional (and medicated) mind. I also have a shockingly bad memory and ability to retain things (although I'm not unintelligent & quite a deep thinker I simply don't retain facts).
I was shocked to learn that some people don’t think in words! Like my entire thought process is basically a narration.
My thought processes are almost totally verbal to the point of not being able to quieten it down (some of my mind's quietest times are when I'm out on my bike).
Yes, always been able to do it as you describe. I also can take flat images at different angles and translate those into 3-D ‘images’ in my head.
Me too. My ‘minds eye’ is like a CAD programme..I can rotate, zoom, and explode technical drawings in my mind.
I can also ‘mock up’ 3d models, and ‘test them out’ in my mind too.
Like many, however, I’m rubbish with other languages, and can’t draw or do music!
DrP
I almost used an entire phone battery yesterday trying to use Trailforks riding in unfamiliar territory. I was constantly checking the directions I couldn’t memorise.
That's a skill that comes and goes if you work on it (or don't!).
I used to have a reasonably photographic memory for maps. Not completely but I always had a very good sense of direction. I spent years as a kid in the front seat of the car doing map reading for my Mum as she drove us on holidays (remember map reading...?!) and then in teenage / early 20's doing route plotting on OS maps. I love maps. Used to be able to name about 200 of the London tube stations on a blank map and I've done blank street maps, filling in the street names. London especially. Years of commuting and couriering in London in the 90's.
That skill is definitely far less refined now that I rely on Google Maps, a Garmin GPS cycle computer and tools like Strava. It's very much a use-it-or-lose-it thing. Or it is for me at least. I'm still not bad at navigating by stars although the second I don't recognise something, I just reach for Google SkyMap rather than try and work it out.
I remember being in the cadets at school on night nav exercises (way before GPS / smartphones etc) and just knowing the way immediately and being constantly frustrated by other kids who were barely able to find their arse with both hands.
I think some of you need to read ‘born on a blue day’
Brains are weird. For me numbers also have shapes 🙂
is that i’m a REALLY fast reader, like twice/three times faster than pretty much anyone I have ever met.
Me too. I can read a light novel at 100+ pages an hour. Couple of hours to read a book. I have a visual memory so I don't think the two are linked
I can’t visualise things in my mind at all and don’t have much in the way of memories of events or places. No issues hallucinating when younger though but my eyes were open at the time. I’m also good at remembering facts, figures, lyrics and useless information. Love reading but don’t really visualise what I’m reading. Just like a good story.
I have a visual memory so I don’t think the two are linked
Do you spell by the letters or the shape of the word? If you asked me to spell something I would need to picture the word and work out the letters that fit the shape.
Interesting thread! I teach undergraduate chemistry, where most representations of molecules (in textbooks, research papers, written on whiteboards etc) are in 2D, even though they are 3D objects. In many cases the 2D representation is sufficient, but where it becomes important to relate the written 2D structure to the actual 3D shape of a molecule, I’d say that around 20-30% (an estimate from my experience of small group teaching) find this process really challenging. We encourage the use of model kits to help with this problem (and they are still allowed in some of our exams).
I am very poor at spelling and often have to see it written to know if the spelling is right or wrong. I think I see letters not shapes for words tho
That’s a skill that comes and goes if you work on it (or don’t!).
I used to have a reasonably photographic memory for maps. Not completely but I always had a very good sense of direction. I spent years as a kid in the front seat of the car doing map reading for my Mum as she drove us on holidays (remember map reading…?!)
I did night rally navigation in my 20s. Quite high pressure, but I enjoyed that. The thing is you're looking at the map constantly so it's easy.
another similar one. Do you know where north is? I have to or I get all twitchy and most of the time I do. I find it incomprehensible that people do not do this or know which way is north
No idea where north is. I’d love to be able to visualise stuff in the way some of you describe. It sounds great.
I'd like to be able to spell and i would love a little artistic ability. You dont get everything. Some. of these things seem almost mutually exclusive. One is that if you can do mental arithmetic you cannot tell left from right instinctively. About a 90 % correlation I believe.
Brains are weird
I’d like to be able to spell and i would love a little artistic ability. You dont get everything. Some. of these things seem almost mutually exclusive. One is that if you can do mental arithmetic you cannot tell left from right instinctively. About a 90 % correlation I believe.
You. Are. Chrisopher, walken. And...
..I claim? my. £5.
Edit:
But too be fair, I have to edit my posts 9 times out of ten for spelling/punctuation errors...it's not that I can't spell, it's that I try to rush my typing and have to go back and correct it. I can't seem to just slow down and type properly in the first place.
.
I did the Apple test - a big fat 5…..
Do you know where north is? I have to or I get all twitchy and most of the time I do. I find it incomprehensible that people do not do this or know which way is north
Always. Can find it in seconds by half a dozen different methods, day or night.
The one time I got confused was when I was in Australia where obviously the sun is not in the south at midday, it's in the ****ing north like a devious little ****.
Went wrong once. Was thoroughly mortified by this error.
I can visualise stuff pretty/very well, I can spell pretty well too, as I can 'see' if the word looks correct. However, as I've got older, that skill seems to have faded a little.
The big thing, I've found is that my visualising bit of my brain must use lots of (or increasingly more) Brain CPU - to the point that if I'm driving, I have to avoid any conversation that would involve thinking about 3D space - like 'Hey, do you think we should move the wardrobe into the other corner?' would bring up such a very image of the room in question that I'd find I no longer had brain space to look at the road. Like when people in films look up and have cartoon bubble images of thoughts. So we now have a 'No 3D space conversations in the car (or on the bike)' rule...
As for finding north, TJ, I've always known vaguely where north was in houses I've lived in. However, I only recently worked out the whole arc of things rotating around the pole star thing. Like if I saw the moon or a constellation overhead, even if I could see the pole star, I could never tell you where it would set... (I've worked it out now...)