[Closed] Can someone please tell me why public transport isn't cheaper than driving?

Unfortunatly this tgrrad like many before it has turned into abun fight.

I would love to travel by publictransport but itsjust too expensive. I dont mean personally but when im justifing costs to my business and an astra is £13 a day plusfuel but a train is some randomlymade up price tbe astra has it, even if i would rather take the train.

Sorry for tbe spelling sat in a bar somewhere hot. xx

Ian

Arguing with you or TJ is like arguing with this chap

Equally, we could say the same about some of youse.

Except that we're actually right.

You've not backed up any of your claims with any facts or real solid evidence. We have. I think the facts speak for themselves, quite frankly.

As your figures show most journeys are over 8.7miles

Eh? where do they show that? How have you arived at that conclusion?

Seeing as how a smaller number of much longer daily commute journeys will push the average up, I'd suggest that most journey's could well be [i]below[/i] the average length.

Most people live in places with crap public transport.

Again, where is your [b]evidence[/b] to support such a claim? Seems nothing more than your onion, tbh.

As your figures show most journeys are over 8.7miles

explain to me what the phrase average commute is in excess of 8.7 miles

Elf ,

Your overuse of this space devalues its credibility, why not take a break?

Ian xx

Ooh, and a Merry Christmas to you too, IanW! 🙂

(I have no idea what you're wibbling on about though. Not that I care, mind, you understand...)

[img] [/img]

explain to me what the phrase average commute is in excess of 8.7 miles

As the actress said to the bishop; come again?

Ok so, from the Office for National Statistics, and DoT:

How far do people travel to work?
• The average length of a commuting trip increased by 6%, from 8.2 miles in 1995/97 to 8.7 miles in 2005.
• Men travel 10.5 miles to work on average, 67% further than women (6.3 miles).
• People living in the most rural areas travel furthest to work on average (11.3 miles), while those in major cities outside London travel the shortest distance on average (6.5 miles). London residents travel 8.0 miles.
• People from households in the highest income quintile travel more than twice as far to work on average (12.3 miles) as those in the lowest income quintile (5.8 miles).
• The average length of a business trip is 19.4 miles.
So, an awful lot of people don't travel more than a few miles in to work, according to this data. Within cycling distance, for sure, for a lot of them. And Certainly within bus/train/tube etc distance.

Sos sorry, but the 'I need my car' argument is an invalid one, in most cases.

See? Told you I was right...

Elf, do you actual bother to read what you post, I suggest next time you actually read what you are posting, it i quite clear that the average commute in 2005 is 8.7miles. The average! Of course there is the minor detail of what they mean by average, the mode, the median, who knows, the assumption i suspect they are relying upon is that the distance travelled by the 50% percentile is 8.7miles. per direction per day. I could make a further point that the average time is 45mins which supports the 8.7 being each way and not a daily total.

Most people live in places with crap public transport.

I disagree based on the places I've lived in and used the public transport of. I think you're just expecting too much from public transport. It will not in most instances be more convenient than a car, unless you live in a large city. Thats WHY large cities have better public transport.

Having said that, I'm happy with the service I get here in Salisbury. I'm 5 miles from the city and pay £12 a week for a bus pass that'll get me plenty of places that are a similar distance away. When I was fit it was irrelevant anyway as I rode everywhere.

I see too many people on here seemingly complaining that there isn't a bus that will take them from their house to a mate 8 miles away, at 9pm, for 50 pence and the like. And then claiming that makes public transport crap!

Just had a day out in York. Cost £12 to park next to the train station for 6 hours. Train tickets are about £7 each return (to our station just outside Harrogate that has free parking). Allowing for fuel costs and wear & tear I reckon public transport works out cheaper by quite a bit.

Elf, do you actual bother to read what you post

Sometimes... 🙂

Of course there is the minor detail of what they mean by average, the mode, the median, who knows

Ah I see what you're getting at now you din't make it all that clear to be fair.

I'm assuming that it's an overall [i]mean[/i] average. But as you quite rightly say, who knows?

I woon't have thought that the majority of journeys fell above the average figure though.

I would say though that if it is an absolute mean average then some journeys will be over wunundred miles each way, but only a tiny fraction, and many many journeys will be very short maybe even under a mile. I think it's reasonable to assume such a thing.

Tagliatelli with garlicky chicken, mushrooms and broccoli....

It's Congestion Charge Exempt! 🙂

Elf your figures show that the average journey time is 8.7 miles and 45 mins in length.

They also show that outside of London 76% of journeys are by car. That alone tells you something.

I could tell you how it isn't possible for me to get to work by bus given my shift patterns or my wife either but you would just reply that is just 1 case.

Proving the lack of available public transport across the rest of the UK excluding the capitals where you and TJ both reside isn't simple. Proving the lack of existence of something is always more difficult, ask the chap I pictured!

We all agree that lazy people use their cars inappropriately but to say that most of them could do without them entirely is blinkered.

which is why you carry on reading Elf and you will see mention of distance by Quintile. the top 20% of the population by income commute an average 12.3 miles and the lowest 20% commute 5.8miles. and if you read a bit more the average rural commute is 11.3 miles.

Do you see a pattern here, most people travel stupid distances to get to work. The old method of living in tied cottages has long gone. The days of a town all being employed by the steel works or coal mine are long dead. You go where you can get work, our whole society is being developed as car dependent.

Why are shopping centres not built near housing? why are business parks not near housing? each exists in its own little planning zone, but no thought goes in to how you get from one to the other.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/sep/02/sciencenews.transportintheuk

suggests that quality of life in cities might not be all that it is cracked up to be if those with the most money are those that travel furthest, 800,000 traveling more than 30miles each way.

Don't get me wrong i think it is a stupid way to spend your life, and i don't think it is sustainable in the medium term with the rising cost of living.

Its quite simple why would you want to go on a bus when you can afford and run a car! End off. Get in car drive to work. Or go catch a a bus at 5am I know when I used to have to be in work for around 5.30am a bus was not even an option as there simply wasn't any at that time. As for cycling to work well lets just say someone cycling even 5 miles and then polishing a seat with there ass for 8 hours after cycling in. is a bit different from say some person cycling in and then having to be on there feet 8 hours a day in a warehouse or a job of that ilk.

Or even worse 12 hours in a steel works than a nice ride back of god knows how many miles. I suppose if you work in an office like the masses do on here, then a nice commute home is the only thing you do all day that involves any other exercise than climbing to the Tea caddy every 30 minutes.

So telling someone they should catch a train or go on a bus when they work daft hours doesn't cut the mustard. even less so when you mention cycling to work. Not to mention a lot of places at work you can't even find anywhere to put your bike. So then its going to get nicked you just know that.

The fact the tax payer / government subsidise the rail network to the tune of £5-6 Billion a year makes me sad!! 😐

The fact the tax payer / government subsidise the rail network to the tune of £5-6 Billion a year makes me sad!!

why?

Roads are subsidised, planes are subsidised why shouldn't trains

not really comparable thought are they?

my personal experience with Merseyrail & Virgin on the west coast mainline, neither are that bad, but neither are better than driving... and neither are cheaper, so unless its work, I drive!

Its quite simple why would you want to go on a bus when you can afford and run a car!

I can use the bus when pished. I can browse the net, read a paper, make a phone call. I can relax and take in the world outside, or the view inside 😉 I do actually hate driving as well, which is a big factor for me. When I was riding there wasn't a massive difference between cycling and driving to work. The bus takes about 20 minutes longer because there's a nice walk at either end. I chose to live within 5 miles of work and near bus routes though. Other people don't make those choices then insist public transport doesn't fit their needs.

I can afford a car, but like you and everyone else on here funds are not limitless, I just choose to spend that money on other things. Last year I went here:

[img] [/img]

I could get to work (5 miles away) for £10 a week on the bus (weekly ticket) or train (subsidized line) if I didnt already have a free pass from work but I tend to use the car or ride in on earlies as it gives me an extra 10 mins in bed.

I also hardly ever drive outside of work anymore and find days going out on days off far more relaxing when my eyes are not tied to the road.

If the car wasnt there I would happily use PT/cycle full time, OH won't give up the car though.

Daft thing is that between my parents, who live next door, and ourselves we have two cars doing less than 5k a year total.

seth-enslow666 - Member

Its quite simple why would you want to go on a bus when you can afford and run a car!

Sleep. Read. Don't have to find a parking space.

[img] [/img]

It's loads cheaper than driving if you have the inclination to make the switch..

there is some herbert on here who swears he did a spreadsheet and compared the price difference between the two and factored in everything up to and including rate of wear on wheel bearings during the lifespan of his car offset against the chances of getting a seat on the train during rush hour while the edinburgh fringe festival is on.. but he is an habitual petrolhead and in all likelihood a car obsessed fantasist..

do it.. sell your car.. they are crap.. seriously

[img] [/img]

RichPenny- is that Cradle Mountain?

They also show that outside of London 76% of journeys are by car. That alone tells you something.

It does, but it's not that you need a car.

And all the people here highlighting the exceptions and extremes doesn't change the fact that [i]most[/i] people- not [i]every single person in the country[/i] could get by quite well without their cars. As somebody else said you just need to accept that there won't be a bus going past your front door every 5 minutes 24 hrs a day and adjust accordingly.

most people- not every single person in the country could get by quite well without their cars

I should point out that if I exclude long trips, I've done far more transportation mileage on my bike than in my car in the last couple of months.

p.s. has anybody else spotted the silent "not" in the Tower Hamlets Assertion?

how exactly am I supposed to transport a 6.8m long kayak to the Lake District by public transport?

You wouldn't. If I wanted to go kayaking in the lakes I'd hire one when I got there. Of course it's limiting in terms of moving large objects, I find that frustrating sometimes. But then I think of Cradle Mountain 😉

Some people addressed the OP. I did when I pointed out that I can travel on a bus for less than the cost of using a car.

aracer - indeed irrelevant to the original point but a separate point made in response to those who claim they need a car and the majority of people in the country need a car as they don't have access to public transport

how exactly am I supposed to transport a 6.8m long kayak to the Lake District by public transport?

Or hire a vehicle when you need to do that

If I wanted to go kayaking in the lakes I'd hire one when I got there

Or hire a vehicle when you need to do that

still be cheaper 🙂 or it would be if you paid the true cost of private motoring 🙂
*runs away*

would a hire car company be happy for you to put a rack on the roof?

Thats an issue with hire cars - no roofracks.

would a hire car company be happy for you to put a rack on the roof?

How would they know?

well they seem to know about every scuff and charge you for it, so i suspect they would know and charge you accordingly.

...though it was a nice ploy to get me and TJ to argue the opposite sides!

well they seem to know about every scuff and charge you for it, so i suspect they would know and charge you accordingly

(IME and that of others I've heard from they don't)

aracer, i don't know how they would know, just hire car companies have an uncanny knack of noticing things.

Anyway back to the point, so if you want to get something from a to b that won't fit in a car, such as a kayak, you can't get a hire car because you can't fit a rack to carry it?

It is amazing what you can get on public transport - I know a chap who took a windsurfer on the tube in London

Use some imagination
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5038/5877305321_2fe4e631de_b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5038/5877305321_2fe4e631de_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/marmotfotos/5877305321/ ]0609_0369 copy[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/marmotfotos/ ]marmotfotos[/url], on Flickr

I have taken a tandem on a bus - but that was in France.

Anyway back to the point, so if you want to get something from a to b that won't fit in a car, such as a kayak, you can't get a hire car because you can't fit a rack to carry it?

Not that I'm sure it really was back to the point 😉

Or you can, as I and several other people I've heard from have. Of course your experience of not trying to put a roofrack on a hire car clearly trumps that.

No i didn't try and put a rack on the car, i put the bike in the car, and they complained, colleagues had dents appear and got stuffed for that.

I put bikes in hire cars all the time

No i didn't try and put a rack on the car, i put the bike in the car, and they complained, colleagues had dents appear and got stuffed for that

dare I suggest those of us who [b]need[/b] cars to support our lifestyle - how exactly am I supposed to transport a 6.8m long kayak to the Lake District by public transport?

You don't 'need' to transport owt. You just 'want' to. Very different. You may think you 'need' to, but you are of course wrong.

You have the [i]luxury[/i] of owning a car and being able to transport your canoe to wherever it is you want to paddle it. You won't die if you can't do what you want to do though, will you?

Unfortunately there aren't a huge number of racing double sea kayaks available for hire in the Lake District

Diddums. Why would you 'need' a SEA canoe in the LAKE District though? I've done ok in an inflatable dinghy bought from the souvenir shop. Maybe that's cos I'm just awsum though.

Elf now you are losing it big style! I mean so why should someone who goes to work and works hard not have things? I mean I don't need a lot of things. I could live in a bedsit and survive on two slices of toast a day. But I don't want to and so don't Millions of other people thank you very much. This is a first world country not the deepest part of Vietnam! Cars are great things they open up new hobbies and social aspects. The wheel as been invented and your never going to be able to go back.

If you choose to live without a car that's cool but If you can afford one why would you not have one! If I could afford a fridge why would I not have one or a washing machine, or TV. I mean if you can't afford one because its a drain on your income fair enough or if you are a hippy tree huger who eats lettuce again fair enough. Those are valid reason for not having one. But to say you don't have to do things like sports, hobbies, social etc Then not have a car to justify you can live without one seems a bit daft to me.

I'd already admitted it's a lifestyle choice to go kayaking - just the same as most* people on here go mountain biking as a lifestyle choice. Or do you think your lifestyle choice is more important than mine? Meanwhile I don't suppose you'd have got on very well in your inflatable in the middle of a lake getting hit by two big washes from steamers coming at you from different directions at the same time. Even your awesomeness might not have been up to that. Not to mention that you can get some pretty wild conditions on 9 mile long lakes. I'm guessing that stuck in that there Lahndahn you're not that up on the geography of far away places like the Lake District either - it does have rather a lot of coastline you can go sea kayaking from!

Of course the Lake District isn't the only place I go kayaking - really, really wouldn't fancy being out in an inflatable in some of the conditions I've been out in recently. Face it, elf, the Tower Hamlets Assertion fails - you're wrong.

* very hesitant to suggest all

The fact the tax payer / government subsidise the rail network to the tune of £5-6 Billion a year makes me sad!

Makes me sad to, I've never understood why 'for profit' companies get subsidised.

Too much to read up there, so I'm not sure where the posts gone. However myself and Mrs O lived in cities until our late twenties and neither of us needed cars (London & Leeds) Since moving out into a Bedfordshire town we need a car each. Public transport here is random and expensive and anyone using the public transport system here needs a car or a car driver as back up on an almost daily basis.
And neither of us work nine to five, my wife can get a bus to work but not one back.

I live fairly close to my office (probably closer than most on here who're advocating moving closer to work) however one thing I've never done so far is commute those 3.5 miles by public transport. The reason is that I'd have to take two buses plus still have to walk a fair distance at one end, making it significantly slower than most other methods available. Taking the bus isn't even that cheap, working out at 37p per mile. That's cheaper than the 46p per mile my not exactly fuel efficient car costs to run, but not cheap enough for the saving to be worthwhile given the time it'd cost me (30-40 minutes per day at least).

I don't always drive - I cycle sometimes, occasionally run in and also have walked on occasion.

Question for TJ, Elf etc. Do you enjoy driving? I don't mean tolerate; I mean really genuinely [i]enjoy [/i]it. I do. I'm lucky in that I don't have a tedious commute sat in traffic. Most of my driving is on country A and B roads with fab views. I enjoy accelerating out of a sweeping bend or even just cruising through the Derbyshire Dales. I often get as much pleasure out of it as riding my bike. Driving 4 hours to Edinburgh through those fab hills? Love it. What's not to like?*

My family has been down to 1 car for the last month. Have we "needed" the second car? Nope, we've managed alright. I'm usually late for work every time the kids get walked to nursery, but that's a small price to pay for a fab stroll with my kids in the morning. However I'm looking forward to getting a second car again just like I enjoy having more than one bike. If public transport was cheaper and easier I'd still own a car because it is more FUN 😀

* traffic jams exempt

that's a small price to pay for a fab stroll with my kids in the morning.

haha, wait until about middle of October, won't be so fab then! Still, well done. 😀 Made a huge difference financially when we went down from 2 to 1 car for very little practical bother, particularly when mrs j also started riding to work. (again, buses and nursing/shift work not really compatible outside really big cities: unless you live right in the city centre)

wait until about middle of October, won't be so fab then!

October will be OK, it will be dreary dull and wet November - officially the most miserable month ever - that will test my resolve. Can't wait 😕

If you choose to live without a car that's cool but If you can afford one why would you not have one! If I could afford a fridge why would I not have one or a washing machine, or TV. I mean if you can't afford one because its a drain on your income fair enough

It's a drain on your income too, you just accept it as a given like paying the mortgage. I don't accept it and traded the inconvenience of not having a car for a month in Australia. I'm happy with that trade.

To examine your examples, owning a fridge has cost me maybe £200 quid over 10 years plus electric. Cost/benefit means owning one is utterly sensible. Washing Mashine would be maybe £500, equally sensible. I don't have a TV, but a big monitor is c. £300, worth it for me. A car over 10 years will be what, £20k? Not worth it for me, I prefer to spend that money on other things.

So what's the cost of public transport over 10 years?

Twelve pounds and thirty-two pence.

Hands up who thinks elf is wrong.

aracer - In my case I believe I have saved a thjousand or two a year for 30 years. (at todays prices) thats money worth having

I certainly spend less on public transport, hire cars and taxis that owning a car would cost me. No doubt at all.