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Hora - The other drawback to your car is people constantly stopping you and booking an appointment to get their roots done
The most crazy thing about trains is the pricing structure.
I need to travel from Beeston (near Nottingham) to Cardiff in a few weeks time. The cost is £61.70 return which in its self is extortionate (double driving given I have to pay the car's fixed costs anyway) but that isn't the worst bit.
The route from Beeston to Cardiff involves a change in Derby. The price from Derby to Cardif is £61.90.
So the train company has paid me 20p to travel 20% of the journey. IN this case I'm happy would but would be pretty pissed off if it were the other way round.
jfletch - MemberThe most crazy thing about trains is the pricing structure.
Indeed- deliberately confusing so that one defaults to a ticket that is not actually the cheapest- cheapest tickets are often 'hidden' in the screen menus.... Again, train companies squeezing the boundaries of their pricing contracts and regulators powerless or too weak to enforce
I looked at popping down to Birmingham for the day from Manchester.
Circa £100 on a Sat. Absolutely mental.
Circa £100 on a Sat. Absolutely mental.
eh? off peak?
I looked at popping down to Birmingham for the day from Manchester.Circa £100 on a Sat. Absolutely mental.
That's not right - for 3.5 people it might be £100, or to go in first class?
Manchester to Birmingham off peak return is £31. You can use that any time on a Saturday (or come back any off peak time within the next month). You can buy that on the day, and don't have to travel on any particular train back as long as it is within the off peak time (which is all day on a saturday).
It is worth knowing that if you go to http://nationalrail.co.uk, you can look up tickets to find out what is cheapest. There are obviously some dodgy websites out there that people get caught out by, or something. People are always quoting ridiculous figures for tickets, when a quick internet lookup would get you them for way less.
Offpeak return £32
^ good example of cheeky pricing
50 p a mile is the total cost roughly as worked out by the RAC - buying from new and doing 10 000 miles a year.
You'd have to either have more money than sense or be a ****ing moron to buy from new, or even nearly new, IMO. 13p/mile is my current diesel costs, fixed costs (MOT, tax, insurance, oil changes, basic repairs etc) come to 6-7p/mile and these generally reduce with increased milage obviously. Depreciation is practically zero, as it's way past the curve and onto the plateau.
There's just no question in it, public transport is vastly overpriced and not worth it either for single or multiple passengers in any case I've had to investigate. But then I do pick my car for economy and don't park in central london, thank god. When I commuted into Liverpool the speed was about comparable despite the train journey being quick (because of the distance between destinations and train stations) but cycling was a tad faster if going at rush hour.
My rules would suggest cycle, then car, then public transport.
Confused, so only I'm going and posting the other two people?
Like I said, better to drive there. Unless you live next to the main line station its a royal PITA.
Pity as it'd feel abit different and abit of an adventure plus I could have a couple of glasses of wine before coming back if we'd got the train.
coffeking - all my local journeys and long train journeys are cheaper by train. Usually quicker as well
The very fact that it's not easy to find the lowest price makes it a huge issue IMHO. Why aren't rail companies being penalized for this?
The rules are bent far too far in favour of private corporations and there desperately needs to be a refocus in favour of the travelling and commuting public.
coffeking - all my local journeys and long train journeys are cheaper by train. Usually quicker as well
I'm not denying some may be, it's location specific, but you're always banging on about how it's cheaper and faster, when it's very much location specific and never has been for me in a few places of living. This is especially compounded when you "have" to have a car for other duties - i.e. I kitesurf, I need to get to beaches to do it, public transport doesn't cover such events, if I have the car for that duty then it automatically makes more sense to drive everywhere instead of use the train as the fixed costs need sharing out or it'd almost be as pricey as hiring.
it is ridiculous . as an example (buses) a return from devizes to swindon (around 20 miles) about £4.50 (i think?has been a while since i have been on a bus).return devizes/melksham (roughly 14 miles) over £6.00! (this is the devizes/bath bus) wtf! i'm scared to think how much it will cost to go to bath (return) 😯
I love train travel and many of my journeys would be quick and easy.. but it takes half an hour to get to the station. Crap choice of house, in many ways...
Didnt National Express put up its Bus ticket prices blaming 'fuel prices'?
Yet they also have their diesel duty subsidised by the Government by a large portion.
I'm sick of paying £400 a month for a train that's regularly late, frequently overcrowded, has been subject to timetable cuts so as to encourage people to fork out even more for a High Speed alternative that saves 2mins and goes to the wrong station not to mention the smell of pee that permeates from the lavatories.
I'm so angry about it that I want to see something done, or at the very least see fares cut.
at the very least see fares cut.
How's that going to help?
Because I'm fed up of being treated like a cash cow and paying the highest fares in the whole of Europe.
Rail travel needs to be taken more seriously if we want to prompt people to leave their cars at home, incrementally ratcheting up fares isn't the way to do it.
I travel to London a fair bit on business and usually get the train. I do that primarily because it's more relaxing - not because it's faster or cheaper (it's debateable whether it's actually either).
My car costs £0.46 per mile to run (it's a thirsty V6 petrol but doesn't depreciate all that much now) and my wife's little Jazz is about £0.30. Given my train ticket is usually about £200 (but sometimes as much as £300) then it's slightly cheaper if I take my wife's car (by the time I add in mileage to the train station, parking and taxis) even if I go by myself. Given there are usually two of us travelling then it's even cheaper if I were to take the two of us in my own gas-guzzling car.
Door-to-door I can drive from my house to our London office in 6 hours without particularily pushing it, which is pretty much exactly the same as it takes by train with the faffing at either end factored in. Our office is in the centre of London so it's not all that far from the train station. For our customers that are further out the car is likely to be substantially faster. I don't usually take my car though, as driving to London and back for a one or two day trip would be mental, but the last time I did one of our sales guys travelled down by train to attend the same meeting as me. He left his house a bit earlier than I left mine but I was there a good bit before him - with time to kill before picking him up at the train station in fact.
On the way back I find the car gains time due to flexibility as well - with the train I leave a margin for getting to the station and for meetings running on. With the car I just start heading home as soon as I finish.
For pretty much anywhere north of London I find it substantially quicker to use the car, which is what I do unless it's to somewhere like York that's close to a mainline station on the route from Edinburgh.
Rail travel needs to be taken more seriously.
But what's lowering fares going to do? Overcrowding is already a huge problem, so you can't get MORE people on peak time trains. Passenger numbers are their highest ever afaik and have been rising for years. Can't really lay on more trains, cos the network is full.
Cutting fares on the other hand WILL reduce revenues, which will make services even worse.
What we need is a massive programme of govt investment followed by permanent subsidies. Would you vote for that? Would your neighbours?
I bloody well would but I think I am in the minority.
Edit - rechecked - I had checked saturday fares weekday is more
Double edit - nope - you canget a £114 fare not booking ahead that would have you in london all afternoon ad the train takes under 4.5 hrs - you do weel to drive a car 400 miles in 6 hrs and do badly to spend 1.5 hrs faffing each end
200 - 300 to london? first class I assume? Or lack of flexibility?
Lack of flexibility - I need to get the first train out (and even then about 11am is the earliest meeting I can schedule) and one of the last couple of trains back. The only way to avoid that is to get a train down the night before, but that adds another £160 for a hotel room and, obviously, a lot of time. I occasionally travel first class but only when it's the same price or cheaper than standard fares (which it sometimes is).
can be got for around a£100 day return to have you in london for daytime business meetings
I've had cheaper tickets (but not down to £100 return) but that don't allow the train to be changed. I don't do that anymore because once after a meeting ran on I missed the booked train and had to pay another £160 to get home.
You also live a long way out of town.
I'm 9 miles from Waverley station! Hardly a long way out of town...
It's perhaps also worth pointing out that, even using my own car, I actually make a small profit if I drive as our mileage rate is higher than my car costs to run (although that's not why I tend to drive to most places).
coffeeking - Member50 p a mile is the total cost roughly as worked out by the RAC - buying from new and doing 10 000 miles a year.
You'd have to either have more money than sense or be a **** moron to buy from new, or even nearly new, IMO. 13p/mile is my current diesel costs, fixed costs (MOT, tax, insurance, oil changes, basic repairs etc) come to 6-7p/mile and these generally reduce with increased milage obviously. Depreciation is practically zero, as it's way past the curve and onto the plateau
Your model just ignores the most significant costs of driving. If those costs were not incurred by someone you would not be able to do what you currently do, used cars do not just appear from out of the ether.
coffeking - all my local journeys and long train journeys are cheaper by train. Usually quicker as well
assuming just one person travelling. the moment there's a 2nd person in the car it's not.
Edinburgh / london in under 4.5 hrs? Free wifi, comfy seats, read a book, browse stw, drink beer
platform to platform perhaps. When I used to travel from Putney to Largs, by the time you add in bus to station, train to waterloo, tube (that turns yer snot black) to Euston, hang around a bit (contigency for late train/tube), plus the largs train from Glasgow being so soon after the IC arrival that you can't walk the arrival platform find the departure platform and get yer foot in the door before it closes, so wait another 30mins.
OK car took longer, but then I had flexibility to get about there too.
Of course sometimes it can work the other way. Putney to office in Paris was quicker via 1 bus/1 train/1 Eurostar, than it was via taxi/LHR-CDG/taxi.
Union
Jimmy Knapp was the sole the reason I bought a car. in my 1st job, I could not get to work on time c/o buses. Received official warnings for being late while the repetitive strikes were going on, and they only half accepted mitigating circumstances. I had little choice but to say sod it and buy a car. Oh and then gave my boss a lift to work, since he lived half way there, so we both saved transport costs, and saved Network South East the effort of relieving 2 of us of our hard earned. Plus we got to drool at the McLaren F1 car that one of the bosses there used to drive to work in 🙂
So, in conclusion, it depends!
For me, I often travel Bristol - London off peak. Typical cost is £25 return. It'd cost me more than that in diesel, let alone all the other motoring costs. But if I wanted to walk on at 8.30am on a Monday morning, it'd be a different story.
The lunacy is that the real cost of motoring is heavily subsidised, whilst public transport is not. Its one of the many drawbacks of a democratic system. You have to get selfish people to vote for you, so no one wants to say Ok Mr.Motorist once we factor in all the costs from your driving petrol is going to be £3 a litre or similar. Personally I reckon a good quality realistically priced public transport network would more than compensate for the Clarkson's of this world, but then its not my job on the line.
Regarding the off peak ticket price, how do you know how much it is "normally"? When my kids were at university I booked them off peak tickets routinely, and I don't think I ever got the same price twice. What I do know is that walk up ticket purchases are horrendously expensive even at off peak times. Kin daft IMHO
I'd happily see some of the £16bn that the last government committed us to spend on government IT projects last year scaled back and spent on the rail infrastructure. Actually, I'd quite happy trade a few Eurofighter Typhoons, an aircraft carrier and a nuclear sub for cheaper, better trains.
Unfortunately, commuters are a captive audience and the only voice we've got is our vote.
Your model just ignores the most significant costs of driving. If those costs were not incurred by someone you would not be able to do what you currently do, used cars do not just appear from out of the ether.
agreed.
To a lesser extent, competetive insurance quotes, cheaper parts and repairs for savvy customers such as the "£700 insurance/mot/etc" posters on this thread only really come about because there are so many people that renew each year without shopping around, use main dealers for simple repairs and so on. If everyone paid as little as what some folk on here do for their motoring there is no way the motor industry could sustain itself.
It is an argument that is little better than saying "I live my life on the internet and so always get the cheapest train fares, what's the problem?"
One of the big mistakes of the last labour government was not killing pricvatisation of rail that has cost us so much for a worse service.
if they had announce that the would stop all franchises and buy back everything sold at what it was sold for they would have had a vote winner and no one would have bought any of it anyway.
the nonsense that is the privatised rail system is just stupid.
The nonsense of the ticketing and pricing is stupid
OP
3hrs there & 4.5 hrs back in the train...
is there a tail wind on the way there or is the train heavier on the way back?
One of the big mistakes of the last labour government was not killing pricvatisation of rail that has cost us so much for a worse service.
Agreed. I also believe that there was considerable public support for this too.
People don't seem to be including how much they bought their cars for when working out the costs of driving.
But I suppose this depends where you're coming from- if it's a given that you'd own one anyway I suppose it's a fixed cost. I don't own one, so for me any consideration of public tranpsort vs driving includes how much it would cost me to go out and buy a car, and when looked at like that it doesn't really make much sense.
Only dipped in and out of this but in answer to this
Can someone please tell me why public transport isn't cheaper than driving?
...well it is sometimes...and sometimes it is not. Thankfully we have a choice. I used to have to travel to Edinburgh and Glasgow quite a lot with work. I tried going by 'plane and by train and both journeys were a pain in the backside and took longer than driving. I'd happily pay more to drive up there; quiet(ish) roads and great views with minimal faffing.
Conversely, if I need to go to central London it takes me 25 minutes to drive to a west coast mainline station from where it is 1hr 35mins to Euston. I wouldn't dream of doing that drive.
My conclusion? I believe there are many people like me for whom it is not just about the cost, but the convenience and comfort. I also don't mind driving which helps 🙂
I always check the train tickets before doing journeys tbh.
120 mile journey adult and 2 kids midweek in a months time £227.60
I wonder where we could all fly to for less tbh.
People don't seem to be including how much they bought their cars for when working out the costs of driving.
I was in a Toyota dealership a while ago and I worked out some of the 'great deals' what they really meant on small cars in their showroom.
From my calculations it cost you 10k to run one of their small cars for 3-4yrs.
People don't seem to be including how much they bought their cars for when working out the costs of driving.
I factor in annual depreciation, not the purchase price. I don't include what I'm losing from not having the cash I spent available for other investments though (given that I need a car anyway).
I buy cheap second hand cars that dont really depreciate that much tbh. Buying new is liking burning money IMHO. But for a grand ish get 5-10 years per purchase. Do most maintenance myself
My per mile costs work out around 35p including the cost of the car. The true cost is less than this as I make the assumption that my car is now worth 0 when that's not the reality.
The thing is with cars you see so many people in them on there own. I counted 30 the other day at rush hour time. I got bored and stopped after that! Who wants to be stuck on a train with a great deal of the time a hoard of morons! People want to live out in the sticks for quality of life. They will of course need a car if they do that. Who wants to live in the city or town etc if you can live in the country. What pissed me off is how they moan about the price of petrol going up when they live in such nice areas out of the way. I'm sure a few quid extra to pay to get to work and go to Tescos in the local town is a small price to pay for that luxury!
But yes no one is going to use a train when you can use a car and save money. Even if it was a case of them being equal in price take the car, why take the train! Now maybe if you were saving 30 quid a week by using the train then I could see people going for it. Even more so these days with everyone having to count the coppers at the end of a working week. The simple truth is a train sucks if its going to cost more money or even the same money as the car journey!
People want to live out in the sticks for quality of life. They will of course need a car if they do that. Who wants to live in the city or town etc if you can live in the country. What pissed me off is how they moan about the price of petrol going up when they live in such nice areas out of the way. I'm sure a few quid extra to pay to get to work and go to Tescos in the local town is a small price to pay for that luxury!But yes no one is going to use a train when you can use a car and save money. Even if it was a case of them being equal in price take the car, why take the train! Now maybe if you were saving 30 quid a week by using the train then I could see people going for it. Even more so these days with everyone having to count the coppers at the end of a working week. The simple truth is a train sucks if its going to cost more money or even the same money as the car journey!
Depends how you look at it doesn't it? I appreciate the benefits of living out in the country but I'd count having to rely on a car for everything as decreasing my quality of life rather than increasing it.
Likewise, whether the train is better than the car depends on whether you think sitting reading/looking out the window/having a coffee is better than sitting in traffic or not.
Can someone please tell me why public transport isn't cheaper than driving?
Some times it is ....
Harrogate > Stirling return by train £34 ( incl booking fee )
couldn't do that by car, and not sure I'd want to drive there and back same day
admittedly the times fit fine with my plans and that won't always be the case
People want to live out in the sticks for quality of life.
I don't. For me, that would mean a deterioration in my own personal 'quality of life'.
Who wants to live in the city or town etc if you can live in the country.
Me. A city has far more of what [i]I[/i] want on offer. The countryside is somewhere I go to now and then to ride bikes maybe. I soon get bored and homesick for the Big City though.
I know there are other people who are like me, urbanites who prefer the lifestyle in a big city. This idea that everyone would prefer to live in a 'nice quiet rural area' is just a myth.
I don't drive so I am reliant on Public Transport for when riding my bike ain't possible/appropriate. I don't really need to drive as Public Transport caters pretty much for 95% of my transportation needs when I'm not on my bike. In fact owning a car living in a big city, without needing to be able to travel here there and everywhere all the time, just seems like a daft idea really. What an expense. No-one I know who owns and drives a car in London get's better VFM than if they were to only use Public Transport. No one. For almost all of them, owning a car is a luxury (which most of them admit).
something like 80% of all people in the UK live in towns and cities. So, I'd reckon something close to 80% of all people in the UK don't actually, genuinely, 'need' a car. They just don't. No matter how hard they will argue that they do, and try to justify it, they simply don't. They just don't want to accept that life might not be quite as 'convenient' if they were to give up the car.
Meanwhile, I still have to breathe in foul air (wherever I go, not just in town), because so many people seem to think it's a God-given 'right' to own and drive a car. Maybe I, and others who don't drive could get a tax bonus or something for not contributing towards pollution?
Yeah, some folk need their vehicles, I accept that. Most, however, don't.
But whilst we continue to live in the manner of 'What I want matters more than what is good for my Community and Society', then we'll all have to put up with clogged roads an ting.
As for Public Transport; I can travel all over London all day long, using Tubes, trains, busses and trams, for just a few quid on my Oyster Card. No chance any form of motorised 4-wheel private transport is going to even come close to such convenience, ease of use and value for money. No chance.
As for longer journeys; I've bin to places like Bradford, North Wales and that recently and no return rail journeys cost me more than £5 or so. And I took my bike.
So, it might not work for everyone, but life without a car is possible, you know. And for a lot more people than would care to admit it.
Although I agree with much of what the Elfster says, I also think that that London is a special case. The moaning by Londoners about the tube is a case in point; it's an absolutely fantastic transport system, and compared to anywhere else in the whole of the UK, it's simply streets ahead in terms of moving large numbers of people around a city.
Outside in the grim wastelands however...
Since the great public transport sell off, the standard of public transport has fallen and fallen and fallen. Try moving a family of five across London, costs about £20 for all day, reliable, timely travel. Try the same across Manchester; it was £16 for a 6 mile journey, with a ten minute wait in Picadilly accompanied by the drunks, tramps and ne'er do wells spitting and swearing at one another at 5pm. Then a ten minute walk at the other end.
Elf, London isn't the rest of the UK and is unique in having a 'decent' underground system. I agree if you live in London then a car is a luxury to cart the kids around or pick up the shopping (if you are too luddite to order online and have it delivered)
However most other cities and towns have a joke of a public transport system. Runs poorly after early evening and often barely at all on sundays. For most people a car is needed.
Elf, London isn't the rest of the UK
I din't say it was. Merely stating that most folk here don't actually 'need' a car. Including all those who drive in cos they can't face Public Transport. Granted, it's not brilliant first thing in the morning, but if you want to earn the London Weight, then put up with the crap like everyone else. 13 million people live and work in London, that's like nearly a quarter of all people in the UK. So not quite a 'small localised issue'.
As for other places; I jolly well have not had extensive experience of loads of other places, but I can't say I've noticed the local Public Transport systems to be all that bad really. And as most other towns and cities are significantly smaller than London, personally I'd be riding a bike in anyway.
For most people a car is needed.
Simply not true.
What would perhaps help would be a regional Congestion Charge system like we have here, which has helped to reduce traffic significantly in the centre of town. Maybe have it so it's free/reduced for residents, and more spensive for 'outsiders'. Plus, it would help generate moneys for investing in Public Transport. CC has bin a right success here, so no reason why it coon't work elsewhere.
Elf, yes most people in this country live in towns and cities, but very few towns and cities have a public transport system that works anything like london.
I live in a town of c130,000 8 miles away is a city of c130,000 if i want to go centre to centre by bus fine, If i want to get to the parcel force/dhl depots because a parcel hasn't been delivered you are pretty much forced to drive as they are so badly served by public transport. If you want to get to outlining towns and villages forget it.
I work 15miles away, there are a couple of buses a day, i could catch a train which would involve a 25 miles detour. and i am not sure it would actually get me to work on time as i seem to remember that the connections wouldn't work. As for why i work 15miles from home, it was that or the dole? It does give me a decent ride to work though.
The mainline trains now only stop in Cheltenham and not in Gloucester, which further helps promote there use.
Would i want to live in London no way, yes i like visiting Kew, the British Museum, but not enough to want to put up with the commuting, the crowds etc.
Do people need to drive, no, but the more we design cities the way we do the more difficult it becomes not to.
Aye Elf but you claim 80% of people in UK who live in a town or city don't need a car either, not just the 25% you reckon live in or near London so your statement does include the rest of the UK.
Similarly not everyone has your lifestyle and ability to get about by bike. Add in kids and elderly realtives etc and your needs change.
I agree that the train can be a fantastic way to travel but the network needs investment and a complete overhaul in how it is run.
Public transport in this country is a joke compared to the majority of western Europe. I live 6-7 miles from the centre of Nottingham, for me to get in by public transport is a 20 min walk, wait for a bus (could be a while as they're nowhere near as frequent as used to be, then spend 30-40 mins on the bus. It will cost four of us best part of £10 in fares, maybe more. I can drive in 20 mins, park for less than the fare and have flexibility. I would like to use it more as we can go for lunch, have a beer and not worry about one of us driving. To try and use public transport for work is even worse! To the office it's an hour and a half each way, 20-30 mins door to door at peak times. Just no comparison. I use the train only for getting into big city centres (London, Birmingham etc).
Aye Elf but you claim 80% of people in UK who live in a town or city don't need a car either, not just the 25% you reckon live in or near London so your statement does include the rest of the UK.
I stand by my statement that most people in the UK don't 'need' a car, but the London thing is about my own personal experience. I'd say 95 percent of Londoners don't 'need' a car.
The answer lies in better, more efficient Public Transport, which is State owned and not for private profit.
A bit too Socialist an idea for some to digest perhaps, but the best answer in terms of the future, and anyone with a brain knows it too.
I can drive in 20 mins, park for less than the fare and have flexibility.
See, this is a selfish attitude, because you're not even considering your contribution to pollution, using up natural resources etc, are you?
There's a bigger picture than your own private convenience, you know.
I live in Aberystwyth (mid wales) to get to Bangor (north wales) or Cardiff (south wales) by train I have to travel via England. I'd quite like them to sort that out!
Going from here to home via train means getting off at Welshpool which is 1.5 hours and over a tenner return, it's also then another 10 miles to actually get home which I suspect would mean a bus to Oswestry and then another bus back out to where I actually live. I can drive home in less than 1.5 hours and it costs me about a tenner in fuel!
Only time I use the train is if I'm going to somewhere where I can't leave my car or London.
I work in environmental public health Elf, no need to lecture me about the bigger picture, especially when our wonderful capital city is blessed with as near to integrated public transport as you can get in this country. Especially the amount of damage the capital does to the environment. When four people are considered the emissions from my new, low emission, particulate filtered engine are less than the buses belching out diesel particulate matter etc. It is a fact that we do not have a system that is effective as the bigger cities and we're hardly in the sticks, peoples circumstances need to be taken into account too.
I'm happy for you to stand by your statement Elf. Still doesn't make it right though.
I'm sure most people would agree we need a better organised and more cost effective and cost efficient public transport system. However the car has to be integrated into that.
Only 1 of my friends doesn't drive and thinking of the others I can't see how any of them would manage without a car. Shift work, site visits, kids to move and get to work, the list of reasons why a car is needed grow longer the more I think about it.
bruk - because you have chosen a lifestyle that requires a car - its not a necessity its a choice - I know many people and even some families without cars.
TJ I am well aware it is possible to live without a car, I did so for several years whilst at Uni.
What I am disputing is Elf's assertion that the most people don't need a car.
In todays society a car has become essential for a large proportion of working people. The choice to choose a local job is not feasible for a lot of people and in a lot of families both parents have to work and often in widely different locations.
Bruk
And I tell you again. Its a choice to live in a way that requires a car.
A CHOICE
Most people do not need a car. Elf is right
This thread is useless without SBZ, who if i recall correctly went from a job right in the middle of the motor industry (with his famous zillion miles per year in a car :lol:) to not having a car in the family at all. Despite having nippers and both him and mrs working/studying/training. It would be interesting to hear how the SBZ family get along.
FWIW, we live a broadly similar life in terms of jobs and nippers, both of us ride to work and walk kids to (thankfully only 15 minute walk away) school and manage not to drive our car at all about three days in seven. Don't know how we'd do zero days out of seven though.
The major problem is lack of new capacity on the railways, and traffic congestion in towns, if we could re create the Busways of Runcorn, a town built around a circular deditated bus route,on dedicated roads,with no cars or other vehicles then that would be a start.
I'm happy for you to stand by your statement Elf. Still doesn't make it right though.
No I think you'll find the fact that I am making it [i]does[/i] actually make it right. Sorry, but that's how it is I'm afraid.
What I am disputing is Elf's assertion that the most people don't need a car.
[b]Most[/b] people don't [b]need[/b] a car.
Simples.
Humanity managed to evolve and exist for thousands and thousands of years previous to the last what, 70-80 years of cars being widely available.
You only [i]think[/i] you need a car, truth is that most of you really, really don't. It's just that you're too blinkered and in a state of denial to accept it. Of course you will scream 'til you're blue in the face that you need your car, but ultimately, it doesn't change the fact that I am right.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13627199 ]Oh and BBC agreeth with I.[/url]
TJ no need to SHOUT.
In your Utopian world everyone can choose to work near enough their job to commute by bike/public transport. In the real world however even people like Julianwilson who try their very best to go carless struggle.
Even you hire a car occaisonally!
Elf, if we want to return to before the war then yes you are right we don't [b]need[/b] cars. How many people would want that and how would the economy do without the mobility that is now present.
Its still remains a fact that its the choices you make that dictate the requirements for a car. You choose to live and work in the places you do, its not a need. Its a choice for the vast majority.
Ok so, from the Office for National Statistics, and DoT:
[/url]How far do people travel to work?
• The average length of a commuting trip increased by 6%, from 8.2 miles in 1995/97 to 8.7 miles in 2005.
• Men travel 10.5 miles to work on average, 67% further than women (6.3 miles).
• People living in the most rural areas travel furthest to work on average (11.3 miles), while those in major cities outside London travel the shortest distance on average (6.5 miles). London residents travel 8.0 miles.
• People from households in the highest income quintile travel more than twice as far to work on average (12.3 miles) as those in the lowest income quintile (5.8 miles).
• The average length of a business trip is 19.4 miles.
So, an awful lot of people don't travel more than a few miles in to work, according to this data. Within cycling distance, for sure, for a lot of them. And Certainly within bus/train/tube etc distance.
Sos sorry, but the 'I need my car' argument is an invalid one, in most cases.
See? Told you I was right... 8)
How many people work shifts? 17 % Try getting the bus to start your shift at 6am.
[url= http://www.thesite.org/workandstudy/working/workwelfare/nightshifts ]shift workers[/url]
Even if you only have to travel 8.7 miles (the average you quote) that becomes tricky. Choose another job I hear you say? What if that is all that is avaialable to you?
I don't need a car to get to my office (it's only 3.5 miles away so I can and have walked there), however I do need a car for work.
What if what if what if...
[img] 
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I need a car for shopping, how else am I supposed to get all those food filled Tesco bags home, certainly not on the bus with the rest of the riff-raff
elf
And Certainly within bus/train/tube etc distance.
if there is a bus, which more often than not there isn't, remember london is not the UK.
Yes far to many people do drive when they don't need to, but doesn't alter the fact that "public" transport is crap in most of the UK
bloodynora - Member
I need a car for shopping, how else am I supposed to get all those food filled Tesco bags home, certainly not on the bus with the rest of the riff-raffPosted 2 minutes ago # Report-Post
Tesco do deliveries.
Yes far too many people do drive when they don't need to
Ah, now we're getting somewhere at last...
Just nipping out to Co-Op to get some mushrooms. I'll walk, as it's only 1/2 a mile away. That doesn't stop some lazy arsed buggers who live by me driving there and back though. Seriously.
Sorry Elf if you think that a very quick google for some figures is clutching at straws.
Arguing with you or TJ is like arguing with this chap[img] 
[/img]
Elf, i can beat that, i have known people drive to the corner shop, on the end of the same street!!!!!!
My point is that for most people they work where they can and any job is better than no job. If you are in London commuting is possible by public transport but for the vast majority of the UK it is not possible as there is nothing there. You can walk, cycle or drive. As your figures show most journeys are over 8.7miles that is for the average person a fair distance to cycle and realistically your not going to walk 9miles before and after work everyday are you?
Mrmo - the majority of people live and work in urban areas where public transport is quite feasible. Its often more feasable than people will accept even outside of these.
You confuse the middleclass commuter with the average person.
the majority of commuter journeys in Edinburgh are not buy car
TJ, most people do not live in urban areas where public transport is feasible.
As a nurse i would have thought you would have done shifts and been faced with there being no bus home when the night shift finished? Or to be faced with the fact that the last bus has gone before your shift began.
I would have thought you would have worked christmas day and discovered that there are no buses, that taxis cost a fortune, a good few hours pay, if you can find one.
Who said anything about middle-class? most factories are built outside residential areas on green field estates with very limited public transport.
shift work has never been an issue for me with timing - I cycle. Nor has bus usuage been an issue for the people I work with
Yes the majority of people do live and work in urban areas - dinnae be daft laddie. are you really trying to claim that most people live in the countryside?
Many years ago, industry was built in locations near to the working classes, and if not transport was usually provided, workmens services.
Now the inner city and town areas that once housed the factories are either being closed down or moved to further afield to new sites, hat are being developed, so people need to be able to travel to get to work, to run a profitable bus or train service to serve all these places is not possible.
Also a bus picking up at the factory /office with 75 seats,theyre nmot all going to the same destinationn as home, so by the time youve dropped each one off near to home, the last one on has had a massive ride round the countryside, and is he expected to pay for the fuel, when a bus does about 7 or 8 mpg.
most people do not live in big cities most people live in smaller towns and cities, most people do not live in the countryside.
Most people live in places with crap public transport.
You must be very lucky to live somewhere buses run on christmas day, where you can get to work on a bank holiday. I know plenty of people who will not cycle because they are scared of traffic, and for some with good reason, which is why saying you cycle and so getting to work on christmas day is not a problem is avoiding the statement.
mrmo utter rubbish - most people live in urban areas where the public transport is fine.
As for christmas day - I have worked christmas day for many years - employers arrange transport for the staff who would normally bus it in. Bank holiday is no issue as buses still run. Its simply not the issue you think it is. the only days of no buses are christmas day and new years day. bank holidays are a sunday service and its no issue.
Introduction
Nearly eight of every ten people in the United Kingdom lived in
an urban area in 2001, according to the most recent definition
of the term. Urban areas covered 8.9 per cent of the UK’s land
mass at that time.
Nearly 41 per cent of urban dwellers lived in one of the ten
most populous urban areas. They accounted for 19,024,665
people or 32.4 per cent of the UK’s population.
The ten most populous urban areas in the UK are:
• Greater London Urban Area
• West Midlands Urban Area
• Greater Manchester Urban Area
• West Yorkshire Urban Area
• Greater Glasgow
• Tyneside
• Liverpool Urban Area
• Nottingham Urban Area
• Sheffield Urban Area
• Bristol Urban Area.
A bus that runs on Christmas day 😯 I'd love one just to run on a Sunday 😉
Public transport in London's not always as good as its cracked up. Its OK if you're fairly central and only want to do short trips. We're just inside the M25, which for practical purposes is London. I usually do work calls into London on public transport, it works OK in the day, First Crapital Connect permitting. However if we want a night out in town and don't want to spend ages waiting at bus stops or on platforms its easier to drive - don't like having to do it, but that's the way it is. The night life goes on late but the public transport doesn't.