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Anyone in the know here? Not quite sure where I stand now post Brexit. My company will allow me to work in a different geography for 15 days per annum… as long as I have the right to work in the country.
I’m a British passport holder / country is Austria. As far as I can make out, just taking my laptop and doing a few hours over the course of the week may be permissible. I won’t be selling anything, doing r&d, meeting anyone. Effectively just working remotely for my uk company.
What are the rules now? Can anyone point me to official guidance!?
Obviously a bike forum is the best place to ask this. 👍
Thank you!
Can't help mum but this exact topic came up here a few weeks back mate.
I'm useless at searching this forum though.
Can’t help mum but this exact topic came up here a few weeks back mate.
can you not just msg your mum direct
I tried to look into this but can find nothing that stipulates an amount of time where anything other than ‘no longer having the right to work in an EU country without a visa’ applies.
So if your employer’s only stipulation is that you have the right to work there to meet their risk/legal conditions, the answer would be no.
IANA expert.
having the right to work temporarily in another country is different from the permanent right. You can certainly go to an EU country for a meeting, remaining employed by your UK legal entity, and in most other countries I've been to (not europe, thinking about it) the same still applies.
that suggests you're good to go
Aha I stand corrected. Cheers @5lab. I spent too long on govuk t’other day to not find that 🤓
Sorry. Why would you want to work on holiday?
I suspect the answer is that you need to tighten up your company's definition of working in another country. In practice you are working in the UK from a remote location,
Why - so you can stay longer. If an hours work means your trip goes from 2 weeks to 3 or 4, I can do that
Check with your employer - I'm strictly forbidden to work outside the UK with my role. My laptop is also not allowed out of the country.
Is your company contributing to the cost of your holiday, or are you taking your laptop because you can't switch off?
I used to be "finish when the jobs done" now I'm "is that the time? I'm done". Much happier now.
If you're working you're not on holiday. I'd expect at least that day back and something to help sweeten the fact I've put work before family at Christmas.
You aren't going to a meeting, so the exemption ^^^^ on gov.uk doesn't apply.
If you don't have the right to work in the EU (assuming you don't have citizenship?) then you would be classed as providing a service whilst working in that country. The fact you work for a UK company is irrelevant, its the location you are working in.Its a no I'm afraid.
Another wonder of Brexit.
Simple answer, no.
Ask the Austrians, it's their call not the UK govt's.
If you’re working you’re not on holiday. I’d expect at least that day back
Some jobs, mine included, offer a lot of flexibility quid pro quo. So they will ask you do do something when it's needed in the evenings or on a holiday, and they'll not chase you up at other times. So you can domlong bike rides or spend family time when you want.
My team works on the basis of getting done what needs doing when it's urgent, and you can fill the rest of the time however you want, which includes non urgent work but no-ones really checking. Tis kind of flexibility can work out very well.
Rrgardless of if you legally can - if you're in a van or a hotel room - *who's going to stop you*?
That sort of flexibility can also work out very badly. You might well gain a lot of flexibility to take time off mid week but you won't have your kids or friends to share it with
You could probably get away with speeding, shoplifting and fraud too. They are still illegal though.
Lol. Speeding, shoplifting and fraud are not equivalent to getting your job done wherever you like.
Just because idiots voted to restrict freedom of movement doesn't mean we should take it.
Ignore it. You harm no one. Do your job.
You could probably get away with speeding, shoplifting and fraud too. They are still illegal though.
Easier to police as well than the holiday police who check up to make sure your not working on holiday 🙂
That sort of flexibility can also work out very badly.
Indeed it can, but it can also work out well. So let's let the OP decide on that, and answer the question about work permits.
TBH I’d rather head something off at the pass rather than return to something that has needlessly snowballed to a ginormous cluuster****.
Ah, the selective application of the law. Exceptionalism at its finest. The vote is immaterial. Your rights in EU states are now different as a non-EU citizen.
Lol. Speeding, shoplifting and fraud are not equivalent to getting your job done wherever you like.
Hmm, we're back to the only crimes are the ones you get found guilty of - you are Boris Johnson and I claim my £10.
You could probably get away with speeding, shoplifting and fraud too. They are still illegal though.
Illegal is a blunt and often fairly useless word. You always have to consider the sanction. Friends who have had visas issues have at worst been threatened with removal from the country. In the case of a holiday maker doing a bit of work while away it is a theoretical risk at worst.
I love the stockholm syndrome shown here. How folk have come to the conclusion working outside of their hours, on holiday, on days off is the right thing to do.
FFS Stockholm Syndrome....
I'm considering doing the same - I'm usually up before the kids so can be on the laptop for a couple of hours in the morning and maybe while they're in the pool or something, all which might add up to a couple of days work which can be traded for another couple of days holiday. Bolt them on to a weekend and your holiday's four days longer. I get that it's not a complete break but if your work's not high stress crap then it may well be worth it for those extra days, especially for say camping in France where 4 extra nights doesn't cost much as a proportion of the total trip cost. To be honest there's all sorts of reasons why it's a good idea and will suit people, especially with tech making remote working so simple. If you don't fancy it then don't do it.
Some jobs, mine included, offer a lot of flexibility quid pro quo. So they will ask you do do something when it’s needed in the evenings or on a holiday, and they’ll not chase you up at other times. So you can domlong bike rides or spend family time when you want.
IME that flexibility is usually fairly asymmetric.
Well it's clear that the law says you can't and company policy says you can't but the chances are you could get away with it if you play your cards carefully. There's a chance I will bend the law in the future in similar ways though it will depend on circumstances which haven't arisen yet and may not.
(And in my case it may be less clearly breaking law as I can usually arrange business meetings in destination country which may then enable me to work legitimately. I'll check in more detail as and when it becomes more concrete.)
Add up all the extra hours you do over your contracted remembering evenings and weekends count for at least time and a half and anything over 40 does as well. then see how it is at the end of the year
then compare it to the WTD and see
working without proper time off to decompress reduces your efficiency greatly. Its counter productive not to take daily,weekly and annual breaks
then think how much loyalty you would be shown by your bosses if the business is needing to shed staff
IME that flexibility is usually fairly asymmetric.
Not always, in my experience. If you have a shit employer then maybe it is, but don't work for shit employers.
How folk have come to the conclusion working outside of their hours, on holiday, on days off is the right thing to do.
Because the reverse can apply, I often do whatever I want during work hours.
And I actually like helping people, so sometimes I do 'work' whilst sat on the sofa watching telly in the evenings, which might include chatting to someone about things I know about, which isn't really a chore. I did it last night - someone in the US messaged me with questions about something, I chatted, they were happy, and so was I. Clearly working out of hours can be bad, but it also can be good depending on you, your situation and your job.
Don't assume everyone's a workaholic just because they are doing it 'out of hours'
Add up all the extra hours you do over your contracted
Hehe that's a calculation I really don't want anyone to do!
Another thing - I really like helping people. If a crucial part of my project is happening and people need my input, but I want to go on holiday, I really hate the idea that I'm letting them all down - or not able to take the family holiday. So a couple of hours one afternoon is the ideal solution in that respect. The team is happy, I'm happy (cos I've helped and not caused a problem) and my family's happy because we've got the nice long holiday we wanted.
I should point out that my employer's never actually let me do this because they insist I don't work on holiday, but I've offered. Work aren't always the enemy.
Obviously employers do abuse employees, and it's probably the most common scenario, but don't assume.
Well it’s clear that the law says you can’t
No one has posted anything that suggests that is true.
People work on holiday all the time - taking calls, answering emails and so on. Maybe they 'shouldn't' but it happens worldwide. Brexit won't change that.
If you have a decent amount of responsibility, then responding to stuff whilst in your own time goes with the territory. I'll bet our ambassador in Ukraine won't be working his contracted hours over the Christmas holiday for example 😉
Anyway, planning a (family) holiday and trying to squeeze normal work in around that is dodgy at best.
Notwithstanding the legalities (which are theoretical as there is no enforcement) the practical issues might be difficult.
Have you told your employer of your plan, or are you going to sneak it under the radar? If the latter, what would happen if you were found out?
As above, restrictions on where you can log in could stymie a stealth holiday WFH. Will your IT security let you log in from overseas? If not, then you're stuck.
If you have a tech issue or problem e.g. no internet, what's your plan B?
Might your employer expect you to attend the office at short notice if there was a crisis?
Do you have to be available during office hours for currently unscheduled calls? Might be awkward Zooming from your hotel room or up a mountain or whatever.
What would happen if your laptop got stolen (or catastrophically broke) whilst you are away?
Etc etc etc
I've known people get caught out like this before. Whilst it didn't end in dismissal, it didn't do career progression much good as it does create a breach of trust.
Ignoring the ridiculous refusal of some to imagine there might be fine reasons to do something like this, >rolls eyes<, I looked into this as we were deep into home working last year. Partly because we anticipated the question arising, and partly because I quite fancied the idea of a few weeks with different riding around me!
We came to the same conclusion as above - as a formal business position you have to end up in a "if you have the right to work there" stance. And then as long as its temporary and you aren't doing business _in_ the country, then you're more or less certain to be OK. But UK passport in EU ... Brexit computer says no 😞
I am not going to be working on my hols. But the option to travel early to where I will be on holiday has arisen. My wife and son can enjoy a couple of extra days and I'll end up with more leisure time than under my original plans.
And, if my last trip abroad was anything to go by - If I end up stranded, I have a work laptop with me and don't have to plough through my 2022 holiday allowance.
Does anyone ACTUALLY know, or able to interpret the documentation? Simplified... are a few work emails, the odd call and zoom meeting ok?
My company has approved it - based on me having the right to work (which is my call) in that country. but only for 15 days and they monitor your IP address location.
Ignoring the ridiculous refusal of some to imagine there might be fine reasons to do something like this,
and what fine reasons might these be?
Your team depending on you?
The Trade and Cooperation agreement allows for temporary business travel for periods of upto 90 days.
To paraphrase it, if you're *not* actually on the street selling stuff to customers in the EU country you are in, then you are fine to perform business activities.
So handling emails and attending a couple of zoom calls while you are in your italian villa or hotel room for a day or 2 isn't a problem nor is it by any stretch of the imagination illegal.
https://twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1342714181611626496/photo/1
Short-term business visitors (Article 142) can stay in the other party’s territory
for up to 90 days in any six-month period. This is if they are not selling goods
to the general public or providing services directly to consumers during their
stay.
Short-term business visitors are allowed entry to carry out certain,
“permitted” activities which are listed in paragraph 8 of Annex 21. For
example, they may attend meetings and consultations, carry out independent
research, marketing research, participate in trainings, trade fairs and
exhibitions, engage in sales or purchase negotiations or other commercial
transactions.
Some types of service provision are also allowed under this category
(Paragraph 8 of Annex 21). Professional installers, repair and maintenance
personnel can provide after-sales or after-lease services as agreed in a prior
contract with a consumer from the other party. Also travel agents, tour
guides and tour operators, interpreters and translators may work while on a
short-term business visit in the territory of the other party.
Generally, short-term business visitors would not require a work permit,
would not be subject to an economic needs test or other similar approvals.
But certain limitations may apply. These vary by EU Member State, as listed in
Annex 21.
Annex 21 for those that are really interested:
https://www.traverssmith.com/media/7286/annex-short-term-business-visitors-4125-2938-6031-v1.pdf
Your team depending on you?
Poor management if you are the only person who can help. You being complicit in this covers up the poor management. So you end up doing extra work out of hours because the management cannot provide cover and everytime you do this it reinforces the poor management by allowing them to get away with it.
A failure of managemnt to plan / staff appropriately is not a reason for you to take up the slack.
What would happen if you were off grid, ill, drunk?
FFS. He's asking because it will make his life easier, not because he's being exploited.
Boss: "Hey TJ we need someone to fly out X for a couple of days"
mccraque: "cool I was actually going to X with the family, if go a day or to earlier , then we can get a bit more holiday time together".
Boss: "sounds , great but I'm not sure about the whole workig on hols thing now we've had brexit"
mccraque: "I'll ask my cycling mates, someone will know the answer"
boss: "excellent, winner winner chicken dinner"
No one has posted anything that suggests that is true.
If you want a definitive answer I'm sure the Austrian embassy would be able to tell you it's not allowed.
Still no, unless the OP wants to act illegally and put his employer at risk.
If he/she doesn't GAS, crack on.
If that was the case he would not be working on holiday would he? He would be working in work time and the holiday starting afterwards
FFS. He’s asking because it will make his life easier, not because he’s being exploited.
Boss: “Hey TJ we need someone to fly out X for a couple of days”
mccraque: “cool I was actually going to X with the family, if go a day or to earlier , then we can get a bit more holiday time together”.
Boss: “sounds , great but I’m not sure about the whole workig on hols thing now we’ve had brexit”
mccraque: “I’ll ask my cycling mates, someone will know the answer”
boss: “excellent, winner winner chicken dinner”
🙂
I'm not being exploited. They're actually letting me go on holiday when I should be working rather than the other way around - if you want to look at it like that. Company could have said "no, stay at your desk in your home office".
Had you booked the time off and had it approved before this work issue came up?
Ahh, the joys of running your own company. As I do work that is mainly CAD based, I've found myself working on many a holiday. Had a few funny looks in Portugal sat on the beach laptop in hand answering questions from my erectors on a build we were doing.
The wife is pretty forgiving, and knows its the work that pays to have the holidays and nice things.
I always make sure I am available during the day to answer any queries , but do most of the work at night when the kids are asleep.
Never even crossed my mind that it might be "illegal" to work abroad.
Yes, Brexit has, at least in theory, ballsed up a lot of my working holidays. As for whether people should be working on holiday: if you're flipping burgers for Maccy Ds then don't work a minute over your contracted hours but if you're, say, responsible for the lives of hundreds of Afghan contractors, then yes you should be on email and Zoom on your hols.
Ahh, the joys of running your own company.
One of the few excuses for working on holiday that add up to me.
Poor management if you are the only person who can help. You being complicit in this covers up the poor management. So you end up doing extra work out of hours because the management cannot provide cover and everytime you do this it reinforces the poor management by allowing them to get away with it.
Weren't you a nurse? What happened if you were in the middle of some kind of patient care when your shift ended? Did you rip off the rubber gloves and walk away saying your shift was over?
I managed my time so that didn't happen. Simple as that. Presenteism in hospitals is a big issue and I would never allow anyone under me to not take their breaks or not go home on time. Never once did I ask those below to miss breaks or stay late. But then on a day to day basis I was a competent manager.
Twice in my career I went over hours. Once because an old mans wife had died and I stayed on half an hour to comfort him as I had been his main point of contact rather than leaving him with staff he did not know
The second time was a piece of poor management. The management did not ensure safe staffing levels on the night shift ( I was on day shift). I phone the senior manager and told them " this ward is not safe without a second staff nurse and I am off shift in ten minutes. Under the nmc code of conduct I cannot leave the ward until it is safe. Under my contract you will be paying me overtime until I feel the ward is safe or until a replacement is found" I was told " I cannot authorise overtime" to which my reply to the manager in charge of the wing of the hospital " I am not asking you this. I am telling you what will happen"
Caused a huge ruckus, the manager was bollocked and I got my double time and went home when the ward was safe. I also took my compensatory rest as I am legally obliged to do
Except in very occasional emergencies staying late is always a management failing in hospitals and I will not be a part of that and even in emergencies the overtime should be minutes not hours
Every time you work unpaid overtime or over your hours because of management failings you are enabling that failing. Standing up to it makes management address those failings. the situation I outlined above never happened again. It had been a regular occurrence ( But not when i was on duty before this) but once I stood up to stop it it stopped
this is why I acted as I did. Make the senior management manage. force them to confront their failings and to correct them
Twice in my career I went over hours
Wow.
I never left a patient in need. I managed my time and the staff under me properly to avoid this