You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Just mulling over our next 5-10 years of holidays/day trips/travel to sailing events etc, mrs g-d lobbed the rather bizarre hand-grenade of "Have you seen X & Y's camper that'd be great for ..... ". It's bizarre because mrs g-d has always been in the "van - no chance" school of thinking.
Strictly no one needs this kind of vehicle but that bit is mainly a debate for the g-d's to have.
Main things I'd like any purchase / conversion to be capable of are:
1) Carrying the dog securely and comfortably - he's Lab sized and a bit prone to car sickness which we're trying to train out of him at the moment
2) Not having the children sitting practically against the rear door(s)
3) Space to get some bikes in through the back door for transport
I reckon it would have to be a high-top or pop-top, and likely LWB vehicle but not as big as the wonderful red Iveco(?) leviathan build someone did a couple of years back on here.
I can picture a couple of ways of laying out such a base vehicle in terms of DVLA requirements (e.g. crew cab with second row set back a bit + rotating front seats to table/kitchen area and bed space above a garage/rear door accessed store) but what I cannot for the life of me grasp is how we deal with securing the dog within that environment. He'll appreciate being able to see/hear us I think.
If any of you lovely people has any ideas on base vehicles I could google dimensions and knock up some rough scale drawings but even more critically if anyone has any idea about the dog carrying it would be gratefully received.
I need to scope this out roughly in terms of cost and size of base vehicle to work out if it's doable before we argue about whether we are prepared to do it.
Showing fine here. I fear you may be overestimating how much space there is in most vans. Honestly, until you get into the coach-built or Long high sprinter size vans, then you are working with little more than a tent on wheels. You mention a wife who could have a reluctance to live out of a van, kids (plural) and a large dog. You really don't want to be looking at anything of a size that merits a pop-top (T5, Vivaro, transit!) unless you are already accomplished campers. Might I suggest you hire a van for a weekend, see how you get on, and take it from there.
Your brief overview of layout is my van (albeit with about 750mm between second row and seats and the bed for a small toilet and kitchen). That layout fits in a 6m high top van (1 metre shorter than the big red Iveco (presumably you are referring to trailrat)
If you have two single front seats there would be room for a dog bed between the front seats or between the rows, although I think dogs used to traveling in a fairly enclosed boot take some getting used to it. We've had friends and family bring dogs a couple of times and they are normally a bit stressed and won't settle (and it's not the driver!). You could harness the dog to a seat base if worried about flying objects during travel.
You could also cage them under the fixed bed, it would eat into bike space, however my fridge is under the front edge of the bed and I can still fit 3 bikes easily, 4 bikes with planning.
My parents spaniel got quite travel sick (it was always a race to get her out the car in time) but she loved their sprinter - couldn’t get her out of it. Only thing my Dad put it down too was she sat in her basket behind the rear passengers seat (her lead was tied in to stop her wandering and getting under the drivers feet) and therefore it was a lot more stable ride than being bounced around in the boot of the car stuck out from the rear axle.
OK, odd showing in my forum history but not in actual forum. Hamster on tea break?
Every post made in the last week seems to have this issue until reply #1 is in place.
I would agree with welsh farmer. If you want a lwb medium sized van) i.e a lwb vivario, transporter etc you will not get all you want in it. You could do: Second row of seats with large boot for bikes and dog, or maybe two kids seat with dog cage in between. To get kids seats + camper van + bike storage you will need lwb large van, i.e. sprinter, movano, crafter etc. If this is going to replace an existing car for many this would be an issue.
We’ve just finished building a L3 (6metre) Citroen Relay, anything smaller I wouldn’t want to take 4 people away in. Previously had Transporters for years and 2 of us and cocker spaniel fitted fine but even that was a squeeze if the weather was bad and you had to sit inside.
Do you want the full works with shower and toilet, hot water etc or a more basic camper? Would you expect to drive to a campsite and set up camp with an awning etc or be self sufficient with minimal set up? That will dictate the size of van really.
If you want bikes in the back then a fixed double bed is ideal for them to fit under.
This is ours
[img] 
[/img]
There’s a fixed bed behind the seat and the table drops down to make a double bed, so it would sleep 4 (albeit in 2 double beds, kids top & tailing depending on age??)
You could factor in a dog crate instead of the front bench and have the drivers seat on a swivel or have seating on top of the dog crate.
Our dog sits on the bench seat behind the driver and gets clipped on.
Citroen Relay L3H2 here, and there's just room for 4 of us to travel with a kitchen in place and then a bed in the rear. We always take the tent and boot the kids out into that for the night. As mentioned above once you start taking bikes, windsurf boards, surf boards it's pretty much a full van without the bin lids in there.
Benefit of taking a tent is you can empty all of the crap out of the van into the tent for day trips etc.
We have a T6, our dogs travel in a large bed. We have a lab and and a cocker, they share the bed. The bed sits behind the driver seat/passenger seat. They have a lead on, flexible lead/harness so plenty of movement but secure enough should we do an emergency stop. Plenty of room in the van for the large bed, kids have plenty of room on the rear seats, even room for the table between the dogs and kids if they want it up.
We got the dogs used to by taking them on short trips where the end result would be they get to play/run around. The lab gives me puppy eyes every time I pick up the van keys, honestly he enjoys coming out in it.
We don’t have a shower or toilet in ours. We made the decision that space was limited enough so we would only use campsites. Even when I go on my own I stay on a campsite. Generally close to somewhere I can also get a beer. The wife isn’t one for staying in the van to be honest, but in good weather with the tent attached to the van for additional room she’s ok.
With the wife & kids, a large dog, bikes and stuff for a holiday I don't think you will find a van based camper that meets the payload. Have you considered a caravan? You could choose the layout that suits your needs and carry the family and dog in comfort and safety in the car. You could also put bikes on the roof if you didn't want to put them inside the caravan for travelling.
Just mulling over our next 5-10 years of holidays/day trips/travel to sailing events etc, mrs g-d lobbed the rather bizarre hand-grenade of “Have you seen X & Y’s camper that’d be great for ….. “. It’s bizarre because mrs g-d has always been in the “van – no chance” school of thinking.
What’s the Jones’ one like?
We had similar discussion pre covid. Made it as far as the camping and caravanning show before realising that for the level of comfort we expect at our age we would need something so big a long way towards buying a small second home!
Keep in mind that if you are going to events etc the dates not the weather will dictate when it’s used so you may be stuck in it whilst it’s pouring in the evenings. Not sure how well set up the sailing events you do are - but that’s likely more damp/wet kit inside the van. We don’t even have a dog and it was just not going to be pleasant enough to get used lots.
Have you considered a caravan? You could choose the layout that suits your needs and carry the family and dog in comfort and safety in the car. You could also put bikes on the roof if you
Not a bad option if you're going to stay in campsites anyway. You can always tow with a swb transporter type van to carry more crap. Seen people carry dingys on the roof.
If you want 4 seats, fitted fridge / sink, etc and the ability to carry 4 bikes on the inside, by default you are going to be looking at a big van. If you can live with some of the bikes on a rack, have a look at something with the rear seats fitted on rails. - This allows the seats to be slid right forward during travelling, leaving the back of the van for stuffing stuff into. - At the time we bought ours, Exploria were the only company I could find who fitted the system. Our dog used to just lie under / on the kids feet between the 2 rows of seats.
No advice on vans, but most of those dog cages fold flat, so could be used whilst driving (between sets etc) and then packed away once at the campsite.
As others have said - try hiring a couple of different ones first before laying out all the money to buy one. I have hired a fair few over the years - from mahooosive coachbuilts to MPV based small ones.
Having had a small camper van (SWB T5) they are extremely limited on space. Great if you are not intending to spend much or any time inside the van, but even with just two adults lounging around inside the van during an evening space is limited and you're constantly on top of each other and having to move stuff around to create space to move into. Also have nowhere to hand wet coats and stuff.
When I do it again it will be a proper motorhome or, dare I say it, a caravan. At the very least a very large long wheelbase extended roof van like a big Sprinter or VW Crafter or something like that, but not sure what such a big camper van is giving you over a proper motorhome...ok they are cooler, but just as expensive, just as difficult and limiting to drive around, so struggling to see the benefit.
a very large long wheelbase extended roof van like a big Sprinter or VW Crafter or something like that, but not sure what such a big camper van is giving you over a proper motorhome…ok they are cooler, but just as expensive, just as difficult and limiting to drive around, so struggling to see the benefit
I agree for the off-the-shelf ones. Vans that size make sense if you're self-building and want a layout that works for you - big garage for bikes/motorbikes/kart etc, lots of bunks for kids, removable furniture in the back so you can still use it like a van.
100% agree on hiring. My parents did, decided they didn't like the size/layout of what they hired (that they were all set to buy), bought something different and are still in the process of switching to something else a few years later.
T6 type, LWB with sliding seats would be a nice option for an everyday usable dayvan that you could set up with a big awning for holiday/weekend. But that's really just camping with a van attached. Comfy year round space without everyday size restrictions - motorhome.
T6 LWB here. There is only 2 of us + dog. She goes in her bed on the floor and I have a climbing sling looped round the bed frame we clip her harness into.
It is a metal tent which I fully accept but I love it, carries a surprising amount of kit but bed time takes a bit of tetris. Ours had a pop top which works for us as I can still fit it on our garage (just).
Ive seen people put the dg in the rear garage under the bed, with a grill/mesh door so they can see through to the front?
With the wife & kids, a large dog, bikes and stuff for a holiday I don’t think you will find a van based camper that meets the payload. Have you considered a caravan? You could choose the layout that suits your needs and carry the family and dog in comfort and safety in the car. You could also put bikes on the roof if you didn’t want to put them inside the caravan for travelling
this is the conclusion i came too, that anything big enough for what we needed and that you were happy to sit out a couple of days of bad weather in without getting cabin fever was going to be based on a van that was too big for a daily driver (so would become a very expensive 3rd vehicle) or would be in the coach built category and cost an eye watering amount.
ended up buying a second hand caravan for a fraction of the cost a van / motorhome would of cost us and works really well for what we need (was fortunate to have a car that could tow it in the first place mind).
big benefits of being lots cheaper and you're not having to drive your 'camp' around with you on every day trip when you're away or if you need to nip to the shop for supplies. also means me and sofagirl can do different things to each other on the same day.
downsides are the general towing it and sometimes being limited on where you can stop as many campsites won't except caravans when they will take vans.
Mrs NZCol had one wet week in Torridon too many with a toddler in our California and we bought a large white box. It has heating, toilet, hot water, i can get 4 bikes in it and while its a bit of an arse to park sometimes its more than made up for it by being nice to live in. 4 people and a dog in a T6 will be 'tight' esp if its wet !
Agree with others - try before you buy - we rented 6 different vans before we agreed on size, layout and what was essential. It's a lot of cash to be sat for 75% of the year doing nothing as well.
Yeah agree with the 4 people plus dog being tight in a T6. We have two of us in a LWB, with the bikes and we have sat out a few wet days without killing each other but any more people in it and it would be awful.
On my T6 the bikes are on the outside. We have a zip away tent, gives us plenty of room if the weather is bad. We have space for a bedroom, dining table plus 4 chairs and a small area where we dump our gear.
If we want to go out in the van, just unclip and away we go.
I’d love a bigger van, but had to weigh out other practicalities, essentials it’s always going to be a compromise, just about selecting what works best for you.
The tent works well for the summer when staying in one place long enough. Not great if doing a touring trip. Takes 30 mins to put up which is fine in the summer, last November in the pouring rain wasn’t fun!
Definitely try before buying.....we bought a new motorhome in December....absolutely love it, but can't help thinking that we'd like a garage that we could put the bikes in for safety! That said we'd be looking at almost a meter longer than ours to get that, which would make parking it when we go hiking even more of a pita!
We're living in ours for 2 years whilst doing a barn conversion so are justifying the cost that way! Plus we're trying to get away every weekend in it too.
Edit. @w00dster what do you do for bike security?
@Tom-B, this is one of the compromises, bikes are locked to the rack with the inbuilt locks, I also have multiple D locks and New York Kryptonite chains. The bikes are next to my head on a campasite so generally I’m going to be woken by any tampering.
The faff is when we go out for the day. Cheaper bikes (kids) are locked up in the campsite, my bike is locked inside the van. This happens about once or twice during a week long trip.
So far no issues.
Yeah I'm thinking I'd want them in that van if we're out hiking etc. Thinking of looking into bike bags, as mine especially would be fairly easy sure store in one in the bathroom (we've got a full width rear bathroom) Got a few Kryptonite locks....also wondered if a motorbike chain around the frame and through an alloy wheel would be any good.....takes seconds to go through the alloy carriers apparently 😔
Thanks very much everyone.
Re-reading my original post realised I left a couple of things out, one of which is that the primary use would be as a day van for 4 that ticks the motorhome box with occasional staying over for 1 or 2. The motorhome compliance was as much about convenience of speed limits, ferry costs and potential ease of resale vs. a more limited use day van still registered and insured as a light commercial. Family holidays the main tent would come with (either in the van or existing trailer).
The friends have the California (I think that's the right one with the pop top and rock n roll bed at the back) and I think Mrs G-D likes the idea of the ability on a wet day to be able to hide away indoors with a kettle and stay dry/warm while (for example) older son is out on the water for 3 or 4 hours at a time. Pre covid we'd have been able to locate ourselves in a nearby coffee shop/sailing club bar etc. but restrictions have basically resulted in sitting in the boot of the car with a flask of tepid tea, changing in the car park windsurfer style etc.
EDIT: I think we either seem to be ending up (1) at SWB camper with rock n roll bed + crate/harness mount on floor with bikes on outside for transport + existing trailer for full blown camping trips or (2) a much larger LWB with more storage, home converted with tricky bits outsourced or (3) a crew cab non-camper with some fold out cleverness in a ply-lined more utilitarian back end.
The T6 (SWB) is a perfect day van. But as I’ve alluded to there are compromises. I would prefer something bigger, but there are other compromises with the longer/higher vehicles that I couldn’t overcome.
I really like mine, it fits in with our lifestyle. The kids love it.
But storage isn’t amazing. No toilet or shower in ours. The clip on tent is a great bit of kit and helps extend the space, also helps keep the van clean (strip off muddy clothes in the tent). We have lamps and portable heaters for the tent, plus very comfy armchairs, but this kit then eat into luggage space. I wouldn’t want to not have the tent though. A normal awning would help, but due to our weather not being predictable plus added privacy given by the tent, means we put up with the lack of space when travelling.
There is the VW scene tax, we bought ours new and fully converted. But as I’m useless at any DIY projects I didn’t have the skills to create my own.
We have two hobs, grill and a sink, all we do with the grill is make toast/bagels, but the hons are used regularly for coffee and hot chocolate. My kids race XC, in the winter they love getting back to the van after a race and the hot chocolates are ready.
The T6 gets under a lot of parking barriers and fits into standard spaces, this is why we couldn’t get a larger van.
If you want photos of the layout of the van let me know.
woodster
Thanks very much that probably most accurately reflects where we are/similar to our intended use.
The other element of my thinking was whether we could find enough storage room to do without our existing trailer as I could use the driveway space back. I think that's not one I'll succeed on unless the van is much bigger than mrs g-d will probably accept!
I've owned firstly a converted T5 with poptop etc, then a caravan, and currently a Transit Custom double-cab plus big tent. So my thoughts...
If primary use is as a daily for 4 folk then a T5/6/Custom-sized van is better: less hassle to park and can more feasibly replace a car. I'd always say LWB over SWB forthis size of van as the extra length makes little difference to driving/parking but a huge difference when loading in bikes etc - cargo area on a SWB crew/double-cab is quite short. However, T5/6/Custom etc is tight if used as a camper for 4 folk. It took one wet weekend with the 4 of us in our T5 camper to start looking at alternatives.
Caravans are great for certain types of use, ours worked great for us at the time but storing it was a PITA (cost and poor access times) and the general hassle if stopping enroute led us to sell it last year. Very cheap compared to any campervan. Replaced with big family tent we use alongside our Custom. Doesn't sound like caravan would suit your needs at all.
Camper vs day van: you've already mentioned speed limits etc - I've made my peace with driving more slowly with my Transit. Not that big a deal in reality. I'd love another full conversion but the cost is astronomical, so I'll stick with my 5-seat Transit Custom and just use camping stove etc in the cargo area on days out. Adding front seat swivels has been great for wet days away and creates a nice little space.
Rear seat position: I didn't like having the kids located at the far end of the van when travelling in our T5 camper, so a rear seat/bed on rails would be essential if we converted again.
Your comment about enough storage to do without your existing trailer? Roof box on a T5/T6/Custom! We fit most of our camping gear in our 580ltr roofbox (4 x chairs, table/chair set, camping kitchen, sleeping mattresses, sleeping bags etc). Tent, fridge, remaining camping gear, clothes, food, etc, plus biking gear and up to 6 bikes go inside the cargo area.
A lot is perception I think.
the primary use would be as a day van for 4 that ticks the motorhome box with occasional staying over for 1 or 2.
My SWB/H2 Master is a van, a day/race van, bike carrier that can carry 3 people and sleep 2 (that aren't close friends) and 5 bikes inside overnight and still have a projector.
This means a few compromises ...I have to inflate the airbed to sleep (using electric pump) and remove wheels off bikes overnight... hot water needs to be specifically heated and takes 10 mins to get to shower 40C and I can't heat water and use the clothes/shoe drier at the same time.
No dedicated cooking but then as a day/race van we're more likely to get take away if its chucking it down... and the shower is outside in a pop-up ..no toilet (again easy to find somewhere or if you're staying on a site use the facilities)
Carpeting is a pain for dog hairs...
However its also useful for example next Sat planning a 2hr plus journey with friends... so I can easily get 7-8 bikes in the van and 3 people whilst my mate can carry 7 people in his Sharran.
or I can pop to Wickes and buy 20 sheets of 8'x4' ply ...
Most of our compromises are building-in in a minimalist fashion. Bench/storage down one side only with diesel heater and water heating under it.. table has to have legs screwed on ... rather than just fold down etc. and airbed vs fixed bed...
I could also fit a set of removable seats on Unwin rails if we needed them... or add a roofrack or towbar
Decide if you want to use campsites or sleep where you stop.
A sub low top t5 size vanis too small for the latter for more than 1. I see plenty folk attempting it they spend more time outside the van rearranging it to do normal tasks such as sitting /cooking /sleeping digging holes in/standing in other peoples shit to take a dump.
How ever if your on a site with facilities and are happy to pitch a tent they seem like a good compromise - but I think if I was forced to drive it everyday I’d just get a caravan and a car.
The big plus for a t5 is its use as a day van. Can totally see the draw for a small van for that although for actual camping with kids and dog I still think caravan preferred.
Off to mot the big red iveco behemoth next week for the season. Yes it’s big and ugly. But it was cheap and isn’t my daily driver. (I don’t drive day to day) but parking is not nearly as bad as you think because the actual wheel base is short enough I can put it in a regular parking space so long as the ground behind is flat.
And top point is - I’d take height over length any day do not underestimate the ability to stand if your going to use it regularly. Height barriers have never been an issue for us