[Closed] Cameron kicks EU in the nuts - right decision?

Junkyard - are you seriously comparing the present and recent governments with whats presently going on in Italy and Greece?

We don't like your government, so we're installing this one. And there's **** all you can do. Lots of love. Brussels

Maybe, just another one of those people arguing for a reduction in the role of governments and the size of the public sector. Reckon we will see a lot of that over the coming months.

At least many of these people are actually elected and answerable at an election. Contrast that with the people who "may" now be determining the power of state's to control taxation and spending!

I get your point it is not good and it is [ to some degree] not democratic but it is BS to suggest it only happen in Europe – that is my only point

I am largely indifferent to Europe as I dont care where the govt that ignores me sits tbh

See QUANGOS for example of unaccountable technocrats”

Totally overblown Daily Mail nonsense.

What quangos are neither technocrats or they dont have power? - the daily fail may rant about them but they do meet that descriptions. I would not call them technocrats but nor would I call the people in europe technocrats. the label would seem to be equally applicable to both

Tis interesting most folk really do hate europe and how anti democratic it is whilst ignoring the sam elack of democracy in our backyard

"A Tragedy of Bureaucrats". 😆

Teamhurtmoe - you claim to be pro europe - but actually you don't want the EU that we have. Well thats tough - you either play by the rules or you don't play. You cannot cherry pick the bits you want and not have to have the bits you don't.

I would prefer to be at the heart of Europe pressing for what we want rather than marginalised on the edge with no influence at all. If the UK enganged fully with the EU it would have huge influence as a result of its economic power. Now we have next to none

you either play by the rules or you don't play - You cannot cherry pick the bits you want and not have to have the bits you don't.

TJ - nobody appears to have told the French this, who simply ignore everything they don't like. And always have. See: fishing quotas, the Common Agricultural Policy. Rules on government subsidies to private business etc etc

And obviously all the Southern states have, from the beginninng, been rigorously adhering to the EU rules on debt as % of GDP, and budget deficits

interesting this can I accuse binners of sounding like the Daily Mail?
We seem to get some strong and polarised views on Europe 😯

So now the problem is we follow the rules but Johnny foreigner does not.....you know what you would say were this another thread Is it too early to bring in race ar shall i wait till you say Germany is stampeding across the EU like a panza division 😉

I would prefer to be at the heart of Europe pressing for what we want rather than marginalised on the edge with no influence at all. If the UK enganged fully with the EU it would have huge influence as a result of its economic power. Now we have next to none

we havent lost any power in Europe, and we are not marginalised

its all just bluff and posturing, because despite the bile from all sides, Europe needs the UK as much as the UK needs Europe.

maybe 40% of our trade is with Europe, but think about how much Europe trades with us, they cant afford for us to be not part of the free trade and they dont want to lose our markets for their products either.

Basically nothing happened last week and the markets havent reacted and business carries on regardless.

TJ - nobody appears to have told the French this, who simply ignore everything they don't like. And always have. See: fishing quotas, the Common Agricultural Policy. Rules on government subsidies to private business etc etc

Do they? or is that just how the media depict them? Much like the EU being a German plan to take over Europe its all nonsense.

As for breaking EU rules, Germany has been fined more than any country for breaking rules, it just dosent pay them.

Were all as bad as each other us Europeans.

Junkyard - its my age. Give me a few years and I'll be writing to the Daily Telegraph in green ink 😉

Hmmmm TJ, so you would rather all of our hard earned went to support the hardworking Greeks or the insolvent Portuese through some half baked and as yet not fully disclosed agreement that the markets have already rejected?

Or would you rather that the UK stood up for it's own interests and not become a Euro lemming running scared? Sure, the problems in the EU will affect UK trade, but this will be the same whether we are in or out.

The Euro will collapse - there's no question about that. The debate is how long the whole pantomime is strung along for. There are countries in the Euro that should never have been allowed to join. Because of the huge differences between member states then a single fiscal policy was never doing to suit every country in the Eurozone and as a result things are now starting to unravel big time.

The UK is far better outside all of this mess and able to plot it's own course in choppy waters.

Face it - nothing will come of the 17 plus deal anyway, as Sarkozy will be gone by May!

The interesting dynamic will be what happens if the French people start looking like they are going elect the wrong person...

We've seen what happend to "democracy" in creece and Italy!8O

workshy Greeks

See that's the type of statement that just shows hatred for Europe, it destroys your argument in the first sentence.

Would none-taxpaying, extremely early retiring Greeks be more acceptable then? Its certainly accurate

Northern star - Camerons veto has no bearing on this at all. None. thats a part of the issue. All he has done is make it harder for us to be heard when things are decided and make it harder for the crucial decisions to be made.

See that's the type of statement that just shows hatred for Europe, it destroys your argument in the first sentence.

There you go MSP, I have now taken a long hard look at myself in the mirror, slapped myself on the wrist for being so un-PC and have just edited 'workshy Greeks' to 'hardworking Greeks'.

That's better isn't it. Now you can read the rest of the post without getting upset. And the Greeks are now free to go about their hard daily work, walking their donkeys along their billiard smooth motorways that us the UK taxpayer has previously helped to fund.

What quangos are neither technocrats or they dont have power? - the daily fail may rant about them but they do meet that descriptions. I would not call them technocrats but nor would I call the people in europe technocrats.

[img] [/img]

All he has done is make it harder for us to be heard when things are decided and make it harder for the crucial decisions to be made.

Quite the opposite infact. Thanks to Cameron's decision to Veto, we are now the ones holding the strongest cards. If we'd have gone along with the flow then we would be just one small voice in the midst of 26 directionless others.

and make it harder for the crucial decisions to be made.

TJ - Can you give me a single example of a 'decision' actually being taken? Any at all? In all these various overblown summits? All I see is endless procrastination, and a complete inability, or lack of will to actually 'decide' anything at all.

And therein lies the entire problem of the EU in its present state

Fiveundred!!

How on earth do you see that Northernstar. we will just be sidelined from now on and ignored. We hold no cards - we played them all badly at the wrong time and wasted them

walking their donkeys along their billiard smooth motorways that us the UK taxpayer has previously helped to fund.

Glentress anyone? EU money in there

TJ

i) do you accept that the 17 plus can only realistically hope to function by using existing EU facilities and mechanisms

ii) do you accept that, legally, they can only do this with the unanimous agreement of the 27 (ie. including the UK)

iii) can you now see why the 17 plus REALLY need to either concede to our demands on city regulation, or watch their whole house of cards fall.

Now, tell me how we've lost all influence in Europe and have no cards to play at the table again 😆

Were not discussing leaving the EU, for which the UK is a net contributor, this discussion is about forming a new group to defend the Euro.
Basically wanting to bring new rules in to keep the Euro going, within a new structure.

The current EU is not changing.

konabunny - Member

(Let's try not to think too much about the stuff in Scotland, Wales and NI that's been part-funded by the EU).

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=4640

ii) do you accept that, legally, they can only do this with the unanimous agreement of the 27 (ie. including the UK)

Actually on Radio 4 yesterday there was a story that the EU lawyers reckoned this wasn't necessarily the case. i.e. UK's permission might not be required.

Anyway, carry on 🙂

we will just be sidelined from now

What, sidelined from the complete EU shambles that will lead to the unravelling of the Euro? Surely that's a good thing no?

The best thing surely is to allow the whole sorry house of cards to collapse in an orderly way as possible and not try to keep propping up a dead patient with life support.

Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and possibly Italy will all default of their debts. Their economies are basket cases and it's only a matter of time before they default. So why keep on chucking good money after bad?

This is why the Euro can't survive in it's current form. It's because the type of fiscal policy that the southern European countries need is way different to what the slightly more solvent northern European countries need.

A single fiscal policy for the whole of Europe is very much like a doctor having two very different groups of patients. One group with asthma and the other group with terminal cancer. Yet the medicine he gets to treat both groups with must be one and the same. As you can see this this is never going to work for either group.

This is why the UK is better out of this whole mess and remains able to take the medicine that suits our own type of illness.

Just an off the cuff, light hearted remark here.

I know I'm from Stoke so that could cloud the issue, but if I was on the Bridge of the Titannic is there not a chance that I could have spotted the iceberg and steered a course to miss it? If I was on the docks at Portsmouth (Southampton surely?)I would as stated be safe but powerless to do anything.

TandemJeremy - Member
Its so funny watching you guys here - "fog in channel - continent cut off".

Er it's wind today actually and operation stack is likely for the 2nd time this week.

Then if it isn't wind it's French Fishermen blockading Calais, or French technicians Industrial action with the Tunnel.

It's so frequent it rarely even gets reported.

As for you other comment about us not having a card to play, er I think you'll find we have over 60 going on 70 million of them and each and every one of them buys something that comes from Europe very regularly.

France has run a deficit for longer than I can remember, they are also a basket case, it's just attention hasn't really focussed on them yet, but it will, wasn't it one of their banks about to fail during the Chancellors Autumn Statement?

Anyway they're just as ****ed as the rest of Southern Europe and should be parcelled up with the PIGS and head up a Euro 2 which then gets devalued.. Put all the rotten apples in one basket rather than have them dragging the Germans down and influencing them the way they are right now.

cameron wasnt using his 'veto' for the good of britain though he was using it for the good of the city

because its so vital that we protect it
after all it pulled in 300bn in tax between 2002-2008

yet since 2008 has cost us over 1tn in refinancing the banks and underwriting etc

youd almost think that dave was completely in the pocket of a finance sector thats brought us into this mess
and now wants protection from nasty regulation

Just an off the cuff, light hearted remark here.

I know I'm from Stoke so that could cloud the issue, but if I was on the Bridge of the Titannic is there not a chance that I could have spotted the iceberg and steered a course to miss it? If I was on the docks at Portsmouth (Southampton surely?)I would as stated be safe but powerless to do anything.

There must be a little voice in Cameron's head urging him to call an election in the next few months. What he's done in Europe may be popular with his friends in the city, but it's even more popular in large swathes of the country.
For all the desire to 'bring down the coalition', with unelectable Ed hunching over the reins, and the LibDems utterly destroyed in terms of electoral credibility, Labour should be careful what it wishes for.

Ed Balls is being rather quiet on this for a reason. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some leadership moves before too long.

you'd almost think that dave was completely in the pocket of a finance sector thats brought us into this mess and now wants protection from nasty regulation

Thats a very cynical point of view Kimbers. He's been recieving advice on the whole Europe thing anyway

[url= http://newsthump.com/2011/12/09/alex-ferguson-to-advise-david-cameron-on-european-exits-that-delight-a-nation/ ]Daves special adviser[/url]

What he's done in Europe may be popular with his friends in the city, but it's even more popular in large swathes of the country.

however i suppose, unemployment is at a 17 year high and rising, a double dip recession is around the corner, weve had riots, strikes, another oil war, the rest of europe now hating us yet all it took is a bit of anti euro tubthumping from our PM and all of a sudden hes a hero!?

Your analysis of the British electorate appears fundamentally correct...

did anyone see newsnight last night it ended with Emily Maitlis interviewing 3 female economists about their most important financial graphs of 2011

I bet stoner stashed that one in the **** bank 😉
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-16090055 ]
top graphs of 2011[/url]

http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2011/12/10/eurozone-crisis-solved-as-france-and-germany-join-the-pound/

I bet stoner stashed that one in the **** bank

Looks like Angela and Barak have a spy cam installed chez stoner.

[img] [/img]

German cam in need of calibration ?

Ed Balls is being rather quiet on this for a reason. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some leadership moves before too long.

But in any case, the #2 of the opposition never has an incentive to get really stuck in. If the govt really gets it right, it makes #1 look good. If the govt messes it up, the #1 gets the credit. Better if PM calls an election, wins, means #1 gets the nudge for losing the election and is replaced by #2, then PM ****s it all up, meaning #2 (now #1) gets elected.

There is a split in Labour over teh EU - I suspect staying quiet and non controversial is a good move

id say its more likely that labour are wary of little englanders and dont wont dail fail/murdoch papers/torygraph on their arses

That as well

martinhutch - Member
There must be a little voice in Cameron's head urging him to call an election in the next few months. What he's done in Europe may be popular with his friends in the city, but it's even more popular in large swathes of the country.
For all the desire to 'bring down the coalition', with unelectable Ed hunching over the reins, and the LibDems utterly destroyed in terms of electoral credibility, Labour should be careful what it wishes for.

The date of the next General Election at 7 May 2015. There are also two ways in which an election could be triggered before the end of the five-year term:

1) if a motion of no confidence is passed and no alternative government is found
2) if a motion for an early general election is agreed either by at least two-thirds of the House or without division

Unlikely we're going to see either of those two scenarios playing out as the LibDems know it would be electoral suicide.

but more likely that there is a split in the party, as there is a split in the country, in the EU, it seems that everywhere there is a near 50:50 split over the EU.

I dont think one party will be any differend from the rest of the country.

If the govt really gets it right, it makes #1 look good.

I meant, of course, it makes the #1 look BAD.

TandemJeremy - Member
Teamhurtmoe - you claim to be pro europe - but actually you don't want the EU that we have. Well thats tough - [b]you either play by the rules or you don't play. You cannot cherry pick the bits you want and not have to have the bits you don't.[/b]

TJ - you are brilliant, bloody brilliant. Peter Cooke in his hey-day wouldn't have used such delicious irony. It has taken me months to realise what your internet purpose it. Today, I have found the answer!! You are a master at it.

But you are completely correct - I certainly don't want the EU we have. It is a structural disaster that is failing everyone. I would like to see a Europe that works. It gives me no pleasure to watch this catastrophe unfold.

Kona - I think you are correct with Balls Up, but at times he does his best to hide how intelligent his academic record suggests he is. Well Oxford and the Oxford Conservative Association must have rubbed off on him. He is being the most sensible of all - keep quiet, keep your head down and wait for the correct moment to strike. Watch your back Wallace, its not your brother you need to watch, its the evil duo!!

JY - I was joshing about the gov/less public sector!! Excuse me, I still shoudn't be putting words into your mouth (even in jest)!!

The labour party aren't saying anything because Wet Ed has established a series of focus groups in key marginal constituencies, and policy forums amongst fleetingly fashionable think-tanks. These are due to report back around June next year. He'll know what he's meant to think then. Once they've told him. Oh... and another focus group has run through the conclusions. Obviously. And if no-one in the press office has any objections*

* This of course depends on there being no major developments on the issue during that time. In which case some fresh focus groups and policy forums will be established

Ah yes Druidh - had forgotten about the Fixed Term Parliament Act. Cam may be wishing he'd not bothered with that now...

does it trump the royal perogative as the crown calls elections and the crown asks someone to form a government - surely we have a constitutional expert on here to answer this one

Teamhurtmore - actually for a great many folk this EU works well. You cannot have a single market without safeguards such as the social chapter or else you get a race to the bottom.

its stupid to pretend that we can have a the single market and nothing else - this is not on offer.

We either join in, play by the rules and try to influence things in the way we want or we snipe from he sidelines.

The EU you want - a playground for unfettered capitalism is not going to happen.

TJ - I have not argued against any specific safeguards nor have I (ever) argued for unfettered capitalism (although I enjoy reading how often that is assumed!!). But the current structure is economically inept and politically dishonest, so I will continue to argue strongly against it, while remaining pro-Europe.

But it is extremely naive for anyone to pretend that the EU plays by the rules. Every leader around that table was focused on national interest. Europe comes second - after all Europe doesn't vote for them, domestic audiences do. And the rules are not synonymous with deficits - ask the Germans, they ignored those rules and others didn't. And who is in crisis now?

Teamhurtmore - I thought you were against the social chapter?

Are they the EU regulations involved when striking up conversations with people at the bar?

The only thing I have categorically stated TJ is that I am anti a single currency. And that is simply from my training as an economist.

teamhurtmore - Member

Ask yourself why The Guardian is quoting the Tories overtaking Labour in the polls

You really need to deal with your obsession with the Guardian newspaper's opinion/comment teamhurtmore. Just because the Guardian says something doesn't mean that everyone should stop what they're doing and listen. In fact I find ignoring the Guardian's editorial policy works rather well.

And I find it unbelievable how some Tory voters appear to be wetting themselves with excitement at the sight of the first opinion poll [i][b]since last year[/b][/i] which gives the Tories a lead ..... a [u]2%[/u] lead ffs.

One opinion poll does not signal a change in the game plan, and it betrays just how desperate you are if you think it does. The tracker poll/poll of polls has had Labour well ahead of the Tories ever since the general election.

Ask yourself why the government did not enjoy the traditional "honeymoon period" which all governments can rightly expect to have after a general election.

And as for all the excitement generated because Cameron has heroically made a stand for Britain - he has done no such thing. He has simply committed the UK to a European Union but with less influence. Big ****ing deal.

Even the halfwit Nigel Farage of UKIP recognises the futility of pointless political posturing......you would expect him to be cheering Cameron instead of claiming that we are now in a worse position.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16111356

TBF, Farage wants to paint it as bad as possible in order to help persuade folk it's better to leave.

Ernie - where is the smiley? Otherwise your opening gambit is a FAIL. If you go back to the post you are quoting from, you will see that I quoted three newspapers - FT (broadly pro-Europe), The Guardian (pro-Europe) and the DT (euro sceptic). So I went for a range of papers to show that a specific point made by another poster was in fact unsupportable. So please don't paint me as merely a Guardian reader! Ditto, the opinion poll stuff. Others post on here that the stance taken by DC was (almost universally) unpopular and yet that simply is not shown up in the specific polls (Times) or the general opinion polls. So it is perfectly fair to point that out.

Even the halfwit Nigel Farage of UKIP recognises the futility of pointless political posturing

Time to create a book for these lines - that is another brilliant one!!!

So please don't paint me as merely a Guardian reader!

You are clearly not merely a Guardian reader. But you subscribe to this commonly held nonsensical perception that the Guardian is some sort of left-wing bible, and that by quoting the Guardian you are offering the "left-wing" alternative argument.

The Guardian is a Tony Blair-loving/LibDem-loving rag for the self-gratification of the waffling bleeding-heart middle-classes. It is the holy water which blesses and consecrates the heart-burnings of the after-dinner activist/pontificator. It's one and overwhelming redeeming quality is that it is packed with news. Which is why I read it it 🙂

Ernie - well he has predominately been arguing with TJ and it is TJ's political bible and I would even have the temerity to suggest that you might have said this in the past.

Ok Ernie, I will add Socialist Worker to my bookmarks (plus any other suggestions??). Interestingly today they say:

The robber barons of Europe have fallen out—but their rows are an expression of a much deeper crisis. They face the prospect of economic catastrophe. Even the powerful economies of France and Germany are now threatened with credit rating downgrades. This has caused panic across the ruling elite. Politicians have imposed unelected governments on Italy and Greece. [b]But the strikes there show that people won’t take austerity lying down. “Fiscal unity”—the drive to centralise the imposition of austerity across Europe—is the latest attempt to make ordinary people pay for[/b] a crisis caused by bankers.

Funnily enough that ties in with my "predictions"/ guesses as to what might happen in the future. It will be social factors that may well bring this all to a head. The SW talks for the ordinary people, but the reality is that it will also include the middle classes in the European periphery.

Interesting to see Merkel losing one of her coalition partners today!

p.s. I actually used the Guardian today because I perceive it as pro-European rather than left-wing but ho hum! Is the Labour Party left wing? Interesting that EM didn't respond to DC's jibe when he accused him of being left wing recently. Why was that, I wonder?

Ok Ernie, I will add Socialist Worker to my bookmarks (plus any other suggestions??).

Yeah right, there's no need to be silly and go from the wishy-washy fence-sitting position of the Guardian straight over to an ultra-leftist instant revolution position.

You could have found a more mainstream left-wing perspective in the Morning Star, which like me is moderate, sensible, and pragmatic.

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/113058

BTW did you notice the marxist quote which I cunningly shoehorned into my last post after a slight alteration to make it more topical ? 😀

Marx's "holy water" - sorry I missed that, but nice quote. I will have to watch your posts with more vigor in future. Have you ever worked for MI5?

Rather worryingly I did spend 5-10 mins browsing the SW website, but didn't add it to my bookmark!! 😉

Ernie - don't you just love the last few para's of the article on the link. So if you posted that on here, how many pages? Would it make 20? Zulu vs TJ - ding, ding!!!

Ernie - don't you just love the last few para's of the article on the link.

Actually no I didn't. I thought it was rather puerile and pointless as it was not really directly linked to the leader/comment. Indeed I was surprised that it was included as it's not typical of the Morning Star's editorials, which I invariably find excellent and straight to the point. You can make the case against the EU without necessarily making the case for socialism - stick to the topic I would say. And leave the case for socialism to another discussion. I actually hesitated posting the link because of the last paragraph.

Agree Ernie - I forgot to add the smiley to "don't you just love..." 😉

Looks like CMD hasn't made the Euro isolationist faux pas that TJ is predicting.

From the [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/uk-still-has-a-role-in-the-eu-says-angela-merkel-6276843.html ]Indy[/url]

Suggestions that David Cameron has left Britain isolated in Europe by deploying his veto were downplayed today by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who insisted the UK will continue to play an important role in the EU.

She's also quoted in the Gruinad

[Britain] is a reliable partner for Europe not just in questions of foreign and security policy … [it] is also this partner in many other questions – in competitiveness, in the internal market, for trade, for climate protection," she said.

Great at the moment sending more Sterling into my Spanish bank account 😆

Was interesting reading this link

[url= http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/budget.pdf ]Open Europe[/url]

This too is interesting

[url= http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/BritainoutsidetheEU.html ]Britain Outside The EU[/url]

think it's more a case of we're not the bad guys, from Merkel, look how magnanimous we can be. come on in the water is fine 😀

[i]She indicated she has not given up hope of eventual UK involvement in the new compact, telling the German Parliament that it remains open for all EU members to join and it should be merged with the official treaties as soon as possible.[/i]

think it's more a case of we're not the bad guys, from Merkel, look how magnanimous we can be. come on in the water is fine

and please save me from the French

Teh BBC - that bastion of socialism and europhilia reports

Euro crisis: Europe reacts with anger

European commentators have reacted with anger at Britain's decision not to join a tax and budget pact to tackle the eurozone

Alexander Graf Lambsdorff, head of the Germany's FDP group, part of the European Liberals, goes as far as to say it was "a mistake to let the British into the EU".

German Christian Democrat MEP Elmar Brok, foreign policy spokesman for the centre-right in the European parliament, echoed his sentiment: "If you're not ready to abide by the rules, you'd do better to keep your mouth shut."

"And this dirty game that the British are playing - wanting to stay with one foot in and one foot out of Europe - risks collapsing the entire system. London must be either in, or out. But they simply cannot sabotage everything."

The country's main financial daily, Il Sole 24 Ore, calls the move a "British bluff" which leaves the country isolated.

And plenty more quotes -make no mistake - the anger is real and the UK is isolated on the fringes like never before. the damage done is huge

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16114902

Germany wants Britian back in the 'club' so it doesnt have to foot the bill alone when its time for more bail-outs....which will happen shortly i'm sure.

Better to be on the outside of a crumbling economic experiment than locked into it.

Trying to harmonise economies as different as Germany and Greece was never going to work....but with the EU it always seems to be a hurried and immature numbers game, no real thought as to who is joining and what they offer, just an assumption that more members must be a good thing....even if they come to the EU with a crack pot economy.

I see Albania and Macedonia are being lined up as potential new members (seriously), anybody think they are bringing anything to the EU?....the reality is that countries like this want their place at the table for what they can get out of the EU....and the same will happen to them as seems to happen with all new member states, there will be a temporary boost to their economy during which they will spend more than they create and will be left with a debt for the wealthier countries to pay off....thats why Germany wants the UK back in.

The sooner they Euro is knocked on the head the better.

the same will happen to them as seems to happen with all new member states, there will be a temporary boost to their economy during which they will spend more than they create and will be left with a debt for the wealthier countries to pay off....thats why Germany wants the UK back in.

Slovakia, Slovenia and Estonia are the only "new" EU members to be in the Eurozone.

At the end of 2010, the lowest ratios of government debt to GDP were recorded in [b]Estonia (6.6%)[/b], Bulgaria (16.2%), Luxembourg (18.4%), Romania (30.8%), [b]Slovenia (38.0%)[/b], Lithuania (38.2%), the Czech Republic (38.5%) and Sweden (39.8%). Fourteen Member States had government debt ratios higher than 60% of GDP in 2010: Greece (142.8%), Italy (119.0%), Belgium (96.8%), Ireland (96.2%), Portugal (93.0%), Germany (83.2%), France (81.7%), Hungary (80.2%), the United Kingdom (80.0%), Austria (72.3%), Malta (68.0%), the Netherlands (62.7%), Cyprus (60.8%) and Spain (60.1%).

and

Eurostat said the largest government deficits in percentage of GDP were recorded in Ireland (-32.4%), Greece (-10.5%), the United Kingdom (-10.4%), Spain (-9.2%), Portugal (-9.1%), Poland (-7.9%), [b]Slovakia (-7.9%)[/b], Latvia (-7.7%), Lithuania (-7.1%) and France (-7.0%). The lowest deficits were recorded in Luxembourg (-1.7%), Finland (-2.5%) and Denmark (-2.7%). [b]Estonia (0.1%) registered a slight government surplus in 2010[/b] and Sweden (0.0%) was in balance.

The Eurozone debt crisis is an "old" member problem, not a "new" member problem. PIIGS are all old members. The new members are neither big enough or ****less enough to cause the Euro systemic problems.

Neither are Eurozone countries paying off each others' debt. They are restructuring it, true, but they're not paying it off. The Greek state will pay off its debts (eventually).

TJ over the next few days anyone with access to the Internet will be able to find quotes to support their respective positions. So what? Well very little. There are two powerful forces at work - a long run project outlined yesterday by Merkel towards a full fiscal union (in which she hopes GB will play a part) which individuals can make their own minds up on and the short term economic, political AND social forces that threaten the break up of the current project. As sound as it is to outline LR strategic objectives, failure to address the lack of foundations will result in the house falling down in the meantime.

Instead of all the posturing debate should focus on two key questions:

1. Do populations desire full monetary and fiscal union with the implications that has for the national v pooled sovereignty debate?

2. Do populations support the full transfer of funds from surplus to deficit countries that such a plan requires. This is a crucial bit that remains out of the open debate but which the german and Dutch will find very hard to swallow

The rest is simply a side show to keep 24 hour news ( working) and markets (not working) happy. IMHO of course.

Teamhurtmore - the critical thing you ignore is that Camerons actions have made the situation worse in general ( by making solutions harder to find), have annoyed the rest of the EU so that they will bypass him in future and have not done what he claims it did.

This is no sideshow - this is absolutely critical for the future of the UK.

TJ, what has happened in my view is camerons mistake had highlighted the divisions between states a lot more, it may be that what is needed and what i think will happen is that the infighting between memeber states needs to come out in the open and the motives for different countries need to come out in the open, france for example calling for us giving up the rebate, because technically they pay for most of it.

I think a lot of open bickering is needed before it can calm down and get resolved with everyone knowing really how we feel about our neighbours.

have annoyed the rest of the EU so that they will bypass him in future

Here's a quote for you, TJ

beyond doubt for me that Great Britain will in future continue to be an important partner in the European Union

I presume that whoever said that is far less significant than Graf Lambsdorff or Elmar Brok though.

TJ - you know you may be right about DC's actions. Frankly I think all the major players made the situations worse. As I said before, a game of chicken with nobody jumping?? BUT, I think Sancho is also correct - the law of unintended consequences. By (being forced to stand) standing up to Sarkozy and Merkel, he may well raise the debate to the real issues. Indeed this is why Wallace is so uncomfortable at the moment and DC has had an easy-ish ride at home - Wallace cant answer the straight question - "would you have signed up?" - every time, this is ducked by the "being at the table argument" which is a red herring. If the real issues remain unresolved then the "being at the table on the titanic" analogy is fitting.

Sorry, but like all these summits, this was a sideshow (notice how many column inches and media time it is receiving now). There is an economic, political and social reality playing out in the mainstream and a series of fruitless summits playing out in parallel.

The EU will not by-pass Europe - they cannot afford to pass on the GB budget contributions. It will all be hot air and posturing - particularly by Sarkozy.

And with exquisite timing we're treated to another one of the architects of the Euro covering himself in glory

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16194089 ]quelle surprise![/url]

So... incompetent AND corrupt. Yip. Glad we're on board?