[Closed] Cameron kicks EU in the nuts - right decision?

There has been stamp duty on shares in the UK for decades.....yet no-one pays it. Go figure.

I think it was a poor decision to say no outright - far better would have been to go along with it for now and then see the lay of the land as it progresses - I can't see this getting though all the governments without some significant changes. That said, Cameron clearly felt he needed to play to the Eurosceptic wing of the party unfortunately.

But I've got to agree with aracer - As usual it seems that nothing will make some people happier than if the worst possible case scenario happens just so that they can say 'told you so'.

400!

glitchy bump (mods / sw people pleases fix!)

Seems pretty clear to me both in whats now being said, the body language at the time and subsequently that he overplayed his hand both internationally and domestically.

So Nick Clegg didn't turn up to the House of Commons on Monday because according to him he would have been a "distraction". Bless him, I sure David Cameron is most appreciative for Clegg's kind, thoughtful, and accommodating, consideration.

And I'm sure all those poor unfortunate souls who put their trust in the LibDems at the last general election are also eternally gratefully that Nick Clegg didn't distract attention away from David Cameron, and that he buggered off somewhere quiet.

Never in recent history has one man done so much to discredit politics and politicians. The two-faced lying self-serving opportunist makes New Labour appear as mere amateurs.

9 December 2011 :

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/dec/09/clegg-cameron-veto-eu-summit ]Clegg defends Cameron's use of veto at EU summit[/url]

Quote :

[b][i]"Deputy prime minister says he regrets breakdown of talks, but backs Cameron's decision to use veto"[/i][/b]

11 December 2011 :

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nick-clegg/8949920/Nick-Clegg-attacks-Camerons-EU-treaty-veto-as-bad-for-jobs-and-families.html ]Nick Clegg attacks Cameron's EU treaty veto as bad for jobs and families[/url]

Quote :

[b][i]"Britain faces being reduced to the status of a “pygmy” nation after David Cameron’s decision to veto a new EU treaty, Nick Clegg has warned."[/i][/b]

Beyond contempt.

I never believed for one second the various banks threats to up sticks and shift to *insert country/city here*.

And its nob all to do with economics. London is one of the most vibrant cultural modern cities in the world. Especially if you're wadded! There's no way they're going anywhere really.

Despite the problems London has had, it's still a pretty cheap, easy and fast place to get things done in business to serve Europe or EMEA. It's not worth detailing them because you (not you individually, Binners, I mean "one") either get it or you don't. Dubai has a lot of people working there despite it not being very vibrant or cultured (and I say this as one of the few people that likes Dubai).

There's a degree of currency risk involved when you do business in London but serve mostly non-GBP markets but it might well be cancelled out by the certainty and convenience that London offers. And in any case, many (most?) EMEA markets are effectively USD markets anyway.

But that "vibrancy" (is that a word?) and "culture" isn't unrelated to the massive financial sector - if it weren't for the money lenders and associated trades that bring people/ideas/technology in from all over the shop, there wouldn't be half of those vibrant and cultural things happening in the first place. Hoxton, Shoreditch and Bishopsgate all depend on each other for existence.

This could be fantastic for the UK, we sit on the sidelines watching them drag each other into the void with ever higher taxes and impossible to meet regulations, and laugh whilst saying "told you so"!

9 December 2011 :

Clegg defends Cameron's use of veto at EU summit

Quote :

"Deputy prime minister says he regrets breakdown of talks, but backs Cameron's decision to use veto"

11 December 2011 :

Nick Clegg attacks Cameron's EU treaty veto as bad for jobs and families

Quote :

"Britain faces being reduced to the status of a “pygmy” nation after David Cameron’s decision to veto a new EU treaty, Nick Clegg has warned."

I've previously stuck up for Clegg on here, but he's really played a blinder this time, hasn't he? I don't think he has any idea any more what to say - what a wonderful job he's done of trying to please both sceptic and phile, and just succeeding in displeasing both.

Well, listening to Jocasta who works at HSBC last night on the train home, she's going skiing 4 times this winter, isn't going to do anything at work between now and Xmas except eat and drink and go down to Devon at New Year with Conor. She doesn't seem fussed about what OurmateDave did last week.
I'm sure we'll all be fine, except that even the Evening Standard has turned against OurmateDave, I never thought I'd see that.

JMBarroso - Not a Member
Last week, most heads of state or government of the member states showed their willingness to move ahead with European integration towards a fiscal stability union. They showed that they want more Europe, not less.

Well I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Of course they might just be worried about paying the bills, and such loss of sovereignty is a price they're prepared to pay. It is impressive the inability of some of these chaps to see things from more than one perspective.

So the storm dies quickly in the Uk today. Meanwhile in rest of Europe:

1. Four non-€zone countries arguing that acceptance depends on exact wording
2. Concern over whether terms binding just for €zone or all countries (no surprise there!)
3. Irish opposition calling for referendum
4. Minority Dutch gov under pressure for agreeing the deal
5. Hungary want to keep control over corporate taxation
6. Sweden unhappy about transaction tax (minority gov as well)
7. Denmark's PM under pressure from own party

The world nowadays looks very much like the theoretical world that economists have traditionally used to examine the costs and benefits of monetary unions. The eurozone members’ loss of ability to devalue their exchange rates is a major cost. Governments’ efforts to promote wage cuts, or to engineer them by driving their countries into recession, cannot substitute for exchange-rate devaluation. Placing the entire burden of adjustment on deficit countries is a recipe for disaster.

A Summit to the Death, Kevin O'Rouke, Oxford University

Thats right teamhurtmore - apart from Cameron getting roundly criticised from all direction including the civil service, the foreign office all politicians and commentators bar the eurosceptics, Loads of foreign media and ploiticians

its becoming more and more apparent just how stupid he was - badly prepared, ill informed on the issues, self defeating.

Its really one of the worst gaffes for decades - especially as he fails in what he wanted to do. He has actually made it worse as now we will have no say in the regulations that will still be applied to the UK

Barroso has blown apart Dave's main justification that he was "defending the single market" by saying his six-point demand threatened it - and he, Barroso, tabled a compromise talking about protecting the single market and, specifically, financial services. The pent-up venom towards the UK is also now spewing out in the European Parliament - including from anglophiles.

Sharon Bowles, a Lib Dem MEP and the chair of the European parliament's Economic and Monetary Affairs committee, has issued a strong statement criticising David Cameron's negotiations last week.

Bowles is under pressure, the FT reported this morning, and may become the victim of an anti-UK backlash in Brussels, so this piece of positioning will not harm her at all:

"I abhor Cameron's use of the veto.

His demands were not 'moderate'. They were a mix of attempts to reverse agreed positions disguised by inaccurate invocations of conclusions from regular meetings of Finance ministers and interference in current legislative dossiers. It was a power grab, reneging on agreed legislation. Crafted as a wolf in sheep's clothing, it may have fooled some in the UK, but not us.

Asked to save the euro, Mr Cameron gave in to his eurosceptic party. He has jeopardised UK interests, including those of the City, when there was nothing in the European Council agreement threatening the UK.

After all, what was the purpose of the Vickers report; of higher capital requirements; and of tighter UK financial market rules, other than to respond to UK taxpayers´ demand for a safer City of London. We should be following that path alongside our European partners in harmony, not in antagonism.

In this crisis, there is no worse time for Cameron to have turned his back on Europe. His veto has made the summit result harder to deliver, more intergovernmental, and less democratically accountable.

The European commission has underlined the negative impact of David Cameron's summit gambit by pledging that the City's financial institutions would be subject to new regulations hatched in Brussels.

Emphasising the EU's determination to dismiss Cameron's abortive attempt to secure exemptions for the City, Olli Rehn, the commission vice-president in charge of economic and monetary affairs, was scathing about the prime minister's campaign. This was rejected by the Brussels summit on Friday, triggering a British veto of German plans to anchor a new eurozone fiscal union in a renegotiated Lisbon treaty.

Cameron's move isolated Britain in Europe as seldom before, producing weekend headlines and comment across Europe that the UK was on the way out of the EU.

"We want a strong and constructive Britain in Europe, and we want Britain to be at the centre of Europe, and not on the sidelines," said Rehn. "If [Cameron's] move was intended to prevent bankers and financial corporations in the [City of London] from being regulated, that is not going to happen. We must all draw lessons from the financial crisis, and that goes for the financial sector as well."

TJ - your missing the point. Many of the leaders coming back from the weekend are under severe pressure. One for not signing up, others for signing up and others because the population know that this treaty is a fudge. Barrosso hardly counts, given his role. What positive contribution has he made throughout this process? And a Liberal MEP is anti-Cameron.....er, yes? Your merely quoting people who you would expect to say, what they say. Look instead at the domestic political reaction across Europe - I know Europhiles dont like it, but listen to what the populations are saying.

Meanwhile, 24 hour news has moved on to the next incredible, amazing, dramatic story!!

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/8954725/Election-would-finish-us-Nick-Clegg-tells-Lib-Dems.html ]Election would finish us, Nick Clegg tells Lib Dems[/url]

Quote :

[b][i]The Liberal Democrats would cease to exist as a party if they brought down the Coalition over Europe and triggered an early election, Nick Clegg warned his MPs last night.

He said: “I don’t want to be the last leader of the Liberal Democrats by provoking a general election today.” [/i][/b]

The Tories have got him over a barrel

Yes mate, you ****ed up big time.

[img] [/img]

And sooner or later a general election will come.

Still 'til then, the failed politician can live a life of luxury at the taxpayer's expense. Nice work if you can get it.

No teamhutmore - you don't want to see the crucial point.

Cameron has made a huge blunder - he is being slated by the foreign office, his own people in Strasbourg, the president of the commission and all other leaders.

He has not achieved what he claims he has done - indeed the reverse. He had no need to use the veto. he is badly weakened by this nad now has no credibility in the EU

So, basically TJ, all the people who are currently slating Cameron's approach seem to rely on the continued existence of a cosy relationship with the EU for their job, expense package and positions of power - interesting that 😉

Funny to see certain MEP's suggesting that they should restrict our rebate, when we're net contributors to the EU coffers of about 6 billion a year...

Just think TJ - if we kept that six billion, there would be no need for domestic budget cuts 😆

Cameron has made a huge blunder - he is being slated by the foreign office, his own people in Strasbourg, the president of the commission and all other leaders.

we will have no say in the regulations that will still be applied to the UK

Except that's not actually true is it?

[i]So he's being "slated" by civil servants who should STFU and leave policy decisions to politicians.[/i]

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Blood ]Oh really[/url]

Cameron has made a huge blunder - he is being slated by the foreign office, his own people in Strasbourg, the president of the commission and all other leaders.

So what? In your rabid hatred of the coalition you have completely lost any sense of proportion and will try and inflate anything to try to make a crisis out of a drama.

Nothing Cameron has done has prevented the Eurozone going for fiscal union or whatever half arsed fudge they agreed to last week. Do you think they can impose financial regulation against the will of a UK government whilst, as it has been pointed out above, we contribute net billions to the EU, please get real. All the criticism of Cameron is a smokescreen trying to cover up the failure of the attempt at full fiscal union made by the Germans and resisted by the French- two nations fighting for their own interests just as much as Cameron was fighting for Britain's

[i]Do you think they can impose financial regulation against the will of a UK government whilst, as it has been pointed out above, we contribute net billions to the EU, please get real. [/i]

yes, as financial regulation is a majority voting matter within the EU, and has been pointed out all over the press, the UK has always carried the vote in the Past. As for the future hmmmm ?

Zulu-Eleven - Member
So, basically TJ, all the people who are currently slating Cameron's approach seem to rely on the continued existence of a cosy relationship with the EU for their job, expense package and positions of power - interesting that

Funny to see certain MEP's suggesting that they should restrict our rebate, when we're net contributors to the EU coffers of about 6 billion a year...

Just think TJ - if we kept that six billion, there would be no need for domestic budget cuts

Sadly, none of us can continue to afford the whole bloody EU experiment, there are hundreds of thousands suffering to keep technocrats in their unelected office on board the Gravy Train, it's over, done, it has to be reformed, this is the first stage. If they don't then there will be a bloody Southern European spring on a scale that'll make the Arab spring look like a tea party.

Oh really

So you guys think that being excluding from future decision making that has a significant effect on us is a good thing, that having 26 other EU countries united against us is a good thing? that going in to negotiations without proper preparation and knowledge is a good thing?

Evenon what Cameron claimed to have used the veto for he was wrong adn by doing so has weakened our future position.

This is so damaging to the UK both long and short term.

Anything that upsets the Foreign Office, EU commissioners, LibDem MEPs and TJ just has to be a good thing.

All of the above wanted us in the Euro, wrong then, wrong now.

And the Tories pull ahead in the polls.....

And the Tories pull ahead in the polls..

That will be a combination of:-

Right-wing press
Tory lies
Xenophobes

😉

mcboo - 40% of our trade is with the EU

Are you serious in that yo think its s good thing that future regulation of (much of) Londons financial transactions will be done without UK input? Don't be mistaken - this will happen. No compromises will be offered.

and the torries pull ahead in the polls ..........they were behind in the polls - against ed millibland. hahahahahahaha !

Olli Rehn, the commission vice-president in charge of economic and monetary affairs,

We want a strong and constructive Britain in Europe, and we want Britain to be at the centre of Europe, and not on the sidelines....If [Cameron's] move was intended to prevent bankers and financial corporations in the [City of London] from being regulated, that is not going to happen.

Virginie Maisonneuve, global head of equities at Schroders investment management,

I am not sure it is in the UK's interests in terms of costs or administration. We don't know what decisions might be made in the future that could hurt the City if the UK is not part of discussions.

TJ quoting people that agree with you isnt an argument that is going to convince anyone.....it isnt even an argument.

For every 14 people in the UK that share your view I can show you 60 that dont.

However it does show that Camerons veto had the opposite effect from what was claimed while isolating the UK in Europe

No, it shows that someone in charge of the financial affairs of the EU (who by rights should have some very searching questions to answer regarding those same financial affairs) doesn't like the fact the someone disagrees with him.

Does anyone think that all these EU leaders/flunkys etc criticizing Cameron might just be doing it as a smokescreen to hide the fact that they don't seem to be doing anything about the underlying crisis in the Eurozone?

Does anyone think that all these EU leaders/flunkys etc criticizing Cameron might just be doing it as a smokescreen to hide the fact that they don't seem to be doing anything about the underlying crisis in the Eurozone?

(300,000 financial profesionals in London raise their hands as one)

Alex Salmond BBC R4 on joining the Euro "....a long term possibility....if the conditions were right". Otherwise staying in the pound.

whither independance?

Salmond - "If Scotland becomes independent, we will be in the same position with regard to the euro as we are now: we will be part of the sterling area and I would propose we will remain part of the sterling area until such time it was in our interest to do something else," he said.

Joining the euro was "a long-term possibility, of course, but you would do it if economic circumstances were right and with the assent of the Scottish people".

Hahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa!

TeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeJaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!!!!!!!!

And once again mcboo you show your lack of understanding. Scottish independence is not about xenophobia and being inward looking. Its an outward looking internationalist stance which is why Camerons actions this week have given the SNP a significant boost and increased the numbers wanting independence.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

40% of our trade is with the EU

Whats that got to do with anything?

We remain part of the EU and constitutionally bound by EU free trade agreements - this has nothing to do with the EU, its about a completley different "17 plus" fiscal pact.

Even better - the 17 plus have realised that their entire house of cards will fail, unless they get agreement from the UK to use the EU institutions! they need to come back to us with their tail between their legs, or ot all falls apart 🙂

So now Cameron holds the trump card - he can turn round and say "fine, we'll let you use the EU institutions to police your new project, but [b]only[/b] if you accept the guarantees which you rejected at the last meeting 😆

Sam Leith on Sky News this morning commenting on CallMeDave's 2-point jump in the polls... "This has happened because the electorate quite like the idea that Cameron basically, went over to Europe and told them to shove it." 😆

glitchy bump

Its so funny watching you guys here - "fog in channel - continent cut off".

Its like Alice in wonderland

Oh Jeremy......joining the Euro has been a central plank of SNP policy for 10yrs, Salmond just performed a 180-pirouette live on national radio.

Eh? the SNP policy remains exactly as it always has been.

So - are you the red queen today?

I know who's the mad hatter...

Eh? the SNP policy remains exactly as it always has been.

Here we go. TJ fingers in ears. "NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH!!!!!!!!"

so after all the bluff and nonsense what's changed.
business continues as before, trade is not affected, its business as usual and a bunch of idiots in governments across europe and the Uk start making pointless threats and name calling

meanwhile the Euro drops in value and my holiday at christmas is now 10% cheaper than when I booked it yay, and lots of Euros for my pound for my Morzine trip. yay.

McBoo in fantasy land - a new pantomime. 🙂 Staring McBoo, teamhurtmore and as the red queen - zulu

I know you find an internationalist outward looking philosophy hard to unerstand.

SNP policy on the Euro has always been this. Its entirely consistent.

TJ
how can the SNP be outward looking when all they want to do is protect Scotland and pull up the draw bridge with the UK, they simply want to be away from England to be a little Scottish island, living on deluded dreams of oil revenue.

Sancho - do some reading on it. I ain't going to get into a debate.

One key point is that at the moment Scotland has no voice in the EU. A future independent Scotland would have.

Why should we give the SNP the choice? Why not expel scotland from the union and see how well they'd cope as a little european vassel state? At a stroke we could rid ourselves of the scottish contamination of UK politcs!

TJ - you are a laugh and frankly a bit of an enigma. I can't work out if your Internet persona is (to continue the pantomime theme) deliberately hammed-up for effect and to continue some lively debate (I guess more likely) or you are simply massively misguided and naive on these issues (I hope less likely). But you are getting in an awful mess here.

Go and read front page of FT, Guardian business section, Telgraph comments page (yes I know that will be hard) and read what is being written. Look at the political mess all these politicians are in because the population know that everyone got this weekend wrong and spectaculary so. Ask yourself why The Guardian is quoting the Tories overtaking Labour in the polls, ask yourself why Ed Balls Up is so spectacularly quiet (he shows some understanding here), ask yourself why Italy is paying record high rates to fund itself today. And then step back and think about things for just a moment.

I am not anti-Euro. On e contrary I appreciate the vital importance that Europe plays in our economic and social wellbeing. But I am angered by the politicians in ability to grasp what is happening her, the scaremongering stories, the lack of progress with each "summit to end all summits" and the absurdity that is a fixed exchange rate mechanism. So I find the little Englander perspective as unpalatable as the crap coming out from Barroso, Von Rumpey Pumpey etc.

ask yourself why Ed Balls Up is so spectacularly quiet (he shows some understanding here)

Because he is clueless.

One key point is that at the moment Scotland has no voice in the EU. A future independent Scotland would have.

ask yourself why Ed Balls Up is so spectacularly quiet (he shows some understanding here)

Because he is clueless.

Not true....Balls isnt stupid, he doesnt want to get on the wrong side of the argument, knows where the public is on this.

Balls isn't stupid, just inept.

Teamhurtmore - I just have a very different view to yours - from different place with a different set of values.

You seem to me to be rabidly anti EU in all forms and how you cannot see how poorly Cameron has played this I find funny.

He is completley isolated from large parts of his own party, from his coalition partners, from all otehr EU politicians, from the foreign office, from the EU commisiion. I have never seen concerted criticism from so many places of a politician before.

He is massivly weakened by this and has done long term damage to the UK

He had no need to veto, the veto will not do what he claims it would. All he has done is isolated the UK and reduced its influence to virtually zero. The foreign office and the UK representatives in Europe are frantically trying to build some bridges and undo the damage.

TJ, earlier...

[img] [/img]

a voice in europe, its like shouting down the LHC as much good it will do.

Christ on a *ing bendybus Uncle Jezza!! A tartan one if you like. Does [b]EVERYTHING[/b] revolve around bloody Scottish Independence? Right now the UK is a minor irritant/irrelevance to whats going on in the EU. What does that make an independent Scotland?

The one thing that has been mentioned repeatedly is that through all the talk of CMD using the veto, one thing isn't being talked about.

The EU has had 8 major emergency summits so far this year. [b]8![/b] And in amongst all this posturing and elaborate lunches, they have achieved the sum total of * all!!! They have put precisely nothing/nowt/zip/nada in place that has done the slightest thing to defuse the financial apocalypse looming ever closer the horizon.

I'd like to raise a practical question too. Seeing as the 26 countries no longer constitute the actual 'EU', and are a new, seperate grouping of countries - where are they going to have their meetings?

I await the Sarkozy proposal for a new EU funded, £20billion, 26 member complex near Nice as the new venue. And in all honesty - would you be surprised?

Binners - Mcboo raised Scotland

TJ - thanks you have cleared it all up. It's the pantomime dame, ham it up approach. I get it now. It helps to explain how you can completely miss my final point above - you can be pro-Europe and stil ant what is going on here. Indeed perhaps the only positive thing from this weekend is the fact that finally the EU bureaucrats and politicians may finally wake up from their Sleeping Beauty approach and actually do something meaningful. Whonwould have thought that DC would have played the part of the Prince - unintendedly of course!!!

Binners - Mcboo raised Scotland

Thats true. It's the only thing he's right on.

He pandered to the masses and the right wing and he has achieved some political success with his rhetoric and his stance but he has not achieved his goals

He now cannot prevent the 26 making rules to trump his line in the sand or adversely affect us - do you think they may have an axe to grind with us and wont try and retaliate?
How arsey he want to continue being in all honesty I dont know
This has more to do with politics [ pandering to euroseceptics and avoiding a referendum] than it does about economics.

He ha sa point though most folk here [ UK] hate Europe and will happily bite their nose of to spite their face [ like TJ allegedly would for Scottish Independence]
People are making emotive decisions here not rational ones.

He is completley isolated from large parts of his own party,

Definition of "large parts" being Ken Clarke and Heseltine and no-one else.

from his coalition partners, from all otehr EU politicians, from the foreign office, from the EU commisiion.

ALL other European politicians? LibDems, FCO and the EU commission are not to be trusted on matters Europe. So good.

I have never seen concerted criticism from so many places of a politician before.

Only if you disregard the views of the 60% of the population who support the veto.

The EU has had 8 major emergency summits so far this year. 8! And in amongst all this posturing and elaborate lunches, they have achieved the sum total of **** all!!! They have put precisely nothing/nowt/zip/nada in place that has done the slightest thing to defuse the financial apocalypse looming ever closer the horizon.

Cost estimates for those "emergency summits" and "elaborate lunches", anyone?

A nice summary of the LibDem position in todays [url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/there-is-no-way-back-for-clegg-and-toxic-libdems.16152476 ]Herald[/url]

cots estimates, it depends?

I heard Subway do outside catering which can be quite good value. did they have sandwiches delivered?

C'tain - I was thinking the same watching the news clips! What is the collective noun for this mass of useless bureaucrats. A tragedy?

For the record, I've always been very pro EU. But whats going on in Brussels to me is not only an utter and complete shambles, but the very sparse an ultimately futile solutions being proposed are profoundly anti-democratic.

I'm genuinely mystified by your attitude to this TJ. Seriously. You always strike me as a firm advocate of democracy (hence your independence position) - yet what the EU is proposing is handing the real power in Europe to faceless, unelected and unaccountable technocrats in Brussels, who will effectively dictate government policy to what will essentially become provinces

2 Countries in Europe have had governments imposed on them. In Italy not one single member of the cabinet has ever stood for election.

Do you seriously tihnk this is a healthy state of affairs? And one we should be supporting. I bloody don't!

Cost estimates for those "emergency summits" and "elaborate lunches", anyone?

How much influence do you think you have over the last few govts we have had Binners and how much of this influence has bee eroded? Did you want a condem alliance did you want to go to iraq ? Libya? Etc
As I have f all influence over the politicians within the UK you really cannot steal it from me .
I get your point but it is hardly like the uk does not do the same – See QUANGOS for example of unaccountable technocrats” we are only arguing about the location of these people and the size of the state that does it

We are hardly some superb example of how the govt always does what the people want or we would have the death penalty and not be in Europe as two easy examples to think off
I get your point but it is just as true here as there.

Since the summit and veto appears to have resolved the sum of bugger all i'm struggleing to see what all the fuss is about.

No one has got to grips with the fundemetal problem and instability of the Euro. It's still borked.

Treaty or no treaty the outcome is the same. Unless the Germans actually allow full integration with the ECB as lender of last resort the whole currency is doomed. DOOOOMED I tell you 😡

I'm genuinely mystified by your attitude to this TJ. Seriously. You always strike me as a firm advocate of democracy

.....unless you are a Libyan, in which case you need to do what your Gadaffi masters say.

Junkyard - are you seriously comparing the present and recent governments with whats presently going on in Italy and Greece? 😯

We don't like your government, so we're installing this one. And there's **** all you can do. Lots of love. Brussels

Junkyard - are you seriously comparing the present and recent governments with whats presently going on in Italy and Greece?

Maybe, just another one of those people arguing for a reduction in the role of governments and the size of the public sector. Reckon we will see a lot of that over the coming months.

At least many of these people are actually elected and answerable at an election. Contrast that with the people who "may" now be determining the power of state's to control taxation and spending!???!!

See QUANGOS for example of unaccountable technocrats”