[Closed] Calais. What to do?

Tory leaders have held Cobra meetings, basically putting Britain on a war footing.

He has no idea what Cobra is then. Just a fancy name for another 'look like we're doing something, but actually we're not' committee.

Only let 'em in if they're racists. Otherwise send 'em back to where they come from.

"COBRA" is an acronym for: Committee Office Building Room A".

Carry on...

Let them in and look after them is what rich peaceful countries like us and our European neighbours should do.

Mr Woppit - Member

"COBRA" is an acronym for: Committee Office Building Room A".

Carry on

Cabinet Office Briefing Room

Carry on...

Ah yes. Of course. My bad. 🙂

🙂

Was listening to a program on the World Service last night.

Reporter was on a ship patrolling the Med near Tunisia.

They picked up 2000 migrants [i]in one day[/i].

Sicily is accepting the same number of people who are camped out in Calais on a daily basis. If we let the 2000 in Calais now in the problem wouldn't go away but it would take time for numbers to build up again which would enable security at the Eurotunnel terminal to be upgraded without nightly mass break-ins happening.

The least they could do is bring over some wine and cheese.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

If someone has made it as far as Calais then they are resilient, determined, motivated and full of initiative. Most likely in emplyment in their country of origin which has enabled them to pay to get this far. Exactly the sort of people we need. Let them in and embrace the opportunity.

If you want to pacify the Jeremy Vine / Dail Mail / UKIP brigrade then balance the number with a one in, one out policy. I would start by rounding up anyone htat has appeared on Jeremy Kyle show and air drop them into Somalia...*

*not entirely serious but you get the idea.

O'Neils advice is wrong. By accepting the migrants, you send a message to the people back home in North Africa, which encourages them to take to the boats risking life and limb.
What to do? Stop invading and getting involved in other peoples countries. This is very much the aftermath of Iraq and also Cameron's interventions in Libya.

Some desperate people, from dirt-poor African countries or war-torn Syria

If they really are [i]desperate[/i] then why haven't they applied for Asylum in France?

If someone has made it as far as Calais then they are resilient, determined, motivated and full of initiative. Most likely in emplyment in their country of origin which has enabled them to pay to get this far. Exactly the sort of people we need. Let them in and embrace the opportunity.

You think we should leave asylum policy to be decided by 'who is crafty enough to get here' rather than 'who is in greatest need'?
Surely a more humane policy would be to only accept refugees from legitimate agencies, such as the UNHCR, who prioritise those in need from the refugee camps. Anyone who subverts the system, or tries to short cut it, should be sent back.
Indeed, one could argue that the countries and refugee camps are most in need of retaining the determined, motivated and full of initiative to build a future.

the obvious response is 'because the french smell funny'

but, the interviews i heard on R4 suggest it's at least partly because a lot of them can already speak excellent English, and they think Britain is more welcoming than France...

[i]If they really are desperate then why haven't they applied for Asylum in France?[/i]

Why should it make a difference?

Either France or Britain could easily accept them, just give them a legal way of entry.

Close the Tunnel, simple answer.

because a lot of them can already speak excellent English, and they think Britain is more welcoming than France...

Right, so they're not [i]that[/i] desperate after all then?

If they really are desperate then why haven't they applied for Asylum in France?

By far the vast majority do.

If they really are desperate then why haven't they applied for Asylum in France?

They're not stupid. Like the professional French who've also decided to live in England...

If they really are desperate then why haven't they applied for Asylum in France?

Partly our colonial legacy in Africa, which means Britain is held in high regard by many people there and the common language.

Plus they've been reassured by people smugglers that they will have a great life once they arrive here.

You could, well you could just get a huge arctic lorry open the back up, let them all jump in, close the doors and then turn the truck around to say the South of France and open the doors back up and let them out.

Just sayin'

you wanted a discussion, heres something to moot.

Either France or Britain could easily accept them, just give them a legal way of entry.

+1 This whole sorry mess is because Dave and his chums decided to pander to the right wing loonies (and that's giving him a lot of credit by not lumping them in with them) and declare that Britain is full and we won't be accepting our share of the refugees that arrive in Europe.

That we're making refugees live in a makeshift camp under a motorway should be national disgrace, instead it's almost a vote winning policy to keep them there and build a bigger fence!

Partly our colonial legacy in Africa,

It's a French legacy in North Africa, not British.

Partly our colonial legacy in Africa, which means Britain blah blah

I prefer to think that it's because (from what I've seen of the interviews on the telly) they are intelligent, resourceful and motivated people who can make up their own minds.

thisisnotaspoon - Member
the refugees that arrive in Europe.

those poor buggers over in Calais are not refugees.

That we're making refugees live in a makeshift camp under a motorway should be a national disgrace

WE?

[i]Under article 13 of the European Union directive of January 27, 2003, laying down minimum standards for the reception of asylum seekers (the reception directive), EU member states must provide “material reception conditions to ensure a standard of living adequate for the health of applicants and capable of ensuring their subsistence.”

Under French law, asylum seekers are entitled to accommodation in a state reception center (centre d’accueil pour les demandeurs d’asile, CADA), where they also receive social and administrative support while their asylum claim is processed.[/i]

So How exactly are WE to blame?

For the most part, they're not refugees, they're economic migrants.

Time for Sangatte II internment camp. Properly policed and secure where people can be processed and genuine refugees offered asylum and all the others returned to Country of origin.

People being squashed on a daily basis is not really an option is it?

[img] [/img]

If we shared out the wealth of the world in an equal way, everyone who reads this would be a big loser, so we don't want to do that. The rest is trying to justify why we deserve to be the benefactors of the lottery of where we were born. (I do it myself, so I'm not claiming any moral high ground here).

If we shared out the wealth of the world in an equal way, everyone who reads this would be a big loser, so we don't want to do that. The rest is trying to justify why we deserve to be the benefactors of the lottery of where we were born. (I do it myself, so I'm not claiming any moral high ground here).

Dave seems to think that if we give a tiny percentage of our GDP to dodgy regimes to then dissapear into offshore bank accounts, then they should all be bally grateful, and that should stop them all coming here.

"COBRA" is an acronym for: Committee Office Building Room A".

No, it was named after this guy.. now there is someone who gets the job done.
[img] [/img]

Dave seems to think that if we give a tiny percentage of our GDP to dodgy regimes to then dissapear into offshore bank accounts, then they should all be bally grateful, and that should stop them all coming here.

Instead of just letting in the very sort of self-motivated, resourceful and determined people that he says we need to be accepting as immigrants. Apparently.

I prefer to think that it's because they are intelligent, resourceful and motivated people who can make up their own minds.

You really think they chose to spend their days trying to jump on moving trains?

People smugglers told them that the journey would be relatively easy and they'd be welcome (or at least tolerated) when they arrived. Pretty sure Sangette is a massive shock to most of them.

.... and they've not seen Rochdale yet.

A few weeks a go Radio 4 were inerviewing the would-be migrants in Calais, all of them had been told, by the people smugglers no doubt, that once you arrive in the UK they immediately give you a house, and free money

If we shared out the wealth of the world in an equal way, everyone who reads this would be a big loser, so we don't want to do that. The rest is trying to justify why we deserve to be the benefactors of the lottery of where we were born. (I do it myself, so I'm not claiming any moral high ground here).

To be fair though it all revolves around the cost of living. It wouldn't actually cost that much to have a good standard of living in much of the developing world. I could actually have a better standard of living in the Philippines if both me and my wife were on 35000 pesos a month (around 500 quid) than we could here - you can get that wage with a half decent degree from UP Diliman or some of their other good universities. It's just that things like nice mountain bikes would be much more expensive.

What is needed is education and opportunities for people. If we shared the wealth equally (7500 dollars each), there would still be a lack of opportunities and education in the developing world. Rectifying this requires economic growth.

.... and they've not seen Rochdale yet.

Did you see the C4 programme about Romanians? There was a nice lady, a nurse, who had been told she was going to Grange-over-sands. Instead she was sent to Sheffield. Driving to the dingy house-share she'd been given she said "It's hilly. Like Rome". I shed a tear for her ...

I'm quite amused as I vaguely know Brendan. He's a full-on Libertarian, and spiked-online is a quirky mix of Libertarianism and properly "wide-eyed-loon", IMHO most of their stuff is published as a reaction piece.

I would start by rounding up anyone htat has appeared on Jeremy Kyle show and air drop them into Somalia...*

Theres an irony to the fact that the people who are most vocal about asylum seekers (foaming at the mouth, Mail Reading Little Englanders) have almost certainly never seen one. There are more in Rochdale than in the whole of the South East of England. Glasgow and Liverpool are other popular dumping grounds.

Let 'em all in I say.

Give them NI numbers, tax their income, no eligibility for benefits aside from basic health care until paid tax for five years.

South of England may be crowded but parts of Scotland are under-populated.

A few weeks a go Radio 4 were inerviewing the would-be migrants in Calais, all of them had been told, by the people smugglers no doubt, that once you arrive in the UK they immediately give you a house, and free money

What's the answer though?

Take a hard line, and you leave them to suffer (although clearly one of the issues is whether France is fulfilling its obligations under the EU rules)

Let them in, and you prove the people smugglers right, thereby perpetuating the problem.

Let them in, and you [s]prove the people smugglers right[/s] raise the number of hard working optimistic citizens, thereby [s]perpetuating the problem[/s] improving the economy and the general sense of collective well-being.

[i]Let them in, and you prove the people smugglers right, thereby perpetuating the problem.[/i]

Give them a legal entry and the need for smuggling goes away. Why is immigration a "problem"?

We should turn the service tunnel between the two Chunnel lines into a 20-mile 'Its a Knockout' style obstacle course. Complete it and you get a British Passport. We could compel Stuart Hall to do the commentary to earn extra money for fags and phone calls.

Means we get the fittest immigrants to work in the jobs that Brits are too lazy to do.

Give them a legal entry and the need for smuggling goes away.

'Fraid not. It encourages more people to take to the boats and fuels the smuggling trade.

Unless that is you want to do away with the concept of a sovereign border altogether.

Immigration needs to be controlled. It's a question of scale. Many members of the STW socialist republic seem to hate the political right with such intensity that they are happy to sacrifice the country to "rub the right's nose in diversity".

The government, The EU, charities and NGO's ruminate over the problem for years, and Martin comes up with the solution just like that

My disclaimer is that I know very little about this.
When the balkans war was on most of the migrants I came across were men of fighting age. I've never fought in a war but I couldn't understand why they weren't defending their homelands.
The people I see on the news tend to be fit,healthy, young men.
What happened to women and children first?
Does anyone know of the amount of people that fled to Eire during the second world war?

'Fraid not. It encourages more people to take to the boats and fuels the smuggling trade.

There have been something like 160,000 "boat-people" immigrants spilled into Italy and Greece altogether. There are 5,000 at Calais.

Math are hard, eh?

Give them a legal entry and the need for smuggling goes away. Why is immigration a "problem"?

Limited resources, limited NHS, limited education establishments, etc etc....while its a wonderful notion to think that everyone coming here is going to work, pay tax and become a net contributor a lot won't and will instead play the benefits game, work on the black market for cash and pay no tax and then to add insult to injury send the money 'home' to whichever country they've come from...brilliant strategy.

I liked Hels idea, take in the workers, give them NI numbers, tax from the get go and no benefits for a set number of years, seems a fair deal. Prove you're here to work and not milk the system.

Give them a legal entry and the need for smuggling goes away. Why is immigration a "problem"?

Finite resources, rumors of an economic recovery are largely exaggerated? On a proportionate scale it is not an issue, in fact it is a very positive benefit - people are worried about open door policies.

7500 dollars each per annum...? My family would do ok..

Go for it 🙂

Math are hard, eh?

Ah Woppit, the ultimate man of Unreason.

My point wasn't UK specific. It could be applied to the whole of the EU, that is, if you have an open-door policy towards immigration from North Africa, you will encourage the smuggling trade.

Although I would point out the UK is a particular culprit because it has had a very loose immigration policy, particularly under New Labour.

Finite resources, rumors of an economic recovery are largely exaggerated? On a proportionate scale it is not an issue, in fact it is a very positive benefit - people are worried about open door policies.

The problem is the less motivated and skilled UK citizens who will have to compete with even more enthusiastic and less fussy migrants for the limited number of jobs supported by the economy.

The people I see on the news tend to be fit,healthy, young men.
What happened to women and children first?

There was someone interviewed by the BBC the other day and his reason for being there (or rather reason to want to be in the UK) was so that he could get a job and send money to his family. I imagine the cost of getting across Europe is £x per person, so it's cheaper to send the breadwinner to win bread than it is everyone else leaving the breadwinner behind an no one earning money?

He was a Vet, not a fruit picker.

I noticed JV was asking yesterday what can we do to stop them wanting to come here?

And naturally I thought, well broadcasting JV at them should help discourage them.

[i]Let 'em all in I say.

Give them NI numbers, tax their income, no eligibility for benefits aside from basic health care until paid tax for five years.

South of England may be crowded but parts of Scotland are under-populated.[/i]

Put em straight on the train to the Highlands....perfect!

Although, a few weeks of that weather and they'll be hijacking lorries to get back to France!

[img] [/img]

We need a long line of these at the England end of that troublesome tunnel.

They are breaking the law en masse and that requires a robust response.

They're not desperate in the true sense. They are desperate to have what we have.

Protect our borders now before it becomes a full-on siege situation.

Haha, I can get on board with that thinking Derek!

Surely Mr Spoon that means that they are purely economic migrants or are they happy to leave their families in a war zone?

Ah Woppit, the ultimate man of Unreason.

My point wasn't UK specific.

Mine is.

The sad thing is that the tabloids and UKIppers have muddied the waters so much the Cabinet are working with both hands behind their back, honestly the fear mongering has reached epidemic levels.

Personally I think we should treat this as an European Problem and work with the EU on it - whilst it's clear to me that they've been sold the idea of Britain being some Garden of Eden, it's not helped by the rest of Europe herding them further west - Spain, Italy and France don't give them a moments bother as long as they keep moving - it's only when they reach Calais there's a problem.

There is no easy answer, we can't "send them back" as every hard of thinking right winger thinks, the costs are huge and for a lot of them we might as well shoot them in the back of the head and avoid the suffering before their inevitable deaths - I believe we (the EU) should collectively agree on a site for them and built suitable but low-cost housing and make them European citizens - no benefits or such, but the opportunity to work and make a life for themselves. Perhaps buy a couple of hundred square miles of Greece in exchange for cancelling some debt - the climate is better suited to Africans and people from the Middle East than France or the UK and it's sparsely populated in parts.

Can't understand why we aren't resorting to EU law. The main problem to Britain would seem to be the French police failing to properly control the actions of the striking ferry workers or people intent on damaging property to gain access to the Tunnel/Ferry Terminal/lorries. As such they are failing to ensure the free movement of citizens and trade.

There are also rules that Asylum claims should be dealt with at the first country of entry to the EU. while I think we should be helping out these countries we should also be making sure they are applying the rules as they would expect us to.

As we pay the membership and seem keen that we obey them, it only seems right that ask other countries to do the same (Using the EU to our advantage seems to be against the interest of the anti EU lobby and for some reason the pro EU lobby).

full-on siege situation.

There are 5000 of them, they are unarmed, tired and hungry living in tents and cardboard boxes.

We are a G8 country with a 150,000 military personnel, a nuclear arsenal and Apache Gunships...

When would you estimate the balance would tip in their favour allowing them to cut us off from the rest of the world and "starve us out"?

Perhaps buy a couple of hundred square miles of Greece in exchange for cancelling some debt

Greece has already received some 200,000 migrants/refugees/darkies - how much debt has that paid for?

[i]honestly the fear mongering has reached epidemic levels[/i]

+1

few hundred desperate people asking for help, and the response is the Army?

world's gone mad

DrJ - Member

Perhaps buy a couple of hundred square miles of Greece in exchange for cancelling some debt

Greece has already received some 200,000 migrants/refugees/darkies - how much debt has that paid for?

I've no idea, if Greece has taken in so many, and shouldered the cost alone - we really should be funding centrally - which is the crux of the problem for me - each EU members response seems to be to herd these poor souls out of their borders and into a neighbours rather than giving asylum.

Would anyone on here give one of these people a home and feed them til they found their feet?

I would be doing so through taxes that the government takes from me.

few hundred desperate people asking for help

they're not desperate.

they're not desperate.

Of course they're not. I often think of just uprooting and trecking over oceans and continents, over years, in the most life-threatening manner imaginable, because things are just great where I am, and I get a bit bored of a life of quiet contentment, if I'm honest.

And I don't even live anywhere near as nice as Syria

zippykona - Member

Would anyone on here give one of these people a home and feed them til they found their feet?

No, I couldn't afford to - but collectively we (UK or EU, whichever you prefer) could, easily, wouldn't make a dent in our budget, especially if you consider the costs of treating them like lepers now.

I often think of just uprooting and trecking over oceans and continents, over years, in the most life-threatening manner imaginable, because things are just great where I am, and I get a bit bored of a life of quiet contentment, if I'm honest.

Me, too!

I hear Somalia is nice this time of year. I was thinking of stealing a child's inflatable giraffe and sailing there - interested in tagging along?

Go to other countries and it's obvious the illegal immigrants flouting the law and being chased by the police. Big problem they have is with gangs who provide 'housing' in sub human conditions and then cream off any money they make before whats left gets sent home. The women and children never come over they stay at home.

We could always take a middle east approach, make them work in terrible conditions so we can have nice new stadiums and hotels.

I hear Somalia is nice this time of year

Parenthetically, there was a news item about Somaliland, which is apparently the northern bit of Somalia, that has declared independence and where they aren't driving round in pick-up trucks and blowing each other to bits. It did look bloody nice, and they spoke to one bloke who had moved back home having been living in Wembley for the last 10 years or so.

binners - i('m trying to) understand all that.

desperate people would surely request assylum/sanctuary/refuge at the earliest oppurtunity. The people at Calais have chosen not to ask italy/france/greece for help.

The help is there, they don't want it.

don't misunderstand me, i think we should be doing much more to help. But the people at Calais are not refugees*, nor are they desperate.

(*people seeking refuge)

[quote=footflaps said] I was thinking of stealing a child's inflatable giraffe and sailing there - interested in tagging along?

Watch out for any passing American dentists.

Go to other countries and it's obvious the illegal immigrants flouting the law and being chased by the police.

... are what?

Been to many, BTW?

ahwiles - Member

...i think we should be doing much more to help.

carrying on from this ^.

simply 'letting them in' doesn't help. At best it'll just move them from the grotty parts of Calais, to the grotty parts of London/Birmingham/Manchester. At worst, it's likely many of them will be taken advantage of.

it's no good sending over an empty Eurostar once a week, rounding up anyone and everyone that wants to go to Britain, before dumping them at St Pancras and expecting them to make the most of their new home.

we need to set up a (quite frankly, Massive) program of education, training*, housing, and integration.

(*someone mentioned a vet, looking to find work, that's awesome, but are his qualifications recognised? - it's likely he'll need to sit some exams, that kind of thing.)

we have a choice; do we help or not?

if we choose to help, then that's a huge commitment. Only helping a little is pretty much the same as not helping at all.

At best it'll just move them from the grotty parts of Calais, to the grotty parts of London/Birmingham/Manchester

I reckon if they've managed to get as far as Calais unaided they will manage OK to find their respective ethnic communities in the UK, where they will find some help getting work etc.