[Closed] Calais Migrant camp- a conversation

What culture are we defending exactly?

Are we actually pretending that the English have any degree of tradition ingrained in everyday life?

Stop the refugees, they don't like Morris dancing!!!

10000000000000 from me and many others

superstar1 - Member

To people on this site I am shameful and guilty.

Nope. I think you are a cheb end and a fool.

When your country, your life and freedom goes arse about tit, and when you've all finished crying into your latte, look me up because you WILL need people like me.

Wrong again. Your level of prejudice is never needed.

There should be some sort of prize for superstar's post:

"What a bunch of self opinionated"
pot/kettle

"Self- righteous"
pot/kettle,

"lefty"
caring about others used as an insult?

" tree hugging"
caring about the environment and the source of the oxygen he wastes used as an insult?

"self satisfied"
now't wrong in being happy with your opinions and life choices

" cycle riding," it is a bike forum you diminutive of Richard

"video camera wearing"
relevance? accuracy?

"naïve appeasers"
evidence of naivety or appeasement?

" what sort of responsible parent would do that when Turkey is the nearest Muslim safe country? **** me," "
well obviously a very desperate one !

"the chav white scum in the UK even take their all inclusive holidays there, so it isn't exactly a war zone."
it is in fact a big country it has a active war zone on its border not all Muslims think the same and as with any religion there are some quite big and hostile splits cf protestants /catholics.

"One minute these people are shouting " death to the infidels" and burning the Union flag and the next minute they are beating a path to the infidels" doorway,"
There is No evidence that the ones shouting death to the infidel are the ones fleeing the nutters in fact quite a lot of evidence to the contrary . Islam is a big religion lots of different people with lots of different ideas. Not all the refugees are in fact Muslim you cant actually tell religion from photos you know.

"They hate our culture, our religion, and our way of life,"
do they says who ? and who are these they about which you speak with such absolute naïve self satisfaction. There are Millions of well integrated people from the middle east and further throughout Europe.

" yet they can't live with each other, they have been in conflict with each other for a thousand years, long before Bush and Blair. Their religious wars and conflicts have driven them apart,"
ever heard of the crusades ? the Albigensian Crusade ? Bloody Mary, the Spanish inquisition, Northern Ireland etc etc.

"now they are fleeing to predominantly Christian lands"
not the UK then.

"where is the rush to get into countries that are more like theirs in religion and culture? Where is the rush to oil rich Saudi Arabia, or Qatar? Why is no pressure being brought to bear on Muslim states to help these people? Their silence is deafening."
you Don't read much or understand much do you there are masses of refugees in the region a issue called geography effects the direction of flight many Muslim states as you seemed to realise earlier would be ambivalent at best murderous at worse.

"We are going to leave a terrible legacy to our children and their children by encouraging the influx of people who will never integrate into our own culture, people who will never accept our way of life and traditions, however eccentric they may seem."
The absorption and adoption of influxes of people is the very story of "our" culture you diminutive of Richard.

"To people on this site I am shameful and guilty."
no not at all confused ill and informed yes.

"the politicians expect me to sacrifice my lifestyle and my country." no they are doing the square root of sod all decent people generally expect you to live up to the values of our country our fathers and grandfathers fought for not try to turn into the sort of racial superiority spouting callous mono culture they fought against.

"The Eurocrats sit in their citadel of corruption and tell me I should compromise my country that my grandfather fought and died for in the name of political correctness, in adherence to a cancerous and self-destructive "progressive" and "liberal" ideology, that spits in the face of democracy and freedom and coerces and bullies people into following its lies and delusions."
This is lazy ill thought through and repetitive, "political correctness" normally translates as Wheaton's law, "progressive" means moving forward making progress, "liberal" means free from prejudice or bigotry; open-minded or tolerant, especially free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, not exactly a bad thing.

"Am I ashamed? no I am not. "I bet you are not but you should be.

Just been catching up. A few comments.

On Arabian countries. From BBC. Social media activity around the photo has been dominated by Arab nations with a big theme being that they should be doing more, supporting their brothers. A few days ago a number of Gulf countries including Saudi Arabia made it clear the would not take any Syrian refugees. There is plenty of sectarianism behind this as well as counties not wishing to "encourage" revolutions by supporting those who fall victo of civil war having risen up against the government. The Jordanians where heavily critised by the UN last year as they refused to take any refugees from Syria who had previously declared themselves as Palastian Refugees.

On "shouting down" some of you should look very carefully at your posting history, we can all make controversial posts - I certainly do - but engaging in playing the man not the ball (used that phrase as its used here often) is prevalent rom many here. It doesn't bother me as I see it as a sign of weakness in others but it simply sucks the life out of the debate for others.

I see people in the press popping up to offer their homes for refugees, but it's more than that that's required - there are the costs of food, medical treatment and that most will wish/try and stay long term. It adds to up to £10's thousands per person. By providing £900m of aid to refugees the UK is doing it in a cost effective way in a low cost jurisdiction adjacent to people's homes and closely aligned to their own cultures.

Finally today, a rare event in that I post to congratulate Nicola Sturgeon for highlighting the significant difference that exists between Cameron's responce and that of the Germans. However in a way I doubt she intended.

Cameroon announces (aditmedly modest) numbers of Syrian refugees will be admitted in a way which protects them rather than exposes them to material dangers. We will take refugees from established refugee camps on the borders of Syria (Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan) who have been selected by the United Nations. We will transport them to the UK safely. Contrast this to Germany's statement to take all Syrians who arrive legally, suspending Schengen for a day before realising their error and reinstating it trapping many people "en-route" who have no exit/entry visas and are thus illegal. Also encouraging a crazy rush of desperate people wanting to get to Germany before the window closes. The Hungarian President is quite rightly incensed as Hungary has the legal responsibility and the costs of processing people who have no interest of being there, as per the first train to Munich 25% of those people where determined by the Germans to have no prospect of refugee / asylum status, in this case they are returned to Hungary. The wife and two sons who died had been sent money by the Canadian aunt to pay people traffickers. They left the safety of a refugee camp to make an illegal crossing to the EU. I used the word "naive" to describe the German actions but really their actions have been far worse than that.

but engaging in playing the man not the ball

Usually I would agree, argue against the argument not the person. However, when someone has articulated views that frankly are foul, they leave themselves wide open. I for one would happily make my comments again as I believe a person who truly holds those views becomes a personification of that offensive view.

A very interesting article by Fraser Nelson is the Telegraph today - [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11842760/Prepare-yourselves-The-Great-Migration-will-be-with-us-for-decades.html ]here[/url]

What I love about the web...is any old Tom can express their views
And the members that are shouting the most are the bleeding heart posse
So if me or anyone else posts something that they don't like ......oh what a noise you lot make!!
My opinions are mine.....you can't change it ...if it upsets you...well tough

Do I want MORE people from other countries invading English shores....NO
We have too many already
End of..........

For all I know ...its probaly a immigrant posting that we should take more immigrants:?

My opinions are mine....

Thank god for that. If they were mine I'd be worried.

The way I see it, this could be a perfect opportunity to counter the present Islamist narrative

The muslims fleeing Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan are running away from the representatives of a perverse, corrupted form of their religion, and their nihilistic barbarism. They have seen the true horrors that this ideology perpetrates in the name of their god.

Meanwhile in Europe we have a young, 2nd or 3rd generation, disenfranchised muslim youth that, suitably far removed from the harsh, brutal reality of ISIS looks to it for inspiration and a sense of belonging. It idealises it it a hopelessly romanticised way. Ignoring the bad bits, or somehow seeing it as just. It rejects western values as corrupt.

So maybe we have a chance to reassert that western values can be more altruistic and inclusive by accepting these refugees, and in turn these refugees can put paid, once and for all, to these ludicrously romanticised views of ISIS and their ilk as representative of Islam by exposing to western Muslim communities the true horror of what it is they really represent.

Just a thought

Just close it with that. Nice one binners.

"My opinions are mine.....you can't change it ...if it upsets you...well tough"

If you decide in advance that your opinions are yours and they can't be changed by argument or information then they are not opinions but dogmatic beliefs. If you want to live your life by unthinking unflinching dogmatic belief then that is indeed tough.

For all I know ...its probaly a immigrant posting that we should take more immigrants:?

hands up, yeah, my fore fathers were immigrants. Around 1066 if I remember right.

Cameroon announces (aditmedly modest) numbers of Syrian refugees will be admitted in a way which protects them rather than exposes them to material dangers. We will take refugees from established refugee camps on the borders of Syria (Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan) who have been selected by the United Nations. We will transport them to the UK safely. Contrast this to Germany's statement to take all Syrians who arrive legally, suspending Schengen for a day before realising their error and reinstating it trapping many people "en-route" who have no exit/entry visas and are thus illegal. Also encouraging a crazy rush of desperate people wanting to get to Germany before the window closes. The Hungarian President is quite rightly incensed as Hungary has the legal responsibility and the costs of processing people who have no interest of being there, as per the first train to Munich 25% of those people where determined by the Germans to have no prospect of refugee / asylum status, in this case they are returned to Hungary. The wife and two sons who died had been sent money by the Canadian aunt to pay people traffickers. They left the safety of a refugee camp to make an illegal crossing to the EU. I used the word "naive" to describe the German actions but really their actions have been far worse than that.

On balance I agree with this (and the linked article above by Fraser Nelson). It's all very well to shout/tweet 'something must be done' and offer to house a refugee, but it completely fails to deal with the underlying issues, and seems to offer some people an opportunity to denigrate others (as seen on the Corbyn and Scottish independence threads as well...)

The government approach to offering aslyum from applications made in the middle eastern camps is self evidently the right answer - if someone can persuade me otherwise then I'm open to the debate, but it would seem incontrovertible that Merkel has created more hardship and suffering through her actions. Likewise, some coordinated support to the border countries of the EU would seem like the logical thing to do, especially given the state of the Greek economy, but that's hardly the fault of the UK government alone.

So, I'm not surprised people like superstar and cheekyget above get panicked/provoked into responses like his/her posts. You don't have to be a raging racist to be against immigration policy being made up on the hoof in response to shocking photographs. You can also find the competitive empathy and righteousness on this thread and elsewhere counterproductive, yet still have a deep concern over the human tragedy unfolding and wish for a measured and effective response.

I think people in the secular West under-appreciate how important faith is to your average Muslim, and this in itself can perpetuate cultural misunderstandings. The rejection of Western values is not simply because of perceived Western infringements over the years.
Moderate muslim scholars would reject many recent developments in Western culture as being simply incompatible with Islam: criticising the Prophet, for example, or advocating gay marriage.

My opinions are mine....
Thank god for that. If they were mine I'd be worried.

Noise.......

It does depend on what you see the underlying issue as being .
Is it the log jam refugees in the region, Iraq Jordan Turkey Egypt where their support is underfunded by 50% in the best areas and 90% in the worst and of 3.5 million have already settled. Or is it the destabilised nations and war . Cameron's prior policy was to focus on talking about the destabilised war zone but the competitively empathetic want him to deal with their perception of the immediate issue. That being that a shed load of refugees who are so desperate that they are not settling in squalid underfunded under resourced camps close to those who would kill them waiting to be "processed" by a bureaucracy that represents those who repeatedly state they wish to restrict immigration. The political reality is that for many reasons a significant number of those people are on the move and clearly sufficiently motivated that a perilous sea or dangerous vehicle is better than the alternative and a significant number of the people of Europe want their politicians to take steps to help and make the lot of the refugees better.
So for the competitively empathetic the underlying issue is not the destabilised nation or war zone that will take years to resolve but the failure to put in place a workable humane solution to the refugee crisis.

The Leader of Liverpool council has written in the New Statesmen that the city will take 100 refugees http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/09/we-can-do-more-about-refugee-crisis-and-we-must

A couple of thoughts,

It's an offer on the basis the Home Secretary provides the "necessary resources" - I assume by that he means footing the bill, ie someone else pays

On a population weighted basis (Liverpool is a city of 2.2m) that's a UK equivalent commitment of less than 3,000 people.

For me the underlying issue is central to this whole issue is that the poor boy on the beach, and others like him, were killed by circumventing the 'official channels' to claim asylum and making their own way into Europe. The official channels may very well operate at a snails pace, but they always do. But ultimately we need to prevent people making the same devastating decisions in making that same journey and putting their lives in the hands of the people traffickers who couldn't give a toss about their wellbeing and actively take advantage of the situation and court people to make that journey that is just as dangerous as staying in their home towns. We don't want to be in the unfortunate position of causing as many deaths as we're trying to save.

On the other side, the root cause to this is the spread of ISIL (or whatever they're called this week) and the civil wars in the ME. This clearly needs to be addressed, because if it isn't then even the 800k refugees that Germany has announced, and the few thousands of refugees committed by other nations so far will pale into insignificance, because we're ultimately talking about tens of millions of refugees over the next few years. The whole of Europe just cannot cope with that number, no matter how big and generous our hearts may be. Ultimately taking human emotion out of this it is basically a numbers game and there are limits to the numbers we can support. This is where a global response is needed to finally solve the problems in the ME. Syrians don't want to leave Syria. Let's help make is such that they don't have to leave.

gofasterstripes - Member
Quite an interesting exchange, that.

Something I was thinking earlier, if the Hungarian PM is saying he's concerned to let so many Muslims in, maybe he's not only wrong but dead wrong.

If, being positive for a moment, this melting pot succeeds, could it perhaps be a crucial step towards tolerance and the abandonment of the relative importance of such petty differences?

I'm not very keen on religion, mostly because it seems to divide so much, but if for whatever reason that was to change that might be a great thing.

You are not keen or you do not understand them? Are you suggesting their drop their belief to adopt your way of thinking/belief whatever ...?

Could it form ties that transgress the petty boundaries?

By force? 😮

the root cause to this is the spread of ISIL (or whatever they're called this week) and the civil wars in the ME.

It's a bit more complicated than that. ISIS have nothing to do with the 10% from ****stan or the 6% from Albania, or the 5% from Nigeria and so on. In 2014 10% of asylum seekers in the UK were from Europe.

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migration-uk-asylum

Arguably decreasing poverty in Africa means more people can afford to travel to Europe. People smugglers don't come cheap.

One of the more intriguing nuggets about the Africa emigration story is that far from fleeing poverty, migrants out of the continent are likely to be relatively well off, and are rarely from the most destitute families.

Data from the UN’s World Migration Report shows that African emigration rates to the OECD countries are strongly related to GDP per capita, and to household wealth, as these migrants are more likely to have the resources to pay for transport to and resettlement expenses in the OECD countries, and are more likely to have the education and other skills required to find jobs there.

https://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/africa-is-getting-richer-so-expect-more-migrants/

The muslims fleeing Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan are running away from the representatives of a perverse, corrupted form of their religion, and their nihilistic barbarism. They have seen the true horrors that this ideology perpetrates in the name of their god.

Meanwhile in Europe we have a young, 2nd or 3rd generation, disenfranchised muslim youth that, suitably far removed from the harsh, brutal reality of ISIS looks to it for inspiration and a sense of belonging. It idealises it it a hopelessly romanticised way. Ignoring the bad bits, or somehow seeing it as just. It rejects western values as corrupt.

So maybe we have a chance to reassert that western values can be more altruistic and inclusive by accepting these refugees, and in turn these refugees can put paid, once and for all, to these ludicrously romanticised views of ISIS and their ilk as representative of Islam by exposing to western Muslim communities the true horror of what it is they really represent.

I don't see how us being nice, will change mainstream Islamic narrative in regards to the west. We have helped out for purely altruistic reasons, for example in Kosovo...which has since become more radicalized and less cosmopolitan than it was under Tito.

The only thing that appears to keep Islam reasonably cosmopolitan is a good old fashioned baathist or socialist dictator

superstar1 - Member

....yet they can't live with each other, they have been in conflict with each other for a thousand years, long before Bush and Blair.

Not only is that comment false but the reverse is true.

For most of the time over the last thousand year there has been a violent conflict going on somewhere in Europe, some extremely nasty and some lasting as long as a hundred years.

In contrast for most of the time over the last thousand year the Middle East has been at peace with almost no conflicts. All that changed when the Europeans turned up.

If you want to lecture people on the Middle East superstar1 then I suggest you research the subject.

Obviously you'll discover things which completely counter your racist and anti-Islamic views, such as that cities like Baghdad, Damascus, and Cairo, were great centres of learning often far ahead of Europe, they were also beacons of tolerance, peaceful coexistence, and international trade, so you might not want to.

BTW superstar1 do you know where that number at the end of your username comes from ?

Here's a clue :

[i]Arabic numerals or Hindu-Arabic numerals or Indo-Arabic numerals are the ten digits: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. They are the most common symbolic representation of numbers in the world today. [/i]

Just been watching the news, all those poor people fleeing persecution in Hungary, where they were being forced to [i]register for asylum[/i], oh, the horror. 😥

seems like quite a few are happy to stay in Hungary

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Strange - 28 EU nations, and the graphs only show a few of them, and another non EU one 😕

...all those poor people...

...oh, the horror...

Just every so often, you remind us how you and your likes actually think. Don't stop, eh?

I was thinking 'I wonder what ninfan would be posting if this was the 1930s and Jews were fleeing Germany, including to the UK?'

Ninfan is so predictable I think we all know the answer.

Also how strange that in those 9 countries the UK is the 2nd least popular destination for migrants it's almost as if we have next to no risk of being swamped.

In contrast for most of the time over the last thousand year the Middle East has been at peace with almost no conflicts. All that changed when the Europeans turned up.

Apart from the 11th century Turks invasion, the 13th century Mongol invasion, and the expansion of the Ottoman Empire in the 15th and 16th century.

Then a bit further west there was the Barbary pirates who captured and enslaved over a million Europeans between the 16th and 19th century resulting the first and second Barbary wars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War.

Here's the 2008-2012 EU asylum applications. The Uk doesn't look too bad.

[img] [/img]

I was thinking 'I wonder what ninfan would be posting if this was the 1930s and Jews were fleeing Germany, including to the UK?'

And pray tell exactly what are similarities between Hungary in 2015 and Germany in the 1930's?

Do you get that?

They're not fleeing Syria, they are fleeing Hungary - an EU nation, where, as point of entry into the EU, they have to register for Asylum.

Look at it this way - if Germany, UK, and the rest of the EU said they were [b]only[/b] going to accept refugees who had registered in Hungary and been processed through official channels - do you think there would be a couple of thousand walking down the motorway towards Austria now?

The leader of Hungary is staunchly anti immigration, as are a great deal of the population.

I bet it would be a splendid place to settle as a refugee.

But hell, as long as it isnt isis they should be ****ing thankful.

And pray tell exactly what are similarities between Hungary in 2015 and Germany in the 1930's?

There aren't any, it's not Germany, it's not the 1930s, and they're not Jews fleeing persecution.

I'll repeat what I said.......I was thinking 'I wonder what ninfan would be posting if this was the 1930s and Jews were fleeing Germany, including to the UK?'

Ninfan is so predictable I think we all know the answer.

Do you get that?

Irc you do realise 2012 was 3 years ago don't you ?

And it doesn't show any relationship to the size of the country.

1.8 million Syrian refugees in Turkey is a lot, but 1 million Syrian refugees in Lebanon, which a population of 4 million compared to Turkey's population of 75 million, puts a different perspective on the matter.

UNHCR says refugees should be relocated from Hungarian refugee camps but hey don't worry Ninfan knows better 😥

[url= http://www.ibtimes.com/roszke-refugee-camp-update-makeshift-shelter-housing-thousands-hungary-fleeing-2083497?rel=rel2 ]Conditions in Hungarian Refugee Camps [/url]

ernie_lynch - Member

superstar1 - Member
....yet they can't live with each other, they have been in conflict with each other for a thousand years, long before Bush and Blair.

Not only is that comment false but the reverse is true.

Ernie ... Really? 😆

For most of the time over the last thousand year there has been a violent conflict going on somewhere in Europe, some extremely nasty and some lasting as long as a hundred years.

😆 Really! Getting interesting now ...

In contrast for most of the time over the last thousand year the Middle East has been at peace with almost no conflicts. All that changed when the Europeans turned up.

😯 Really? Peace on earth and all that?

If you want to lecture people on the Middle East superstar1 then I suggest you research the subject.

So what have you research that makes you so sure there were peace on earth and all that?

Obviously you'll discover things which completely counter your racist and anti-Islamic views, such as that cities like Baghdad, Damascus, and Cairo, were great centres of learning often far ahead of Europe, they were also beacons of tolerance, peaceful coexistence, and international trade, so you might not want to.

Yes, they have to be tolerance or else head would be separated from body.

You want to argue against the Mongols? (am referring to the timeline long long ago ... )

Your ancestors would probably not survive and you would not be born if it was not for Dracula (my hero Vlad the Impaler) fighting off the invaders knocking at the gate of Europe ... even if you survive the Mongols you would probably have to bow to the mighty Mongols and kiss their feet!

Ya, research that Ernie ...

How many refugees are Saudi's, Emirates etc taking in?

What about creating some kind of "Israel" type land where migrants could go.
With an ends justify the means type ethos.Zero tolerance for anyone opposing it.

Tight to a coastline or mountain range which could be easy defended.....
The initial government could be UN ......
Some EU Manufacturing tasks could be given to it to get it up and running.

How many refugees are Saudi's, Emirates etc taking in?

None. Your point being?

DrJ the point being they are very rich Middle Eastern countries who are physically, racially and socially much closer to Syria/Iraq etc than Germany or the rest of the EU.

The main three nationalities en route from Hungary are Syrians, Afghani's and Somalian (from news reports) Germany has said it will take all Syrians - so what happens to the other nationalities ? As I posted before the first train load of 2000 people to arrive in Munich 25% where immediately put into camps as having no chance of asylum/refugee status as they where from countries like Kosovo and Moldovia. There is a huge amount of opportunism going on.

I don't think it will be long before the news is reporting on forged passports and other documents, as it stands today if you can get a Syrian passport you have a major advantage over other nationalities,

Baghdad, Damascus, and Cairo, were great centres of learning often far ahead of Europe,

The Quran explicitly states that it takes precedence over any man made law. The Bible (Old Testament) says the opposite, always respect the laws of the country in which you find yourself.

We should not underestimate the cultural challenges.

EDIT: I post the above as these refugees do not in my opinion wish to stay temporarily. It's my view they are under sting what they hope will be a permanent migration.

trek77 - Member
What about creating some kind of "Israel" type land where migrants could go.

And watch them annex all the lands around them 😉

Okay, not saying they would, but if they were Israeli then they would as history has shown since we "gave" them land that wasn't theirs or ours to call Israel. It's of course a bit more complex as they believe their particular work of fiction grants all the land in the area to be theirs.

More seriously though you have to be careful who you stick where as suddenly you can spark off conflict if you sit a group of one ethnicity next to another who might hate them for no good reason. Worse if you displace another population in the process.

[img] [/img]

Just read on the Guradian website about a Syrian woman and her 4 children who is en route from Hungary to Germany. She has travelled from Saudi Arabia where she has been living for 18 years. Eighteen. Is it not safe there ? The article makes it clear she is traveling for free health care in Germany, I imagine it's not free in Saudi Arabia for non-Saudis.

I think it is abundantly clear that for a lot of people Saudi Arabia is not a safe country . Migrarant workers are treated appallingly read any of the reports about the building of infrastructure . Two of my former commercial clients worked their and saw non Saudis being beaten out of hand with impunity by overseers .
Also even if Saudi Arabia were a land of milk and honey for all one womens story may not tell story of 3 million other refugees.

There is a huge amount of opportunism going on.

Well why wouldn't there be?

Maybe we shouldn't ram McDonalds, Premier League football, cigarettes, smart phones, coca-cola etc down their necks and constantly try and promote to them a lifestyle they can't afford and make them feel shite as a result.

What do you expect them to do? We are quite happy to exploit them at any opportunity to turn a profit when it suits us. But god forbid those who want a taste of the real thing eh?

I am afraid we can no longer have it both ways. As has been pointed out, large amounts of people now have access to just about enough money to make a new life possible for them and their families. We have been telling and promoting to them for years what kind of shite they need for that to happen, yet we chastise them for coming after it.

DrJ the point being they are very rich Middle Eastern countries who are physically, racially and socially much closer to Syria/Iraq etc than Germany or the rest of the EU.

I don't think anyone disputes that the Saudis are a bunch of ****tards. My question is, so what? Are we supposed to say "well, the Saudis should help you, and if they don't we don't care if you get blown to bits by barrel bombs, or beheaded by bearded lunatics(*)?"

(*)Especially when the Saudis are probably funding and arming aforementioned bearded lunatics

I think the debate here is largely futile. Both sides would agree the UK should take 'some' of the world's desperately needy. The only question that needs debate is how many of the vast number do we take?

outofbreath - Member
I think the debate here is largely futile. Both sides would agree the UK should take 'some' of the world's desperately needy. The only question that needs debate is how many of the infinate number do we take?

At some point all the Islamic nations (some may not even be Islamic nation) will migrate to the west because of the fanatics pushing for a world wide "paradise" and "emptying" the region as they go along. If they (fanatics) are not stopped then it will happen much quicker in next few generations ...

Therefore, you should expect many from North Africa, Middle East and Central Asia ... take half or 3/4 from each region then you should have a rough idea. It's only a matter of when if the fanatics cannot be stopped.

Like I said previously the West will be dominated without having to go to war. Population wise you cannot compete with their birth rate.

Not good and for the skeptics remember I told you so here on STW ... I see them coming ...

Unless of course they don't feel the need to have as many children when it's not economically or otherwise advantageous/necessary as it is at home; or, if the higher levels of access to education and other liberation of women reduces the birthrate here as it has everywhere else, ever.

gofasterstripes - Member

Unless of course they don't feel the need to have as many children when it's not economically or otherwise advantageous/necessary as it is at home; or, if the higher levels of access to education and other liberation of women reduces the birthrate here as it has everywhere else, ever.

Or the survival instinct and the probability come into play with more children the better the chances of survival as everyone can pull in resources (family). Besides the state can pay for the initial childhood year support ...

Also bear in mind other cultures retain a lot of the family unity and many would live in one house.

p/s: Central Asia is slowly kicking off now ... Most of them have Dear Leaders so let's see how they handle their situation there. Many former CCCP has powerful weapons if they fall you will see the beginning of 3rd WW.

or, if the higher levels of access to education and other liberation of women reduces the birthrate here as it has everywhere else, ever.

Though in some groups the birthrate, while declining somewhat, remains high. There is no reason to believe that the birthrate of Middle East immigrants will not remain higher than the average UK rate.

The major mainly Muslim groups in the UK (Bangladeshis and ****stanis), offer contrasting examples. In both, fertility,although declining, has remained substantially above the UK national average.

We've just flown in from South Africa on our way to Spain - in SA we don't have a TV (through choice, I mean there is TV) so we're not up to speed on the whole immigrant situation. Just know what we know from the odd internet headlines.

Watching TV here now is a real eye opener.

Saw a guy on TV this morning comparing the current situation to evacuating children from Nazi Germany. Saw another guy, an American politician I think, saying you "can't put a dollar value on this aid" (I'm sure you can, and will have to actually). Very emotive and very conflicting views from people.

Heard a guy on the radio yesterday saying the father of the drowned children is wholly responsible for the death of his children, because he, for the third time (I think it was) had organized the very dangerous trip that lead to their death. The first trip led to deportation back home, the second trip never materialized after he paid the money.

Another person was talking about some of the immigrants marching on the freeway being barefoot while others were smoking. smoking & drinking whilst claiming poverty always sets a few people off.

On the same news bulletin last night there was a story about how much money the UK government should be pledging to help the immigrants and a story about 16 (??) cancer treatment drugs taken of the medicine list due to expense cuts.

It certainly is a messy and conflicting situation.

I'd be interested to know what's really in the hearts of the British public, not just the ones who get a slot on TV. Few people are so uncompassionate that they wouldn't feel for the immigrants plight, but at the same time the country has been experiencing budget cuts, NHS cuts etc etc for years.

I'll be watching with interest.

The major mainly Muslim groups in the UK (Bangladeshis and ****stanis), offer contrasting examples. In both, fertility,although declining, has remained substantially above the UK national average.

OK, but:

[img] [/img]

What about everyone else?

Population wise you cannot compete with their birth rate.

Then there's the declining birthrate of those already here. Who's going to work when we all retire?

I think you should also remember the last line of that report, irc :

"[i]The outcome of the ‘natural experiment’ noted in the introduction is, therefore, still unclear. Convergence of fertility is not a foregone conclusion, any more than it is among European countries themselves.[/i]"

It's not exactly a straight-up prediction, is it?

Lastly - this doesn't change the fact that we're morally obligated to help if we can. It doesn't mean it's the easy way - but it's still the way myself and others feel - we should - [b]because we can[/b].

EDIT: WRT the birth rate among those already here - there is a lack of integration and acceptance that has led [as binners noted] to a " 2nd or 3rd generation, disenfranchised muslim youth" - what happens if we actually just get the **** along?! I mean, with those coming now, let's not repeat the mistakes of the past.

Lastly - this doesn't change the fact that we're morally obligated to help if we can. It doesn't mean it's the easy way - but it's still the way myself and others feel - we should - because we can.

Nobody says we shouldn't help. But for a given budget more people can be helped nearer the country of origin. The UK is the second biggest donor in 2015 to the Syrian Emergency.

https://fts.unocha.org/pageloader.aspx?page=search-reporting_display&CQ=cq020315114425TxF7oSVtRX&orderby=USD_commitdisbu&showDetails=

Any asylum seekers given residence in the UK should come directly from the camps in the region selected by agreed criteria. Not selected by who can get to Calais first which selects predominately fit young men with money. The numbers we should take are a matter for debate.

MODS - would it be possible to re-name this thread 'NIMBY APOCALYPSE' seeing as how it's veered off course..

thanks
yunki

gofasterstripes - Member
OK, but:
What about everyone else?

Your chart shows people seeking asylum ... S/he was referring to birth rate so perhaps you should have a chart related to birth rate.

Population wise you cannot compete with their birth rate.

Well, there's a lot of Europeans already here in Europe [500,000,000 via a quick google], so you're saying that we'll be outnumbered, when?

Ts! Ts! Ts! You are lazy aren't you when it comes to google for information ... Eventually there will be a time where the population will be very different but you would be dead by then so I guess that does not bother you. Like I said previously it will be generations to come and that's the fact. When? You do the maths from here ...

[url= http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/15.3 ]Migration Watch UK - info here[/url]

Then there's the declining birthrate of those already here. Who's going to work when we all retire?

You mean you want others to feed you when you retire? Star saving now rather than waiting for handouts ... Also the welfare state might not even be sustainable in future.

I think you should also remember the last line of that report, irc :

"The outcome of the ‘natural experiment’ noted in the introduction is, therefore, still unclear. Convergence of fertility is not a foregone conclusion, any more than it is among European countries themselves."

It's not exactly a straight-up prediction, is it?

OK, just had a quick read so not sure whether this is mentioned ... one point is that irrespective of the drop of the birth rate after the latter generations, if the first migrants had already produced say several children or above average but then their latter generations, although might meet the average, they are already slowly overtaking ... not sure if I explain this well ... so I shall try. (Ya, ya, I am not children eater nor I am going to crush the skulls of anyone ... just illustrating a point here about human reproduction or replication ...)

1. British (assuming 1st generation) = 2 children (2nd generation) = each give birth to 2 = 4.

2. Immigrant(assuming 1st generation) = 4 children (2nd generation) = each give birth to 2= 8.

You do the maths ...

Lastly - this doesn't change the fact that we're morally obligated to help if we can. It doesn't mean it's the easy way - but it's still the way myself and others feel - we should - because we can.

That depends on whether you force your ideology on others ... if you do force others to be morally obliged are you doing the right thing? Especially, if those people did not cause the suffering ... yes, they might be selfish but can they be be accountable? Why?

EDIT: WRT the birth rate among those already here - there is a lack of integration and acceptance that has led [as binners noted] to a " 2nd or 3rd generation, disenfranchised muslim youth" - what happens if we actually just get the **** along?! I mean, with those coming now, let's not repeat the mistakes of the

How can you blame the local population for their own disenfranchisement ... This argument is flaw on so many counts that I do not know where to begin ... oh well ... as the saying goes "if you want to bite the hands that feed you" ... something like that.

😯

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260019/hijrah-europe-robert-spencer

Now whilst I want to see actual asylum seekers being given support, what are we doing to filter out fighters? And why should we allow people in who are here because their home countries increasing prosperity allowed them to by the fares to get here in the first place. As others and studies have pointed out, asylum seeking and migration out of a country oddly enough tends to increase when it starts to develop more wealth. When it's actually so poor that the people can't feed or shelter themselves they have to stay put.

We are reaping the rewards of failing to convince the developing world that they will get a decent share of the worlds wealth as well.

I can honestly see Europe stuffing this up, not filtering the migrants properly, ghettoizing them etc. Combined with economic stagnation (especially in the south) and a concerted campaign by ISIS, we could end up with certain border states such as Greece and Spain resembling the internal strife of Colombia in the 1980's.

Your chart shows people seeking asylum

Like I said previously it will be generations to come and that's the fact. When? You do the maths from here ...

Migration Watch UK - info here

Total 12,375,000 in 75 years - UK Population from the same site 65,000,000 in 2015 - so +19% according to that paper - as I said [Though I was talking about
Europe as a whole] - "when are we going to be outnumbered?" - answer : never.
Do you really think the UK will cease to function when 1 in 5 people is a migrant? I don't. [again, I was talking about Europe as a whole, so I don't really see your point]

You mean you want others to feed you when you retire?

1. British (assuming 1st generation) = 2 children (2nd generation) = each give birth to 2 = 4.

2. Immigrant(assuming 1st generation) = 4 children (2nd generation) = each give birth to 2= 8.

Yes, except your numbers are wrong, so it won't work out like that. Go read the paper you just sent me.

That depends on whether you force your ideology on others ... if you do force others to be morally obliged are you doing the right thing? Especially, if those people did not cause the suffering ... yes, they might be selfish but they certainly cannot be accountable.

Uh huh. But the people are speaking - in droves. They want to help. You would see that if you look around the internets. There are [as I said already] a lot of [s]older* [/s]people who don't want to help, but they appear, to me anyway, to be a minority. I am not attempting to pretend to be an expert/specialist acedemic, I am merely talking about my own experience and contributing to a discussion.

How can you blame the local population for their own disenfranchisement

*I don't really feel happy writing that.... but it seems to me to be more the case than not, so I'll just leave it with this caveat: It's clumsy. Sorry.

@Tom_W1987 The article you link to is imo hate filled drivel however that's only my opinion. What is fact is that the author Robert Spencer is banned from travelling to the UK" for making statements that may foster hatred that might lead to inter-community violence".[4]source Wikipedia

Second, how do reduce resentment and fracturing of society along ethnic lines when we have this issue to deal with?

[img] [/img]

@Tom_W1987 The article you link to is imo hate filled drivel however that's only my opinion. What is fact is that the author Robert Spencer is banned from travelling to the UK" for making statements that may foster hatred that might lead to inter-community violence".[4]source Wikipedia

Good point, was actually going to delete it but got to the 15 min mark after getting food. I want to see asylum seekers gaining help, I just really see Europe stuffing this up in a big big way. Bit embarrassed I managed to post that to be fair.

We won't spend the necessary resources making sure we don't end up resenting the migrants and they don't end up resenting us.

It's going to be one gigantic cock up.

INSIDE EVERY LIBERAL IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT

Reminds me of that [url= http://chicksontheright.com/blog/item/30773-have-you-seen-the-super-awesome-gun-that-has-cair-freaking-out ]Chicks on the Right[/url] / rightwingnews.com shit.

Barf.

We won't spend the necessary resources making sure we don't end up resenting the migrants and they don't end up resenting us.

Well, why the frack not?!

Because we won't even do that for our own disadvantaged types, let alone asylum seekers.

We will ride a wave of good will for a few years until the reality sets in and then we will renege on the responsibility for these people. Like we always do.

Boosting IQ and educational attainment up to our levels, will take next to 50 years won't it of concerted effort? By then, they will be another maligned section of society with an axe to grind living in a Europe full of white people who view them as inferior.

Because we won't even do that for our own disadvantaged types

You are assuming that nothing will change. Seems to me that the younger generation is feeling less like that [though the poisonous ideology of some must be countered, the internet is breaking down many barriers].

It is possible, especially if we don't, oh I don't know, spend 20, 30, 40bn on renewing Trident.

who view them as inferior

Well get the **** on with sorting that out then!

You are assuming that nothing will change. Seems to me that the younger generation is feeling less like that [though the poisonous ideology of some must be countered, the internet is breaking down many barriers].

It is possible, especially if we don't, oh I don't know, spend 20, 30, 40bn on renewing Trident.

People are tossers, look what the hippy generation turned into. Tories.

@Tom_W1987 I do agree with one of your conclusions

We are reaping the rewards of failing to convince the developing world that they will get a decent share of the worlds wealth as well.

Not everybody was hip. Many were square.

Again, my apologies for that link. I am really quite embarrassed about it....posted on a sugar/energy bonk/crash.

Again, my apologies for that link. I am really quite embarrassed about it....posted on a sugar/energy bonk/crash.

https://vine.co/v/OuTMDT9nTjP

@Tom _W1987 It's teh interweb whilst I don't agree with all your points they didn't seem to me to be racist in any way which made the link a bit puzzling.

People are tossers, look what the hippy generation turned into. Tories.

Maybe have a little faith...

[IMG] [/IMG]

I'll have more faith in 5 years guys.....

😐

It's funny, my wifes cousin ones to come here as a nurse. But when you factor in the cost of living, the standard of living is not much better and in some respects worse than her home country. However, if you aren't educated in her home country then you are living on 2 dollars a day. Those that can afford to make the journey have dreams about the west that do not live up to reality, I think there is going to end up with so much disillusionment on both sides and I do not believe we are prepared to deal with that.

Granted if you are running from bombs and bullets it will be much better.

gofasterstripes - Member

Your chart shows people seeking asylum

And your point was that the people coming are going to reproduce faster - the chart shows that the people coming are not only from the countries mentioned within the report as having a higher birthrate [Bangladesh and ****stan]

That's asylum seeking chart and I was referring to birth rate ... yes, there are from many countries.

Like I said previously it will be generations to come and that's the fact. When? You do the maths from here ...

Migration Watch UK - info here
Total 12,375,000 in 75 years - UK Population from the same site 65,000,000 in 2015 - so +19% according to that paper - as I said [Though I was talking about Europe as a whole] - "when are we going to be outnumbered?" - answer : never.

+19% ... 😯 That will be more than enough to affect any policy ...

Not all Europe has large population like UK, France and Germany so those smaller EU nations will definitely feel the force if there is policy that is force on them indirectly via EU (due to their internal influences)

Do you really think the UK will cease to function when 1 in 5 people is a migrant? I don't. [again, I was talking about Europe as a whole, so I don't really see your point]

It will certainly affect/change certain policy(s) good or bad. Of course the state will still function but why should there be change if democracy means the majority rule?

You mean you want others to feed you when you retire?

- No I mean others to make up the economy. Who will work?! Money in a country full of retired people is no use. Are you trying to be obtuse?

Are we in full employment yet? Your question makes no sense by making the assumption that there will not be enough people to work hence the economy will not perform ... Until you have full employment there will always be the unemployed and people looking for jobs.

On the contrary I am not being insensitive but rather surprised by the utopia view that there would not be enough people to contribute to your retirement ...

By the way when you retire you are obsolete and your views are old so why do you bother since you make the assumption the older views are just minority views ... when you retire you are exactly that. Obsolete.

1. British (assuming 1st generation) = 2 children (2nd generation) = each give birth to 2 = 4.
2. Immigrant(assuming 1st generation) = 4 children (2nd generation) = each give birth to 2= 8.

Yes, except your numbers are wrong, so it won't work out like that. Go read the paper you just sent me.

That's precisely my point because the paper does not mention anything like my illustration ... 🙄 Wrong? Time will tell ...

That depends on whether you force your ideology on others ... if you do force others to be morally obliged are you doing the right thing? Especially, if those people did not cause the suffering ... yes, they might be selfish but they certainly cannot be accountable.

Uh huh. [b]But the people are speaking - in droves.[/b] They want to help. You would see that if you look around the internets. There are [as I said already] a lot of older* people who don't want to help, but they appear, to me anyway, to be a minority. I am not attempting to pretend to be an expert/specialist acedemic, I am merely talking about my own experience and contributing to a discussion.

Again, there are simply too many flaws in this argument which I do not know where to start.

I mean you are counting interweb? Crikey ... you do know on interweb you only look at things you like don't you? Talking about biases ... 🙄

How can you blame the local population for their own disenfranchisement

I am suggesting that we have, historically, had a problem with lack on integration. But that that is not bound to repeat itself, and that as part of the solution of giving people asylum and accepting immigration of large numbers we MUST not alienate or scapegoat them. That [nationalism] is the root cause of many problems. See Israel for further details.

What do you mean by integration? As long as nobody is harming each other and has a peace of mind that is that ... what's this so called integration about? Are you going to force people to integrate? Why?

For example, if people don't eat pork are you going to force them to eat pork? Likewise, if the local population does not want Halal/Kosher food whatever do you force them?

Also why should one convert to another religion if s/he does not want to? I know govt keep a silence on this issue as they do not want to cause an uproar for not respecting people belief etc ...

What is your problem with others who have different views? i.e. they don't want to integrate (both sides) ...

FFS! Here go Israel again ... Why on earth do you think Israel is the evil one on this earth? (I am preempting your predictable views on Israel by the way ... )

You lost me there ... really ... 🙄

*I don't really feel happy writing that.... but it seems to me to be more the case than not, so I'll just leave it with this caveat: It's clumsy. Sorry.

No need to apologise coz you are merely expressing your views as yourself in the way you know yourself.

p/s: Now that Syria is "empty" does that mean there will be free land to many in the surrounding region? 😀 I mean can the Palestinians move to get some land or can Israel take some land for themselves ... ya, you like that don't you ... 😈

On the contrary I am not being insensitive but rather surprised by the utopia view that there would not be enough people to contribute to your retirement ...
By the way when you retire you are obsolete and your views are old so why do you bother since you make the assumption the older views are just minority views ... when you retire you are exactly that. Obsolete.

I'm going to think a little longer how to respond to the rest of that, but for the record my view of Israel is that having had a lot of apalling treatment, repressed and victimised and then been 'created' a land, a large number of Isrealis are nationistic, hardline and intolerant. Especially those who are in charge within the present government.

I love everyone equally, and I am not remotely intolerant of any peoples, but this is my observation: it's what happens when you treat people like shit, they begin to bite back.

Damn shame.

They are not evil, of course not, they're just deeply wary and have many many bad experiences.

Therefore we must evolve as a species... Kindness is the solution.

Damn - I hope that's clear.

gordimhor - Member

On the contrary I am not being insensitive but rather surprised by the utopia view that there would not be enough people to contribute to your retirement ...

2 points Firstly how does having a working age population which is too small to pay for your pensions constitute a utopian view.

By the way when you retire you are obsolete and your views are old so why do you bother since you make the assumption the older views are just minority views ... when you retire you are exactly that. Obsolete.

Secondly who assumes that older people are a minority,and that they're "obsolete“ They often have a strong influence on UK politics as they are most likely to vote

A quick summary of the so called "old and obsolete views" from previous post (two above or something) where the assumption is their old fashion dated views on immigrant etc ... I say there is nothing wrong with their views but someone says they are wrong. Ok, now continue ...

Are you saying that old people have voted wrongly because they have decided to vote for party that they see fit? Thus influencing the UK politics against immigrants? 😯

By your assumption old people are the majority voters hence they naturally gravitate towards voting against immigrants because they are most likely to vote and you feel that they are unjust ...? 😯

gofasterstripes - Member

I'm going to think a little longer how to respond to the rest of that, but for the record my view of Israel is that having had a lot of apalling treatment, repressed and victimised and then been 'created' a land, a large number of Isrealis are nationistic, hardline and intolerant. Especially those who are in charge within the present government.

FFS! Leave that region alone and let them sort themselves out. 🙄

FFS! Leave that region alone and let them sort themselves out.

You keep making assumptions. I didn't say anything about intervening.

Anyway - I've said enough, especially as it's off topic.

I don't think there are many who would try and copy an Isreali model in terms of creating a new country, not me for sure. Not least as the migrants themselves are from many different countries and cultures,