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im sure i read that we had supplied helicopters to syria
certainly we sold plenty of arms to assad when we liked him
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/07/17/uk-britain-arms-exports-idUKBRE96G0Q620130717
Parts for bullet-proof vehicles and underwater listening devices were approved for export to Syria
o Syria for body armor, military helmets and cryptographic software.
http://www.rt.com/uk/243085-uk-arms-human-rights/
weve certainly helped flood the region with weapons and the russian state miltary exporter Rosboronexport, is still invited to ExCel every year for our famous arms fair
[img] 
[/img]
apparently were selling components to russia for the helicopters http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/arms-export-licences-russia-pm-embargo-report
Really. The Syrian airforce operates Russian French and Polish helicopters according to wikipaedia. A captured Syrian pilot says it's the Russian ones dropping barrel bombs. Maybe the Russians should take some miigrants?
No you're right - we only sold them the chemical weapons they have used against the civilian population, and armed the rebels (that turned into/turned out to be ISIS).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28212724
Oh, and sold military equipment to Russia and Iran that they then sold on to Assad. Oh and actually we still had contracts to directly supply Assad until very recently.
But other than that - great point - no blood on our hands at all.
JY Germany should have announced a complete plan including transport
It has emerged today that the Syrian family had applied to Canada as refugees and had been sponsored by a Canadian family (a "G5" application). This was rejected as the UN does not classify Syrian Kurds as refugees and the Turks will not give exit visas.
This crises is creating huge divisions in Europe and laid bare the EUs inability to manage the situation. The Austrians have made it clear they will not check people's papers. The Hungarians have said Europe's Christian roots are under threat and they will not allow their country to become a Caliphate. The Slovakians (a coup,e of weeks ago) said they will not take any Muslims as there are no Mosques in Slovakia. I don't support either of these statements, I repeat them to show the stresses being created.
On the channel 4 Labour leaders debate there where many words about doing more but oine would commit to a total figure of refugees despite being pressed repeatedly. For all the words here on STW Labour politicians are well aware that making such commitments do not play well with the electorate. Corbyn was repeatedly asked and had no number, not even a range
as they were fleeing to Canada and turkey wont give exit visas [ you need a passport] who could disagree that the lack of travel plans by the Germans caused this
Again your logic is a delight to see.
Evidence for the UN Position on Syrian Kurds please
Something credible from the UN not a paper or something you saw from your car
Labour politicians are well aware that making such commitments do not play well with the electorate. Corbyn was repeatedly asked and had no number, not even a range
Yvette Cooper floated a figure of 10,000 yesterday. A trifling, inconsequential amount compared to Germany's 800,000+, but a big improvement on the figure of none presently favoured by Dave and chums.
It seems that the UKIP-isation of UK politics has reached the point that even expressing the wish to help traumatised refugees, and stop small children drowning in the sea, is regarded as unsayable, as it doesn't fit with the bigotted Little Englander narrative dictated by Nige.
Have we ever been ruled by such political pygmies? From both sides of the political debate. When they won't stand up, and even try and make a case for common decency, and our moral obligation towards these people, for fear of tomorrows hysterical Daily Mail headlines
Pathetic!
For all the words here on STW Labour politicians are well aware that making such commitments do not play well with the electorate.
Is the UK electorate fundamentally different to the German electorate in that respect then?
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11824695/Violence-against-refugee-centres-in-Germany-increases-with-two-new-attacks.html ]Violence against refugee centres in Germany increases with two new attacks[/url]
Sometimes the views and opinions of bigots, including islamophobic zionists like you, should to be ignored.
weve certainly helped flood the region with weapons
I'm happy with that. If we didn't sell them military equipment it wouldn't turn the Middle East into an earthly paradise. They would buy elsewhere.
If foreign arms sale help fund our defence industry that's fine by me. It supports British jobs and retains expertise.
... 😯
Is the UK electorate fundamentally different to the German electorate in that respect then?
Yes, they haven't got an EU membership referendum looming 😆
Why do we always have to measure everything in terms of money rather than actual help, decency, compassion and outcome?
Because it is an exceedingly good indication that we have not been sitting on our hands doing nothing as suggested by many on here and elsewhere.
What do you want to do now?
If there was an easy answer we wouldn't have a problem, I don't really know. However, what I do know is that it is entirely unfair to suggest we have done nothing and I posted mainly to refute that.
I would also add while Germany's position is, on the face of it, noble, it is also fits in with their needs. First, they have a declining population so to maintain their present system they need to increase their workforce. Second, they have a political desire to maintain Schengen on which this crisis is putting significant pressure. This is not a criticism, it just makes the action they are taking easier - I am not convinced it is the best course as there are arguments that it creates pull factors. On the other hand, I imagine life in the camps is sufficiently awful that the grass doesn't need to be that green elsewhere to leave. As I said, really difficult and I really don't know.
I don't know why you think your completely irrelevant comment is funny ninfan, Germany will be facing plenty of elections in the future in which the electorate will have their say.
Still, I'm sure you've probably got your reason. Even though you regularly appear to laugh inanely at bizarre things.
I don't support either of these statements
Sure you don't.
I think a lot of people's concerns (and rightly too) are that mixed up with the genuine refugees, there are a whole hoard of people who are tagging along simply because they fancy a better life in a more prosperous country. Some of the young men being interviewed at the Calais camp unfortunately appeared to be firmly in the latter group. But how to tell the difference, that's the hard part?
Also what do we do with the refugees when they get to the UK? Should we house them in big tented camps or ex military facilities and keep them there until it's safe to return? Should they be distributed among families willing to put them up but also run the risk that when it's time for them to return home, they simply vanish into the UK's illegal immigrant population?
Or should the UK be funding and building safe camps (with schools, medical facilities etc) protected by military peacekeepers in Syria or surrounding countries to guarantee the safety of citizens within their country of origin? Might be a good and ethical way to use our military for once?
We have to help in some way, don't think anyone is disagreeing with that, it's just whats the best way to help for both the benefit of the refugees but also the rest of us who actually live in the UK?
Just to add, there's a lot of people on here (plus Facebook etc) saying and writing (probably from a comfy sofa whilst drinking a latte) how terrible this crisis is and that we should take action, but would anyone on here themselves actually be willing to open their doors to hosting a Syrian refugee family in their own house for an extended period, say 2-3 years?
well theres 250 bedrooms in buckingham palace...
I think a lot of people's concerns (and rightly too) are that mixed up with the genuine refugees, there are a whole hoard of people who are tagging along simply because they fancy a better life in a more prosperous country. Some of the young men being interviewed at the Calais camp unfortunately appeared to be firmly in the latter group. But how to tell the difference, that's the hard part?
So in order to stop a few or even a lot of economic migrants are you willing to let countless genuine refugees die/suffer? That's the policy we are pursuing at the moment.
Just to add, there's a lot of people on here (plus Facebook etc) saying and writing (probably from a comfy sofa whilst drinking a latte) how terrible this crisis is and that we should take action, but would anyone on here themselves actually be willing to open their doors to hosting a Syrian refugee family in their own house for an extended period, say 2-3 years?
Several of us on here have already said that we would. I'm looking into organisations that can help facilitate this. So there's that attempt at justifying your own lack of compassion out the window.
And there's what was it, 600,000 empty properties in this country (but also a 'housing crisis')?
We have to help in some way, don't think anyone is disagreeing with that
I'm pretty sure they are.
I'm happy with that. If we didn't sell them military equipment it wouldn't turn the Middle East into an earthly paradise. They would buy elsewhere.If foreign arms sale help fund our defence industry that's fine by me. It supports British jobs and retains expertise.
You're happy that British companies supplied the ingredients to make the Sarin being used against civilians in Syria. Wow. And to think people say that right-wingers lack compassion eh?
Because it is an exceedingly good indication that we have not been sitting on our hands doing nothing as suggested by many on here and elsewhere.
I think folk have suggested we have not done enough. The fact we paid some money doe snot disprove this as we may need to measure the outcome in something like say less dead babies in the sea.
Several of us on here have already said that we would. I'm looking into organisations that can help facilitate this. So there's that attempt at justifying your own lack of compassion out the window.
Good on you, don't think I would to be honest (apart from the fact we don't have a big house with a spare room). Which organizations have you approached and how have you got on - is this possible?
And there's what was it, 600,000 empty properties in this country (but also a 'housing crisis')?
This is all well and good and I'd be more than happy to see empty housing stock brought back into use, but what would you say to all those UK families who are currently in temporary B and B accommodation who've been on the housing lists for years waiting for an available social house to become free?
@agent007 - Member
"Just to add, there's a lot of people on here (plus Facebook etc) saying and writing (probably from a comfy sofa whilst drinking a latte) how terrible this crisis is and that we should take action, but would anyone on here themselves actually be willing to open their doors to hosting a Syrian refugee family in their own house for an extended period, say 2-3 years? "
This really is completely spurious, I could equally claim that there are many folk on here who support the UK's current policy on refugees who claim to be distressed by the death toll, but it would be wrong to help those in need as it would not end the conflict that caused many of the refugees to leave their homes in the first place. Utterly ridiculous and callous
There are many people concerned about crime
None of them are dressing up in customers and patrolling the streets at night catching criminals
People can support wars without having to join the army
I can support the NHS and think we should do more without having to go and perform operations on folk in my spare time
FWIW I would gladly house some and I am sure some other people would be willing to do this as well
No doubt you will label me as lowest of the low
Nah, you were pretty much already there from my point of view. Still, you've got your nice safe job in a nice safe country, why should you give a **** about anyone else?
I don't want to go over old ground and regurgitate what has already been said, but one thought has been toiling in my mind.
Many of the images I have seen have contained people holding babies and extremely young children, why on earth are they reproducing in a place they don't deem safe enough for themselves to live in?
This in no way is related to my view on what we should be doing as a nation regarding the overall issue.
why on earth are they reproducing in a place they don't deem safe enough for themselves to live in?
Have a word with your mum and dad about it. In the meantime I hope this helps....
why on earth are they reproducing in a place they don't deem safe enough for themselves to live in?
Lack of education of women, lack of healthcare, lack of contraception, lack of knowledge about conception [or false information]..... oh and lack of social provisions such as pensions and other Social Securities.
You know, the usual stuff.
What gofasterstripes said +
and
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9296135/Syria-using-rape-as-weapon-against-opposition-women-and-men.html
and why might people want to move on from "safe" countries http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/26/syria-women-rape_n_4166185.html
You're happy that Britsh companies supplied the ingredients to make the Sarin being used against civilians in Syria. Wow. And to think people say that right-wingers lack compassion eh?
It's possible to sell arms while setting limits on what is sold. Right wingers? It was Lasbour in govt when Syria bought the chemicals.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/17/sarin-deadly-history-nerve-agent-syria-un
The Conservative govt wanted to take action against Assad because of the chemical weapons threat. Labour wouldn't support them.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/aug/30/cameron-mps-syria
It's possible to sell arms while setting limits on what is sold. Right wingers? It was Lasbour in govt when Syria bought the chemicals.
'Britain sold chemicals and components to Syria that ended up being used in the manufacture of the deadly nerve agent sarin, BBC Newsnight can reveal.
[b]A leaked Foreign Office document says they were supplied in the mid-1980s.[/b]
Foreign Secretary William Hague said UK firms provided the materials and that Syria has admitted they played a role in its chemical weapons programme.'
Irrelevant whataboutery anyway, I wasn't talking about the actions of our government, which under both parties has been disgraceful. The point is that you are perfectly comfortable with us 'flooding the region with arms' including chemical weapons as long as the money keeps flowing into UK coffers. Typical right-wing attitude of money over morals. The new tactic we've seen here of actually slagging others off for not being as amoral as them is particularly galling.
As I already pointed out we were also still suppling military equipment to the Syrian regime recently even while discussing arming the rebels/ISIS, and still selling military equipment to Iran and Russia knowing it would probably be used for all sorts of nefarious purposes including supply to the Syrian regime. But I'm sure you're perfectly comfortable with all this, and don't see how we possibly have any responsibility to the Syrian people.
George Osborne* has said he is "very distressed" at the images of dead children washed up on beaches. But not distressed enough to do anything about it. Its all the fault of ISIS apparently. Which we of course had nothing to do with establishing in the region.
* have you noticed he's getting in plenty of practice at being Dave? Where is Dave, anyway?
The point is that you are perfectly comfortable with us 'flooding the region with arms' including chemical weapons
Did he mention chemical weapons ?
Did he mention chemical weapons ?
Well after I pointed out that we had supplied chemical weapons to the Syrian regime he said 'If foreign arms sale help fund our defence industry that's fine by me. It supports British jobs and retains expertise.'
If he's really outraged by it he has a funny way of showing it.
Chemical weapons or no - anyone who supports the idea that we should be arming both sides in a unimaginably brutal civil war is frankly a despicable person (most polite way I can come up with for saying that).
I'm sorry to bring party politics into this but I do think the Tory party are really showing their true colours here. Yet another thing for Tory voters to be proud of.
The Labour leadership front-runner said Britain was being "shamed by our European neighbours" by refusing to take in more than just a few hundred Syrian refugees and said we were failing in our duty under international law and "as human beings" to offer those fleeing conflict a place of safety....
Britain has granted asylum to less than 300 Syrian refugees since the start of 2014 - an embarrassing number compared to Germany, where up to 800,000 refugees are expected to be registered this year alone.
Jeremy Corbyn accused David Cameron of being 'shamed' by his European counterparts over his refusal to accept more than just a few hundred Syrian refugees into the UK Jeremy Corbyn accused David Cameron of being 'shamed' by his European counterparts over his refusal to accept more than just a few hundred Syrian refugees into the UK Even smaller nations such as Norway, Sweden, Ireland and Finland have offered more places to Syrians fleeing their war-ravaged country than Britain has.
vs
“I don’t think there is an answer that can be achieved simply by taking more and more refugees.”
By more and more presumably he means more than 300.
Well after I pointed out that we had supplied chemical weapons to the Syrian regime
Not quite true though is it?
In the eighties, we supplied a variety chemicals to a number of nations, some of these chemicals had, in addition to legal and perfectly legitimate industrial applications, uses within the production of Sarin (an organophosphate compound closely related to legitimate agrochemicals) and VX. On recognition that these nations were producing CW, the government brought in restrictions, and later analysis has shown that some of those chemicals supplied before the restrictions were used in the production of nerve agents such as Sarin, along with legitimate uses.
Hardly the same as 'supplying them with chemical weapons' is it? It's like saying that we sold them aviation fuel that was used in helicopters (as well as civilian airliners) or steel that was used to make guns (as well as bridges)
Anyone who genuinely thinks the tide is turning and compassion for fellow man in regards to the refugee scenario in Calais is coming to the fore should take a look at the utterly vitriolic hatred being spouted on the Facebook comments of this Justgiving page.
People are actually willing to put their names to these comments. The privileged scum that resides in this country is making me feel sick.
https://crowdfunding.justgiving.com/solidarity
Britain has granted asylum to less than 300 Syrian refugees since the start of 2014 -
Don't let the truth get in the way o your spouting.
"Official government figures show that we had 1,688 asylum applications from Syrians in 2014, and a further 2,204 in 2015."
http://order-order.com/#:OQ0Bha3AbSURHA
Don't let the truth get in the way o your spouting.
OK.
Britain has granted asylum to [u]around 3000[/u] Syrian refugees since the start of 2014 - an embarrassing number compared to Germany, where [u]up to 800,000[/u] refugees are expected to be registered this year alone.
That's all right now, yes?
Well, it seems the figure of 300 is slightly wrong, it refers to 'resettlement' rather than the total number of asylum applications granted.
The scheme was launched after the UN refugee agency asked countries to take in 130,000 Syrian refugees above and beyond their ordinary asylum intake.
https://fullfact.org/factcheck/immigration/uk_216_syrian_refugees-45984
So it's either 216 vs 35,000 (UK vs Germany) or 5000 vs a potential 800,000 (uk vs Germany)
vs 1-2 million in Turkey, and 1 million in Lebanon.
Any way you look at it it's utterly pathetic.
Isn't there a difference between asylum applications and asylum granted ?
[url= http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06805 ]Here are accurate figures for UK[/url]
Germany is going to process 800,000 but I believe only plan to keep half - still a very big number.
All those refugees in Lebanon, Jordan etc we have provided £900 million in aid more than the rest of Europe put together - pathetic isn't it.
People are actually willing to put their names to these comments. The privileged scum that resides in this country is making me feel sick.
It's all the old white people. What a surprise. I have had much the same conversation with someone this morning. English, mind you, not Dutch.
Here are accurate figures for UK
According to the link :
[i]Over 4,000 Syrians have been granted asylum in the UK since the start of the humanitarian crisis[/i]
The start of the humanitarian crisis was 2011, so that's 4,000 over 4 years, or an average of about 1,000 per year.
Also from the UK Gov link :
[i]The scheme prioritises victims of sexual violence and torture, and the elderly and disabled. The Government expects that several hundred refugees will arrive in the UK through the scheme over three years, although there is no fixed quota. The resettled refugees are given five years’ Humanitarian Protection status, with permission to work and access public funds.[/i]
So that's "several hundred" not "several thousand" over 3 years, and it would appear that the welcome is only for 5 years.
Shameful.
All those refugees in Lebanon, Jordan etc we have provided £900 million in aid more than the rest of Europe put together - pathetic isn't it.
What has this £900,000,000 done to alleviate the situation? I mean, where has it gone? Seems to me that that £ could fund a lot of safe places for people to live here, and integrate and rehabilitate them. When they are able to return [no denying there's much to do there as well], they'll be grateful and keen to work with the people who helped them.
EDIT: To put it another way, it doesn't seem to be helping prevent the people from fleeing.
It's all the old white people. What a surprise.
Really.......all the old white people? No old white people care? How remarkable.
What has this £900,000,000 done to alleviate the situation? I mean, where has it gone?
Like most foreign aid, it'll be in the Swiss bank account of a dodgy dictator. But that invariably finds its way back into the British economy, by being laundered through 'The City' then in the purchase of exclusive London properties and luxury cars
Its a win/win 😀
Sorry Ernie, that wasn't specific enough was it.
What I mean is the people who are saying "send 'em back" are, as far as I have seen, old white Brits.
Not that all old white Brits feel that way.
"I like my migrants like my money...offshore"
-David Cameron
All those refugees in Lebanon, Jordan etc we have provided £900 million in aid more than the rest of Europe put together - pathetic isn't it.
And we still take in more asylum seekers than 22 of the 28 EU nations - bastards!
Stand well back! Dave's arrived.
He's restated that simply taking in more refugees (or any at all) is not a viable long term solution. What is a long term solution is the establishment of a government in Libya, and to sort out the situation in Syria. He didn't mention Iraq or Eritrea. He must have sorted those already
So there you have it. He didn't give any details of how he was going to manage both those tasks, but I suspect he'll probably have it sorted in a few weeks, and everyone can go back home to live in peace
Yay for Dave!
What has this £900,000,000 done to alleviate the situation? I mean, where has it gone?
[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/455330/DFID_Syria_Crisis_Response_Summary__2015.08.20_.pdf ]Here you go[/url]
Here you goSanitation/Hygiene: Number of instances when people have benefited
from sanitation and hygiene activities55 6,550,951
6 and a half million poos !!
What I mean is the people who are saying "send 'em back" are, as far as I have seen, old white Brits.
Fair enough.......some 'old white Brits' are right arseholes. No one can deny that.
[img] 
[/img]
In response to the crisis, the UK has [b]allocated[/b] £900 million since 2012 to over 30 implementing partners (including United Nations agencies, international non-governmental organisations and the Red Cross)
my emphasis... call me a cynic but "allocated" is a word you can play with, as opposed to, oh I dunno... [b]given[/b] the banks 133 billion in cash, that seems pretty straight forward
my emphasis... call me a cynic but "allocated" is a word you can play with...
But further down you will see an analysis of the £653 million that has been spent to the end of March 2015.
The irony of this thread is that those on here shouting the loudest about being liberal, tolerance and compassionate for refugees are those who also seem most willing to shout down any one who has even dares to have slightly differing views from their own the refugee/migration crisis.
Now there's liberal tolerance and compassion for you! Doh 🙄
The irony of this thread is that those on here shouting the loudest about being liberal, tolerance and compassionate for refugees are those who also seem most willing to shout down any one who has even dares to have slightly differing views from their own the refugee/migration crisis.
It's not really ironic that we have compassion for those who've been through unimaginable hardship but a bit less for whiny, cosseted British people with a massive sense of entitlement trying to justify their lack of basic human decency.
It's not 'shouting down' anyone it's strongly disagreeing with you. If you can't handle that it's your problem.
agent007 - Memberthose who also seem most willing to shout down any one who has even dares to have slightly differing views ......
Who's shouting down who ?
There's no volume on this forum, everyone can be heard just as clearly as anyone else.
Even cheez0 who claimed on another thread that the drowned toddler washed up on a beach was part of an Islamic invasion which wants to destroy our country could be heard loud and clear :
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/please-help-what-can-i-do/page/3#post-7149035
I think the problem agent007 is that you don't like people criticising extreme views of intolerance. You think it is "unliberal" to do so, and presumably you would have been much happier if everyone had agreed with cheez0's extreme bigoted views and not criticised him/her.
cheez0 actually got surprisingly little criticism - check it, so much for your shouting down of [i]"slightly differing views"[/i].
What a bunch of self opinionated, Self- righteous, lefty tree hugging self satisfied cycle riding, video camera wearing naïve appeasers you are on this ****ing site.
Children are dying and people are homeless in the UK too, what's there to be ashamed of? I didn't tell the parents to put their kids in a dodgy dingy, what sort of responsible parent would do that when Turkey is the nearest Muslim safe country? **** me, the chav white scum in the UK even take their all inclusive holidays there, so it isn't exactly a war zone.
One minute these people are shouting " death to the infidels" and burning the Union flag and the next minute they are beating a path to the infidels" doorway, soon when they establish their own little Syria and little Iraq in the UK or other European countries it will be back to business and "death to the infidels" all over again.
They hate our culture, our religion, and our way of life, yet they can't live with each other, they have been in conflict with each other for a thousand years, long before Bush and Blair. Their religious wars and conflicts have driven them apart, now they are fleeing to predominantly Christian lands, where is the rush to get into countries that are more like theirs in religion and culture? Where is the rush to oil rich Saudi Arabia, or Qatar? Why is no pressure being brought to bear on Muslim states to help these people? Their silence is deafening.
We are going to leave a terrible legacy to our children and their children by encouraging the influx of people who will never integrate into our own culture, people who will never accept our way of life and traditions, however eccentric they may seem.
Am I ashamed? Am I ashamed because I want to preserve my culture, economy, heritage and legacy? Am I ashamed because I cherish my freedom, peace and quality life?
To people on this site I am shameful and guilty. I am not ashamed, the politicians expect me to sacrifice my lifestyle and my country.
The Eurocrats sit in their citadel of corruption and tell me I should compromise my country that my grandfather fought and died for in the name of political correctness, in adherence to a cancerous and self-destructive "progressive" and "liberal" ideology, that spits in the face of democracy and freedom and coerces and bullies people into following its lies and delusions.
Am I ashamed? no I am not.
Your freedom was earned with the blood of many immigrants, and is defended by just as many. You, whichever way you dress it, are a racist and the worst of what this country has to offer.
Nah your just really ignorant superstar
Ashamed? No. Reductionist to the point of idiocy? Yes...
Where is the rush to oil rich Saudi Arabia,
A Syrian alawite or Shia Muslim would be well advised to think long and hard before seeking refuge in Sunni Saudi Arabia
Congratulations Moose, you are the first to deploy the race card for today.
I'll bet a pound against a piece of shit that you're all young punks that know no better and have been injected at 'Uni' in between back packing around Australia.
When your country, your life and freedom goes arse about tit, and when you've all finished crying into your latte, look me up because you WILL need people like me.
I think you played the race guard but it is rather hard to tell as you seem to hate everyone
Congartulations superstar1, you're wrong on many levels. I'm 38, 39 next week, have served in the Army since 1996, have deployed multiple time to Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan. What have you done, apart from spread your hate and vitriol, oh and spin the same old dirt about your grandfather fighting and dying. Pretty sure if he had any pride in his uniform and country he'd be ashamed of you.
I DO NOT need people like you, nor will I ever. I have 18 year old soldier who have a better values, standards and humanity than you could ever hope for. The same people I can rely on to stand up and do the right thing when it counts. You keep dreaming your EDL/BF dream, the reality is when things get kinetic you'd wet your pants like a load of pre-teens at a one direction concert.
As for race card, maybe. But the difference is I've served with people from all over the world, I've gone to war with them. I'd take them over someone like you any day.
Well said moose, thank you.
Congratulations Moose, you are the first to deploy the race card for today.
Playing the race card? It's just pointing out that what you are saying is racist - this is a simple fact. If you were being very generous you could describe this as an extremely crass generalisation I suppose.
One minute these people are shouting " death to the infidels" and burning the Union flag and the next minute they are beating a path to the infidels" doorway
Superstar1 has gone quiet all of a sudden...wonder why...
Hopefully he has been banned for life.
moose - Member
But the difference is I've served with people from all over the world, I've gone to war with them. I'd take them over someone like you any day.
This is where the soldier is lost in reality.
You see the civilian world is very different from the people you encountered in other part of the world. In fact two different world whether you like it or not.
In the civilian world (I refer them as "West") the majority rules i.e. democracy, whereas in the army world you follow a strict hierarchy. You follow order. You are not there to think. If you change side you will do the same to the people who you befriend previously.
Your views on some being better than others are confusing as you simply cannot compare cultural differences and perspectives, just because you fought in those regions.
They might be accommodating and might be brave to fight along side you in the war but have you ever thought about the stake they have in their environment?
They fought alongside you because you are on the same side ...
p/s: My father was in the British army and according to him ...
The Scots fought well and brave,
the Irish fought well and brave,
the Welsh fought well and brave,
the King African rifle fought well and brave,
the Gurkhas fought well and brave,
the Kiwi fought well and brave,
the Aussie fought well and brave,
the English was/is very good at marching ... very nice uniform and the marching was/is orderly.
(I don't know your ethnicity but that is just the common knowledge in those days.)
Common misconceptions you have there. In fact most of what you wrote is plain wrong. We do question, it is encouraged. The way we learn, improve and evolve is through questioning. It still amazes me that people think of the military as an archaic organisation full of drones. It couldn't be further from the truth.
Having served in those areas, as well as having spent a great deal of time prior being educated by the same people from those areas about their culture, I'd say it puts me in a far better place of understanding than an armchair general.
Also, you are aware of the wide variety of ethnicities that have served in the British armed forces? The Muslims, Sikhs, Fijians and Africans to name a few?
Be very careful with your veiled insults, I may forget my manners. I've buried some of the most dedicated, selfless and professional Englishmen I've had the privilege to serve with and call friends.
Hopefully he has been banned for life.
Actually, I hope not. His stance will unite people against xenophobia; he is inadvertently the architect of his own fear-led and frightened downfall. Pity him for his fear.
moose - Member
Common misconceptions you have there. In fact most of what you wrote is plain wrong. We do question, it is encouraged. The way we learn, improve and evolve is through questioning. It still amazes me that people think of the military as an archaic organisation full of drones. It couldn't be further from the truth.
Yes, technically you may think that you have the rights to questions etc but if you compare that to the civilian world then they are entirely two different perspectives. To the civilian world you are there to follow order and you simply cannot resign mid way or walk out in the middle of the war etc ...
Be very careful with your veiled insults, I may forget my manners.
In the civilian world you get all sorts and I am merely referring to what my father once told long time ago. There is nothing viled there ... he was in the British army and that was his observation.
Comments negative or positive are all part of who we are ... it is loosing the temper (then degenerates in violence) that creates all the conflicts in this world.
The question is can you remain calm just because you don't like to hear others saying?
Oh ya, your threat(I assumed but if I assumed wrong I am wrong) is a disgrace to your uniform because this is exactly the kind of attitude that brought about the demise of the army and give them a bad reputation for going awol in civilian world. (in a clam tone and not angry or shouting btw)
Also, you are aware of the wide variety of ethnicities that have served in the British armed forces? The Muslims, Sikhs, Fijians and Africans to name a few?
Yeap, he fought along side them too ... in addition to those that I listed above. I am not making this up by the way just to win an argument/discussion. I actually laughed at my father for moving around different troops only to get a kick in the backside.
bullheart - Member
Hopefully he has been banned for life.
Actually, I hope not. His stance will unite people against xenophobia; he is inadvertently the architect of his own fear-led and frightened downfall. Pity him for his fear.
Why? Because s/he has different opinion and world view? Are we all supposed to think alike? 😯
Oh please. Save your faux hurt for others who may care. Your tact is as subtle as a brick to the face. I've had to remain calm in far more sensitive situations than an Internet forum. It's why I'm still employed. As for the questioning, you're way off base. I've seen far harsher and stricter working practises imposed on civilians and people getting sacked for things that aren't even an issue in the military.
As for me being a disgrace to my uniform, in your opinion maybe. Thankfully your opinion matters not to me. An opinion based on secondhand, dated and inaccurate information, riddled with stereotypes and assumptions.
Again your very limp insults, soldiers go AWOL for a variety of reasons. Some genuine, some not. But I assume you are implying about the mental state and issues with their behaviour in society. They're only human and represent a cross section of society. Sometimes we get it wrong and the wrong people get in, sometimes service life takes its toll and they break mentally. But I wouldn't be as arrogant as you and judge a man unless I'd walked a mile in his shoes. That's if he has still got feet.
And I will add, if I forget my manners it is because you annoyed and or irritated me. But to assume it implies some kind of threat or violence? That speaks more about you and your perception of people's reactions to your deliberate trolling than of me.
I'm keenly aware of when and how to apply the threat of or violence. In the civilian world that I also exist in, it is rarely ever needed. I much prefer to not find myself in those kinds of confrontations. They're tiring and demoralising.
Violence is a tool, a tool that should be used in a controlled and deliberate manner. Among my peers we often have robust and vigorous debate, it never ends in violence. Because we are professional and respectful. Maybe if more civilians read the values and standards of the British army the UK might be a less divisive place.
The British Army’s cores values are:
Selfless Commitment: Soldiers are expected to put the needs of the mission, and their team, before their own. This is what makes the Army an effective team.
Respect for Others: The Army believes in equal treatment and opportunity for everyone. Soldiers are expected to respect each other, victims of conflict, prisoners and civilians.
Loyalty: Bringing soldiers together, loyalty means that soldiers will always be true to our country, the Army, their officers and each other.
Integrity: This means that soldiers must always be honest and truthful, and put the needs of the team before their own.
Discipline: A disciplined soldier will obey orders, even under difficult conditions, and act with imagination and resourcefulness.
Courage: The physical courage to place yourself in danger and the moral courage to do what is right are equally important.
The British Army’s standards are:
Be Lawful: Soldiers have to abide by the law of the United Kingdom as well as international law when they are on operations.
Behave Appropriately: Everyone in the Army is expected to keep to certain standards. That’s why misbehaviour like racism, bullying and harassment is not tolerated anywhere in the Army.
Be the Best: Soldiers are expected to do their jobs to the best of their ability. They should avoid excess alcohol use and misuse of drugs, and be in charge of their finances.
There's a lot more detail and some of the points cover more areas now. But it gives you an idea of what the majority strive for. Not saying it's the be all and end all or that every soldier even tries, there have been some epic failures. But it's not too bad and ultimately what sets us apart from civilians. But do think for one minute we're brainwashed drones.
moose - Member
I've seen far harsher and stricter working practises imposed on civilians and people getting sacked for things that aren't even an issue in the military.
Ya, I can agree with that coz I have seen that happened for whatever reasons ...
Your tact is as subtle as a brick to the face.
Ya, I know poor effort on my end coz that's how I express myself on interweb but in the real world ... things just fly pass me ...
As for me being a disgrace to my uniform, in your opinion maybe. Thankfully your opinion matters not to me. An opinion based on secondhand, dated and inaccurate information, riddled with stereotypes and assumptions.
😀 Okay ... let's agree to disagree.
But I assume you are implying about the mental state and issues with their behaviour in society.
Oh no I was not referring to the mental health at all. That would be very low for me ...
But I wouldn't be as arrogant as you and judge a man unless I'd walked a mile in his shoes. That's if he has still got feet.
I am not judging you but merely illustrating different perspectives from two different people in different environments. Different interpretation etc ...
Anyway, back to the current topic ...
😛
p/s: no worry about all your comments. I accept all perspectives from and viewpoints as everyone is different and I find them fascinating. I may question them or agitate/annoy them but I am here to learn too ...
There's a lot more detail and some of the points cover more areas now. But it gives you an idea of what the majority strive for. Not saying it's the be all and end all or that every soldier even tries, there have been some epic failures. But it's not too bad and ultimately what sets us apart from civilians. But do think for one minute we're brainwashed drones.
No, I am not saying you are a brainwashed drone. No such assumption at all.
On the other hand others have frequently refer to me as a zombie maggot ...
Quite an interesting exchange, that.
Something I was thinking earlier, if the Hungarian PM is saying he's concerned to let so many Muslims in, maybe he's not only wrong but dead wrong.
If, being positive for a moment, this melting pot succeeds, could it perhaps be a crucial step towards tolerance and the abandonment of the relative importance of such petty differences?
I'm not very keen on religion, mostly because it seems to divide so much, but if for whatever reason that was to change that might be a great thing.
Could it form ties that transgress the petty boundaries?
He may be wrong, dead wrong even. But he is the PM of a country where 2/3 of the population is against allowing refugees to enter the country (in Poland it is closer to 70%). So what is HIS democratic mandate? To represent what we may think, or what those he represents think?
What a bunch of self opinionated, Self- righteous, lefty tree hugging self satisfied cycle riding, video camera wearing naïve appeasers you are on this * site.Children are dying and people are homeless in the UK too, what's there to be ashamed of? I didn't tell the parents to put their kids in a dodgy dingy, what sort of responsible parent would do that when Turkey is the nearest Muslim safe country?
* me, the chav white scum in the UK even take their all inclusive holidays there, so it isn't exactly a war zone.One minute these people are shouting " death to the infidels" and burning the Union flag and the next minute they are beating a path to the infidels" doorway, soon when they establish their own little Syria and little Iraq in the UK or other European countries it will be back to business and "death to the infidels" all over again.
They hate our culture, our religion, and our way of life, yet they can't live with each other, they have been in conflict with each other for a thousand years, long before Bush and Blair. Their religious wars and conflicts have driven them apart, now they are fleeing to predominantly Christian lands, where is the rush to get into countries that are more like theirs in religion and culture? Where is the rush to oil rich Saudi Arabia, or Qatar? Why is no pressure being brought to bear on Muslim states to help these people? Their silence is deafening.
We are going to leave a terrible legacy to our children and their children by encouraging the influx of people who will never integrate into our own culture, people who will never accept our way of life and traditions, however eccentric they may seem.
Am I ashamed? Am I ashamed because I want to preserve my culture, economy, heritage and legacy? Am I ashamed because I cherish my freedom, peace and quality life?
To people on this site I am shameful and guilty. I am not ashamed, the politicians expect me to sacrifice my lifestyle and my country.
The Eurocrats sit in their citadel of corruption and tell me I should compromise my country that my grandfather fought and died for in the name of political correctness, in adherence to a cancerous and self-destructive "progressive" and "liberal" ideology, that spits in the face of democracy and freedom and coerces and bullies people into following its lies and delusions.
Am I ashamed? no I am not.
Well said......it's about time someone said it...+10000000000000 from me and many others
Something I was thinking earlier, if the Hungarian PM is saying he's concerned to let so many Muslims in, maybe he's not only wrong but dead wrong.
The way I see it, this could be a perfect opportunity to counter the present Islamist narrative
The muslims fleeing Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan are running away from the representatives of a perverse, corrupted form of their religion, and their nihilistic barbarism. They have seen the true horrors that this ideology perpetrates in the name of their god.
Meanwhile in Europe we have a young, 2nd or 3rd generation, disenfranchised muslim youth that, suitably far removed from the harsh, brutal reality of ISIS looks to it for inspiration and a sense of belonging. It idealises it it a hopelessly romanticised way. Ignoring the bad bits, or somehow seeing it as just. It rejects western values as corrupt.
So maybe we have a chance to reassert that western values can be more altruistic and inclusive by accepting these refugees, and in turn these refugees can put paid, once and for all, to these ludicrously romanticised views of ISIS and their ilk as representative of Islam by exposing to western Muslim communities the true horror of what it is they really represent.
Just a thought
To people on this site I am shameful and guilty. I am not ashamed, the politicians expect me to sacrifice my lifestyle and my country.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but if it's the crux of the argument, you're wrong. It doesn't mean that.
I think that's the way some of the UK press frames it, but it's just not correct.
10,000 refugees is 10 per UK settlement, right? Why do you have to give anything up?
You have put it far more eloquently than I, but, yes binners, that's what I meant.
Well said......it's about time someone said it...+10000000000000 from me and many others
Bravo, not even bright enough to do your own racist trolling
Well Said Binners
Our culture is not under threat as we assimilate everything it is what we do
Remember when Mick Jagger and the 60's lifestyle was the threat to the establishment. Now he is a tax avoidaing Knight.
The West is superb at adapting to change [ whilst always keeping the real power in the same place]
Well said......it's about time someone said it...+10000000000000 from me and many others
I do so love it when the "silent majority" creep out and remind us how many folk agree with them despite the fact almost no one is saying this.
I have to say moose gave you one hell of a kicking there and well said Moose
It was interesting to read a counter narrative on the army as I would not be amongst your keenest supporters
I do sometimes need to be reminded that is largely made up of good people being told to do questionable things by bad politicians.