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An update here on the ongoing saga.
Cairngorm Railway Shambles sounds like a Fall song title
HIE (before that HIDB) was always intended to be an autonomous organisation which could act without waiting for the government of the day to authorise action. HIE was overseen by its own board who generally could be said to hae interest in the Highlands and knowledge of the issues. In 2016 the Scottish government place HIE and many other formerly independent organisations under the control of a single central board largely losing access to all that expertise and interest that HIE formerly had access to. Replaced by an overwhelmingly central belt committee.
I appreciate that this post does not contribute much to the issue of mismanagement of the funicular but so long as rural or remote areas are seen as a resource for visitors and not a place where people live this type of mismanagement will continue and will very likely get worse
Cairngorm Railway Shambles sounds like a Fall song title
HMHB more like!
binners
Full MemberCairngorm Railway Shambles sounds like a Fall song title
I was thinking Mogwai
In 2016 the Scottish government place HIE and many other formerly independent organisations under the control of a single central board largely losing access to all that expertise and interest
SNP in control freak centralisation of power shocker!
And all this to further degrade a mountain environment so lazy people can get up a hill.
Must be looking at Snowdon and wanting to copy the success there!
Must be looking at Snowdon and wanting to copy the success there!
According to that other thread you can tractors of shit cheaply!
LOLs at Northwind and binners.
Seems a simple choice, accept it'll cost more and will need some Central/Regional upfront & ongoing cash or just close it (also costing money).
Does anyone do the same calculations on the road leading to it? I'd guess no.
We've a real problem in the UK with how we expect certain transport systems to be self-funding and others not.
This is just the latest chapter of bit of a mess.
If they'd built a multi-stage gondola from Glenmore in 2001 it would still be running, be more efficient with uplift, and would have cost a lot less. Only Nevis already had a Gondola, and a USP was more important that the right choice.
Apparently opening tomorrow (Fri 26th).
scotroutes - what sort of shambles is your Calander? Tomorrow is Thur 26th. Fri is 27th.!
Whoops. Thursday then!
I blame retirement. At least my spelling is ok.
For how long? Shall we take bets?
For how long? Shall we take bets?
*goes to look at the wind forecast and freezing levels*
scotroutes - when I become king of the world, the village in the Trossachs, the park in Falkirk and handy reference for dates will all be spelt the same way. I’m open to feedback on which one it should be but multiple variations are just confusing! Until then I’ll continue to play scrabble lucky dip…
Scotroutes obviously got his diary the same place he got his dictionary.
Scotroutes obviously got his diary the same place he got his dictionary.
Or he might be a Dundonian!
Will be great to finally get a shot on the funicular when i'm back up next, remember skiing up there in the mid 90s and being told this would make it a hotspot for all sports, always wondered why they went all in though, cutting down all the old infrastructure which could have been useful over time.
[ outsider asks a question ]
Can we take bikes on it?
cutting down all the old infrastructure which could have been useful over time.
Some of that infrastructure would now be very, very old. Doesn't excuse the shambles of a funicular that cant run after heavy snow mind you
Just tried to book tickets however the website isn’t giving options. Will book once the website is updated. The kids will like it. A wee hurl up for a coffee and a view and hopefully a photo opportunity. What’s not to like.
During the summer you werent allowed to leave the immediate area.
You could walk up and then catch it down but you werent allowed to go up on it and then walk down.
As such I suspect the bike question is redundant.
I'll continue to boycott the train and would encourage others to do the same. Take your money somewhere else, to a ski centre that makes better use of limited resources and looks after its staff much better.
Cairngorm has had many times more public money spent on it than all of the other 4 centres added together. The extended mismanagement by HIE is horrific and has been arrogant in the extreme.
I'm happy to skin up and tour in the Gorms but I'll not be spending money there anytime soon.
The visitor management plan that is a structure overseen by Nature Scotland (previously SNH) forbids anyone from exiting the train to do anything other than specified snow sports.
The fun police, down in Aviemore, check up regularly to ensure that CGM comply and enforce this with potential sanctions against the operating company.
Will be great to finally get a shot on the funicular when i’m back up next
Erm. It won't really, it's just a really badly designed and implemented ski lift
being told this would make it a hotspot for all sports,
Utter ****ing bullshit. The bastards.
always wondered why they went all in though, cutting down all the old infrastructure which could have been useful over time.
Because removing the other infrastructure made the ski area utterly dependent on the train bit of a mess. Having dismantled the other lifts they had no option but to contunue throwing millions of pounds of taxpayers' money at the ever growing financial black hole. Which allowed some of the people at the top to make some serious cash out of their involvements in far too many pies.
What’s not to like.
What highlandman said basically.
Number 3 item on my lottery win list was always to fund a private prosecution of the key vermin behind the cairngorm railway debacle.
During the summer you werent allowed to leave the immediate area.
The visitor management plan that is a structure overseen by Nature Scotland (previously SNH) forbids anyone from exiting the train to do anything other than specified snow sports.
So... it doesn't allow access to the mountain... it's just a trip up and down? Well, that's er... um... ...what?
OK, this is going over very, very old ground but...
The funicular was projected to increase the number of folk accessing the plateau as it would still operate in conditions that the chairs couldn't.
The plateau is a sensitive area for conservation and wildlife.
A condition of the EU subsidy was that access to the plateau would be tightly controlled.
I'm not saying I agree with all of that but there is a logic to it.
FWIW you can certainly take the train up and walk around when it's ski season. After all, the snow protects the terrain.
The fun police, down in Aviemore
I'm not sure to whom this refers
[ outsider is totally confused ]
So... if it's only really for access for winter sports... why is it on rails and not hung from above? I don't understand. The outside ski season access is meaningless if it comes with a "no access outside the ski season" restriction, surely?
So… it doesn’t allow access to the mountain… it’s just a trip up and down? Well, that’s er… um… …what?
It never has properly - although some manage to walk up a roped off area to the summit on some days it seems. It is a very vulnerable and unique (in UK) ecosystem up there.
We had to sign in, then sign out again having walked over the tops one day and mrs_oab was desperate for the loo...
The outside ski season access is meaningless
Ask not what your funicular can do for you, ask rather what you can you do for your funicular.
It provides access to the cafe and tat shop at the top station. Which gives 2 further possibities for relieving [expletive deleted] people of more of their money after paying for the ticket to get up there in the first place.
Eg:
Just tried to book tickets however the website isn’t giving options. Will book once the website is updated. The kids will like it. A wee hurl up for a coffee and a view and hopefully a photo opportunity. What’s not to like.
why is it on rails and not hung from above
Because doing it as a railway is more complex and expensive, and thus the opportunities for financial enhancement/ diversion are greater.
It’s a “fait accompli” so no point getting bent out of shape about it. It’s a tourist attraction and gives the opportunity for folk who normally don’t get up on the mountains a wee outing with a view. I will be taking the kids up. Have done it in the past so know what to expect. Could have been/should have beens are fair enough but won’t change anything.
I don’t understand
Neither do we.
The whole concept is insane - if it's too windy to operate a chair or drag lift, then there aren't many skiers (certainly not in the target market) who'll venture out onto the mountain, funicular or not.
The Cairngorm plateau - as others have said - is a sensitive, beautiful area as long as you don't look at the MASSIVE CONCRETE RAISED TRACK visible from miles away. "But but but ski lifts..." - they're not really visible until you're pretty close up.
"It'll increase visitor numbers" as long as we're not talking about the sort of visitors who'd want to go there to do anything outdoors when there isn't snow on the ground. Not them. Just the sort of people who are bursting to visit a cafe that's higher up than other cafes.
Criminal.
It’s a “fait accompli” so no point getting bent out of shape about it.
I don't know, silence may well be taken as acceptance and nothing is learned.
The reason it's a railway not a chairlift is more or less the same reason mountain bike uplift schemes keep on wanting chairlifts or gondolas instead of minibuses. Buses work great, and are cheaper and easier but they mean you can't serve other user groups like walkers and also you can't generate tons of funding and media interest by doing something more impressive than is actually needed.
Re bike access, there was a spell where you could get the train up and then ride down a specified route with an escort wasn't there? IIRC Finley Strivens was doing the guiding/prison guarding. All tied into the same "we have built a train to take you to a place where we don't really want people to be"
How do they physically stop you from walking down?
I can understand them not wanting 10's of k's of Neds wandering around pissed up on Special Brew but a few hundred beardy mountaineering perverts isn't going to destroy the planet. They'll just schlep up there anyway...
Re bike access, there was a spell where you could get the train up and then ride down a specified route with an escort wasn’t there?
from memory the route was down the (fire) road
How do they physically stop you from walking down?
Guns.
there was a spell where you could get the train up and then ride down a specified route with an escort wasn’t there?
It was tied into hiring their bikes and you came right down the main access track. There was also an extended version that took you down to Glenmore.
How do they physically stop you from walking down?
There are doors at the top station which are closed during the non-skiing season. Folk who walk or cycle up are free to wander as they please, check in and out of the top station too. However, that's a small fraction of the number of folk who would be wandering about if they could just get out after taking the train up. Ever been to Yr Wyddfa when the train rolls in?
There are also ranger-guided walks from the top station in Summer - again with limited numbers and no freedom to wander off.
FWIW I reckon the number of cyclists on the tops has already increased since motor-assistance became available.
The recently-installed conveyor uplift at the bottom will be used to provide access to some (to be built) bike trails in the lower corrie. These are going to be short/family-friendly types.
The Cairngorm plateau – as others have said – is a sensitive, beautiful area as long as you don’t look at the MASSIVE CONCRETE RAISED TRACK visible from miles away. “But but but ski lifts…” – they’re not really visible until you’re pretty close up.
As I've said in previous posts, I don't think it's unreasonable to provide more facilities in Coire Cas. The Cairngorms are large enough that those who don't like it can easily bypass it. Personally, I'd lay a tarmac road to the top station and encourage its use by road cyclists.
The whole thing is a shambles. its the wrong transport option on the wrong mountain organised by the wrong people. Nowadays there would not be given permission to build a ski centre up there as it is such a special environment.
The restrictions on walking from the top of the train was a condition put in to prevent erosion on the plateau and also to stop ill equipped folk wandering off and getting lost IIRC
Its the conflict between conservation and tourism that has led to this ridiculous situation with various groups not wanting to compromise properly leading to this absurd situation
Edit: Also politicians and their absurd liking for big infrastructure projects.
To get back to the original question: I'm betting that in 2024 they discover more issues and we descend into unusable again.
Its the conflict between conservation and tourism that has led to this ridiculous situation
Interesting. I totally agree with this bit.
with various groups not wanting to compromise properly leading to this absurd situation
But completely disagree with this bit. In my view it is precisely because of the compromises that we are in this situation.
The skier lobby wanted to build a train. The anti lobby didn't want them to, largely on environmental grounds. The two sides were at loggerheads.
The train goes through a completely stupid, pointless and expensive tunnel at the top due to a daft compromise between the groups. The tunnel was hideously expensive which contributes to the financial problems. The tunnel was hard to build. The tunnel is a ****ing PITA for skiing as the ****ing thing fills up with snow and takes days to dig out after a storm. As a consequence it is shit as a means of transporting skiers. Massive compromise for skiers. The railway is there and is patently a complete eyesore. Massive compromise complete fail for environmentalists.
As a sop to the envos, they agreed to map out the position of every rock where the tunnel was dug, and replace it in the same place. This cost a fortune and contributed to the huge cost. Result was less money for other Scottish ski infra and closures every now and again when they run out of money. Do the envos benefit from these rocks being put back? I guess so but not a huge amount.
The compromise on summit lockdown... mountain bikers lose, climbers lose, I guess ramblers lose a bit. The local community loses huge income stream of not getting a world class MTB facility. See problems with income, debt and cash diversion above. The Envos do gain a bit from this but in my view the damage to the area is miniscule compared to the damage caused by building the damn thing, and the journeys people make.
Etc etc.
They made loads of stupid compromises like the above, which actually don't really benefit anyone significantly ( except Aonach Mor 🙂 )
They still have some ghastly buttugly concrete monstrosity scarring the landscape. It sucks in nearly all the Scotland ski budget just to limp along. It doesn't work for days after it dumps and various activity and revenue streams that could offset its shitness in some form are all banned.
They should have either:
* Not built it at all. Rebuilt the White Lady chair at a fraction of the cost. Kept the Ciste Chair and the upper Fiachail ridge Poma and the other lifts. Skiers would have been happy as they would have had much more uplift capacity. MTBers would have been happy as they'd have been able to take bikes to the top. Envos would habe been happy, no concrete elephant.
OR
* Build the ****ing thing properly so it could be used by all. It would have cost loads less money. Bikers, climbers and touroids would benefit. Other ski areas would benefit. The planet* would benefit because less Avies would drive to Nevis Range for their DH fix and less people would drive to the alps for their lift assist mtb fix. OK, there would defo be more erosion on the plateau, but TBH would the Envos be any better off than they are now...?
* appreciate this bit of my argument is pretty weak 🙂
Basically what I was saying - it was the wrong compromises I agree. Not helped by politicians love of big infrastucture projects.
So its ended up with this huge white elephant. The whole " you cannot get out at the top" thing is utter nonsense - surely there was a better compromise to be had on this. NOt having a summer usage ie for MTBers is utterly daft. too much dogmatic digging of heels in from both sides. to me -( but I didn't look at all the detail) bringing the top station down the mountain a bit would have been sensible along with removing the road up and having the bottom station much lower. That removes 90%of the issues with unfettered access to the top and makes MTB uplift much better as you actually have more height gain between the top and bottom stations
Whatever tho - its was clearly never going to be satisfactory as is. Both sides needed some more broader give and take. Instead of "this is what we want - how do we buy off the other side." it should have been " these are our aims - how can we make this work for both sides"
Co operative and collaborative planning not adversorial
Cairngorm Mountain needs to be allowed to die. It's clearly not any sort of viable business and that's only going to get worse.
bringing the top station down the mountain a bit would have been sensible along with removing the road up and having the bottom station much lower.
The top station needs to be where it is to give access to the Ptarmigan bowl. This is the area most likely to be guaranteed snow and is also the most popular with the majority of skiers. For the non-skiers this is also the point at which the views open up - back to the point about building infrastructure for Summer use too.
The bottom station can't be lower because there would be a lack of snow and the lower land is all owned by FCS.
It's true that modern chairlift systems are much more capable of operating at higher wind speeds but that wasn't really the case when the funicular was originally built.
As far as I have been able to determine there is nothing unique about Course Cas, hence my absolute willingness to sacrifice it 😁 The environmentalist lobby won their battle against the Lurchers extension and should have been happy with that. Unfortunately they are joined by some of the more elitist of the outdoor "community" who now want to remove all infrastructure past Glenmore, including the current road, so that folk get to experience the long walk in.
As for the current state of the funicular, I'm happy to let a few weeks of beta testing to take place before I place my trust in it.
Cairngorm Mountain needs to be allowed to die.
But but but.... that would be admitting that they ****ed up massively. That cannot be allowed to happen.
I'm sure a couple of elastoplast will hold the concrete plinths together for a few more months.
Fair enough Scotroutes.
As far as I have been able to determine there is nothing unique about Course Cas, hence my absolute willingness to sacrifice it 😁 The environmentalist lobby won their battle against the Lurchers extension and should have been happy with that.
This sort of thing should be a key point. NO development in one area - the pay off is much greater development in another. Rather thanpiecemeal and not fit for purpose
As above - permission for the ski centre on that mountain would not be given now - but we are where we are, so need to make the best of it. Its utterly daft to think of removing all the infrastructure now. Trying to be all things to all folk means no one is happy and nowt works properly. A "you get 100% in this area you get 0% in this area" ( land area or policy area) works. To do 50% in each area makes a mess.
I cannot believe the conflicting interests are really irreconcilable apart from perhaps ultras on each side
Unfortunately they are joined by some of the more elitist of the outdoor “community” who now want to remove all infrastructure past Glenmore, including the current road, so that folk get to experience the long walk in.
Really? *shakes head*
The balance here of course is that Cairngorm area /mountain / call it what you will, should be a strong tourist draw and all the benefits of employment and income which that brings.
Yes there are downsides, particularly environmentally, but the local community benefits need to be balanced in my view.
Aside from if or how the railway was born and ongoing issues, the need for a successful business up there is clear - not the current shambolic line up of oddness who currently absorb huge sums of money and seem to deliver less than many would hope...
Found some figures I was looking for earlier...
At just 5.98 Km2 the Cairngorm Ski Area occupies just 0.13% of the Cairngorms National Park Area. Scottish Natural Heritage classify 1572 Km2 of land in the National Park as Wild Land and 15197Km2 of Scotland as a whole.
Having a mooch at the Scotland ski resorts, I also looked at Cairngorm Mountain.
.
.
.
Ok. Well, I found it funny. (Coire na Ciste, etc.)
What I noticed was that the railway, which was fixed for £ManyGazzillion is now busted again. "Snagging", apparently. Closed August, no reopen date available.
I'm muse if Balfour Beatty work on any important stuff like dams, bridges, nuclear reactors, etc.
Balfour Beatty are in charge of the M25/A3 junction10 "upgrade" which has included new and upgraded bridges. It has been a complete shambles with bridleways and footpaths closed and rerouted without any consultation. I will bet by the end we find out the cost has rocketed over original budget. They even wanted to build a roundabout and access road for a house building planning application that has already been turned down.
We went in this earlier this year, I had no idea it had just reopened! It was great, sorry to hear it's closed again
I’m muse if Balfour Beatty work on any important stuff like dams, bridges, nuclear reactors, etc.
As far as nuclear goes they (Balfour Kilpatrick) were one of the main contractors for TNPG to build Hunterston B in the 60s/70s. I wasn't aware Balfour Beatty were still a thing as their side has been though several names in the last decade (BB>Workplace Solutions>Engie>Equans)
To get back to the original question: I’m betting that in 2024 they discover more issues and we descend into unusable again.
Well, it looks as though you might have been right....or at the very least the 'fix' is an unestimatable time away.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3geee0e9kxo
Good work all around I'd say.
"The project team also had to contend with severe weather conditions and below-freezing temperatures on the mountain."
Who'd a thunk it! Actually one of the lamest winters for a good while.
Ideally the whole thing wants shutting and the road ending at Lock Morlich. Perfect in so many ways. The walkers gain as the hills are more natural. Same for the cyclists. The skiers won't lose much as the skiing is dying. A few won't be able to see the view but so what? I cannot abide the idea that people come to an area for some natural beauty then screw it by slapping up something man made.
Most folk in Scotland learn skiing at Aviemore, i did 30 years ago, plus you'd be killing a large chunk of Aviemore town and surroundings.
Clusterboorach
Has it now been closed longer than its been open? Clearly the wrong design / solution for that hill
The walkers gain as the hills are more natural
The overwhelming majority of walkers drive up to the Cas car park.
Same for the cyclists
Most of the MTB-ers also drive up to the Cas car park to set off and the roadies cycle up the tarmac road, so both benefit from the existing infrastructure.
Like I said above the whole ski development area takes up a tiny part of the National Park and the Cairngorm Mountains. Anyone who doesn't want to see it has a huge area of land to choose from without it interfering. In fact, you need only walk 5 minutes from the base station and it's already out of sight.
Most folk in Scotland learn skiing at Aviemore
I'm not sure that's still true.
you’d be killing a large chunk of Aviemore town and surroundings.
Meh. Aviemore and area hasn't got any less busy since the funicular shut. I think most folk know that skiing isn't in any way guaranteed and plan their holidays/leisure time accordingly.
Cairngorm have managed to destroy their skier customer base. It used to be that 4 out of every 10 skier says in Scotland we're at Cairngorm. Now it is less than 1 in 10.