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The condition of the UK's highest railway was "disappointing for its age", according to a newly-released engineers report.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-50508800
Interesting choice of language.
is the winterhighland forum down???
Is there somewhere you can voice your disapproval of the potential repair of the railway?
As it looks like this is the route they are wanting to take, from reading the BBC link!
Meanwhile, it has also announced it was making preparations for public consultation on a new masterplan for the Cairngorm Mountain resort.
Which, presumably, will involve tearing up many of the original planning conditions placed on it to protect the environment around the site.
Which, presumably, will involve tearing up many of the original planning conditions placed on it to protect the environment around the site.
One can only hope.
Is there somewhere you can voice your disapproval of the potential repair of the railway?
As it looks like this is the route they are wanting to take, from reading the BBC link
Sure. As a resident of the area you can join the Aviemore and Glenmore Community Trust who will represent the views of the community. The AGM is on Thursday, so maybe not too late to get onto the committee.
!
Sorry scotroutes, based in Bathgate!
To me this is a really difficult conundrum and the interests of locals and of those who want to protect this area clash badly
I have no doubt that if there was to be a new ski resort in scotland and cairngorm had not been previously developed it would not be allowed to be developed now - but we are where we are. I would much rather the funicular had never been built or that the alternative plan had been built ( remove the access road, funicular goes from lower and stops lower)
The Cairngorm ski resort brings a lot of money to the area - not just directly but indirectly.
So - what do we do now? Try to lesson the environmental impact of the ski area whilst trying to balance its need to stay open for the local economy? With all that in mind I will see what the new plan is. see how well it balances the conflicting interests and above all see if the future for Cairngorm is sustainable in all its meanings.
Edit - the highlands needs employment and a use for the land otherwise it just becomes a park for tourists.
Is there somewhere you can voice your disapproval of the potential repair of the railway?
It is owned by HIE, so up to the Scottish government to decide whether to pay for it. Let your local MSPs know what you think.
Giant Scum - on what basis do you object?
Edit – the highlands needs employment and a use for the land otherwise it just becomes a park for tourists.
You say that like those things are mutually exclusive.
They can be and often are. Look at the protests to any development. This is one example of this. From an ecological point of view the funicular is a "wrong" as is the whole ski area on Cairngorm. Its debate thats been going on for decades. But close the ski resort and damage Aviemore leading to a loss of jobs in an area that needs those jobs.
Cairngorm is a unique little bit of ecosystem. The ski area and the funicular damage this.
Which has a higher priority? the fragile and internationally important ecosystem or the needs of the local community?
I think there has to be found some solution that can balance the two. I don't agree with Scotroutes about the planning restrictions needing to go but I do accept its a valid argument and that the arbitrary and sometimes stupid nature of them leads to ridiculous situations. This is why I would have prefered the funicular to not go as high on the mountain. But that ship has sailed - we are where we are.
The ski area must remain now - there is no way back much as I and others might wish it. Indeed there is a strong argument for using the funicular to increase and improve access. the organisers of the ski area must look at the money raised in summer from the Fort William gondola from mountainbikers and wish that were them.
So to protect the plateau is a "code of conduct" and education the key? allow more development in the lower slopes and in some areas and trade that off against increased protection for other areas?
Lets just hope that out of all this comes a sustainable and sensible solution that everyone can be equally happy or unhappy with
Cairngorm is a unique little bit of ecosystem. The ski area and the funicular damage this.
AFAIK there is nothing unique about Coire Cas. If you want, you can go back over this thread and dig out the figures regarding just how much of the CNP and what %age of the Cairngorms Massif Coire Cas makes up.
Folk go all misty eyed about the heyday of Scottish skiing and how it'll never return to the pre-Freddy Laker days. We now know how well that's working out for the environment.
Its a part of a fragile and unique ecosystem scotroutes. A significant part? Thats the area for debate. To some its only a small bit and not the most important bit so to develop it further is of little loss. To others its the thin end of the wedge to develop it further and any loss of this habitat is something to be fought
I'll sit in the middle and hope for a pragmatic and reasonable solution that balances the various differing attitudes
I do agree with you that there is a stench of Nimbyism about this debate. There is no pint in harking back to what it was like predevelopment of the ski area - we are starting from now.
Personally? Rebuild the funicular and and use measures to mitigate risks to the habitat. Lets get a plan that can be used for a long time and that is a compromise everyone could live with. Find a way to use it in summer for mountainbiking for the income that would bring without causing more damage to the ecosystem or that has a tradeoff in other ways
Scotroutes - the ecosytem I am referring to is only a small part of the park - its the high areas with the arctic / alpine moorland habitat on which the ski area does intrude a little. Home to endangered plant and animal species
When does the new red route from Summit to Loch go in?
I'm digging it on Sunday
tj I can only see it costing a lot more than the quoted £10m to fix it!
Only for it to fail again 5 years down the line.
Get rid of it and invest in an alternative uplift, Aonoch Mor style gondola would be good from the Hayfield.
Ta Giant.
I object to the premise that £10m to fix it is better than £13m to remove it, on the basis that it will have to be removed at some point anyway, so you can't actually offset one cost against the other!
Of course, one of the reasons it was so expensive to build, and will be to repair and remove, is that there are restrictions on the use of vehicles in the ski area. That necessitated an overhead gantry for lugging materials up and down the hill (and the need to photograph/geolocate every boulder so it could be replaced exactly where it was after construction). They should just put a big tarmac/concrete roadway up to the Ptarmigan. It would probably cause less erosion in the long run - AND you could take road bikes up 🙂
Got to laugh at the painstaking trouble gone to about the pros and cons one railway up one peak in the Cairngorms while meantime bulldozing tracks up scores or hundreds of other hills and pouring thousands of tons of concrete to erect windfarms is no problem.
The ski slopes are an eyesore anyway so repairing the existing infrastructure is probably best. I'd relax the restrictions as well and let climbers and walkers use it all year round. The vast majority of them use a handful of paths and damage to wildlife or plantlife is minimal. As seen in Glen Feshie most environmental damage in the Highlands is from overgrazing not walkers and removing deer and sheep is the solution
It's an utter joke. Get rid of the silly train, even when it was running it was a pita to use, and put a gondola in from the Hayfield.
HIE should be put through the wringer for this mess, how they've got away with throwing away good money after bad should be the 8th wonder of the world...
Got to laugh at the painstaking trouble gone to about the pros and cons one railway up one peak in the Cairngorms while meantime bulldozing tracks up scores or hundreds of other hills and pouring thousands of tons of concrete to erect windfarms is no problem.
Not to mention the thousands of miles of stalking roads so that the drunken oafs can go firing their cock extensions all over the shop.
NOne of those other things you mention are in such a special area tho -thats the issue. The cairngorm plateau is a unique internationally important ecosystem.
Thats not to say turn it into some sort of shortbread tin park - but its something to be considered.
Lots of well balanced discussion here.
I’d like to see a gondola from The Hayfield, restrictions removed and MTB trails developed down to Glenmore.
The Cairngorms plateau is big enough to stand this relatively small development and the economic value to Aviemore is needed. SNH are in a different position than they were in the late 1990s and with Forest & Land Scotland owning more land above Rothiemurchus the logistics should be easier.
Meh.
Who knows how many endangered fauna has been burnt over the years to get the Heather going.
How sensible is ski development/refurbishment in a climate which is changing?
Scotland needs to think about tourism and how to invest in it in a sustainable way; the glaciers in the Alps should be a bit of a clue as to the future of Scottish skiing.
No beer - none of the rare species that live on the cairngorm plateau. No heather in that habitat. Anyway two wrongs do not make a right.
NOne of those other things you mention are in such a special area tho -thats the issue
I'm not so sure.
This is a tiny piece of (very pubic/on show) hill, and there are a lot of just as special places elsewhere. I'm disappointed we have such focus on this, perhaps at the expense of ignoring other issues in equally as valuable places?
All that said, Scotland's a big place and I can't say I've an understanding of every last glen.
As a separate issue I'm deeply unimpressed at the whole mismanagement of the whole Cairngorm ski area project. I'm hopeful that a more local interest might manage to find a more sustained use, income and employment from the hill. See Comrie Croft.
Whatever TJ, I'm not arguing with you, carry on.
How many personal transportation drones or jetpacks could you buy for £10M?
Matt - read up on the cairngorm plateau. Its a very rare habitat that exists nowhere else in the UK and only is matched way further north in Europe. Its also particularly fragile
Of course there are other special areas in Scotland and the UK worthy of protection and please note I am not saying close the ski area at all - what I am saying given the significance of the area we need to be extra careful
The significance of the ecosystem and its fragility needs to be balanced against the interests of the people in the area.
You're right tj. Care is needed.
I'm concerned that the the time, money and focus on the ski area of the Cairngorms means damage and lack of care elsewhere is unchallenged.
I'm also concerned that a rural economy rests on employment, and one way or another the natural resources of the area could (I think should) be used in a way that benefits all. Not a few from some oddball company.
To add, this total clusterf**** has drained national and local finances.
Good points - and some of the conditions attached to Cairngorm are frankly ludicrous. By the time yo get a few hundred feet below the top of the funicular its no different to any other bit of the cairngorms
I'll say one thing about this debate. I have both learned things and changed my views on this particular topic from threads on here
Apparently, 3.4m folk have been to the SAC at Cairngorm since the funicular was built. The overwhelming majority of those would have been on foot. No other SAC or SPA in Scotland is subject to the same access restrictions for conservation purposes.
Lets get this into perspective. There isn't a ski lift (incl the choo choo) within 200m vertical metres of the sacred plateau. All the lift served skiing at "Cairngorm" takes place in Coire Cas and Coire na Ciste. And of course the skiers are only using this when there's snow on the ground.
As anyone who has ever spent time up there will know, the plateau is criss - crossed with damaging paths caused by hill walkers and, dare I say it, more recently Mountain Bikers.
Lift served skiing in Scotland occupies a tiny fraction of 1% of the land mass in the Highlands yet successive Governments have permitted the wanton destruction of our hills and glens by estate roads and tracks apparently necessary for "farming purposes." Basically to access 100's of thousands of acres of even more damaging and intensely and artificially managed grouse moors. The so called economic benefit from that little lot is a complete fallacy in my view.
I'd remove the train and replace it with a Gondola and chairlift system. This was an ill conceived and badly built HIE vanity project. I'd also remove HIE, they aren't fit for purpose and will continue to mismanage "the hill." I'd lay odds they will rip the arse out of whatever they say its going to cost and the public will be funding further £expensive repairs in another 10 or 15 years... plus of course the inevitable decommissioning costs in short order thereafter
/\/\ That and what Matt said are on the money IMO
For background;
https://sitelink.nature.scot/site/8475
https://sitelink.nature.scot/site/8217
Note how neither include the ski area, but both include the area below it (where any suggested gondola iuplift from Glenmore would run).
Yup,on the way to the Aviemore half in October we came over the Cairn o Mount then out the back way to Granton. EVERY moor had a burn ongoing. Time this so called industry was looked at.
Werritty report on grouse moors should be out soon. I think it will provide the solutions or at least I hope so. I think thats why its been so long in preparation to make the recommendations watertight as any action will be strongly opposed by the hunting shooting fishing lobby using hysterical tactics and slurs and smears ( because they have nothing factual they can use to defend the practices)
I'm guessing we won't see the Werrity Report until after the GE as purdah might apply? (Though as it is only relevant to Scotland, Westminster purdah might be ignored).
For background;
https://sitelink.nature.scot/site/8475
https://sitelink.nature.scot/site/8217
Note how neither include the ski area, but both include the area below it (where any suggested gondola iuplift from Glenmore would run).
The SAC and SPA are European designations - they may not be an issue post Brexit. There are a series of SSSIs which have similar coverage though.
Scotroutes - the latest I have heard is " released before xmas" Its well overedue which is causing concern from the conservationists but I think probaly means its being made as robust as possible ( I hope)
Of course the ski area is not designated - its lost much of its ecosystem
If the proposal is for a gondola from glenmore thus allowing the access road to be removed then given that was a proposal pre the railway from the conservation side I would see that as a reasonable tradeoff. Remove motor vehicles from the slopes in exchange for development lower down
A above - it needs to include MTBing as well in any future development to allow for year round income
Depends on why that area is listed as well. Rare bird breeding sites are somewhat different to protection of an area of native trees in their robustness to disturbance
So you are suggesting that we should develop an area currently covered by various environmental classifications and restore an area not currently covered? Sounds good. Can I suggest Bathgate for the latter. I'm sure that, given a bit of time and effort, native flaura and fauna could re-establish itself.
NOt quite Scotroutes. At the time the funicular was being designed IIRC there was a proposal from the conservation side to run the funicular from Glenmore so that the acess road could be removed.
Removing the road ( or just the cars from it) would have a benefit that could be seen as offsetting the evironmental cost of a funicular from lower down - also an mechanical uplift of any sort from Glenmore would make MTBing much more viable
I am NOT advocating removing the ski area - that horse has bolted.
What I am suggesting is a pragmatic tradeoff trying to balance the competing imperatives.
Anyway all those new estates north of aviemore surely should be first to go. good habitat for wolves and bears there. Bathgate habitat would only be suitable for herring gulls and gray sqirrels
Hey leave Bathgate out of this!
We have an SSI locally I think. They were going to develop the land to the North of the old NEC, now Tesco distribution, site. Turns out there are/were some rare newts breeding there and development was halted!
Turns out there are/were some rare newts breeding there and development was halted!
Is 'newts' a new phrase for local youth in West Lothian?
Looks like repairs have been approved.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-52774346
Planning has been approved, but...
the final decision on whether to proceed with these works will depend on the outcomes of a detailed options appraisal and business case for Cairngorm Mountain.
IIRC if it doesn't run by September 2021 it needs to be removed. Was that not one of the original planning stipulations, that if it doesn't run for 36 months it needs to be removed?
HIE have basically been given the all clear by Audit Scotland so I wouldn't expect any change of direction.
So if I read it correctly (and remember previous figures) cost of repairs are now more than cost of removal!
That is how I read it.
scotroutes - where is the local community involvement up to?
How much for a Gondola from the hayfield? 🤔
So if I read it correctly (and remember previous figures) cost of repairs are now more than cost of removal!
As I've already pointed out on this thread, the cost of removal is irrelevant to the cost case for the repairs as it'll have to be removed at some point anyway.
scotroutes – where is the local community involvement up to?
It's up to nowhere. Despite doing everything to placate HIE the Community Trust have got nowhere with them.
How much for a Gondola from the hayfield
The Hayfield and most of the route up belongs to FLS, not HIE.
[s]Unbelievable.[/s]
Normal HIE balls-up and a waste or £20m. Aviemore and area was busier than ever this summer, despite no funicular and it's not even the best way of uplifting skiiers. They've not even published their "master plan" for the area yet.
More than £4m of the new investment is to be used for improvements at the ski centre, including upgrades of paths and car parks and the electrification of "cannons" used to distribute artificially-made snow.
Sounds more like maintenance than improvement
I wonder if they will release funding quickly enough to get some of the upgrades (thinking snow cannons) ready for this winter season?
With European ski season looking out of bounds for UK folk, the Scottish ski resorts could be in for a bumper season if they can get snow on the ground!
There's actually real snow on the ground at the moment!
Well at least it points to action of sorts.
This should be investigated as a criminal case the way they've wasted money on that flippin' white purple elephant. And the cure? Throw more money at it. It really does boil my wee wee this one.
Such a waste. 16m could transform the infrastructure on that mountain, rather than throwing more good after bad on that train.
This should be investigated as a criminal case the way they’ve wasted money on that flippin’ white purple elephant. And the cure? Throw more money at it. It really does boil my wee wee this one.
It's shocking isn't it. One of the things I'd love to do if I won the lottery is to pursue a private prosecution against whoever was responsible for that shitfest.
What I do not get is funiculars are proven tech used all over the world. No reason why it should have been such a useless mess up. Not spending enough in the first place? wrong design?
Again they talk about a year round attraction but no talk of opening up mtb tracks which would generate ££££
This should be investigated as a criminal case the way they’ve wasted money on that flippin’ white purple elephant. And the cure? Throw more money at it. It really does boil my wee wee this one.
Meanwhile we can't persuade a couple of million from Scottish government to protect outdoor centres for the future - introducing thousands of children to nature, adventure and Scotland as a 'place' in a positive and sustained way. Not as a tourist tat shopping experience with a view.
Ridiculous.
Repairs due to start this week
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-54792988
My money is on the coldest most precipitous winter in years.
And Cairngorm have withdrawn from the reciprocal discount scheme where season-pass holders at one of the 5 ski areas are given a 30% discount off a day ticket purchased at any of the other 4 areas.
It seems at along with not wanting their own customers, the don't want anyone else's either, not even for the day...
Meet the new masterplan, more of the same!
For instance, some people hold strong views both for and against changes to visitor management at the plateau and on the potential for mountain biking within the estate.
“Any future plans that might be brought forward on these subjects would need to be thought through very carefully and, of course, be subject to the regulatory planning process.
Once again the lack of plans for Coire na Ciste – a popular area with intermediate and advanced skiers and snowboarders - is conspicious by its absence.
Action:
HIE/CMSL
• Work with the operating company and
other stakeholders to develop strategies
to diversity activities and attract visitors
throughout the year.
• Review options for future ownership and
operating models.
There's an awful lot of not very much in the strategy document 🙁
"We need a plan, who is going to write it"
"go on then, I'll do it"
some months later......
"How did you get on with the plan"
"it's done"
"and?"
"my plan is........someone needs to write a plan"
Groundhog Day
I think it is time to write to some MSP's over this one...
Look at the stuff on Parkswatch. The mismanagement and seemingly wilful incompetence is endemic at all levels, all stages and all teams involved. This goes back a long time and the blinkers (with added delusion filters for the parts they could see) have been handed down to the next "Management" teams over the last 30 years.
Anyone in the hierarchy who claims they didn't know is just exposing their own staggering lack of oversight and failure to adequately discharge their responsibilities. A National 5 Travel and Tourism class could have done a better job.
I skied on the last day the Mountain was open before construction started - or was scheduled to start, but couldn't as there was too much snow, but it closed anyway whilst they sat and watched the snow slowly melt, season-pass holders and day-trippers unable to access the snow to ski on. I was pissed off then and time hasn't tempered it.
It's an absolute joke, it really is.
£26m fail: Scot gov agency sues creators of shut Cairngorm railway for £14.5m
Headline in the Herald. article is behind a paywall bar this
" A LEADING Scottish Government economic development agency is suing the constructors and designers of the UK's highest railway which closed three years ago due to structural problems for £14.5m.
The Highland and Islands Enterprise action against the company that owns Morrisons Construction has come as it has emerged that ministers had to refund part of an EU grant for the original Cairngorm funicular because of discrepancies in the way it tendered for the work as costs spiralled from £14.8m to £26.75m. "