You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Has this been done yet? I’ve been away most of October
Gonna be a bit of a bugger if they can’t get uplift into the Ptarmigan bowl from the start of the season 😬
The whole back story is deeply concerning and worrying.
I'm sure scotroutes and other locals will be along in a moment to tell us more.
Meh. Not much to say. It's a mess, a tragedy. One local business has already quit as a result. Lots of folk laid off or not being taken on for the winter season that they depend on. Folk on zero hours contracts getting, basically, zero hours. The new Tiso just opened and they must have a twitchy arse already. The knock-on effect will be felt in the accommodation providers, cafes and pubs. There's a local community group been looking to take over management of the hill from Natural Retreats, though I don't know if their business acumen matches their enthusiasm.
Not good for the town for sure - I’ve got friends who’ve bought season passes too. Might just be the tipping point for Natural Retreats? And I agree with scepticism around the business acumen of the community group. Something needs to change though.
It’s not a knock the community really does not need.
About the only positive might be if the ownership changes to something competent. Although I do worry about what agreements are in place between council and NR and how much damage is inflicted in the process of a change of owner.
how much damage is inflicted in the process of a change of owner.
This has always been a concern. However, it's possible that this could turn out to be exactly the right time if there's a lot of pain to be suffered anyway.
2 season passes in our house. I'll be contacting CML/NR and then my credit card provider to see what can be done about refunds.
If they’d left the Ciste chairlift in ....
A sorry tale whatever the real background is. Train has been superb esp for getting beginners up into the bowl - will create merry hell for access for beginners and/or mean they need a snow factory to churn out snow non stop to bash into access ways. Nightmare for the community irrespective of the ownership issues. Whoever take this on needs kahunas to do so.
Went up back in August. Seemed expensive and they didn't let you get out of the building at the top due to "safety reasons". However you could walk up on your own and that was fine. Basically seemed expensive for what it was.
Much prefer the cable cars at Fort William and you're allowed out at the top 😀
Excuse my ignorance if it was in the article, but what exactly is the problem with it? Is it a particular structural concern?
Some structural issues with the track bed / foundations. The investigation is ongoing.
and they didn’t let you get out of the building at the top due to “safety reasons”
I think they don't (officially) let you out due to legal reasons. It's not a funicular to get you up the mountain, but a novel transportation device between 2 parts of a single retail establishment, or "something like that". One of the locals might be able to confirm the exact status.
They did let us in via the firedoor, and had to sign in. And they do sell 1 way down tickets in the shop. Although trying to explain to some Germans that it's not like every single uplift in the Alps, was a bit strange. They thought it was more stupid than me.
Was there in summer (june? July? whenever it was really hot), and it was shut all week, which we assumed was for major maintenance.
Thanks oldtennisshoes
I thought the deal was they are only allowed to let a certain number of people out on top a day to protect the delicate eco system. You can buy tickets to get you outside at the top.
But Scottish right to roam means you are allowed to roam up there on your own!
Planning restrictions prevent most access out of the top station except for snow sports due to the alleged potential damage to the ecology of the plateau.
i wouldn’t be surprised to see that change in the near future.
Issue is with the concrete piers the track sits on being all out of whack and suffering structural issues. Not a simple fix.
On being "let out".
It was obvious that building a railway to the top station would result in an increase in the number of folk getting there. The issue then was that the additional footfall would cause additional erosion/litter etc. as the train operates in conditions the previous chairlift couldn't cope with and is also easier for the elderly, young and disabled. Obviously, this isn't a concern in winter when it's covered in snow. The funding was only obtained on the basis that there would be a closed system. If you walk/ride up then that's fine and you can sign into and out of the building.
CML do led walks during the summer but numbers are tightly controlled.
There was an attempt at bike uplift but it was on rented bikes, you followed a ride leader and it was down the big, wide, steep, loose access track (i.e. no fun).
Nice view from the top though.
Sad times, best if luck to all involved.
I used the funicular when it first opened to go skiing, it got us up to the top but broke down during the afternoon. We had to ski back but there was only enough snow half the way, we had to walk the rest... in ski boots... that was fun... I don't think it was ever the most reliable piece of engineering.
A lot more reliable than the chairlift...
The Scottish mainland and islands are littered with the detritus of failed business ventures. I can't help feeling that this will just become another, except that it will take years to find a way of demolishing it.
Train has been superb
Apart from when it snows of course, and they’ve got to dig out the tracks and the tunnel 🙄
I don’t think it was ever the most reliable piece of engineering.
Nah it’s fine. Just a standard Poma (or whoever) product
The Scottish mainland and islands are littered with the detritus of failed business ventures. I can’t help feeling that this will just become another, except that it will take years to find a way of demolishing it.
yeah, it’s a wasteland populated by roaming hordes of ginger swigging gingers.😁 ‘Sake globalti that is a ridiculous generalisation.
Wrong time of year to discover it and have time to locate and fix the problems! Freezing temps will make laying new concrete difficult to say the least....
Yeah, was rather a strange comment sparks....
How important was this as a business? I always thought of such things as a bit rubbish, based on the Snowdon one. But I guess not.
I always thought of such things as a bit rubbish, based on the Snowdon one.
Well in Snowdon's case it certainly turns the summit into a landfill site most weekends....
H"ow important was this as a business? I always thought of such things as a bit rubbish"
It is the local economy in wintertime.
It attracts swarms of people to the area who spend alot in the local economy.
Yes the winter climbers and a handful of ski tourers come but they are mostly tighter than submarine doors....
I sat on the chair lift for near on an hour in a horrific icy cross wind, I'd take the funicular any day.
Ah.. if it works as a ski uplift then it's pretty different to Snowdon.
Plus the Snowdon one is a ground railway that goes through a few small cuttings that fill with 10ft of snow frequently so it closes for the winter. And the summit of Snowdon isn't a fun place to be in Winter anyway.
We stopped going to Cairngorm because of the queues and the cost. Mostly the queues.
Queues for the lifts.
Queues for tickets.
Queues for the lifts.
Queues for the hire.
Queues for the lifts.
Queues for the funicular.
Queues for the lifts.
Queues for the cafes.
Queues for the lifts.
Other places can have it bad (Glenshee, school holiday) but there is something particular about the seemingly vindictive nature of the queuing at Cairngorm.
Their "core lift" policy seems to be based decimating the uplift on the hill so you have to use the funicular.
Their "pricing" is laughable (as long as your not paying) - when only very few of the remaining lifts are running - full price, to you laddie!
When it's all "open", and not busy, and its not cloud covered, and its not blowin a hoolie, then it is very, very good. That particular intersection of circumstances very rarely seemed to occur.
The thing about the funicular - that it can run in force 17 hurricane winds - misses the obvious - you might be able to get to the Ptarmigan but step outside and BAM! Next thing you know your being blown over to Norway.
The "company" "running" the ski infrastructure wanted to build a dry slop on a place (IIRC) called Windy Ridge FFS. And have it kept snow free using antifreeze.
The other resorts increase and improve uplift and the general "experience" - Glencoe just keeps getting better and better. There is no fundamental reason why Cairngorm is so S@@t1e. it's being dragged down by the HIE and the muppets "running" it.
dunno glenshee has it bad if its forecast a good day
the only time ive not experianced all the above at glenshee is when its forecast a shit day midweek and turned out to be a good day and ive by virtue of being time short ended up there anyway.
Those days are rare but so full of win.
The rest of the time glenshee suffers the same queuing issues as everywhere else .....except the lecht it only ever gets mad queues when its mad windy everywhere bar the lecht else due to its direction.
How important was this as a business?
In the '50s, Aviemore was a small village beside an old railway junction. They built the first uplift in 1961 and it became increasingly popular. A proper resort with cinema, swimming pool, skating rink and an "international class" casino followed in the mid-60s. Then came Freddie Laker, the liberalisation of airlines, some poor winters and, of course, the UKs entry to the EU. Increasing numbers of skiers started to visit the Alps and the rest of Europe. The resort became run down and was eventually demolished.
In an effort to survive, the local businesses diverged more into other tourism areas,often aimed at families - e.g. Landmark Forest Centre, the steam train, reindeer, paddling and, of course, biking.
Much of the old ski infrastructure was phased out when the funicular was built (to be fair, numbers hadn't been what they once were) in particular the uplift in Coire na Ciste was allowed to wither and its remains were only removed recently. Supposedly, this operation cost £270,000. A report (not available at the time) showed it could have been re-instated for around £300,000.
The mountain is owned by Highland and Islands Enterprise, the Scottish Governments development agency, but managed by a company called Natural Retreats who were, supposedly, going to be bringing a lot of investment and management experience. This has been a shit-show from day 1. There is now a local community trust looking to take over ownership of the land and infrastructure with a view to (a) holding Natural Retreats to account and (b) eventually getting rid of NR.
Just to add to scotroutes post: I think that Natural Retreats put a load of staff on zero hour contracts, then announced the funicular was borked. I also read that the other resorts had been reviewed WRD Scotlands "living wage" (whatever that is) but Cairngorm was not.
Apologies if I am wrong about these things, after all it is the interwebs...
Thanks Colin.
It must be very hard to make a stable financial success out of a business like that, being totally at the mercy of the weather.
Can see the appeal of a CIC taking it over, but is the Scottish Gov likely to provide subsidy if it's not a profitable enterprise? Are the wider economic benefits valuable enough to justify that? We're told the French run their lifts at a loss in the summer to bring MTBers in.
The queues at Glenshee can be significant, but there are always multiple ways into the hill from the road and so it’s always quicker to get going. Plus the 3 valleys always provides some shelter from the worst of the weather. Getting the caenlochan lift back in for this season will be great. The catering, equipment hire and beginner facilities are still rubbish though.
The local Community Trust (AGCT) want to build a small hydro scheme in the Ciste. That would power a snow factory in Winter and provide income in Summer. The land already belongs to the Scottish Govt so there wouldn't be any subsidy required for its purchase (unlike, say Assynt or Eigg). The current situation seems to be that any investment in facilities is either funded by HIE or will be a loan from HIE to NR. However, the financial affairs of NR are quite murky and it seems like a lot of income is being offshored. But yeah, it's all very well for the Trust to have great plans, not so sure it's all been thought through well enough.
I have always had a soft spot for Glenshee, in fact I had my first après Ski pint in the Blackwater, and that wasn't yesterday. As Druid says, Aviemore was the place to go in the 70's and 80's. We used to go for the long weekend in February and it was heaving, with great ski conditions. Oh...and the death or glory go cart track...
Aviemore was the place to go in the 70’s and 80’s.
I learnt to ski there in the 80s on a week long SYHA course.
Aviemore was the place to go in the 70’s and 80’s
It was the place to go last week, just back from a fantastic October week up there.
I've always struggled with Aviemore in the winter. I've been snowboarding in Scotland for over 20 years now and never felt an affinity with Cairngorm, partly because Glencoe's a good hour closer to home for me and it's always been where I've naturally wanted to go. Pre-railway days I'd always thought the uplift at Cairngorm was laughably bad, relying on the M1 poma and Ciste t-bar for any kind of decent day always seemed completely at odds with skier numbers and what I've always perceived so much of their target audience to be (generalising obv. but people reluctant to 'rough it').
The funicular just screamed white elephant and I've always suspected there'd be an alarming true picture of the costs involved and who ultimately foots the bill. If the summit plateau is a SSSI then it seems insane to build an expensive permanent access system that has a massive caveat in how it can be used for half the year! The management of the hill has always seemed to have - at best - an offhand attitude to skiers, as alluded to above in comments about ticket prices on marginal days, queue management and so on and NR's emphasis on having nice soup in the cafe and plenty of stuff to buy in the shop doesn't suggest the actual experience of using the lifts (you know, the thing customers are actually paying for) is top of their priority list.
Compare this to Glencoe, where a single-minded, skier-driven approach to the management of the mountain over the past few years, coupled with some creative thinking about what else you can do in a beautiful, remote area is proving that making a success of a Scottish ski resort is not impossible.
Cairngorm should be the jewel in the crown of Scottish snowsports, given the location. It's a tragedy that it isn't.
Why not turn it into Bike Park Scotland? Uplift track already there.
They looked into that once, but found a Capercaillie poo within 53miles of the track so it was canned
but found a Capercaillie poo within 53miles of the track so it was canned
Those Scots will eat anything...
It must be very hard to make a stable financial success out of a business like that, being totally at the mercy of the weather
As I see it, the funicular was almost completely paid for by grants. It runs year round, attracting as many in summer as winter. They *could* be better at getting even more folk to pay to get up there, all year round. Winter is important, but Cairngorm was meant to be much more year round...
Why not turn it into Bike Park Scotland? Uplift track already there.
Mostly because of the access rules regarding planning permission for the funicular, and NR previously stated that they didn't want to set themselves up in competition with Nevis Range. However, there is the prospect of operating something from the mid-way station. That provides uplift and a better area for bike-friendly gradients. I'd expect any initial trails to be "Blue" grade and a long fight against conservationists. Something running from there down to Glenmore could be made into a real attraction though.
Gawd yes, make it so!!!
They *could* be better at getting even more folk to pay to get up there, all year round. Winter is important, but Cairngorm was meant to be much more year round…
I thought part of the problem is that they don't want people wandering around up there as it damages the environment.
IMO the funicular should never have been built. It kind of implied Cairngorm skiing is something that it is not, which encourages more folk to go.
Keep it simple, keep it basic and you will just keep a certain type of winter sports enthusiast returning. Try and get too bling and you encourage more people to start with until they realise in reality its shit.
Everything conspires against Cairngorm skiing these days, the weather, the driving to get there, Aviemore, Europe. I learnt to ski and race in Scotland and can not thank it enough for the skills it gave me, but boy I will never rush back.
I learned to ski on the dry ski slope at Aviemore.
First pair of skis were gifted to me by one of The Trampies (local singers and instructors with Badenoch ski school)
Used to get dropped off at the bottom station with a ticket and some sandwiches by my parents and was left to fend for myself on the mountain from age 12. This would have been early 80's
Loved it up there a whole week of skiing using all the tows and chairlifts.
Fast forward to 2015 after a 30 year gap and it was a whole different experience, only the bowl fully open and we had to pay full price.
I really do hope they get the funicular sorted for the start of the season!
So Brexit will make Aviemore great again!
I really do hope they get the funicular sorted for the start of the season!
That is very, very unlikely. There is talk of additional snow-making to get the tows from the car park operational but that still only leaves the M1 poma for uplift to the Bowl and that is well beyond the capabilities of most of the folk that make it up there normally.
I guess there is the possibility of running the funicular from mid-station to the top but that will depend on the results of the current survey/inspection work.
Mmm the M1 Poma and West Wall Poma (worse) are horrific to use. Even if they get enough snow made for the tracks of the Car Park T-Bar and Day Lodge Poma there will still be an issue with getting back down the hill - walk down in Ski boots anyone?
It's not looking at all good for this season.
the driving to get there
Must be the best road from the south out of all the ski centres in Scotland to get to, I dunno why the A9 gets such bad press, drove it twice last week, and also down to Pitlochry and back from Aviemore to go to the enchanted forest one evening, it's a great road.
They've know about the cracks in the concrete since 2016...
I think it's HIE that need taken to task over the whole bloody shambles.
It's absolutely disgusting that such an amount of public money has been frittered away on a pointless white elephant that most people didn't want in the first place.
Lecht or Glenshee for me 🙂
They’ve know about the cracks in the concrete since 2016…
Well, apparently the 2016 issues were resolved. These are all "new" ones.
Lecht or Glenshee for me
The problem is that they also (kinda) lose out from this. If people aren't going to Cairngorm they're going other places, making the queues in those places even worse
Ski patrol mate told me Glenshee needs a surprisingly low number of busy days to break even, I am pretty certain it was 20 something.
WRT Glenshee, I understood 3 full carparks per season enabled them to break even. It is certainly below 20.
Cairngorm is struggling. The problem with the Funicular seems to be an apparent total lack of expansion joints along it's entire length - nearly 2km of precast reinforced concrete for the elevated track bed - and the subsequent issues resultant in the numerous support towers.
While it is tempting to blame the current operator - who is sub-optimal at best - the issue long predates them and the original design and construction engineers need to be having a long hard look at themselves. The current operator appears to have known about these issues for a while, and does not appear to have a suitable plan as to how to ameliorate them. If part of the response is "We're having an Xmas Market!", then you know you're short of the mark.
I have 4 season passes in the family, 2 of which are for small children (5&7) who will struggle to ride the Poma uplift, and will not be able to walk to the snowline if the snow is below the carpark. For those who are not familiar with Caringorm, the snow sure beginner areas for learning to ski are in a (relatively sheltered) bowl at the top of the mountain. In addition it appears that the cafe/toilets on the upper mountain will not be operational this winter. The facilities at mid-mountain been allowed to fall derelict, so the only opportunity for toilets/food is now at the carpark level. Not convenient, especially if you cannot ski back to this level.
I emailed Cairngorm on 11/10/18
Dear Sir/Madam
I am writing to seek reassurances regarding the operation of the snowsports area this coming winter season. I have read a number of press reports, including your press releases, regarding the current physical state of the Funicular infrastructure, and the corresponding impact on uplift capacity.
In May we renewed our Season Passes for our family - 2 adults and a 5yo and a 7yo. I am concerned that a further reduction in uplift capacity at Cairngorm may make the visitor experience so poor that I have, in effect, purchased an un-usable product.
If the Funicular is out of commission, my youngest child will not be able to access the Ptarmigan Bowl where he is likely to do the lion's share of his skiing. We purchased Season Passes for Cairngorm specifically because of the Funicular access to a reliably snow-sure beginner area with a café/shelter nearby.
I am concerned that withdrawal of the Funicular uplift will have a dramatic effect on uplift capacity/visitor experience at Cairngorm Mountain.
I appreciate that safety should always be the number one priority, but I would also like the following questions answered please;
- Can you give a scheduled completion date for any remedial works planned?
- Is Cairngorm Mountain currently planning to use the Funicular this winter season at all?
- I note from your press release dated 11/10/18 that you state:
“A key component of the plan will be the potential to utilise snow making equipment at lower levels, making the mountainside accessible for beginners, and reducing congestion in other high traffic areas.”
– How many Snow Factories do you anticipate installing to guarantee uplift on the Lower Slopes?
- If uplift remains restricted come the commencement of the snowsports season, will overall ticket sales be restricted to compensate for lack of uplift capacity? – I note that further Season Ticket sales have already been suspended.
- If the Funicular cannot operate, will the Ptarmigan building (cafe/toilets) remain operational?
- If Season Ticket holders feel that the service that they have purchased is not being provided, will Cairngorm Mountain refund the cost of the tickets.
Regards,
To date I have no reply. I wonder how long I should wait...
Obtained under FOI:
Makes grim reading from a remedial point of view. Assuming the situation is economically recoverable this will cost many millions and the train will be out of action until Season 2020 at least.
And they cut out the Ciste infrastructure after this was produced. The HIE Board needs to be handed their jotters over the entire fiasco
Just bring back Santa Claus Land
Save the Ciste reporting there’ll be no Snow School this year.
Thatll be a major hit for local jobs. Wonder if they’ve had much in the way of bookings ?
And the snow has started to arrive.
From Corrie na ciste this morning
Apologies for the Instagram link but seems to be the only way to post in here reliably without spending half an hour uploading and finding a link
Yep NR have told ski school and rental staff no jobs for this season. Criminal way to run a business frankly.
Better to tell folk now than have them hanging on though. There is limited space at the Day Lodge for learning and not as much chance of snow as the bowl.
True but more that with no instruction or rental on mountain I’ll be interested to see what and if they actually even bother running lifts. Absolute killer for the area , even when the mountain was open people visited with the hope they could ski. I wonder if they just won’t bother.
OTOH no rental on the mountain means some for the other businesses and though I have no love for NR the roots of this problem lie with HIE. It'll therefore be interesting to see what Govt support there is. A Snow Factory or two wouldn't go amiss.
There's a task force now looking at how the govt/council/local businesses respond. I guess part if that will be highlighting the other attractions of the area.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-46043596
Shut for the winter seems to be the likely outcome now.
Some good news though..
The development agency has given the warning in an announcement that it is reviewing the resort's uplift infrastructure, and is investing £1m in a snowmaking machine and snow cannons to guarantee snow at lower levels to help salvage the latest snowsports season.
Still need to fix the trebauchet pomas though.
Still need to fix the trebauchet pomas though.
You've obviously never used the Harrier at the Lecht then, great fun, especially on a board! 😆
Anyone else seen this yet?
Sorry can't find a non Facebook link....
Looks pretty exciting TBH...
Erm - are not all those mountain bike trails running right past the top station of the funicular, a place we are told is so environmentally delicate you are not even allowed to step outside??
Rachel
Looks like repeating some of the same mistakes.
Windy Ridge isn't a good location for MTB and the roller coaster (the hint is in the name). Both should be lower down- potentially ending at Glenmore.
Avoids the Ciste (again) despite it having some of the most consistent snow. A high-speed chair in the Ciste would immediately increase uplift and could be installed without impacting on Cas-side developments.
Anyroadup- they need to ditch NR.
AGCT AGM is tonight.
Oops - I meant tomorrow night!
Rachel - there are already tracks down through that area. The erosion concern was mostly about the area above the Ptarmigan and over to Ben Macdui
Hey Rachel! How's it going? I actually did a baseline erosion survey up there, right after I graduated from Stirling with my shiny new Ecology degree, back in 1998. I took the initial measurements that would then be added to annually, and used to assess the impact that the expect increase in footfall from the funicular railway would have on the mountaintop. If I remember correctly, and as I understood it at the time, the measurements we were recording would help to assess the total impact of the railway, which at that time was going to be 'trialled' on the mountain, with it's long term future depending on how much it increased tourism and how this would impact on the mountain environment. Scotroutes is correct when he says the main focus was on Cairngorm's summit and the route over to Ben Macdui. If memory serves, the plateau has an 'alpine tundra' ecosystem that is really quite fragile. So, when the funicular finally got the go ahead, it was only on the provision that folk taking the railway to the Ptarmigan restaurant would have limited access to the summit. You could only get to the summit and then onward, over the plateau by good old fashioned legwork from the bottom of the mountain.
All the stuff that's proposed on that there Facebook thingy is on the side of the mountain that's pretty much been beaten to death anyway and is much lower down than the really fragile higher altitude environment. Quite fancy the roller coaster, but you can keep the zipline thanks!
Avoids the Ciste (again) despite it having some of the most consistent snow. A high-speed chair in the Ciste would immediately increase uplift and could be installed without impacting on Cas-side developments.
Totally agree with this Colin. They really seem to want to make a point of not using the Ciste side when it always has the longest laying snow. Have they literally got some secrets buried in there!?!
Reverting to the Ciste now would be admitting they were wrong. That's never going to happen.