By crikey trains are expensive

Super Off Peak Return is £139, what are you trying to book for £500, the turn up on the day and book first class price?

I used to commute Newcastle to Reading weekly, the train was £159 return, and that was turning up at the station on the day at 7am. Diesel would have cost ~£80, but the train was quicker, I averaged ~3.5 hours of productive work time each way, and the travel time includes a nice stroll/Boris Bike through London, not M1/M25/M4 Purgatory.

I remember an article in a newspaper where a couple drove from Newcastle to London for less than the cost of the train. As you say, it is utterly insane

LNER app very helpful for getting good prices.

I remember an article in a newspaper where a couple drove from Newcastle to London for less than the cost of the train. As you say, it is utterly insane

It is if you ignore the amount of money the government throws into roadbuilding, and the fact you don't have to personally spend thousands of pounds to buy/lease a train, and the maintenance, and the insurance, and that's before you get to the externalities.

Sometimes booking a seat from another station say further North than Harrogate can make the tickets cheaper.
One time I booked a seat to London from Penrith for half the price of the ticket going from Preston. On the same train!

Regularly have to travel from Chester to London and the prices are similarly astronomical. Some days cheaper tickets are available, but I’ve even found being able to book in advance is equally a lottery where they haven’t published whether a train is going to be running or not.
Last week I ended up driving to Bedford and getting the train for the last part of the journey to avoid having to drive in Central London.

Yeah loads of problems with the market trying to maintain a system for public transport - rewards early booking - we just booked 12 weeks ahead and it was only £12.50 for a trip to London on Eastcoast line. But you can only do that if you're very well planned and I know real life isn't like that mostly.

Get some money invested and remove the profit makers.

It's as if there might be another way ...

There is no magic money tree you know - those shareholder profits have to be paid by somebody !!

It’s ridiculous that we have a peak and off peak fare system for rail, yet you can drive at any time of the day and pay nothing for using the motorway.

I occasionally take the train but the recent inflation linked increases now take a return to more than £150, and that’s super off-peak.

Wish they’d reintroduce the flights between Heathrow and Leeds. £60, took less than 40 minutes, and didn’t shut down every weekend.

One time I booked a seat to London from Penrith for half the price of the ticket going from Preston. On the same train!

I wonder if there are Scottish rail subsidies? I used to do this a lot until a guard realised that I’d got on at York and pointed out that it was fare evasion (if you have an Advance ticket).

I’m amazed the government hasn’t offered advice on this already.
Readjust your expectations to post Brexit reality. Just stop buying full size trains. Hornby do a good range of scale model size ones.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63998198

Peak ScotRail fares to be scrapped for six months

Its almost as if there is another way 🙂

Took the Glasgow / Edinburgh fast train the other day.  Cheaper than driving, faster than driving, free wifi, comfy, quiet train but almost full so loads using it.

Super Off Peak Return is £139, what are you trying to book for £500, the turn up on the day and book first class price?

Book 5 minutes ahead on an off peak service is about £75 each way normally but no, not this week.

Nothing crazy in terms of ticket though

according to trainline.com you can get the 1136 to kings cross travelling today for £45.70 one way

I was absolutely shocked when a friend of mine told me how much he paid for two season train tickets from Luton to London. You could buy a new car for the same price!

Peak ScotRail fares to be scrapped for six months

I assume that six months aligns quite nicely with a significant electoral cycle?
I also assume the impact will be the lowest fares will go up significantly and the most expensive down a little too meet at about 85% of the current peak price.

(FWIW I think they've already done the scrapping peak fares on the east coast mainline as a pilot?)

(I've not read the article BTW so this might will be covered there in)

My 35 minute each way trip from MK to London is a staggering £598 a month

Service has improved lately, but I still only get a seat 50% of the time, luckily its a short trip and I always have headphones and a book!

Trains can be very cheap.

I booked 2 x 1st class tickets, the day before travel, from Berlin to Amsterdam, for 175 euro.

I have to buy them through an expense system at work, which is great as it's not my money but Cardiff to London is ALWAYS £500 return with this system. It doesn't matter if I book weeks/months in advance, it's always around the £250 mark each way.

I have my suspicions that people buying tickets through work schemes like mine are the only reason why there are still people on the train.

It is if you ignore the amount of money the government throws into roadbuilding, and the fact you don’t have to personally spend thousands of pounds to buy/lease a train, and the maintenance, and the insurance, and that’s before you get to the externalities.

But this example included buying, insuring and taxing the car!

Return to London for 2 (Doncaster to KGX) last weekend was less the £100 booked in advance though. That;'s less than £25 each way. Easier, quicker and cheaper than driving. Obviously that's no good if you can't get the early bird tickets and you're booking last minute but I would choose train every time to get to London if you know your plans early enough.

Peak ScotRail fares to be scrapped for six months

Try splitticketing.com which can sometimes save a reasonable amount.
Also worth looking at swapping to the ECML and going via Sheffield/Nottingham (East Midlands Rail), that line is often cheaper than LNER.

I agree though, it's insane both the cost of tickets and the hoops you have to jump through to get anything at a reasonable price.

I remember an article in a newspaper where a couple drove from Newcastle to London for less than the cost of the train. As you say, it is utterly insane

Yes, for petrol costs. Add in car depreciation, wear and tear, congestion charge, ULEZ charge, the hard work of driving, insurance, road fund etc, and the costs are not too different if you can get an advance ticket. Yes, turn up and go prices are expensive, but there are usually cheaper alternatives.

I’m not sure where the OP got his prices from, but I've just looked at the Trainline, and its £162.50 single, on the 6.41 and 6.56, and £139.40 on the 7.09., the price is £279.60 second class return. Return at 19.00, and the price is down to £209.70.
If you want first class, then expect to be pumped.

splitticketing.com for on the day bookings....

Trainline also does this to some extent.

Do not buy in the station....🤷‍♂️

No idea how you’re getting those prices. Wed / Thu on those trains around £240 Wed / Thu, loads cheaper on Friday. LNER app.

Expensive, unpleasant and unreliable. Have you considered getting a car?

I’m not sure where the OP got his prices from, but I’ve just looked at the Trainline, and its £162.50 single, on the 6.41 and 6.56, and £139.40 on the 7.09

Direct from lner, as in the (sorry its a bit rubbish) photo.

Oddly, since I started the thread, trains for Thursday are now down to £75 outbound and £105 inbound.

Utterly mad.

My 35 minute each way trip from MK to London is a staggering £598 a month

Service has improved lately, but I still only get a seat 50% of the time

That's pricey but <googles> 53 miles in just over half an hour must surely be one of the quickest commuter runs around. I've got family in Zone 3 who take longer to get to Euston than that!

But this example included buying, insuring and taxing the car!

Sure, if you buy an absolute shed, tax it for a month, cancel the insurance and breakdown cover as soon as you get home, sell the car afterwards, and ignore the amount of government spending on the roads that allowed you to do it.

And then compare it to 2x 1st class train tickets.

Because there's no way you're actually buying a car and driving to London and back for less than 2x ~£140.

Diesel - £70
Congestion charge - £15
Parking - £60 (it's actually cheapest to just park up and pay the PCN in Zone 1)
ULEZ - £12.50
= £157.50 and you've not even bought, insured, taxes, breakdown covered the car yet.

Indeed train prices can be very silly if you are not flexible on time and date, or only book a few weeks in advance.

I also have had issues when it goes wrong, it really goes wrong. I cannot trust Avanti on west coast line to even run the train - I don't even book with them now. LNER on east coast line much better, but when it unravels it really does.

Last LNER - stuck at Edinburgh for 4 hours until I headed home and then drove to London. Last 5 Avanti's I booked - all cancelled...

Local train service - better, but still shoogly and some really crap old trains. Add in (as example) a return to see my son in city centre Glasgow is £18-23. Or the bus is faster, as regular, is £16 and now half the buses are electric - and I can book my bike on.

Oddly, since I started the thread, trains for Thursday are now down to £75 outbound and £105 inbound.

Try the trainline app, ignore the one way prices, when you click through to about the 3rd screen (i.e. after selecting the out/return trains) it'll give you the cheapest options (split tickets, specified trains, returns etc).

Not sure if this is the story (Bristol, not Newcastle): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43745117

A man bought a car, taxed and insured it and drove from London to Bristol - all for less than a return train fare.

Tom Church, 27, made the journey in an £80 Honda Civic. Including tax and petrol he spent £206.81 on the trip.

Obviously not a like for like comparison but it does show how cheap motoring is, partly due to the subsidies. It shouldn't be like this. Would love to use the train more but the car is so much cheaper.

made the journey in an £80 Honda Civic.

Yeah, that was even more of a gamble than the train service

HMRC - who are notoriously stingy - reckon it costs 45p per mile to run a car. It's likely more than that now, but that's the current rate.
So that's how you need to - as an average - compare the per-mile cost. Plus parking and ulez/czone

No idea how you’re getting those prices. Wed / Thu on those trains around £240 Wed / Thu, loads cheaper on Friday. LNER app.

I was told by a colleague this week that more and more folk are working a 4-day in office week - and Friday is the 'work from home day' in London, therefore the number of train users on a Friday afternoon as plummeted...

Currently also affecting pricing are the strikes.

As each union calls a strike it requires a new timetable to be constructed - it's unusual to be able to pull one 'off the shelf' given that each time there's a subtle variation which means any previous version is useless. To do this within the 14-day notice period that the industry is given is a high-pressure situation for the planning teams, as getting them to work together (safely and with coordination between all the services) into the system takes time. If the union then calls the strike off within 48 hours it's too late, the amended timetable has gone through and can't be changed back - even for the 'normal' one. It's a huge amount of work wasted but, contrary to popular belief, the train operators do try to do their best for numerous reasons so always try to do something to run trains when they can.

The cheaper tickets require suitable planning horizons - 12 weeks out is supposed to be when train tickets are released for sale, but with the pressure the planning teams are under, getting the base timetable sorted 16 weeks out, for the checks and balances by Network Rail to be completed by 14 weeks out for release 12 weeks out is simply too much. Hence, cheap tickets are in short supply.

I'm aware all the above is an explanation of the current situation. I'm not trying to defend it - especially in the post-COVID world.

EDIT: What doesn't help is that Trainline (and a few others I think) advertise a service at full open-fare if there are no other fares available, regardless of whether a timetable has been published yet, so people looking to book a service before the trains are released for sale see a massive fare.

EDIT 2: @dangeourbrain - I wouldn't be surprised if the above is what's happened to you this morning:

Oddly, since I started the thread, trains for Thursday are now down to £75 outbound and £105 inbound.

Yeah, that was even more of a gamble than the train service

I imagine if you got pulled over at any point that a car bought for (less than) scrap is going to be whole bingo card of painful fines, points, recovery costs. Starter for 10 I'm guessing 4 bald tyres and it's a Civic so it'll be rusty.

Yes, for petrol costs. Add in car depreciation, wear and tear, congestion charge, ULEZ charge, the hard work of driving, insurance, road fund etc, and the costs are not too different if you can get an advance ticket. Yes, turn up and go prices are expensive, but there are usually cheaper alternatives.

Fuel is £98.96 assuming 40mpg and £1.50 a litre.
Wear and tear on 580 miles shouldn't be that much but yes, is a cost even if it is fairly insignificant.
Congestion charge (£15) and ULEZ (£12.50) work out at £55 in and out IF they even apply.
Parking can be had for £25 per day, assume a long weekend so £75
Insurance gets paid regardless of if you drive it or not.
RFL, say it's £250 a year works out at 68.5 p per day (even a £650 RFL only wors out at £1.78 per day), also paid regardless of if you drive it or not.
Depreciation - depends on the car but that trip won't make much difference if any.

So overall cost is £228.96 plus whatever imaginary figure you want to attach to the unknowns.

Booking with LNER for 26th to 29th of May outbound is £107.80 and return is £82.40 for 2 adults leaving after 1700 which works out at £190.20

Honestly surprised at that. If we went with our daughter it would be even cheaper with a F&F railcard. Of course my figures are made up and in actuality the ULEZ charge most likely won't apply to most petrol cars.

Compare and contrast, however:

I have to make a journey to Gloucester for a course in July (actually it's a 2 week course so I need to get there and back twice if I want to come home at the weekend). To get down I have the choice of just one train, at 08:54 which will take 9h 6m and cost £103.60, the return costs the same, takes 7 hours and gets me in at 00:48 IF nothing goes wrong (otherwise I'm spending the night somewhere). Then I get a day at home before I rinse and repeat. £204.20 return.

Or I can fly to Birmingham in 1h 15 for £50 return plus luggage (£18.98) and then travel to Gloucester by train in 1h 20 for an additional £61.20 return. (£130.18 plus taxis to and from the hotel)

Or I could drive for £103.70 there and back in 6.5 hours each way (no charges at the other end).

HMRC – who are notoriously stingy – reckon it costs 45p per mile to run a car. It’s likely more than that now, but that’s the current rate.

In a previous discussion (on this subject!) I ran the numbers and it came out near that for me. My car is quite old ( depreciation costs are lower) but only gets about 37mpg (fuel costs are higher). So I reckon that for an 'average' car 45ppm is not a ludicrous estimate.

My experience of getting the train to London about every other week for 18 months is that it's vastly cheaper to book in advance. There's a limit to how far you can book in advance, I used to buy them the day they were released.

That said, I've just plumbed some numbers at random into thetrainline. Return Harrogate ➡ London this Friday to Sunday around midday is ~fifty quid each way. A "super off-peak return" is £139.40. If I go far enough into the future I'm seeing tickets for under £25.

We've got a family railcard but just paid about £130 for the 4 of us, York > Kings Cross return on a Saturday in July which I didn't think was too bad. Without the railcard (abut £30 for the year) it was double that.

In comparison, me and a work colleague are flying to Brussels for £80 return in a few weeks.

I used to do this a lot until a guard realised that I’d got on at York and pointed out that it was fare evasion

Well, that's just silly. You have a valid ticket covering the trip. Just because you have a ticket doesn't make travel mandatory.

Govt spending per passenger is 5 times higher for rail than road. Perhaps rail with it's very limited choice of routes is just an expensive but poor choice for most journeys apart from a few city centre to city centre routes?

https://iea.org.uk/blog/rail-versus-road

Meanwhile in Germany...

£45 for an all you can eat public transport pass...

...for a month!

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/04/04/deutschlandticket-germany-launches-49-per-month-ticket-for-trains-buses-and-trams

The IEA there pointing out that privatised rail companies are badly managed, and offer poor value for the exchequer. Interesting.

This was very funny though:

(2) If the national rail function were carried out by express coaches and lorries on an uncongested network, then the fuel consumption would be reduced by 24%.

😆

Govt spending per passenger is 5 times higher for rail than road. Perhaps rail with it’s very limited choice of routes is just an expensive but poor choice for most journeys apart from a few city centre to city centre routes?

Is that including all the indirect subsidy for cars?  Like enforcing motoring law, like all the ill health and death etc etc etc

Govt spending per passenger is 5 times higher for rail than road. Perhaps rail with it’s very limited choice of routes is just an expensive but poor choice for most journeys apart from a few city centre to city centre routes?

Says the neoliberal hard-right thinktank that put Truss and Kwarteng in government.

Conveniently ignoring that:
1) Roads rely on massive private investment (i.e. a core concept is they expect everyone to be able to afford to buy and run a car). Imagine the outcry, and how good public transport would be, if we spent that extra £4000/person* on it.
2) Unlike trains they're not scalable. You can add train capacity in relatively space efficient ways and take car's off the roads. Whereas gridlock on train strike days just demonstrate quite how inefficient roads are for moving n+1 of cars.

*45p/mile, 9000miles,

Look, I love trains, I use them wherever I can and I wish they were cheap and available. I'd be buying back houses and buildings to re-instate Beeching cut lines if I were in charge. But these comparisons with car journeys made by including the cost of purchasing and insuring etc the car are quite brainless, aren't they? Because you don't buy a car solely to do that trip, most people have them for other reasons. I pay all those things for the convenience of being able to drive to go climb mountains or whatever I want to do, so those costs don't all go against any individual trip, in my accounting and in most people's I'd expect.

Obviously not a like for like comparison but it does show how cheap motoring is, partly due to the subsidies.

It's not exactly a subsidy for motoring, it's more like an investment in transport infrastructure for the benefit of the nation. What we need is (much) more investment for public transport, don't call it a subsidy.

There’s a limit to how far you can book in advance,

Have you tried to book a Manchester to Euston recently? Currently booking in advance means a fortnight, beyond that the tickets don't generally exist.

It’s not exactly a subsidy for motoring, it’s more like an investment in transport infrastructure for the benefit of the nation. What we need is (much) more investment for public transport, don’t call it a subsidy.

You're right, it's not a subsidy, a subsidy would imply be paying for something out of taxation (based on ability to pay) and giving it to everyone (according to need). Spending on car based transport, at 33million cars, that £4000/person makes it equivalent two thirds of the NHS's budget. And it's regressive, you're required by the system to buy into it regardless of income.

Imagine if we said the "NHS is free, you've all paid for it out of your taxes, but to actually access it you have to pay an extra £4k a year to own your own hospital bed".

Currently booking in advance means a fortnight, beyond that the tickets don’t generally exist.

And after that the trains don't.

These threads are always the same. People make helpful suggestions like:
-Split the fare
-Book from another station
-Use this/that booking platform
-Travel on the first Tuesday after a full moon
-Get an open flexi day multi single seat unreserved full un flexi return for part of the journey

My question is why on earth should it be that complicated? How are is a fair system when you need to know multiple different ways of booking?

Years ago I had to book tickets urgently to travel to a funeral. I sat with three colleagues, we all went online and we all came up with different prices, ranging from £40 to £400.

I booked tickets last night for my daughter to travel Edin to Kings X. LNER, Lumo and Trainline all coming up with different prices. Ended up paying only £40 return. Then you hear of others paying £300 to travel a shorter journey

The system is crazy complicated. I have no idea how foreign visitors navigate the system.

The system is crazy complicated. I have no idea how foreign visitors 90% of people navigate the system.

FTFY

The amount of money spent by the government on motoring even after motoring taxation is taken off is huge in comparison to the amount of money spent on railways if you include all costs.  Most folk adding up the costs of motoring have an agenda and do not consider all the indirect costs ( and one or two the agenda is the other way)

If motorists paid the true cost motoring would be much more expensive

Was thinking just the same thing about foreigners. If I’m on anything other than LNER I feel exposed. Only comfortable with LNER cos I’ve been doing it for that long which illustrates the problem perfectly.

To MOAB point

I was told by a colleague this week that more and more folk are working a 4-day in office week – and Friday is the ‘work from home day’ in London, therefore the number of train users on a Friday afternoon as plummeted…

Yeah LNER super off peak now seemingly valid all afternoon / evening on a Friday (normally not valid between 1400-1900).

Have you tried to book a Manchester to Euston recently? Currently booking in advance means a fortnight, beyond that the tickets don’t generally exist.

I just ran it through thetrainline. I can book returns up to mid-June, which would correlate with my half-memory of "six weeks in advance." If I only want one-way I can book well into July.

That said, if you're flexible on travel time it doesn't seem to matter any more. Tickets can be had this weekend for less than thirty quid each way.

But these comparisons with car journeys made by including the cost of purchasing and insuring etc the car are quite brainless, aren’t they? Because you don’t buy a car solely to do that trip, most people have them for other reasons. I pay all those things for the convenience of being able to drive to go climb mountains or whatever I want to do, so those costs don’t all go against any individual trip, in my accounting and in most people’s I’d expect.

So just Amortise those costs, they're not imaginary: 1/365th of your insurance/VED/Finance(if applicable)/Servicing/W&T costs then add up the fuel, ULEZ and parking costs you incur going into that there London. of course it's hard to put a price on the damage to your mental health that driving a car round London must do. And, as ever, we all still ignore the amount of subsidy that our various taxes pour into roads every year...

Most transport is pretty piss poor VFM in the UK these days, but that's by design and what the great unwashed keep voting for.
If you can put up with the long journey times there are still coaches I suppose, which do take advantage of the same subsidised road network as cars, but do benefit from the scalability of moving ~50 odd passengers rather than ~4. National express and Mega bus are now the real transport choice for plebs...

Bicycles are still pretty good VFM though 😉

I was in Denmark last week. Arrived at Copenhagen airport, walked to the train station at the terminal and used a machine to buy a one way first class ticket for the next train to Aarhus. €35 for a first class ticket, the train was bang on time and stayed on time for the entire 3.5 hour journey. Train was fast, quiet, lovely and comfortable, and had tables, charging points, coffee, biscuits, and water.

All in all a very enjoyable trip. Came back 2 days later and had the exact same experience in reverse. What on earth is wrong with Britain?!

If you can put up with the long journey times

Don't forget uncomfortable and with very limited luggage options.

there are still coaches I suppose, which do take advantage of the same subsidised road network as cars, but do benefit from the scalability of moving ~50 odd passengers rather than ~4.

If you have 4 in a car the cost is actually pretty good on a per person basis.

Don’t forget uncomfortable and with very limited luggage options.

When where you last on a long distance bus?  or any bus?  They are not like that nowadays IME

So just Amortise those costs, they’re not imaginary: 1/365th of your insurance/VED/Finance

They also have to be paid whether you drive to London, Tehran, the shops or nowhere at all on any given day. Nobody (barring someone buying an £80 Honda to prove some sort of odd point or a tourist) buys a car for one trip so they're irrelevant to the overall trip cost since you would still have to pay them if you took the train, bus, plane or cycled.

When where you last on a long distance bus? or any bus? They are not like that nowadays IME

Back at you. Want to take a bike? Tough. They very much are crap and I'm struggling to understand how they could get better. A bus is a bus.

Not if you don't have a car.

Of course the fixed costs of a car need to be accounted for.

there is the additional cost per trip and the total cost

On a coach, just before pandemic, on a bus a year ago. I don't head into large cities that often at the moment.

Experiences and personal situations can and do vary between people.

Not if you don’t have a car.

Well obviously.

Of course the fixed costs of a car need to be accounted for.

No they don't, because those fixed car ownership costs apply regardless of whether you use it or not! If I have, for the sake of argument, £10 of fixed ownership costs per day (Tax, insurance and finance) then those costs could be added to my train fare as well. They don't magically go away just because I'm using an alternative form of transport (much as I would like PAYG).

If you want to discuss the overall cost of car ownership vs exclusively using public transport or other means start another thread but that's not what's being discussed here. We are talking about a single trip that an existing car owner may take.

(and in the case of the op, would most likely involve a leg by car anyhow as its a bit difficult to carry my kit on the bike, the nearest train station is 5mi away and only served by bus about 0.4 times a day so any cost of owning a car has to be added to the train just as much as it does to the car journey. YMMV of course)

It has in practice cost me £74 outbound & I'll do the inbound on the day once I know I'm finished and headed home.
Managed to push this week to next Wednesday in the end which is a bonus as it was looking like Friday otherwise.

Right on cue I book a journey from Dunblane to Slough(!) area for mid July - 10 weeks out - and it is a reasonable £160 return.
I have avoided Avanti again though, so go down the east coast with LNER.

add up the fuel, ULEZ and parking costs you incur going into that there London.

I wonder whether the best thing TfL could do is create huge short- and long-stay car parks just outside London? Driving the 200-250 miles to London doesn't phase me but I'd rather eat pins than drive through it. I remember one time driving back out through Kew and thinking that never has a district been more aptly named. If there was a massive multi-storey at say Luton than didn't cost a kidney to park in for a week I'd probably spend a lot more time down there.

Aarhus

...in the middle of our street?

than didn’t cost a kidney to park in for a week

Ahh...you want another subsidy for drivers...the market is already telling you what the price of parking is.

of course it’s hard to put a price on the damage to your mental health that driving a car round London must do

You’ve got a point there. I had the displeasure of driving around London over Christmas. I actually think it took years of my life. Of course, on the other side of the coin, one of the most stressful times of my life was having to rely on trains in London. Crammed into a sardine tin held for hours outside Clapham Junction with no explanation… regularly. Do you want your anxiety meltdown served up publicly or privately?

Right on cue I book a journey from Dunblane to Slough(!) area for mid July – 10 weeks out – and it is a reasonable £160 return.

I'd pay £160 to not go to Slough. (qualified opinion form living near Slough 25 years ago. I accept things may have moved on since then)

What on earth is wrong with Britain?!

The long version is far too long and involved to write out.
The short version is "Tories".

When where you last on a long distance bus? or any bus? They are not like that nowadays IME

I occasionally (couple of times a year) take a national express coach up to heathrow, as its the least-terrible public tranport option (takes 2 hours vs 2 hours 20 with 2 changes by train vs 1 hour by car). Its noisy, slow and uncomfortable. Luggage isn't too bad.

To be fair on them, last time I got a National Express they let me put a bike in the luggage compartment, didn't seem like a big deal although the T&C's say you can't.

I’d pay £160 to not go to Slough. (qualified opinion form living near Slough 25 years ago. I accept things may have moved on since then)

Don't people going to the "Slough area" just say Windsor, or Windsor and Maidenhead, or even just "West London" which apparently now officially extends to Bracknell?

My question is why on earth should it be that complicated? How are is a fair system when you need to know multiple different ways of booking?

My thoughts precisely. OK, if annoying, for those of us that have the time and means to sit and work out all the different options, but unfair on those who don't.

My thoughts precisely. OK, if annoying, for those of us that have the time and means to sit and work out all the different options, but unfair on those who don’t.

That's kind of how it's supposed to be though.

Offer discounts that require a few hoops to be jumped through for people who want to pay less, and a full price for peak time business travelers expensing it.

Bit like hotels, if you actually have the misfortune to walk into a motorway service station Holliday Inn there's likely a sign behind the desk to tell you it's £180 a night.

No one, except photocopier salesmen with a company credit card actually pays that rate. Everyone else either logs onto Hotel.com or phones them up from the car park and pays £35 for their miserable nights sleep.

Similar; my regular £159/return Reading to Newcastle was cheaper in advance, but a client was paying and it was easier for me to just be able to turn up and get on whichever train I could. If it had been my own money I'd have booked a week ahead for half the price.

I do Edinburgh to Kings Cross monthly. The LNER advance first class tickets are usually around £125 each way.
I do sometime forget the pain associated with it and opt to fly, but the extras on top of the £50 each way fares soon add up. Airport parking, taking a carry on bag that can hold a few days clothes and kit and travel from LGW/STN/LHR into the centre usually easily double the fare.

That’s kind of how it’s supposed to be though.

Only in this ****ed up excuse for a country, how come I can log onto bahn.de and book a simple to understand fare just about anywhere in Europe (barring the ridiculously cheap unlimited travel tickets so many countries rail operators sell)?

Everyone else either logs onto Hotel.com or phones them up from the car park and pays £35 for their miserable nights sleep.

Except in your analogy the room is priced by the hour and you have to book 2 hours before you arrive until 1am then book it again till 8 followed by another booking to 2pm when you only wanted to stay until 10.

My question is why on earth should it be that complicated? How are is a fair system when you need to know multiple different ways of booking?

Thetrainline works all this out for you, including split tickets now. I've dabbled with other services such as ones run by the train operators (eg, Virgin) and I don't recall them ever being significantly cheaper.

Am I missing something? Has it changed since I last bought an expensive train ticket?

Why should you have to piss about splitting tickets?
Why is is significantly cheaper to travel further?

Is it too much to ask just to swipe on at the start and swipe off at the end, your fare calulated according to distance travelled and service used?

Christ, I can't even book most fares for early July right now, WTAF is that about?