[Closed] "By 2019 no new Volvo cars will be sold without an electric motor"

That's exactly where I am on this. The day I can read or sleep on my way to work I'll be happy. If I've got to be awake & looking I might as well be operating the car. IMHO.

IMO I can't think of anything worse - at least with public transport you can people watch. But after a 12 hour shift in labs, I'd like something like a mid-range caterham or a motorbike to wake me the hell up again.

I'm not sure becoming more insulated is better for out mental health, maybe for the death rate on public roads. Going home in a silent, clinical self driving car glued to my Samsung Note 20 after a day in quiet white sterile labs, surrounded by people whos faces I can't recognise because they are covered head to toe in PPE...is my idea of a dystopian nightmare.

It's the same with the idea of the artificial home chef, I cook because it connects me to the world around me.

IMO I can't think of anything worse - at least with public transport you can people watch. But after a 12 hour shift in labs, I'd like something like a mid-range caterham or a motorbike to wake me the hell up again.

You are a bit special though.

Most people don't have beautiful open roads to swoop through. So they just end up venting frustration on little bits of dual carriageway between roundabouts. That'd be even more frustrating I reckon. Have you tried masturbation instead?

IMO I can't think of anything worse - at least with public transport you can people watch. But after a 12 hour shift in labs, I'd like something like a mid-range caterham or a motorbike to wake me the hell up again.

I'm not sure becoming more insulated is better for out mental health, maybe for the death rate on public roads. Going home in a silent, clinical self driving car glued to my Samsung Note 20 after a day in quiet white sterile labs, surrounded by people whos faces I can't recognise because they are covered head to toe in PPE...is my idea of a dystopian nightmare.

Nope, I don't regard my commute as part of my life at all. It's dead time I hate. My commute is along a boring straight road in an overcrowded area so it's not like a bike commute over twisty mountain roads which I could enjoy.

If I can get an hours sleep in the car I could spend an hour more doing things I love with people I love[s]just about tolerate[/s].

Academic, cos I don't think self drive cars are gonna happen any time soon. When you read the limitations of the current crop we're decades away from texting my car to pick me up after it's dropped the kids off at School or meet me 12 miles down stream at a certain time to pick me up with my Kayak.

How very bloody patronising and condescending!

Christ not this again. You accused me of all this once and it was all bollocks. You really need to calm down.

The reason most people are talking about cities is that's where most people live, where most cars are and most of the pollution is. It shouldn't need saying that all of this is possible WHERE POSSIBLE.

However - much of Sweden is a lot more isolated than you can probably imagine, and Volvo still think they are onto something. The point is that people have to take the initative and get something done. Do people in the countryside watch Netflix because they have broadband? No, they have broadband because they want to watch Netflix.

Bristol and Chippenham on the A420

Hehehe.. countryside.. hehe..

Anyway - eventually, there'll be chargers under all parking spaces. The cables are right there after all, so it's hardly a stretch. There'll be a little chip so it knows who you are and you get the bill.

And that'll happen because manufacturers are investing in the electric future.

The beauty of charge points is they're open regardless of the time of the day.

Most of them aren't, check "chargemap".

Mining lithium is messy, but then so is drilling for oil, fracking etc.

Electric vehicles are clean at the point of use so they are good for public health.

The lack of charge points put me off buying until now. But greater range and rapidly developing infrastructure mean I should be able to do everything I do with the petrol car in the electric. I'll no doubt keep a book and a guitar in it to while away the charge time on long journeys. It does mean I'll have to take a break every three hours or so.

Not read all this but why don't "they" do this?
We already have a big hole in the front of the car for the engine.
Why not make that hole the same size in every car and you can change the battery.
You'd pull up at a petrol station a machine would lift put the battery and put a new one in. The Petrol station would then recharge the battery to go into the next car.
The roof of the petrol station could have solar panels to help with energy creation.
Of course you could still charge your car at home.

Electric vehicles are clean at the point of use so they are good for public health.

Never mind the pollution created when generating the electricity or when making the car. They're all fluffy and lovely at the point of use. They actually cuddle polar bears.

Cost of production v cost of use.

Keep an old car going or keep buying MOAR NEW THINGS! Hmmmm.

Never mind the pollution created when generating the electricity or when making the car.

Um, electricity can be generated renewably. Petrol is harder to make. Although people are working on that too.

Keep an old car going or keep buying MOAR NEW THINGS! Hmmmm.

Or the third option you've overlooked in your haste to denigrate, which is keep an old car going as long as possible and THEN buy an electric one.

Keep an old car going. Far cleaner.

In terms of local pollution that's not so. And given the European energy mix an EV will produce less emissions over its lifetime than an old car over its last few years of life.

When you're out on your bike in town CFH, would you really rather ride past a queue of old diesels belching out toxic fumes or a queue of Zoes just sitting there.

EDit: I see CFH has been editing and replaced errors with block capitals.

Reading all that actually inspired me go out and start up my open-piped V8, give it a few blips and laugh manically.

Or the third option you've overlooked in your haste to denigrate, which is keep an old car going as long as possible and THEN buy an electric one.

Someone will keep the old vehicle going anyhow (unless there's some scrappage scheme to distort the market). The choices about the makeup of the car stock are made by those buying new. If you buy an electric then ultimately there will be one less internal-combustion-engined car on the roads.

And of course, whilst electricity takes energy to produce, so do petrol and diesel, in addition to that produced when burning it.

CFH do you have a credible* breakdown of the total energy and pollution costs over the lifecycle (including recycling capability) of electric vs fossil fuel cars?

* and by credible I mean not sponsored by an oil company like the ridiculous Prius vs Hummer one that has spread itself all over the internet.

Someone will keep the old vehicle going anyhow

True, but then again - large numbers of cheap but usable used cars mean that far more people now own them, which actually has a negative environmental impact. I think this is why so many people drive two miles to work whereas in the past they'd have walked.

Having said that - a lot of usable or repairable cars get scrapped in this country becaues the price of used cars is so low.

I think you'll find that the people buying electric vehicles are the same ones who still walk two miles to work, or cycle or use an electric bike.

Wake me up when my liability as a car user transfers to the manufacturer.

You'd pull up at a petrol station a machine would lift put the battery and put a new one in. The Petrol station would then recharge the battery to go into the next car.

The Renault Fluence was built around that "quick drop" priciple:

It met with resistance and was dropped. I borrowed a Fluence, the range was too short for the system to be practical. You'd have had to change the battery every second motorway service area.

The Japanese have done it:

Most people don't have beautiful open roads to swoop through. So they just end up venting frustration on little bits of dual carriageway between roundabouts. That'd be even more frustrating I reckon. Have you tried masturbation instead?

You don't even need open roads, just something that vibrates a bit, is uncomfortable, noisey and has drafts! Eg a 2CV!

Even an 80hp Caterham would be make your day a little less dull.

Nope, I don't regard my commute as part of my life at all. It's dead time I hate. My commute is along a boring straight road in an overcrowded area so it's not like a bike commute over twisty mountain roads which I could enjoy.

There's a bit of bridleway on my cycle to work, that would be terribly boring normally - but I choose to do it on crapped out Raleigh fully rigid, with thin commuter tyres. It scares me ****ing senseless sometimes, but pops really nicely off kerbs.

I'm not saying going to something from the 30's would make you commute more interesting - but there is something to be said for things that have a little bit more character and life to them.

We already have a big hole in the front of the car for the engine.
Why not make that hole the same size in every car and you can change the battery.
You'd pull up at a petrol station a machine would lift put the battery and put a new one in. The Petrol station would then recharge the battery to go into the next car.
The roof of the petrol station could have solar panels to help with energy creation.
Of course you could still charge your car at home.

Mostly due to the size of the batteries required for any form of range means they have to be fairly well integrated in to the vehicle to allow for any sort of reasonable weight distribution. For example I believe that the Tesla Model S it is basically a slab of battery below the floor plan.

The other thing to note is that as there is no flammable fuel the vehicles are considered to have a much higher safety rating. Iirc the Model X was the safest in its class and the Model S got the highest safety rating of any car (this might be US only mind you I can't remember)

but there is something to be said for things that have a little bit more character and life to them.

I'm familiar with Caterhams, I've driven a championship winning example of the original Lotus Seven. The original Mini 850 was a bundle of laughs whilst struggling to reach the speed limit between bends. The Zoe is the first car to inspire me since cars like that and for the opposite reasons. Almost no noise apart from a strange sci-fi hum below 30kmh so pedestrians and cyclists know you're there (the Fluence was too quiet), fluid acceleration, no need to brake (unless your anticipation is lousy), goes-where-you-point-it handling. It feels like you're in the future.

Most of them aren't, check "chargemap".

I have and as of yet I've not found one in a 30 mile radius that closes, so not sure that's most.

I'm familiar with Caterhams, I've driven a championship winning example of the original Lotus Seven. The original Mini 850 was a bundle of laughs whilst struggling to reach the speed limit between bends. The Zoe is the first car to inspire me since cars like that and for the opposite reasons. Almost no noise apart from a strange sci-fi hum below 30kmh so pedestrians and cyclists know you're there (the Fluence was too quiet), fluid acceleration, no need to brake (unless your anticipation is lousy), goes-where-you-point-it handling. It feels like you're in the future.

I could see electric cars being fun, all you need is a foldable roof to wake you up a little - but the idea of sitting in a silent self-driving box, with some radio presenter with a received pronunciation accent telling me about the latest terrorism legislation - whilst I'm glued to the latest Samsung SIGINT device....gives me the willies.

As a driver of a 15 year old Volvo (and a multiple Volvo owner) I worry they are about to make their cars so complicated and 'cutting edge' that they last no longer than other manufacturers cars.

Electric cars aren't complicated. One moving part in an electric motor instead of hundreds in a petrol engine and gearbox.

there is something to be said for things that have a little bit more character and life to them.

Where it's appropriate. But there are plenty of better things in life than crap cars to which people attribute this undefinable thing called 'character'.

Think of the brilliant books you could read on your commute. I got through loads when I had a train commute. Loved it.

Think of the brilliant books you could read on your commute. I got through loads when I had a train commute. Loved it.

Trains are less joyless though, because of people/life around you - and they tend to run in a straighter line - anything other than movies gives me motion sickness in a car.

Good point. They need audio book radio stations.

In fact that is a great idea anyway.

Electric vehicles are clean at the point of use so they are good for public health.

Back to my point about not giving a shit about the environmental mess left where the lithium is mined, the batteries manufactured and the disposed of.

Electric cars may be good for *our* environment but globally? Not so much.

And I'll repeat that the oil industry is very messy and greenhousing the planet into a Devonian desert.

Yes it is and a huge amount of petro- chemicals are used in making Lithium batteries. The long term issues of disposing of huge quantities of them still hasn't properly been addressed.

My point is neither solution is great and certainly electric cars are not the wonder creations consumers are being led to believe.

There was a new lithium battery recycling unit on our local TV recently. It's currently labour intensive so expensive but the process works fine. The cost of both recyclcling and manufacturing lithium batteries means that even when they drop below the 75% level at which they are removed from cars they still have value and a use.

Renault uses the old batteries for energy storage for its solar power station. The energy is stored and sold to the grid when it's most needed (and profitable). Only when the batteries are no longer economically viable in this role are they recycled. Energy supplied to the grid in this way avoids firing gas-fired power stations at peak demand so further cuts CO2 emissions.

I'm massively into my cars as is my other half. Between us we have about 1500hp sat on the drive and none of them manage more than about 35mpg (the M6 is pretty close to single figures). With that said, my next purchase will hopefully be electric, or at least a hybrid. The sad fact is that living in the south east, you can have all the BHP in the world but you're still going to be sat in a queue of traffic doing 50mph or less and when you finally do find a stretch of open road, it normally has average speed cameras. There's just no fun to owning a quick car anymore, unless you do track days or live somewhere in Wales in my opinion. The combined cost of owning said cars, just to sit in traffic and trundle about getting 9mpg just seems a bit pointless now.

There will always be stalwarts that stick to the big capacity petrol engines, but for me times are a changing - as much as I love the noise, sound and speed of quick cars they're a bit irrelevant now. If I'm sat in a traffic jam (95% of my driving is) then I might as well have something electric with comfy seats and a decent radio...if there's an environmental benefit to it then all the better...

If only they could make one that sounded like a V8 on open pipes..

I'd suggest plenty of Volvos are currently being sold "with electric motors" I mean, my XC 60 has electric windows powered by an electric motor.

#smokeandapancakemirrors

Back to my point about not giving a shit about the environmental mess left where the lithium is mined, the batteries manufactured and the disposed of.

So if at the moment Li mining is environmentally unfriendly, what's to say it can't be improved?

If only they could make one that sounded like a V8 on open pipes..

Someone will come up with an aftermarket external speaker setup.

Someone will come up with an aftermarket external speaker setup

[img] [/img]

I think you'll find that the people buying electric vehicles are the same ones who still walk two miles to work, or cycle or use an electric bike.

Really? Respectfully, I think you're talking mince.

The folk who are walking or cycling are doing so for either health, economic or environmental reasons. Why would they want a car?

Personally I'd change the whole VED system to take into account proximity to public transport. Have it based on a quality scale where 10 is a short walk to a TFL-esque 24h metro system and 1 is a twice weekly bus service to Market Nowhere. Anyone wanting a car basically gets penalised based on the quality of the public transport they are rejecting.

Cars are a crutch we have become far too used to having. People wouldnt need them if the previously provisioned public transport services hadnt been decimated in the way they generally have. If you look at pre-Beeching railway maps its insane how much infrastructure was ripped up. This could be used again, not even necessarily by heavy rail but a fast and efficient bus or light rail service that avoids main roads. Personally I'd be willing to lose cycle tracks on rail beds if it meant a sizeable reduction of cars off the roads.

People who walk 2 miles to work are lazy, and don't give a shit what they drive as long as it's cheap - in my experience.

Re public transport - every city needs a tram network I reckon.

every city needs a tram network I reckon.

Trolley buses, then cyclists wouldn't get taken out by the rails.

People who walk 2 miles to work are lazy,

Yeah, er, what?

Trolley buses are also far cheaper and less disruptive. The rail thing comes down to bad design IMO, plenty other places seem to manage better than Edinburgh.

Sorry. DRIVE.

What's the difference between a trolley bus and a bus?

Point about trams is that these days they are hybrids so they use train infrastructure and hence go much more quickly and directly when they need to, without traffic, but then they can nip onto roads when the rails run out or around the city centre.

Point about trams is that these days they are hybrids so they use train infrastructure and hence go much more quickly and directly when they need to, without traffic, but then they can nip onto roads when the rails run out or around the city centre.

Now that makes sense, I didn't know trams had gone modern like that!

Yeah agreed, I cant work out Edukators logic on this one, an electric car is quite a financial outlay.

They still run on rails, just not on segregated railways! You are talking about tram trains which are basically high powered trams that can take advantage of rail infrastructure.

Trolley buses have a pantograph, they're wired electric so more like a tram but don't run on rails. They're a halfway house if you will. Means no need to divert utilities or lay costly tracks as they can just drive around roadworks (the pantographs stretch like button ski lifts).

Not always the case unfortunately as the brand new modern tram system in Edinburgh shows.

[img] [/img]

an electric car is quite a financial outlay.

16 000e for the Zoe. How many STWers own cars that cost less than that new? Most of the regular contributors to STW have revealed what car they drive at some point and I can't think of many that own cheaper cars.

The sad fact is that living in the south east, you can have all the BHP in the world but you're still going to be sat in a queue of traffic doing 50mph or less

That has been the case for almost as long as I have been driving and exactly the reason I drive a 70bhp car that gets me over 50mpg.
I make sure it handles and corners well and that is all I need.

As for electric cars, not for me yet. They don't go far enough on a charge and are not cheap enough (I don't buy expensive cars)

Produce an electric small car that has a range of 200 miles and costs the same as the equivalent petrol version (£10K) and I would have one tomorrow.

Yes, tram trains - they're a bloody good idea.

16 000e for the Zoe. How many STWers own cars that cost less than that new?

Problem is Ed that whilst people are happy to pay more than that for a car, they don't want to pay that for a small city runabout. People do buy small city runabouts, in their thousands, but they are £8k. So you're asking people to double their outlay for the sake of the environment. There aren't many people prepared to do that, unfortunately. I wish that were not the case.

I reckon the vast majority of electric cars are company cars, because the tax penalties are so much lower they become much more viable financially.

Produce an electric small car that has a range of 200 miles and costs the same as the equivalent petrol version (£10K) and I would have one tomorrow.

I'd have a small electric car with a range of 50 or even 30 miles if it were £8k - as a second car for urban use. As would I expect a great many people.

I'd love a hybrid or electric car. I reckon we could make do with a full electric car for our use.
Except for two things.....
1) I looked at a Prius a while back but the luggage capacity is woeful and you can't fit a towbar to them, so it's useless for bikes or towing the trailer.
2) Purchase price. When I can get one for under £2500 I might consider it, but we don't use the car enough to make the saving on fuel.

That's 16000 next to an e-bike or walking. That's the people you originally claimed would buy one.

And how many major cities actually warrant owning a "city run about"? Not many if we're entirely honest.

[url= https://www.gumtree.com/cars/uk/renault/zoe ]£4000, cheap enough, for Molgrips and posssibly even Peter.[/url]

Squirrelking look at the demographics for the buyers of solar panels, electric bikes, electric cars, active holidays and cycling and the target demographics are similar. There are at least three Zoe and one Leaf buyers on this very forum. How long before someone buys a Tesla?

I know STW hates anecdotes but there are three EV vehicle owners in my MTB club - there are only 26 of us. Two are also utility cyclists who prefer the train for long journeys and one walks to work. On the negative side EV owners in the US tend to own lots of vehicles of which just one is electric.

The city runouabout isn't the demographic, a German study shows buyers live in the country or sem-urban areas and use the vehicle to commute.

Edit: again anecdotal but the Renault dealer flashed up the location of all the people who had bought a Zoe from him. They formed a ring around the town with lots of dots on the dormitory villages.

That as may be but you are only reinforcing my point that car culture and the way our towns and such are structured are a bigger problem that needs addressed

I see changing the ways towns are structured to facilitate less polluting transport and EV vehicles as contributing to the same objectives. Quieter towns with cleaner air. The problem EVs don't solve is conjestion, but at least the vehicles stuck in taffic pollute less and are almost silent.

The problem EVs don't solve is conjestion,

This would help with that
[img] [/img]

£4000, cheap enough, for Molgrips and posssibly even Peter.

Yeah I am definitely interested in used ones at that price, when I change the Prius which will be in many years (hopefully).

The city runouabout isn't the demographic, a German study shows buyers live in the country or sem-urban areas and use the vehicle to commute.

To me, city runabout means commuting into the city from the suburbs or just outside. Say a 10-15 mile journey at most.

My mate is involved with a European company who want to use phone boxes as charging points for electric vehicles. Lots of cable runs in place already.

I wouldn't get an electric car. I don't have any car and don't intend to go back.

Back to my point about not giving a shit about the environmental mess left where the lithium is mined, the batteries manufactured and the disposed of.

Electric cars may be good for *our* environment but globally? Not so much.

Don't let our well regulated UK O&G industry fool you into thinking it's the same globally - quite the opposite, before even considering the devastation from CO2 emissions, war (so often down to oil grab/pipeline control) , oil spills, burning oil wells, tar sand habitat loss etc.

I'm happy to see Volvo go electric. I'll buy one.

That will be quite a few years though as first I have to wear out the present one.

I saw an ad for the Vauxhall Ampera. That looks like a good idea - basically an electric car with a back up on board generator (if I understand it correctly). It certainly solves the problem of a shortage of charging points.

Another part of reducing car usage is about multi mode transport. People always talk about bike and Train but car and train or bus needs to be easier. At the moment most park and rides are so inefficient and expensive unless you are going into town for a entire day they are slow and expensive.

Its not a transport problem, the transport part is relatively easy to fix but cars do more than that.

They empower people.
They project status.
They are fun.

You are going to need to replace those as well as provide transport options.

The battery lease on that Zoe is more than we spend putting fuel in the Toyota IQ (25 quid per fill up mostly once a month).

Maybe that's why they are so cheap?

£4000, cheap enough, for Molgrips and posssibly even Peter.

Yeah great. Can it tow a trailer full of logs or pick up 3-4 people plus luggage form the airport? Err no.

I think there quite good at towing and can fit as many people as the same size car with a petrol engine.

I think there quite good at towing and can fit as many people as the same size car with a petrol engine.

Max. braked / unbraked towing weight Not allowed / Not allowed

What you think and reality seems to be somewhat different.

Edukator - you are deliberately dodging the point I am trying to make - replacing one car with another isn't enough, there has to be an entire mode change in many cases order for it to be [b]sustainable[/b]. This isn't about localised emissions, it's about the big picture. The current trend of private car ownership is not sustainable either in road space or material costs. Electric cars as a sole option aren't sustainable either.

I'm not missing your point, Squirrelking, I'm agreeing with it. Transport infrastructure needs to be built around efficient public mass transport and people travelling less.

Many professionals will still need independant transport though, and electric vehicles are ideal for that role.

The key word here is "transition". A transition to more efficient and sustainable transport systems among other things: a transition to renewable energy sources, a transition to more sustainable manufacturing, more efficent housing and business premises... .

Right now I can walk, cycle, use the train and bus where feasible, and if I do use car, use a small electric rather than a big diesel.

Yeah great. Can it tow a trailer full of logs or pick up 3-4 people plus luggage form the airport? Err no.

You've pointed out that it's no good for you, but that doesn't mean it's no good for everyone. Why do people do this?

The current trend of private car ownership is not sustainable either in road space or material costs.

Pretty much most of our modern lifestyle is unsustainable. We'll hvae to do a lot more than adjust transport infrastructure. But it'll be a big first step forward.

Look how the idea of personal transport pods is received on here. Pretty positive. Seems like people want to own a nice car if they are going to own one, but are willing to separate all the car related bollocks and the fundamentals of transportation.

Perhaps car pods will be the norm and nice sporty cars will be a hobby related purchase like a bike or set of golf clubs.

Apologies, it didn't seem clear.

🙂

You can't fit a roof rack either. We checked two 27" MTBs would go inside and will rent/borrow if we need to move big stuff. Renault do a 30% reduction on anything you rent if you own a Renault electric. They've got so many cars in stock they'll always find you something suitbale even in peak holiday periods.

I didn't realise we were talking about one specific car more electric as power.

PeterPoddy was replying to the Zoe link.

AFAIK a most present electric cars don't tow. No idea why, it's not like it isn't possible:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

(as a bonus they're autonomous as well)

Nice most recent episode of fully charged.