[Closed] Buying a Zoe, what do I need to know?

You no longer call it a car you have to refer to it as Zoé.

And you’re gonna love it.

Do you have room for a charger at home?
One at work?
I almost exclusively use that and one at the office.
For public points get the zap map app and see what’s around you. Sign up to schemes as appropriate. Only need paid subscriptions if you’re planning on using a particular public charger regularly.

On a serious note I use Charge Your Car as they seem to have the largest network coverage for chargers.

I believe the standard fare is you must pop up in any car/driving thread and deliver a massive dump of hipocrasy on anyone who dares to talk about fun in cars.

Oh and you must tell everyone they are wrong about needing a vehicle that isn't a Zoe.- it's in the purchase contract.

Seriously though Once they stick the power plant in a Berlingo/rifter combi (can get a electric van ATM) and type approved a tow bar for it it'll likely be my(wife's) next car

Oh and you must tell everyone they are wrong about needing a vehicle that isn’t [s]a [/s] Zoe.-

FTFY.

By Spring 2020, all new rapid EV charge points should offer card payment access for pay-as-you-go usage, as part of the UK Government’s Road to Zero strategy.
for the rest I think the attached vid is still up to date, it's a bit of a minefield.

That video is nothing like the reality, I've only ever had a to use a different network once and it took less than 5 minutes to setup on account so I could use my phone to pay.

I’m going to get the charger fitted for home.
Someone told me about a subscription which he said cost £20 per year and then he got free charging. It sounded a bit too good to be true, but does anyone know if it exists?
Need to see what bike carrying options there are - if any.

That video is nothing like the reality, I’ve only ever had a to use a different network once

True, but I found it useful to get an understanding of the UK Network as a whole, It then depends on your circumstances to make a decision on which network(s) to join, if any, ie someone using the motorway network a lot would probably want to be on Ecotricity Electric Highway as they currently seem to have the monopoly at service stations.

Don't you have a e golf hybrid drac.

It's different for you to someone who absolutely must charge up or stop moving.

If you're in Scotland then everything on the ChragePlace Scotland network is free, other then the small annual sub (maybe £15?). It covers almost all the public chargers (the odd supermarket or service station excluded). I think Charge Your Car is similar in England but has a small connection fee per charge).

If you use https://www.zap-map.com/ to find public chargers then you can filter to choose the ones that are compatible with your car as well as checking the status of the charger. I only ever really use it if I'm on a long journey.

If you can charge at home or work you're onto a winner though. Especially if you get one of the EV specific tarrifs that providers do (am in the process of investigating so don't have any recommendations).

We recently purchased a 40kW Zoe and love it.
A couple of specific points:

Bike carrying options are limited. No towbar can be fitted and conventional strap on hatchback racks cannot be used due to the spoiler design at top of the hatch. There is at least one specialist rack option however I just take the front wheels off and put bikes inside. Two road bikes or MTBs can be carried in this way, though I am pretty small so have XS frames....

Charge options depend on where you live. In Scotland nearly all charge points are part of a single network so no issues. You do indeed pay £20 annual subscription and get free charging at the vast majority of points. This may change in the future. I believe that England and Wales are more complex with multiple networks, though greater commonality is coming.

For what most people actually do with a car the Zoe is suitable, range is lower but once you learn to plan around your routine it is not an issue for >95% of the time.
I do not get all preachy and denounce the car choices of others, simply explaining how the Zoe works and why I like it is enough to get most people interested.

Enjoy!

Stevious,
I have recently changed electricity supplier to Octopus.
They offer 'Octopus Go' which includes electricity at approximately 5p/kwh for 4 hours overnight, normal rate is approximately 15p/kwh. Smart meter is required.
Change was very easy and I like what Octopus do with innovative tarrifs, export metering for solar PV etc
This is worth a look if you have an EV.

I am supposed to be working at home today, must stop replying to STW EV threads......

How do know if somebody has a a hybrid or electric car?

Don't worry they'll tell you 👍😂

I do Trail_rat so yes I have that back up but the chargers are still the same it really isn't complex at all.

. I think Charge Your Car is similar in England but has a small connection fee per charge).

£20 per year but the depends on the local authority if they charge you or not Northumberland is free.

As above, start looking at changing onto Octopus Go tariff if you can. Alternatives are detailed on Zap Map website which I can never find so link here zap-map.com/charge-points/ev-energy-tariffs

There's also a new Octopus Agile tariff which some EV users are trying, worth looking into, early days tho

Cheers for the tip on Octopus Go I'll look back at them next year when I'll probably be going full EV.

Thanks all. I am in Scotland, but we’ve just changed our electricity supplier. I’ll need to check if they do a charging option.

Make sure it still has the original Renault warranty and renew it BEFORE the end of the 4 year term as you can't do it later.

I've just changed to the new EDF EV tariff which extends the off peak rate times to 23:00 hrs to 07:00 hours overnight and 24 hours a day at weekends. Rates vary depending on location but mine are 8 pence and 16 pence.

Zap-Map / PlugShare / abetterrouteplanner, just see which make sense for the journeys you do. Most charging networks have an app and let you pay as you go so just get set up with the likely ones.

Ecotricity have had an effective monopoly on the motorway services, the others have lots of sites just off motorway junctions that can be quieter and nicer.

Rzoc.club or find rzoc on Facebook, there’s a lot of good info tucked away there.

Octopus go looks a good move overall bit their standing charge is 25p. That does dig in a little bit to the saving.

I reckon my current EV charging is about 250 a year on current tarrif.

The same if I did every charge on the low tarrif on octopus go would be £100ish. Less the difference in standing charge.

Saving of about £70 a year. But then the main tarrif is a little bit more too.

Not as risky as a Louise?

Dumb question. Do you buy the car and have the battery on rent/ contract? Last time i looked the battery rental was more than i pay in petrol (for similar miles, about 9k/pa). Looked again last month but its not clear on a lot of the adverts.

Last time i looked the battery rental was more than i pay in petrol

Electric cars are not yet at the point where they are as cheap to run as a small engine petrol car (additional purchase price + paying to charge) but that is not really why people get one I would guess as it is more of a pollution thing.
Once they make sense financially I will be buying one which should coincide with when I need a new car (2025)

Deposit paid on one today. Got the battery lease transfer form now, so the process is in progress. I suspect nots going to be hugely cheaper than our petrol doblo, but that’s ok, as it’s more about our CO2 footprint. And yes reduce meat intake / reduce flying etc are all in the mix too. Was a fun wee thing to drive, I can see there being some debate between me and Mrs OTS around who gets to take it or the luxo barge in the winter.

We've had it a couple of weeks now. The Chargeplace scotland subscription is magic - free charging across their network which include council car parks and train stations, and even better, Mrs OTS's office. I can't help thinking that if more people knew about it, there would be more EVs on the road in Scotland. Just trying to get a charge point installed at home now - although I'm not sure we actually need it.

Do you have to go to a main Renault dealer for sevicing etc. to keep the 'warranty' on the battery etc.? I know Toyota will basically guarantee the battery in their hybrids as long as you do the yearly checks with them (or thats what the saesman told me on a test drive).

I work in the EV industry and I don’t understand the battery rental, the amount you’d pay for fuel in a small diesel is similar to the rental plus charging. You’ve then got all the downsides of an EV without the benefit of it being cheaper to run and with the limited range. Of course you could use this argument with all EV as none are as cheap to run as their ICE equivalent.
But they do drive well 😁

The battery rental isn't great, but it does guarantee it and the numbers over 5 years for a similarly specced Kia Soul or i3 without battery rental work out about the same (I have the spreadsheet 🙂 ).

I traded our Zoé 40 in for a Zoé 50 this morning. Apart from the bigger battery and fast charge they've fixed some of the things I've mentioned on here and unfixed others:

+
The LED headlights are much brighter and with a better cut off so you can see without annoying others.
The heater controls make getting heat out easier even if the total output still isn't great.
It's quieter, the transmission whine has gone.
It's faster, but the old one was plenty fast enough.
It has a touch screen and is compatible with my phone.
The radio is better
The suspension is more supple and better controlled, very nice. I think the tyres contribute.

-
The inside is very black, I liked the white and grey in the old one
The dash is harder to read and the variable brightness doesn't work (a fault unless I'm thick)
Some things can only be done from the phone, pre-heat for example
It has an electric handbrake, no handbrake turns
It takes longer to boot, only seconds but long enough to irritate.
If there was the option of an ignition key/card I'd take it, the hands-free-card-in-pocket system irritates.

Old Zoé was fault free apart from the odd rattle, fingers crossed with this one. I'll be even more careful about looking after the battery as I own it; keeping it between 20 and 90% except on long trips. Old Zoé had no noticeable battery deterioration after 2 1/2 years, if new Zoé behaves we'll be keeping her a bit longer.

I’ve just changed to the new EDF EV tariff which extends the off peak rate times to 23:00 hrs to 07:00 hours overnight and 24 hours a day at weekends. Rates vary depending on location but mine are 8 pence and 16 pence.

Just gone on to that. Very efficient for a Leccy company in terms of getting it all booked in.

Lots of hours to do other things on the cheap too.

but that is not really why people get one I would guess as it is more of a pollution thing

More a posturing thing

Does anyone know how much cold winter temperatures affect the battery? Lithium batteries dont like the cold and youd be running the heater which is presumably off the battery too, there being no waste heat from an engine to use.

I work in the EV industry and I don’t understand the battery rental, the amount you’d pay for fuel in a small diesel is similar to the rental plus charging. You’ve then got all the downsides of an EV without the benefit of it being cheaper to run and with the limited range. Of course you could use this argument with all EV as none are as cheap to run as their ICE equivalent.
But they do drive well 😁

Presumably it's about avoiding the cliff edge cost of a new battery. Or turning capital cost into running costs.

The maths on running costs is frightening even comparing most efficient per kw (which according to reviews is not the Zoe)electric vehicle to a comparable ice.

Basically 230000 miles to break even on cost using home charging prices on efficient tarrif *

Or iirc 160000 if every single charge is free.

I'd certainly need to take a close look at my life style if I was getting the financial good of the EV because it'll be a pile of rusty rotten dust before I've got to 160000miles in it.

Has anyone done any lifecycle calculations on carbon foot print of both over their life time....

Has anyone done any lifecycle calculations on carbon foot print of both over their life time….

Yes but only as propaganda for either oil companies or eco evangelists. I think you'll struggle to find anything definitive.

Well mines self done math so happy to be proven wrong on my figures- which were done using published figures rather than some pie out the sky I drive 45 and get numbers you can only dream of figures.

Has anyone done any lifecycle calculations on carbon foot print of both over their life time….

Yes, the Fraunhofer institute. The mileage at which the electric has a lower carbon footprint varies by model but the electric always wins out over the lifetime - and that's with the filthy German electricity mix.

Well mines self done math

And I broadly agree with you, no matter which way I looked at it the Zoé was more expensive than a Tce Dacia Sandero Stepway to run for me over 3, 5 and even possibly 8 years at 10 000km/year (I posted the comparison on another thread but have failed to find it). Break even comes at over 15 000km/year or 100 000km total. What were you comparing with, Trailrat? You don't buy a Zoé because it's the cheapest car to run, but then most people don't buy the cheapest car to run, look at the car threads on this forum, STWers buy Audis, BMWs etc. loaded with toys and wide wheels. It's more about flash and dash than running costs apart from those buying second-hand Berlingos and Mondeos. If you look at what the average STWer spends on their car transport I doubt I'm even in the top half running a Zoé from new to 3-5 years.

Compared a leaf with a note. - a popular comparison

Yeah the e golf is roughly 4.5 times more expensive than a leaf on published figures as well as more expensive to buy.

Also to note those buying because of Scottish free charge points .... My uncle with a leaf is finding them being eroded with previously free ones becoming payment charge points.

I don't think most people expect free electricity. Same driver (me) in similar elctric and petrol cars the electricity cost is about 1/5 the cost of petrol at standard (not off-peak) French electricty costs at home and about 1/4 if I use Mobiv charge points. In the UK it's similar to home charge but in Germany it's 2/5 and 4/5.

Absolutely.

But I've had some evangelists push the free charge thing on me and I'm just old enough to remember when diesel was much cheeper than petrol so they pushed diesel cars hard.....

Then diesel was bumped over and above once we were all hooked

I do think once demand is met and they are keeping up with production price will come down to realistic levels -and/or ice will increase to meet it..... Then it will make sense.

Well mines self done math

How do you reckon the carbon cost of the batteries and cost of e-drivetrain vs ICE drivetrain?

(Honest question - because these are the areas where those doing the 'studies' start to get disingenuous and manipulate the numbers)

So far the price hasn't dropped but the spec has made great strides for the same price. Inflation adjusted the price of the Zoé hasn't increased, but the Battery has gone from 23 to 41 to 52kWh, the old more powerful motor in now the base model motor and overall the spec has much improved. At some point an electric will rival ICE on price, I suspect it will be the new Twingo - but the announced range isn't enough for us so we bought another Zoé.

I've just gone on carwow and basic 40 leaf is 22750 (Chorley Nissan), basic eGolf 23450 (Doncaster VW). New Golf S basic petrol is 22495. CBA comparing trim but as a starter the egolf comes with alloys, the Golf S comes with steel wheels. I suspect the egolf comes with a bit more in basic flavour as they're shifting them ahead of ID3.

edit:: eGolf now 22796 (JCT600 VW West Yorkshire Online)

22495 appears to be vw rrp .

The new oil...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49759626

"Run by a Canadian firm, Nautilus Minerals, the project will be managed from a ship in the tropical waters of the Bismarck Sea off Papua New Guinea. Three of the vast machines will be lowered to the slopes of an undersea volcano.

There they will encounter a stretch of seabed covered in hydrothermal vents. These strange twisting chimneys are formed by boiling water blasting up from the rock.

As with most fields of vents, this one is astonishingly rich in valuable metals. The site is named Solwara 1 - “salt water” in the local language.

But the hydrothermal vents host thriving communities of marine life - snails, worms and shrimp that have evolved to cope with very specific conditions.

In some cases these creatures are extremely rare, which is why the prospect of deep sea mining is highly controversial.

The plan is for Kewa to guide the steel teeth of the mining machines so they methodically demolish the vents, pulverising them into fragments.

The tiny pieces of rock should then be small enough to be piped up to the surface. On board the ship, a processing plant will churn out a multitude of specks of copper and gold that could be worth billions. A Chinese firm has already agreed to buy the lot.

Once the riches of Solwara 1 have been extracted, the machines will be moved to another dozen sites lined up nearby."

Yes. wasn't trying to misinform just the S didn't come up on carwow. Just tried other parameter and offer was 18690 for S 1.6tdi diesel (Newbury VW)

So Re fuel cost. I worked on Octopus Go tariff 5ppkwh (0.30am-04.30am) charging 40kwh Leaf over 15000 miles pa came out at £210 pa (I think that's based on 150 mile range didn't take into account range loss over winter or any other variables but would still be under £300 I'd expect). The Golf S appears that it would cost around £1400 pa on 15000 miles based on 1.20 ppl and on an average 58mpg. I think for diesel they're quoting 67mpg, so at £1.24 ppl = £1260.

So I could save about £1000 a year on fuel

airvent

Member
Does anyone know how much cold winter temperatures affect the battery? Lithium batteries dont like the cold and youd be running the heater which is presumably off the battery too, there being no waste heat from an engine to use.

The cold does affect the range but by not as much as you think. The Zoe has a small air source heat pump that uses the waste heat from the motor and batteries to heat the cabin. I think it produces 3kw of heat from 1kw of the battery power due to the consumption rate of the heat pump. On a cold start it does use a conventional electric heater though. If the car is plugged in at the time you can pre-heat it using mains supply to maintain the battery level. This also works direct from the battery if the level is high enough but obviously reduces the range a bit.

Purely from a hybrid owners POV:

airvent

Member
Does anyone know how much cold winter temperatures affect the battery? Lithium batteries dont like the cold and youd be running the heater which is presumably off the battery too, there being no waste heat from an engine to use.

I get 63-65mpg in the summer, 58-61 in winter.

Most of the reduction comes from heating the batteries up and keeping the aircon working. The aircon in my car comes direct from the electric so not engine derived.

Don't think that’s bad TBH

I think it produces 3kw of heat from 1kw

Like any heat pump the COP drops with temperature. In reality the Zoé heater struggles when the temperature drops below -5°C. You have to play with fan speed and temperature setting to get enough heat to keep the screen clear. I don't take my ski jacket off when I get in it.

Surely if it’s about saving money then leasing a couple of year old diesel car works out cheaper than any new electric car, tbh if money matters buying a few year old car works out cheapest. But I guess if you want new and you can live with an EV then that’s all that matters.
It just seems in the UK we are hooked on mpg and depreciation or monthly payments are never considered.

Dunno couchy. Met alot of people that will pay thousands just to not pay road tax.

They will pay even more to simply not have to not their car for 3 years.

But yes we focus on the recurring costs rather than the over all cost.

the hands-free-card-in-pocket system irritates.

Those bloody great Renault keys are a PITA! The ones supplied with the higher end cars like the Kadjar are too big to fit on a keychain, and don’t even have a fitting to do so, at least the Captur keys are thinner and have a slot for a keyring.

Met alot of people that will pay thousands just to not pay road tax.

#pedantalert - Road tax hasn’t existed since 1932! It’s a vehicle excise license. And zero VEL has, I believe, been discontinued because the government is losing revenue on zero emission vehicles - the same thing is now happening in America as well.

How do you reckon the carbon cost of the batteries and cost of e-drivetrain vs ICE drivetrain?

Mazda have gone with a smaller battery pack, saying it’s the best compromise:
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/12/31/mazda-mx-30-small-battery-short-range-decision/

Countzero to the sort of peoplenwjo pay thousands to avoid it it's road tax.. you and about 3 other people refer to it as VED .

Our Zoe is great. It was second hand and was the choice over a similar priced and sized ICE car. Free charging at mrs ots’s work. It’s the perfect runaround for us and makes economic sense over the comparable ice alternative.
But it’s not just about the finances for me.

@trailrat count me in with the pedants as precision is important (see also Brexit for what imprecise language can achieve).

If précises language is important to you you probably want to correct the errors in countzeros post....