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My daughter was caught driving in a bus lane in Aberdeen, got a £100 fine, £50 if paid quickly, Fair cop. Or is it?
The sign looks like this
She came in from the junction on the right so you cannot see the sign until you are already turning. There is not a "no right turn" warning prior to the junction. Also, the Highway code says the sign should have "ONLY" on it, like this:
So it looks to me like there may be grounds for appeal, but if we lose the appeal we also lose the early payment discount. Any thoughts?
This is the junction if it helps:
@57.1631932,-2.1019161,3a,49.7y,349.59h,84.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4o5jmuyisHF2R5F48kFFzw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D4o5jmuyisHF2R5F48kFFzw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D349.5933319196791%26pitch%3D5.510777468408847%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x48840e0fee2f4a35:0x6283cb63c1df91b6!8m2!3d57.163841!4d-2.101953!16s%2Fg%2F1tjt1hr4?coh=205410&entry=ttu">Street View
She came in from University Road and turned right into College Bounds. I feel a bit sorry for her as she is only 18 and this was her first big drive, headed up to Aberdeen by herself to move out of Halls.
Fair cop I'd say unfortunately. Very common in Cities and you've got to be really careful.
Surely you need to be able to see a sign though before you have committed to turning into a junction?
Appealing stops the clock on the early payment discount. Well, it did when I appealed my bus lane fine in Wembley, not that the fine was over-turned.
I went in a bus lane at a time when it was OK to do so, "except for event days'.
I didn't realise it was an event day, so....
I didn't get in anyone's way, didn't slow a bus down and only went into the lane for a few metres before it ended on the approach to a set of traffic lights. But hey ho. Computer says no. Pay the fine. No common sense or reasoning can be applied. Cha-ching.
My Mrs racked up 14 of these when they installed one outside her place of work.
She got them to agree to charge her for the first one, cancel the others, and she promised never to do it again.
They said they'd get back to us with a method of payment and they never did.
It was a rare case of being able to get a person on the phone to explain the situation. Luckily the person didn't actually giving a shit or do anything about it.
And link to Gov website - 'Only' is only on older signage...
Well from what I can see from StreetView the signs are perfectly visible before you are committed to turning right.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/wjbNkJCr59NdMceb7?g_st=ic
If you look at Street View, you can easily see the Bus Only signs from the give way line.
A blue road sign aims to give information to the driver and it has various functions depending on its shape. Blue circle road signs give a positive (compulsory) instruction to a driver
Fair cop I say.
Ohh, and the disabled bay has ‘Disabled’ spelt incorrectly.
Those spaces are reserved for dislexics
franksinatraFull Member
She came in from the junction on the right so you cannot see the sign until you are already turning
Unfortunately a very quick look on Street View says otherwise (as the others have now shown)
i live here , Your not alone . its a shitshow.
The local news sites are full of people in the same - appeals are thrown out almost immediately - unless you were on a motor bike - they were fining motorbikes
Same with LEZ - plenty of places where your committed before your informed of your commitment.
I guess both have had their desired effect - i just dont go to town unless hell has frozen over
*edit - those ones up at the uni have been there for donkeys 5 years - its the new bus gates and LEZ in the town centre thats a shitshow - i thought this was little belmont i was looking at .
Been over a decade since I worked in this field but it used to be the case that appeals would be successful if you didn't delay a legitimate user in the bus lane and didn't gain any advantage over other traffic by using the bus lane.
Left hand turn ahead sign, clear signs at point of giving way.
It's a fair cop from what I can see, maybe she needs a refresher on what the blue signs mean.
You'll definitely lose the appeal as that looks pretty clear.
You *may* end up paying the full amount (I appealed a parking fine recently, and they appeal result arrived just after I went on holiday for 3 weeks, so the 'discount' period had passed by the time I saw the letter).
The time you'll spend on it is probably worth more than £50
It doesn't help but there's a sort of curved section in the cobbles that someone somewhere probably thought would help someone turn left.
yeah you can easily see the sign from a fair way back, or even if you just stop at the junction. Inexperienced driver problem, unfortunately. Just chalk it up as a learning experience!Surely you need to be able to see a sign though before you have committed to turning into a junction?
Okay fair enough, all useful feedback.
They list 12 grounds on which you may make representation to appeal. Not one of those 12 allow for poor signage, poor visibility or incorrect application of regulations. So even if I did want to pursue appeal, it looks like they won't allow it on those grounds anyway.
The blue sign thing is interesting though, I always thought that was a positive thing, telling you what you could do, rather than what you could not do. Hence the reason I though it was necessary to have "only" under the sign to indicate other vehicle types can't use it. Looks like my daughter isn't the only one who needs to read up on her highway code!
Lesson learned for the young padawan. 😉
Tyne Tunnel anyone?
Our youngest whizzed through and was sure there were no signs about any toll 🙃🤣
As the car was still logged at our address,by the time we got notification(in the post) we got to pay full whack .
Kids ay 😊
appeals would be successful if you didn’t delay a legitimate user in the bus lane and didn’t gain any advantage over other traffic by using the bus lane.
Who's hearing appeals, Michael Massi?
The blue sign thing is interesting though, I always thought that was a positive thing, telling you what you could do, rather than what you could not do.
They are. You can turn left or buses and cycles are allowed.
Not one of those 12 allow for poor signage, poor visibility or incorrect application of regulations. So even if I did want to pursue appeal, it looks like they won’t allow it on those grounds anyway.
That and the small matter that none of things you list apply. 😁
The blue sign thing is interesting though, I always thought that was a positive thing, telling you what you could do, rather than what you could not do.
Blue circles are mandatory instructions. Your left turn arrow earlier on there isn't saying "turn left if you want."
I've always thought then to be bad design. If you didn't know what they meant - say you were a tourist - then it really isn't obvious. That and they're relatively infrequent means they're poorly understood.
Did I mention I used to work in that field? I worked for local authority in traffic management and got to hear the reasons why PCN had been overturned
Presumably that's just one council though? Is it not down to each individual council to enforce (or not) as they see fit?
They list 12 grounds on which you may make representation to appeal. Not one of those 12 allow for poor signage, poor visibility or incorrect application of regulations. So even if I did want to pursue appeal, it looks like they won’t allow it on those grounds anyway.
The first of the 12 reasons is "the contravention did not occur". If the signage was non compliant, you didn't contravene the regulation.
I think the signage could be better, but its probably not actually wrong enough that she would win the case.
I feel a bit sorry for her as she is only 18 and this was her first big drive, headed up to Aberdeen by herself to move out of Halls.
If you feel sorry for her, and think it was in part your fault for teaching her badly given this:
The blue sign thing is interesting though, I always thought that was a positive thing, telling you what you could do, rather than what you could not do. Hence the reason I though it was necessary to have “only” under the sign to indicate other vehicle types can’t use it. Looks like my daughter isn’t the only one who needs to read up on her highway code!
Then pay the fine for her! But she's trusted on the roads because she has passed two tests (theory and practical) to show she understands how to drive. Blue circles tell you things you MUST do. Must turn left. Must remain above 8mph in the clyde tunnel. Must be a bus or bike to go ahead. And thats not just on the road - you'll find them all around industry/construction etc: Must wear safety glasses; Must wear safety boots. etc. What is probably good news for her is there weren't red circles with "no right turn" or "no motorised vehicles (except busses)" - because those would (if caught by the police) be £100 + 3pts.
Looks like my daughter isn’t the only one who needs to read up on her highway code!
I didn't know either until I got pinged. I think they could be better somehow. But it's always been the rule.
Given that it's a fine and not points, I'd put this down as a learning experience.
She came in from the junction on the right so you cannot see the sign until you are already turning.
No different to turning into a one-way street though is it? Fair cop.
Tell your daughter to watch out for that woman in the white top too, she might knock her down 😀
Suck it up, only time i've ever had a fine was for a bus lane in Bristol city centre, where they were doing extensive roadworks around an area i was in, setting lights up and taking them down, i got funnelled into a bus lane, bus behind me, you can guess the rest, 10 seconds in a bus lane and 60 quid fine, fighting it is just pointless, take the hit and as others say, it's not points, so not a huge problem.
she drove down there “loads of times”.
So either,
a) she didn't see the signs,
b) she didn't understand the signs,
or c) she didn't care about the signs.
None of those scenarios are particularly great. At 18 you're far from a perfect driver, as the tired old trope goes "once you've passed your test is when you start learning to drive." She's going to make mistakes, I still do and I've been driving since 1990. Hopefully she'll learn from them.
I still do and I’ve been driving since 1990
You can't admit to that! Not here on perfectdrivertrackworld.com!
@imnotverygood When I was at Uni the comms team successfully put up a dyslexia awareness poster… with dyslexia spelled 'dylsexia'. They also put up one with 'dates for your dairy'
You can’t admit to that! Not here on perfectdrivertrackworld.com!
🤣
I know. Fact is, people are human. I consider myself to be a half-decent driver (as does everyone, I expect) but I still occasionally go "yep, ****ed that one up, totally my fault" and try to learn from that so as not to do it again.
During the floods last October my wife got two bus lane fines on the trot. She had to drive through a Derby suburb she wasn't familiar with and this particular road was a bus lane from 7am to 9am (to stop it being used as a rat-run).
My daughter mercilessly took the piss - then the day after my daughter received a fine for overstaying her time in a Spoons car park! 🤣
Me? I'm in the perfectdrivertrackworld.com club! 🙂
“ I know. Fact is, people are human. I consider myself to be a half-decent driver (as does everyone, I expect) but I still occasionally go “yep, ****ed that one up, totally my fault” and try to learn from that so as not to do it again”
Yep, 30-50 k miles per year for the last 30 years, clean licence etc.
Plenty of mistakes, Rotherhithe tunnel both ways in a van. That’ll be 2x£60 or whatever.
Buslane at the wrong time, more than once.
Years of reversing a Transit Custom onto my drive whilst folding the mirrors in at the last second, no problem.
Today in a smaller vehicle with miles to spare I hit the gatepost with a mirror.
"Did I mention I used to work in that field? I worked for local authority in traffic management and got to hear the reasons why PCN had been overturned
Presumably that’s just one council though? Is it not down to each individual council to enforce (or not) as they see fit?"
No, I'm referring to the independent arbitration. First appeal is with the local authority and will always fail. It's not really an appeal unless you take it all the way to independent arbitration.
And the local authority I worked for were the pioneers of finding car drivers to generate revenue for the council to keep.
The ones by the train station have caught a few folk out as the follow their sat nav only to find the road empty and a few moments the click and the swearing starts.
I think I read a few weeks back they were looking to decide if they were going to keep the or not. This I assume will be dependent on how profitable they are