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Some folk like to offend, and some folk like to be offended.
And neither should be encouraged, supported, or otherwise pandered to.
So you are religious
Nope., not in the slightest, but I am at least willing to read the works of the folks who intellectually understood and learned from religion when writing and composing their own philosophy, science, secularism, and politics
stupidly burning books and making jokes and laughing at religion is going to wind people up. Enough so they’ll try and kill you for it – and they get so violently wound up because such action is effective
Effective at what?
But doesn’t mean we have to put up with people that are saying (or doing) something purely to offend, as is probably the case in the burning case
Well, what specifically do you think not putting up with it means? Do you mean calling offensive people arseholes? Seems fair.
Or do you mean putting them in prison? How offensive does something have to be before you won't put up with it? Can I call you bignose? Can I call Hitchens a fat drunk boomer waste of newsprint? Can I call Martin Luther a medieval dimwit?
Since someone mentioned burning the US flag, I always like to point out the relevant section of the US flag code:
“When a U.S. flag is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, it should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.”
Anyone mentioned the KLF yet? I think they burned a million rectangles of paper, that's like over one thousand Quarans!
Anyone mentioned the KLF yet? I think they burned a million rectangles of paper, that’s like over one thousand Quarans!
I'll forgive them due to this classic.
It's not for you or I to say what value or meaning the book should have. A muslim can tell you, and that's the answer.
Islam is a recruitment tool for hate.
Islam is distorted and used to recruit people, as is Christianity, nationalism, the left and right of politics and so on. Every movement has it's lunatic fringe and people are full of anger are easily manipulated.
And people who use the term Free Speech Absolutists are actually pro-censorship and are either lying to themselves or others that they believe in free speech.
No, they just understand what the term means. What you're describing isn't freedom of speech, it's anarchy.
You cannot avoid the pitfalls that Hitchens very clearly articulates without actual, real freedom.
Do you have an original thought in your head or are you just going to go "yes but Hitchens, here's the video again, 17th time is a charm" in every post you make? You sound like an ass and you're doing exactly what you accuse religious types of doing which is parroting someone else's teachings.
(Exercising my free speech just there.)
why religious pressure groups are conflating “islamophobia” with spurious racial connotations
Do you know a lot of white Muslims?
So you are religious, and you are threatened by free speech and that’s why you fall on the side of restricting what people are allowed to hear.
"Allowed" is a weird choice of word there. Is that what you meant to say?
People are allowed to say a lot of things. They're allowed to say a lot of things which others may not like. Hell, this thread exists.
But they're also likely to get a kick in the bollocks for it if they're being deliberately provocative. Which as someone else once said, well, seeing as you have an erection for YouTube videos here's one from another sage:
I'm playing catchup, I'll get to the rest in a bit assuming that a) the thread is still open and b) you haven't proven your own assertion at the top of this post to be correct.
Do you know a lot of white Muslims?
(... addendum: come to that, do you know any?)
@cougar:
(… addendum: come to that, do you know any?)
Personally? The wife of the owner of the curry house in Betws.
Oh, and being topical, Sinead O'Connor, sorry Shudhada Sadaquat.
(And plenty when I lived in Bradford).
But if you are the sort of person who can make a causal relationship rather than simply an associative one between the colour of someone's skin and the fraudulent belief system that they subscribe to then you're right on the bottom of this scale regarding this, unfortunately.
So you know one white Muslim indirectly and you've heard of another. Well I'm convinced, that's the notion that Islamophobia and racism are inextricably linked well and truly torpedoed.
Do you suppose that ad hominem snipes about people's competence strengthen your position or weaken it?
Does being obviously wrong all day strengthen yours?
Nah, I'm used to it, my partner reminds me on a daily basis.
But y'know, feel free to explain why you think I'm wrong. Ideally out of your own head rather than using YouTube and memes.
But they’re also likely to get a kick in the bollocks for it if they’re being deliberately provocative.
So what? Plenty of men are likely to get kicks in bollocks for lots of things in certain places - being gay, eating cows, being a Prod...and that's not even considering violence against women.
All your macho "try that in a small town" posturing does is bring things down to the level of people that go around looking for excuses to inflict violence on people. That's the lowest common denominator and I couldn't give a shit what they think about fundamental freedoms.
I looked it up. (You should try this, it's part of how we learn things.)
There's just shy of two billion Muslims in the world. The number who are... not even necessarily white but "not brown" is as far as I can ascertain estimated at about 1.5 million which is a fraction of a percentage of the total.
Closer to home, Wikipedia: "According to the latest 2021 United Kingdom census, 3,801,186 Muslims live in England, or 6.7% of the population." Out of that lot, less than 6% are white, and of those <6% over half of them are Other White.
Tell us again how Islamophobia isn't race-related? Spend a lot of time hanging out with that curry house owner and his wife, do you?
All your macho “try that in a small town”
That wasn't me, unless you're proffering that Tennessee is a small town (and if so it misses the point which was that, rightly or wrongly, different cultures have different ideas about what is acceptable).
The number who are… not even necessarily white but “not brown” is as far as I can ascertain estimated at about 1.5 million which is a fraction of a percentage of the total.
Christ. I'm tempted to ask where "white people" turn into "brown people" for you, but I suspect you've got a map cross-referenced with phrenological charts like some kind of Victorian gentleman scientist.
Unless you’ve been living under a rock for the past 100 years, you know exactly what’s going to happen if you burn that book.
It’s a display of shithousery that is underlined and in bold.
Absolutely. The nearest I get to a belief system is Pantheistic Humanism, with a touch of the Stoics thrown in. I have no problem with what others believe, just so long as they don’t try to force their ideology on me or those closest to me. Discovering a faith or a belief for oneself due to circumstances beyond their control I’m absolutely fine with - my recent experiences could easily have had me questioning a lot of things about myself and what I believe, but it hasn’t.
Destroying anything that is of value to many people to reinforce a particular ideology or political view, or both together, is a complete dick move, and is, to my way of thinking, immoral. Burning copies of the Q’ran is no different to burning Bibles, destroying Buddhist statues and other sacred sites In Afghanistan and other countries, destroying musical instruments and other means of making music, as the Taliban are currently doing, stripping libraries of books as the Fascist Right are doing in America right now are the acts of minority authoritarians and totalitarians imposing their views on everyone else by force, just like a totalitarian, authoritarian nationalist government is doing in Ukraine, and would desperately like to do to the rest of Eastern Europe and the Balkans.
Christ. I’m tempted to ask where “white people” turn into “brown people” for you, but I suspect you’ve got a map cross-referenced with phrenological charts like some kind of Victorian gentleman scientist.
Let me get my notes, I think I've got something about builder's tea here somewhere... 😁
I'm paraphrasing Wikipedia, I'd never heard of terms like "other white" previously. I don't think I provided the link but it's not hard to find with a good several seconds of googling.
It is of course a scale. I have a good friend of mixed race parentage who describes himself as "half rice half chips" which isn't a description I'd ever have dreamed to use had it not come from his own mouth. He thinks it's funny, I'm in no position to argue either way.
It's not really relevant in any case though, it's just misdirection. The point in its entirety is that the vast majority of Muslims (globally and I've shown my working) tend to be of a more swarthy complexion and thus arguing that Islamophobia is unrelated to racism is blatantly nonsense. They're two cheeks of the same EDL arse.
... As someone who seemingly lived in Bradford for a spell should be very well aware of this unless it was another Bradford in Surrey or something.
nickc
Without religion you have to ignore the spiritual origin of our own thoroughly liberal Unitarianism.
You can say the same for all the bad things it brought ...
To look at it differently we could thank war for the jet engine (just one random thing of a long list) but this totally misses the point that we would have probably got to the same place anyway and it might not have been such a good idea in terms of climate change anyway..
If we only looked at the "good things" (defined through a lens of "our own thoroughly liberal Unitarianism") the vast majority of these are anachronistic and what might have been "progress" at the time isn't necessarily today and they have been intertwined with the bad things BUT most importantly for today based on what we know beyond any reasonable doubt are lies based on some vengeful alien being(s) with super powers to punish us if we don't do as some group of people have determined is what this mysterious being wants.
Cougar
The point in its entirety is that the vast majority of Muslims (globally and I’ve shown my working) tend to be of a more swarthy complexion and thus arguing that Islamophobia is unrelated to racism is blatantly nonsense. They’re two cheeks of the same EDL arse.
You are so so far out globally... a quick look at best part of 1.5 billion people...
and the "swarthiest" get swarthier away from the North.
What underlies racsism is the normal homo sapien tribalism and xenophobia and "how different" someone else is in a myriad ways. Obviously skin colour is a easy spot... but most white "christians" (lower case) don't want a scientology temple and its adherents either... a fairly large percentage of white "Christians" (upper case) would far prefer some black afrocaribean christians
and you can look from the other side at many Arab dominated Islamic nations where being a white "christian" is far far more preferable in most circumstances to being a black or asian muslim. (something I have I not only personally experienced on many occasions but has been explained to me by muslims)
The (or certainly one of) major factor(s) in all this "difference" that manifests itself as racism is religion and to some extent the lower case semi-adherents who don't REALLY believe in the supernatural side but (and this is not a pop at nickc) see their agnostic value system threated by weird (to them) culture and fanatical (to them) adherence to supernatural philosophy.
That's not saying racism doesn't exist, it does of course but the hijacking of race is often facilitated by religion.
"It’s not for you or I to say what value or meaning the book should have. A muslim can tell you, and that’s the answer."
Ok so I'll give this a go. I'd just like to start off by saying that although I identify as 'Muslim', I'm not actually religious at all, and my identity is more about my cultural heritage and the history behind that, than anything else. Much like how my wife is Jewish; it's more about our own sense of pride in who we are as individuals on this Earth. I'd say were agnostic at best, and both share a love of bacon. I mean, how can bacon be forbidden, right? But I digress...
Does someone burning a Quran/Koran offend me? Not int he slightest. I just feel sorry for them; sorry that they're so insecure and messed up that they find some sort of pleasure in doing something they think will upset someone else. The xenophobia that drives such acts is of far greater concern; it's essentially the same twisted hatred and fear that is behind any kind of prejudice; anti-Semitism, sexism, homophobia, anything like that. I won't speak for all Muslims, but I would imagine that the vast majority of Muslims worldwide just see such book-burning with a weariness that's ingrained in us through decades of having to endure shit thrown at us by idiots. And most of us, I'm sure, will just thinking ' oh no, now the zealots will be enraged again'. And sure enough, some fundamentalist nutcase will do something equally as stupid. Like night following day. And the rest of us just shrug and go about our daily lives.
As for those advocating' free speech'; sure, of course we should encourage openness and debate. One of my major issues with how Islam is practiced is that it is so utterly unalterable to reflect changing times and sensibilities. Why can't I eat bacon? We have refrigeration nowadays, and the whole hygiene thing is no longer really valid. But hey; I don't make the rules. Which is why I choose not to let them rule me. The Islam I love is the Islam that has brought us amazing architecture, the concept of universal education, lots of mathematics stuff, including algorithms. Hmm, algorithms. I'm not a fan of the extreme 'interpretations' by those seeking to exert control over others, particularly women. If you want to know what angers me as a Muslim, it's seeing women wearing Niqabs. Burkhas I don't mind so much, although I'm not a fan. But the notion that any women should feel she needs to hide her entire face from men, that's just really messed up. Wrong, wrong, wrong. But you see; that 'freedom of speech' would get me killed in some places. By my fellow 'Muslims'. I would of course actively avoid going to places where such rules are strictly imposed. I wonder how Jordan Henderson's wife is going to feel when she realises she has to cover up in public?
Freedom of speech is something that is valued very highly by many Muslims. Anyone with even vaguely progressive views will agree that the treatment of women and homosexuals in places like Saudi, Iran etc is absolutely abhorrent and vile. You want me to get worked up over some dickhead burning a book, when there's that shit going on? Where people cannot speak out for themsleves, because of fascistic regimes run by twisted ****s?
But back to that thing of being free to offend others; that's the tricky bit. I accept my own views are going to be 'offensive' to some. I try to think carefully about having respect for others, even if we don't share the same views. But then, I expect the same level of respect in response. I don't see burning Qurans as respectful in the same way I don't see spraying swastikas on Jewish graves is. There's no 'harm' done (to any living individuals), perhaps, but it's still a horrible thing to do.
I do find it amusing however, that Islamophobes use computers to share their hateful bile. Ah, those pesky algorithms...
^ I hope what I wrote before wasn't read as me thinking all Muslims would have the same answer, like being offended by a book burning was how it had to be. I see it as, if you say it offends you then I accept that - you have something invested in it to some extent, I don't.
Dear me @cougar. It's been spelled out very clearly for you already, but I'll try again (posting against my better judgement here, but you know, gotta try to help):
Islam <> Muslim
Islam = an idea (a really fekking dumb, fraudulent and dangerous one)
Muslim = a person who follows that idea (because in the majority of the countries they live in, even if they can beat the state-sponsored indoctrination it's too dangerous not too)
Muslims are predominantly brown, yes. But they don't follow islam BECAUSE they're brown. It just happens to be that islam is a predominant religion in many of the hotter parts of the world.
That's like saying christians are christians BECAUSE they're white.
Islamophobia is deliberately being conflated with some sort of race issue by people who are trying to protect the idea from criticism - in the same way that the state of israel very succesfully conflates criticism of their state with antisemitism. << You have, unfortunately, fallen for this.
This is incredibly dangerous bull and needs to be met head-on. It's absolutely 100% fine to not just criticise islam, to ridicule any religion or any idea (for that matter) but also to hate those ideas.
It doesn't mean we're going to stoke the fires and gas and/or burn muslims - many of whom I count as very dear friends. But their religion is dangerous bull. And it's by virtue that most of my muslim friends live in blighty that my head is still attached to my neck - because if I went to many parts of the world and expressed my opinion that islam is just another fraud then there'd be queues of people (including governments) that would be happy to detatch it.
That is why it's important to demonstratively oppose islam, and all the bullshit religions, in the countries we can do.
"Islam = an idea (a really fekking dumb, fraudulent and dangerous one)"
As I said earlier:
I do find it amusing however, that Islamophobes use computers to share their hateful bile. Ah, those pesky algorithms…
if you become attached to an idea, then follow that, instead of being aware of what's around you, then you are neurotic.
Why would people support your neurosis, why encourage you to live in a dreamworld?
We're all in this world together, we're not really here to build an escape/dream world for every idea, surely there's more to life than that
Dear me @cougar.
Dear me yourself. Could you be any more condescending?
Muslims are predominantly brown, yes. But they don’t follow islam BECAUSE they’re brown.
The first sentence there was my point, the second a straw man you've just made up. Most of the rest is your fingers flailing up and down for reasons best known to yourself.
That’s like saying christians are christians BECAUSE they’re white.
Umm... you do know where Christianity originated, right? Jesus Christ wasn't from the Scottish Highlands, as compelling an idea as that may be.
Jesus McChrist, yesterday.
Islamophobia is deliberately being conflated with some sort of race issue by people who are trying to protect the idea from criticism
No, this is your agenda showing. You're trying to justify your Islamophobia by distancing it from racism. No-one is preventing you from criticising Islam - look, you're doing it right now - but suggesting that on the whole that view is unrelated to race issues is a fool's errand.
Look at all the brown faces in this very famous video here:
Do your very dear Muslim friends know your opinions about their religion? Have you told them you think their faith is "really fekking dumb, fraudulent and dangerous"? To their faces? And they still consider you to be a very dear friend? I'd put it to you sir that either your notion of friendship is shaky or their notion of religion is.
Or, well,
And most of us, I’m sure, will just thinking ‘ oh no, now the zealots will be enraged again’. And sure enough, some fundamentalist nutcase will do something equally as stupid. Like night following day. And the rest of us just shrug and go about our daily lives.
I think this is a really great point.
A sentence I've typed many times on here and elsewhere now, "with any demographic it's a vocal minority who give the rest a bad name."
Plenty of bad things have been done in the name of various religions over the years including as you say,
But you see; that ‘freedom of speech’ would get me killed in some places. By my fellow ‘Muslims’.
But they are atypical. Or at least, atypical in the western world. I've had some interesting conversations with my own very dear Muslim friends.
I spent most of my life in a town with a large Asian population, largely of ****stani descent but others too. In my neighbourhood the whites were the minority. The Islam that I know - and I'll hold my hand up, I know it very poorly - comes from those people. They told me of the love it teaches, how their various festivals compel them to do selfless acts. (Of course, it's not really selfless because it comes with the carrot and stick prevalent in many religions, do good in this life and you'll be rewarded in the next.) But the practical outcome was that I had great neighbours.
A random example. I was gardening one day, the beardy bloke next door but one asked if I needed help. I politely declined, he wouldn't take no for an answer, summoned his two sons (late teens / early 20s maybe?) out of the house and told them to muck in. And bugger me did they graft, I couldn't keep up. And not so much as a muff of a complaint. This was the teachings of their Islam, not suicide bombers that Garage and his assholes would have you believe, but just looking out for your neighbours regardless of how pasty-faced they may be.
There will always be extremists. Clue's in the name. Islam can be problematic in its self-perpetuating nature as @brownperson alluded to above (which is probably another post) but most of its followers - in my limited direct experience - just want to be good people rather than blow up infidels.
Where's that quality burning pyriamid gif again?
You know that thing where when someone has run out of argument they disengage and change the subject?
There's a meme about that as well, it involves chess and pigeons.