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Let me state for the record - I am not religious, I have no faith, at all.
My question: why does the Muslim faith conflate the content of the Quran with the physical 'presence' of a single copy?
I don't THINK Christians would get so upset if you set fire to a copy of The Bible but Muslims take setting fire to a copy of The Quran as an act of religious hatred. Surely the copy that you burn is just that - a copy.
Burning it doesn't destroy the content (it's unlikely to be the very last copy) but just that copy.
Yet across the Muslim world Governments are summoning Ambassadors and expelling Senior Diplomats to demonstrate their anger because some ne'er do-well has set fire to a book.
I imagine if you were to burn a bible in the bible belt you may well get shot....
Its disrespectful, provoking and ultimately completely and utterly unnecessary
There are nut jobs and nasty people in all religions just waiting for an excuse to justify violence.
Free speech shouldn't override common sense and decency
In summary - bloody stupid idea
<p style="text-align: right;">Hobnobs?</p>
Muslims take setting fire to a copy of The Quran as an act of religious hatred.
If you were caught placing a pig's head on a Jewish grave you would likely be charged with a hate crime.
Muslims have as much right to be protected from hate crimes as anyone else. In my opinion.
Bible burning does bring the same reaction to a sector of Christianity, quite a few "christian" countries have blasphemy laws. See also the outrage flag burning brings out in "patriots".
IMO it is mainly just dead cat politics to distract from real problems.
However those who do burn the quaran are also playing the same game, it is about creating symbolic division and othering a group in society rather than drawing attention to the genuine problems.
Burning it doesn’t destroy the content
For Muslims, the Quran is the literal word of God, so that's what you're burning. It hasn't changed since 600AD (unlike the Bible) and is handed down generation to generation, since they believe that it was dictated to Mohammed by God, it's pretty offensive then to desecrate it.
I'm no fan of religion but burning Qurans/bibles is obviously going to be offensive and cause a reaction. And I can guess the kind of folk who do it...
Kind of like walking into a Rangers pub in Celtic kit and insulting them. Only going to go one way.
If someone was to travel to Utter Pradesh right now and burn a copy of the Hindu Vedas + kill a cow openly on the street you'd see yourself lynched. Different faith but same response.
Because to do so is blatant breach of Rule #1
I guess it's more a symbolic thing..
If someone burns a book or a flag or whatever, it dosen't matter.
I guess in history, the destruction of records was a thing, but good luck with that, we now have SSDs and cloud backups.
Ahh crap, I've just noticed the fallacy in that.
Let's go back to cave painting.
Kind of like walking into a Rangers pub in Celtic kit and insulting them. Only going to go one way.
Lolz
look at the reaction to O'Conner tearing up a picture of the pope or US reaction to flag burning
It really doesn't matter if the reaction to burning someones holy book is absurd. You know the reaction it will get and thats why these folk are doing it.
Free speech obviously has limits.
For Muslims, the Quran is the literal word of God, so that’s what you’re burning.
It's just fantasy though... I'd hapily burn a Quran and a Bible to get my BBQ going if it came to it.. I'd even place a union flag, and a wodden crucificx.
And a manchester united football shirt.
It’s just fantasy though… I’d happily burn a Quran and a Bible to get my BBQ going if it came to it..
would you let said interested parties know beforehand and where would you move to - remember Salman Rushdie and that was way milder than burning.
would you let said interested parties know beforehand and where would you move to – remember Salman Rushdie and that was way milder than burning.
I wouldn't make a show of it, if I need kindling, Fuel is fuel.
Totems innit? They come in all shapes, sizes, forms and guises and we attach a huge amount of meaning from them. Make sense the strong emotional reaction they draw when mistreated.
Some spanker US soldiers burned a bin bag full of Qur'an's (given to detainees) in 2012 and a shit storm ensued.
Rule one innit. But some people enjoy being dicks.
The motivation isn't genuine protest, it's simply to get a reaction so they can point at that and act the victim. And often it isn't even that, but something far murkier.
Even if they're not shilling for someone else's agenda, doing it from the relative safety of Stockholm is the equivalent of the 'Bus ****ers' scene in Inbetweeners. They're expecting it to be consequence-free.
Its not the act that is the issue, its the reaction that will enevitably follow caused by the burning. The religous over reacting isnt acceptable either but rule no one applies as the main reason for burning the book of stories is to deliberately provoke an unacceptable response.
Take the religious icon bit out of it and its about disrespecting a fellow human being
Doesnt matter if I believe in sacred worms, if you burn my book about sacred worms you clearly do not respect me. At least have a conversation with me about sacred worms, and try and understand my view on sacred worms.
But the world unfortunately doesn't appear to be built around respect for other people. (especially sacred worms)
Its disrespectful, provoking and ultimately completely and utterly unnecessary
Agree very strongly with the with the first two, not with the last.
Free speech shouldn’t override common sense and decency
The keepers of the keys of orthodoxy repressed free speech for the best part of 2000 years, subjugating a continent, ensuring women were kept in their place (and responsible for the despicable concept of 'original sin') and enforcing their will through the use of genuine horrors against people who exercised speech that very clearly wasn't free.
So if you burn a bible, or a Quran, you're exercising your freedom of expression to belittle the belief systems that these disgusting texts represent. Or maybe you're just being a provocative dick. Whatever the reason - it doesn't matter - because freedoms that aren't exercised become taboos again. And if criticising and ridiculing religion (specifically ridicule, because it's the most effective form of criticism) becomes taboo then we could very easily go backwards towards the horrors of the past. And, frankly, the horrors of the present and the continued atrocities which these pre-medieval religious doctines prove such fertile ground for fermenting.
So, should you so desire, burn your book - be it Quran or Bible - and if a religious person's response to that is to try to actually kill you (or stab your eyes out) after you do that - which doesn't harm them but simply says "I don't like what you believe" - then that shows what they are, more than what you are.
At least have a conversation with me about sacred worms, and try and understand my view on sacred worms.
You're entitled to your views, you have no right to expect others to respect them when they are clearly wrong and objectionable. That way lies anti vaxxers and 5G conspiracies.
The point of the action here is simply to elicit an 'unreasonably angry' response, in order to gather more support for a wider anti-Muslim agenda. Or some other nefarious purpose, as highlighted above.
It's being dressed up as simple freedom of expression, or an attack on the concept of religion, when the actual motivation is about fostering division, discrimination and the othering of a wider community that is uninvolved in the angry response. It is a recruitment tool for hate.
The point of the action here is simply to elicit an ‘unreasonably angry’ response, in order to gather more support for a wider anti-Muslim agenda. Or some other nefarious purpose, as highlighted above.
It's an easy win if you're that way inclined.
Unless you've been living under a rock for the past 100 years, you know exactly what's going to happen if you burn that book.
It's a display of shithousery that is underlined and in bold.
It’s just fantasy though
Its just fantasy to you (and me). That does not mean other people do not believe it. Some people believe in heaven, I don't but I'm not going to be a dick about it. I guess the difference is between something physical like a city (Jerusalem) or book (Quran) and a belief. You can do physical things to objects like burn them, you can't to beliefs.
To make it easy for you - here's a copy of the video that gets right to the religious point.
You’re entitled to your views, you have no right to expect others to respect them when they are clearly wrong and objectionable. That way lies anti vaxxers and 5G conspiracies.
Maybe my wording is incorrect. It is wrong to say 'I am right, they are wrong, burn the book' without having a conversation to try and understand their position and reach a understanding/compromise on both sides. Burning the book doesnt help the situation, just states you have no wish to understand or try to engage
That is not to say beliefs should not be challenge and questioned. I'm prepared to accept some people have lets call it 'faith'. I don't and I want to be able to freely challenge them and sometimes mock them in the same way they can challenge and mock me for my lack of faith.
However what really gets me is when people feel the need to kill and harm others because they don't share the same faith. Even more confusing for me is a number of these groups actually have the same faith with slight variations. I try to understand but it gets to the point where I think people just want to argue (bit like on here!)
🙂
It is a recruitment tool for hate
Islam is a recruitment tool for hate. Along with the other religions, but right now it's the best funded.
Anyone going to interact with Hitchins? Or are they more interested in repeating their own opinion to themselves?
Yes, its' a dick move to burn a book. But it's the right dick move.
Maybe I need to pitch it more Team America World Police? I don't agree with it 100% (watch Hitchens for intelligence) - but you know, it's funny at least.
Islam is a recruitment tool for hate. Along with the other religions, but right now it’s the best funded.
Are you making the case that the best, most proactive, way to combat that is by deliberately antagonising people?
Are you making the case that the best, most proactive, way to combat that is by deliberately antagonising people?
No, I explicitly said the best, most proactive way to combat that is by ridiculing people. But it's certainly part of the toolbox.
Did you watch Hitchens?
Want to articulate any objections to what he said? He's said everything I think about it, better than I can. If you really want to engage with the argument, he's probably the best starting point I can think of.
Christopher Hitchens presents some pretty compelling arguments against organised religion. And no-one should receive death threats for making them.
Sadly, these kind of arguments are often used as the acceptable face of far more unsavoury agendas. Sure, islamophobia is not literally an ethnic thing, but, in the real world, and certainly where I live, it is aimed exclusively at specific south Asian communities, and many of those who respond to islamophobic rallying calls are not following the nuances of Oxford Union debates or carefully considering distinctions between race and religion.
We need to separate the real-world motives of some of those who burn the Qu'ran, or those who weaponise the inevitable reaction.
Sadly, these kind of arguments are often used as the acceptable face of far more unsavoury agendas
And these kind of arguments are used as justification to control speech, enact laws, and bring about exactly the type of world that Hitchens is raging against.
They're weak, and they're always founded on "other people are bad and can 'abuse' free speech, mmkay - so we need to control it".
Get. In. The. Ground.
most proactive way to combat that is by ridiculing people.
I used to think like that; then my views matured a bit.
I think you'll find the most proactive way to make yourself feel better (even a bit superior) is by ridiculing people. But no one in history changed their heart held beliefs (normally based on a generational family connection, so lots of emotional entanglement) because they got ridiculed. That normally happens when they are listened to in a non judgy way and get to observe a life being well lived by someone they respect with a different perspective, modelling that a good life without religion is possible. The ridiculer just helps validate for them that everyone outside their 'gang' are knobs.
Get. In. The. Ground
This seems like a disproportionately angry response to a perfectly civilised discussion. You OK?
Tony Blair V's Christopher Hitchens..
It's an old one but a good one.
Get. In. The. Ground.
Enforce your view against the perils of religious constraint by acting in precisely the same way that the ultra religious would. Seems legit.
In the meantime the rest of us will get on with our neighbours by not breaking rule#1
Some folk like to offend, and some folk like to be offended.
Rasmus Paludan did a book burning in the town I live in. I actually drove past while they were doing it.
It was only here because his permit for Göteborg was withdrawn at the last minute. Hundreds of people on both sides gathering etc etc.
Because they didn't have enough time to advertise or gather their fans, no one showed up. It was Rasmus, half a dozen lackeys/security, 20-30 locals (of all colours/faiths/political alignments), mostly just heckling and jeering. About half a dozen police and a reporter from the local paper.
That was it, done in 20 minutes.
Complete damp squib. Barely even made the national news. There was more coverage of the withdrawn permit being an infringement of the right to free speech than there was of the "protest" in town.
Though, as is the norm, I'm pretty sure that certain sections of the press reported it as a mass riot where the savages attacked the honest upstanding defender of our rights to break rule 1.
It happens. A lot.
Some folk like to offend, and some folk like to be offended.
/end thread
Did you watch Hitchens
Watching vids while at work is tricky, so no.
I'm not in favour of religion in general, but equally;
- I don't believe ridiculing people is a good way to get them to rethink what they do, it will entrench them if anything
- I don't believe that burning a symbol that someone treasures is a form of ridicule
- I also don't believe that people upset at the burning of a symbol should react in the way that the often do, but deliberately provoking that reaction doesn't seem the best way to prevent it
To me its no different to burning any other story book, be it the bible, Lord of the Ring or Harry Potter.
To me its no different to burning any other story book, be it the bible, Lord of the Ring or Harry Potter.
Really? You know here in the heathen STW world you're amongst friends - you don't need to prove your atheist leanings. But really don't see any difference between burning Potter and the Quran?
How often do you think you might feel the urge for burn a book about the lightning foreheaded little dude? I mean, recycling centres are available......
I think we both appreciate that burning books in public places is about getting a rise out of others, rather than clearing the shelves. Any Tolkien and Rowling fans don't get quite so wound up so it does not happen too often.
I'm not a religious person but respect people who are, but I do struggle to comprehend the reverence religions have to a book, buildings or icons etc.
I had this conversation with a Muslim colleague about this, our discussion revolved around iconology and how a loosely copied and modified book holds such reverence. Beliefs in my mind are in you heart and mind, if that's the case why get so upset with a burning of a book that will have almost certainly have been misinterpreted, miss translated and mass printed. I put it too him that way and he agreed with me, to a certain extent!
It's an issue that many people have a shit life and need something to believe in, which opens them up radicalisation. Doesn't matter what you believe in, someone will be manipulating it somehow.
if that’s the case why get so upset with a burning of a book
Can we also remind ourselves that as well as taking offense at books being burned, the sorts of folks who want to burn books are often 1. v keen on burning other books, not always religious, that wait for it...offend them and 2. have always turned out to be tolerant, free thinking and welcoming themselves. [/sarcasm]
'Free speech absolutists' tend to be mostly interested in their own consequence-free free speech, for some reason.
Doesnt matter if I believe in sacred worms, if you burn my book about sacred worms you clearly do not respect me. At least have a conversation with me about sacred worms, and try and understand my view on sacred worms.
Turn that around though. Say I think your worm theory is daft. Why should your idea implicitly command respect? Why should anyone else waste their time listening to Annelid's Witnesses blabbing on uninvited?
Moreover, we're now in a situation where we have two people who have conflicting opinions, why should "worm" trump "non-worm" just because you've written the word 'sacred' in front of it? Do you think you're better than I am? No wonder people go around burning your books.
It's a ridiculous argument of course, but this is what gets some people's backs up. Religious belief is a protected characteristic, which simplistically means you you can't be prejudiced against someone because of it (eg, you'd be in trouble if you asked someone about their faith in a job interview unless it was directly relevant to the job). But that shouldn't mean it affords special privilege. Your faith might be the most important thing in the world to you but, well, so what? There are a couple of posters here who clearly feel equally strongly about their rejection of faith.
Burning the book doesnt help the situation, just states you have no wish to understand or try to engage
It doesn't though, does it. It actively rejects what (they believe) the book symbolises. It's an overt act of aggression and, given the typical demographic of someone who might own such a book, probably racism.
I wouldn't burn your worm book out of respect for Big Worm. Rather, I wouldn't burn your worm book because you like it and I'm not an asshole. Well, usually.
‘Free speech absolutists’ tend to be mostly interested in their own consequence-free free speech, for some reason.
They're also often fairly shocked to find that everyone else has the same rights they do. It happens on here quite a lot. "You can't say [thing] any more!" Sure you can, but everyone else can call you a nob for saying it.
Remember when the Nazi's burned all them books?
Remember when all those disco records (or more accurately, any record by a black artist) were blown up at a baseball stadium back in the 70's?
Destroying other peoples s in a public setting sends out a pretty hateful message,
F around > find out, (as per morecash's example).
I don’t THINK Christians would get so upset if you set fire to a copy of The Bible but Muslims take setting fire to a copy of The Quran as an act of religious hatred. Surely the copy that you burn is just that – a copy.
Some Christians (particularly those who take their religion very seriously and have the strongest views about the bible) absolutely would be offended. I suspect if you make a public show of burning a bible that even a lot of Christians who haven't opened a bible all year are going to be offended; and nobody should be surprised at that as clearly publically burning a religious book is done to antagonise people. I'm sure there are plenty of less "serious" Muslims who simply shake their head and think "what a prick" when someone burns the Quoran. I'm definitely not religious and even I am doing that!
I'm struggling to see why even the most militant atheist would not recognise that burning a holy book is symbolic and intended to be offensive just like burning a flag, and bound to elicit a response - after all if that was not the intent it seems like a fairly odd choice of thing to do.
It’s just fantasy though… I’d hapily burn a Quran and a Bible to get my BBQ going if it came to it.. I’d even place a union flag, and a wodden crucificx.
And a manchester united football shirt.
Even if you had people round who might be offended by any of that stuff? Yes I know there are people who are "professional offence finders" seeking to take offence where none is implied or intended but these "protesters" in Sweden and Denmark are actively seeking to give offence.
Yes, burning bibles and qurans is breaking rule #1. Good luck changing people's minds or softening their opinion of other groups if you've that going on in the background.
It hasn’t changed since 600AD (unlike the Bible) and is handed down generation to generation, since they believe that it was dictated to Mohammed by God
Good thing the world hasn't changed since 600AD...
Can someone tell me a bit more about these Sacred Worms?
Oh, and in answer to the actual question,
I don’t THINK Christians would get so upset if you set fire to a copy of The Bible
The issue here I suspect is that you're viewing Christianity through Britain's on the whole pretty wishy-washy interpretation of it, everyday folk who regularly go to church every year for Midnight Mass at Christmas.
Not every Xtian is like that. Go setting fire to bibles in say Tennessee, see how that works out for you. Hope you don't have a bullet allergy.
but Muslims take setting fire to a copy of The Quran as an act of religious hatred.
Because, what else could it be. Can you think of a more mundane scenario? "Hm, the fire's getting a bit low and oh no, we're out of coal! Best get my Quran on the go, it's either that or Pinch of Nom and I was about to go rustle up a quiche."
Riddle me this. Why would anyone burning a Quran even have one unless they'd acquired it explicitly to burn it? I couldn't burn a bible for one blindingly obvious reason. I'd first have to drive to the Christian bookshop in Preston in order to buy one and if I'm going to all that trouble I might as well torch the entire shop. And as much as I dislike organised religion that feels like it may be something of an overreaction.
The issue here I suspect is that you’re viewing Christianity through Britain’s on the whole pretty wishy-washy interpretation of it, everyday folk who regularly go to church every year for Midnight Mass at Christmas.
I have had contact with the fundmentalist "christians" recently. They are a whole other level and completely vile. they will lie in pursuit of their ideals. They consider non believers lessor and look down on them. They believe the bible is the literal word of god. Its been really eye opening
I’m sure there are plenty of less “serious” Muslims who simply shake their head and think “what a prick” when someone burns the Quoran.
Pretty much exactly what happened in town here. Paludan didn't have time to advertise and get the rest of his racist pricks into town, or rile up the Muslim population (local or otherwise). So it was just people shaking their heads and heckling, it's a shame no one threw a milk shake at him. But they aren't cheap here.
And TBH, burning Harry Potter books might get you some hate from a (very) small percentage of Potterheads.
..
@martinhutch:
‘Free speech absolutists’ tend to be mostly interested in their own consequence-free free speech, for some reason.
And people who use the term Free Speech Absolutists are actually pro-censorship and are either lying to themselves or others that they believe in free speech.
You cannot avoid the pitfalls that Hitchens very clearly articulates without actual, real freedom.
So yeah, given the last 2000 years of history - particularly (but not exclusively) religious history - I'm unapologetically zero tolerance on people who hold infantilising pro-censorship opinions.
chevy - do you think it acceptable to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre?
Good thing the world hasn’t changed since 600AD
In some parts of the world that seems to be true. Taliban's treatment of women come to mind.
I’m unapologetically zero tolerance on people who hold infantilising pro-censorship opinions.
Publicly setting fire to something doesn't seem like the least infantile way to demonstrate opposition to something. It seems more like a deliberate attempt to antagonise people who like that thing.
I’m unapologetically zero tolerance on people who hold infantilising pro-censorship opinions.
Which includes people who burn books on purpose presumably?
Can someone tell me a bit more about these Sacred Worms?
In the beginning was the Worm, and the Worm was with God, and the Worm was God.
Book burning? Books are tech used for storing, transmitting and communicate information. If you destroy that info in theatrical style you're doing it in turn to send a message, unlikely to be positively received.
None of us is 100% free. Because letting people do exactly what they want tends to mean that the freedoms of others are curtailed. Society should be a rolling compromise of rights and restrictions aimed at keeping everyone alive and well, and free from harassment and intimidation. Absolute freedom on an island of nearly 70 million people is impossible unless someone else is being trampled on to get it, and anyone who demands it generally isn't too concerned about that.
And that applies, to some extent, to speech and expression too. If I use free speech to rabble-rouse and incite violence and hatred against someone else, my free speech can directly reduce their freedom to live peacefully.
@tjagain - I didn't think you of all people would give me such a gift, and score such a a big own goal! Fantastic! Doesn't happen often on a forum :):
chevy – do you think it acceptable to shout “fire” in a crowded theatre?
Just watch the first minute of this:
To TJ, but also posting on this thread and hold pro-censorship opinions, if you've never watched that whole thing, it intelligently addresses everything this thread brings up incredibly succinctly. It's as if one of our great intellects has written and performed a speech to designed to address this very thread. If you don't really want to challenge your own opinions this way then then you're really only participating in a forum to howl at the moon, with no eye on self-improvement, never mind actual argument.
If you still can't be arsed after that, my last post on this thread (because I can't summarise anything better than Hitchens has on this exact subject) - how about this from the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference, and impart information and ideas through any media regardless of frontiers
Unless, of course, we legislate against them.
Think it’s time to admit to needing glasses- quick glimpse of the thread title & I thought it was “Buming the Queen”
It’s as if one of our great intellects
I'll stop reading there. This is Hitchens we're talking about, and his book on this subject "God isn't Great" is wilfully dishonest and anti-intellectual. As a (what would we call him?) a public philosopher His work in this area comes up woefully short. Like a undergrad argument maybe, but for some-one who professes intellect, it's shoddy at best and ignorant presumably by design
[as an example] He condenses the whole of the Eastern religious tradition into about 8 pages of that book, as if all the traditions of Buddhism and Hinduism (for example) can be lumped together. It's a work of startling crassness. That someone is using it to bait what might have otherwise been an interesting thread (by someone who's raison d'etre on this website appears to be just that) comes as no surprise.
are you religious @nickc?
Plenty of Buddhist and Hindu mass-murderous atrocities around the world. Pick your religion, pick your abuse and murder.
Pick your religion, pick your abuse and murder.
I'm sure we can find any number of religiously inspired atrocities throughout history, but to claim that somehow religion has made men uniquely violent in spite of their otherwise peaceful nature or their innate sense of good and evil isn't sound thinking. Its more likely that killing the heathens and the heretics and the free thinkers was always something that could be done in perfectly good conscience insofar as it was done for Yahweh, Allah, or The Church.
Plenty of Buddhist and Hindu mass-murderous atrocities around the world. Pick your religion, pick your abuse and murder.
Unlike atheists who have never done such things?
I’m sure we can find any number of religiously inspired atrocities throughout history, but to claim that somehow religion has made men uniquely violent in spite of their otherwise peaceful nature or their innate sense of good and evil isn’t sound thinking.
Religion is literally the mechanism by which unscrupulous people have mobilised people for war for millenia.
Religion has been the binding common myth that is needed to mobilise populations. It's not the only mechanism for doing so, but it's been the single most effective tool for that down the centuries. And it comes with the downside of magical thinking that pervades all of life which enables simple control over the humans that are brought up to believe it (note I didn't say idiots).
It's why religions are all for "hate speech" censorship - because they protect them - and why religious pressure groups are conflating "islamophobia" with spurious racial connotations, in the same way the state of Israel has been smearing those who would criticise the actions of the state with antisemitism.
I said I wouldn't get drawn into the thread further, so I failed on that point. Any more, watch the vid. If you've got a better argument than is made in that then you've a chance of changing my mind. But nobody has ever presented me with one, so whilst I eagerly await such a day, I don't hold out much hope for anyone being able to muster it.
Plenty of Christians will lose their shit at Bible burning. A Bermondsey pub if you have the wrong face, a Wee Free church, an Orange Lodge, a GAA club...and that's just inside the UK. There are plenty of Christian zealots in Nigeria, Uganda, Palestine, Serbia...
Some spanker US soldiers burned a bin bag full of Qur’an’s (given to detainees) in 2012 and a shit storm ensued.
ISTR at the time the soldiers had to clear out a cell block, and thought that burning them WAS the respectful thing to do (as an analogue to burning the US flag, which is the approved thing)
Free speech shouldn’t override common sense and decency
I totally agree that just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should. But more importantly, we shouldn't let wafty, slippery notions of "decency" and "politeness" become reasons to suppress free speech. No-one has a right not ever to see things that offend or insult them...
...especially you, Big Nose.
No-one has a right not ever to see things that offend or insult them…
Agreed. But doesn't mean we have to put up with people that are saying (or doing) something purely to offend, as is probably the case in the burning case
Religion is literally the mechanism by which
We get the rich cross-cultural fertilization of the Levant by Hellenistic, Jewish, and Manichaean thought, and the transformation of a Jewish heretic into a religion that Nietzsche called “Platonism for the masses.”
We get the fascinating theological separation in the New Testament between Jewish, Gnostic, and Pauline doctrines, and the remarkable journey of the first Christian heresy
Without religion you have to ignore the spiritual origin of our own thoroughly liberal Unitarianism. (Newton was an Arian and anti-Trinitarian, which made his presence at Trinity College permanently awkward; ask @steveXTC)
and we get the sublime transformation of Christian thought into the cathartic spirituality of German Idealism/ Romanticism And we otherwise don’t have the existential Christianity of Kierkegaard, Dostoevsky, Karl Jaspers, Paul Tillich, Martin Buber, and, most recently The Pope. Who’s messages have been the most robust anti-capitalist tracts from any post Marxism because of the harms it does to the poor.
But y'know Hitchens.... One of the great intellectuals. 🙄
Try expanding your horizons a bit.
So you are religious, and you are threatened by free speech and that's why you fall on the side of restricting what people are allowed to hear.
Check.
"and, most recently The Pope. Who’s messages have been the most robust anti-capitalist tracts from any post Marxism because of the harms it does to the poor"
I'll take lessons from someone who doesn't cover up institutional child abuse and still to this day runs opportunistic policies based on the sensibilities of the countries that it's operating in so it can provide varying levels of cover to predatory men who rape children.
Plenty of more worthy people have written much more on the harms of modern economics than than the head of a child-rape apologist organisation. One that still holds condom-use in AIDS-ridden Africa a sin, whilst being quiet on that in the UK. As they are about the fact that in much of the world they still hate gays, they still believe women are the cause of original sin and beneath men.
Religion claims moral authority where it has none. And it's primary tool to protect itself is to shut people up - to deny them the ability to freely criticise it.
So yes, stupidly burning books and making jokes and laughing at religion is going to wind people up. Enough so they'll try and kill you for it - and they get so violently wound up because such action is effective.
Even if they can't be talked out of their delusion, their children see it. And children see through religion anyway - and the idea that not all adults fall for the delusion, that some adults laugh at the lies religion promulgates is infectious. So much so that some of those kids ditch the religion (in countries that they're allowed to do so).
Censorship prevents that from happening - and censorship of that type is rife across the planet. It's not long gone in the UK and could easily come back.
So burn those bibles whilst you can people. It's a liberty that literally millions of people have died to buy you.
And whilst warming your hands on the ashes of the Quran rest easy that you're not abusing any freedom of speech - you're not stopping anyone from reading the words contained therein, there's bloody millions of copies of it all over the world, poisoning the minds of children into hating you and people like you. Burn away knowing that the only thing you're really hurting is the idea of organised religion being something that deserves respect, when it clearly doesn't.
ISTR at the time the soldiers had to clear out a cell block, and thought that burning them WAS the respectful thing to do (as an analogue to burning the US flag, which is the approved thing)
Aye, a soon as we heard it on BBC news those of us in country knew we were a) getting a long briefing b) going to catch some extra spicy heat for insult.
Both things happened. The worst part was the dull as **** briefing.
I said I wouldn’t get drawn into the thread further
And yet here you are drawn deeper and deeper apparently against your own will.
Maybe a study into the teachings of the Buddha might help you to have the strength and self-discipline to achieve your own goals💡
@ernielynch, let me quote the whole of what I said:
I said I wouldn’t get drawn into the thread further, so I failed on that point.
I don't think Buddha would help, I had some free time to kill in between meetings today and thought it an important enough subject to be involved in.
Unlike the Buddhists at least I'm only killing time instead of committing ethnic-cleansing and the forced migration of populations through mass-rape.
Although maybe I should try that?
Can someone tell me a bit more about these Sacred Worms?
Bless the Maker and His water. Bless the coming and going of Him. May His passage cleanse the world. May He keep the world for His people