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Having just observed someone - thankfully - just keeping a very large Bully type dog under control, it really got me thinking why?
Serious question - there may be some here who own such, but curious about the decision making behind such a selection...
Since the introduction of the dangerous dogs act in 1991, there hasn't been a correspondingly significant change in the number of dog attacks.
It's almost like government wants to be seen to do something but doesn't know what to do or doesn't have the will to do what needs to be done.
The fact that whether an animal is in the banned list or not seems to be subjective rather than repeatably proven by scientific means suggests the system is flawed
Yes, some dogs can be dangerous and people need to be protected from that but destroying dogs because someone things it looks like a breed that someone else thinks is dangerous is a flawed system.
I'm also believe that the root cause on the whole, is more people centric than dog centric.
Dangerous Dogs Act was a load of crap.
I used to own a Staffie, but they're not exactly huge. And whilst they might look like a pair of mobile jaws from the wrong angle, they are also total clowns.
With that said, I can't see a genuine need for a bully breed four or five times the weight of a Staffie. That goes a little beyond "family pet". They're weapons. Not dogs.
Aggressive people like dogs with a reputation for being aggressive?
I know that's not always the case. In fact, we see someone with an xl bully with the muzzle etc and he and his dog are very nice seemingly.
However, ime there seems to be some correlation between the image you want to put out and the breed of dog you favour.
We've got a Bordoodle so I guess that suggests our intentions 😂
take a look at the top ten breeds that bite. i'd be surprised if it featured heavily those types of dogs many would suspect. last time i looked it was all dachshunds and chihuahuas. my old boss had a couple of english bull terriers one after the other they adopted. his missus had grown up with bullys and liked their nature. i always thought they were ugly as sin and pretty flawed TBH but the amount of times he'd get stopped by women who would proclaim how beautiful they were never ceased to amaze me - off the charts! they were never any trouble. probably less trouble than my old spaniel who you would think butter wouldn't melt...
Don't see many headlines about chihuahuas killing people though. A dog was killed in an unprovoked attack by two XL Bullys 200 yards from my house. One of two attacks by those dogs within a week.
Second attack here.
I've got friends (not in the UK!) who have a Dogo Argentino which they got from a dog rescue organization. They (my friends) are the complete opposite of the stereotypical aggressive/macho type!
I have no idea why they chose this dog but they are very careful where they take it as he looks very intimidating and he's bloody strong (I've walked him several times and its exhausting).
However, outside of some initial excitement and exuberance/wanting to play (typical of many dogs), he's very docile and well trained. Still, I'm somewhat nervous around him though as his jaw is massive and very powerful...
irc - that's horrific. i suppose the point i was badly trying to illustrate was that all dog breeds can be shits if poorly trained and/or subjected to enough abuse.
I had a Saturday job back in the 80s on a milk round - badly trained small dogs were a ****ing nightmare for being aggressive. Though they are not big enough to badly harm an adult, which is the difference with the Bully XLs and similar. The system is very flawed, bad owners are a bigger issue than bad dogs, but a bad big dog is too much of a risk for anyone without an image to enhance/create.
Do seem to be more reports of dogs attacking sheep in the last few weeks here in Derbyshire, been some awful events, and no pattern with breeds. Maybe if the farmers could shoot the owners instead of the dogs....
Have to admit that I always thought Staffies were intimidating looking dogs but have now had dealings with quite a few recently and they are just daft and soppy.
The dogs I avoid the most are the small ones but it's generally okay because they're smaller and can't do as much damage or at least that's what all the owners think whereas in reality they terrified the poop out of my last dog and she was 40kg.
'they are one of the softest-tempered and sweetest dogs around! They are happy, sociable, and borderline boisterous, offering owners a bubbly and infectious personality similar to * and *.
* dogs would love to play all day and are comfortable indoors. They are happy with outdoor environments as well such as doggy daycare or a dog park. Plus, they are very smart and versatile in their play styles, making anything a fun game.
The Kennel Club’s breed standard notes that these * breeds are intelligent yet obedient, which makes them a great choice for families and solo owners alike. * do well with other four-legged family members and are kind to newcomers, so long as they don’t think they’re a threat.'
Here is a description of the character traits of one such breed that you're wondering why people own. Now without seeing the breed/name nor a visual representation, I'd be surprised you can think of a reason not to own one. They're a good medium size with a nice easy coat to maintain as well. The trouble is like with so many other things you're seeing the representation from the media and all the bad stories, not all the good stuff.
One of my students has a chihuahua. He told me they were bread as guard dogs. Not as in being able to stop a burglar, more like a mobile burglar alarm.
I teach the dangerous dogs act in criminology and up until last year was firmly in the it's the owners that are the problem camp.
I had a wee read about the statistics on bully XL and pitbulls. It changed my mind. It's probably impossible to separate people who want a dangerous strong dog from the behaviours of dangerous strong dogs.
I can't find the articles I read last time. The BBC are a bit less specific on numbers.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66775985.amp
According to the latest data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS), as at 18 October 2024, there had been seven deaths as a result of dog attacks since the start of the year. There were 19 deaths in 2023, and six in 2022.
In several cases, XL bullies are known to have killed their owners, including David Daintree, 53, in August 2024, and Angeline Mahal, who was in her 50s, in May 2024.
Nicholas Glass, 33, also died in August after being attacked by four dogs - including two XL bullies.
Other people killed by XL bullies include 10-year-olds Savannah Bentham andJack Lis,68-year-old Esther Martin, 54-year-old Ian Langley, 52-year-old Ian Price, Threshold Ann Dunn and 17-month-old Bella-Rae Birch.
So 32 deaths due to dogs in 3 years. 10(?) from bully xl's.
There's not that many bully XL in the UK, seems very high.
USA
I'm not vouching for theses stats, I've read similar else where.
https://www.askadamskutner.com/dog-bites/bite-statistics-according-to-dog-breed/
Bite statistics according to dog breed
The most recent dog bite statistics by breed that were responsible for a dog bite-related fatality include the following:
Pit Bulls: 284 deaths
Rottweiler: 45 deaths
German Shepherd: 20 deaths
Mixed breeds: 17 deaths
American Bulldog: 15 deaths
Mastiff: 14 deaths
Siberian Husky: 13 deaths
Labrador Retriever: 9 deaths
Boxer: 7 deaths
Doberman Pinscher: 6 deaths
Pit Bulls and Rottweilers have received an unfavorable reputation; combining the figures for both dogs adds up to 76% of fatal dog attacks. However, most breeds on the list have stronger bite forces than other dogs.
Idle, non scientific observation.....as a child of the '70s it was 'Alsatians' I have the most memory of being frightened of. The barking and baring of teeth of a dog straining at a leash is a vivid repeated memory. In the 2020's I can't think if I've met a German Shepherd that was not a well behaved, well trained credit to their human. If I were to have a dog, it's the breed I'm most drawn to which I would have never have thought 30 or more years ago. It's almost like the dafties have moved on to another breed to project their personality and lack of care through.
XL bully is a hell of a lot of animal in the wrong hands mind. Which is I guess the point - we have to legislate for the crappiest of our fellow humans. Wife works for the SSPCA - they ended up euthanising a good number in the days after the laws changed last year. Apparently they were mostly lovely behaved creatures in the days leading up to it having been given up by their owners weeks/months earlier.
It's almost like the dafties have moved on to another breed to project their personality and lack of care through.
Some dogs are worse than others though eg a Staffordshire bull terrier would need some proper effort into making it a menace whereas a Malinois bored and ill socialised could well manage it by itself.
The bullys xl do seem to have a particular problem. This suggests UK ones are a)particularly inbred and b)many descend from one dog which seems to have been unstable and ended up killing someone.
Reminds me of some friends of my parents when I was a kid. They had various Labradors (think anyway one of those types) and had one which was just a complete nutter to anyone outside the family. Always walked muzzled and at quiet times.
All their other dogs were great its just this one had something wrong in its head and I think if it had been with people less experienced it would have probably ended up being put down.
Do seem to be more reports of dogs attacking sheep in the last few weeks here in Derbyshire, been some awful events, and no pattern with breeds. Maybe if the farmers could shoot the owners instead of the dogs....
To an extent, it is the owners. People have no idea (or don’t care) that their dog shouldn’t be off the lead near livestock, or on shared use paths for that matter. Every time I go out on the moors on my bike I will see several dogs running free off the lead where there are sheep.
They had various Labradors (think anyway one of those types) and had one which was just a complete nutter to anyone outside the family.
Not really a dog person, but my experience with Labs, including my brothers Lab Honey, is that they’re wonderfully friendly dogs, which is why they are often crossed with Retrievers; the only thing they have to be stopped from doing is eating everything that’s available, the end result being a distinct resemblance to the Foodyear Blimp. So maybe that one had fallen on its head as a puppy.
And whilst they might look like a pair of mobile jaws from the wrong angle, they are also total clowns.
Bodie after a meeting with an off-lead total clown in December 2021. This was after the drain was removed, there are pics with lots of blood too. The right hand tooth mark is a through bite and cost the other owner £400 in vets fees (it was pay or have the dog reported & destroyed). Staffies can be lovely dogs but my personal experience is that walking them without concentration by the owner is bad form. (My daughter had one and whilst I could walk him off-lead under control, she couldn't guarantee that he was safe off-lead with her).
In a world where labradors exist, if you choose an XL bully as a family pet it’s because you’re too scared to leave your house without a weapon. Simply no other reason for them to exist.
I would absolutely agree that the dangerous dogs act is a crock, but anyone spouting “it’s the dog not the owner” has absolutely let go of reality. All dogs are not the same. We’ve been selectively breeding them for millennia specifically for them NOT to be the same.
Main reasons ? I suspect it's
- drug dealer
- stolen property trader
- prostitute pimp
- gun seller
- dickhead.
Each of those are not mutually exclusive.
It's an aesthetic thing. Same with Orange FS bikes - some people think they look good.
Nowt as strange as folk.
Main reasons ? I suspect it's
- drug dealer
- stolen property trader
- prostitute pimp
- gun seller
- dickhead.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the list, you did miss off the people who re-home rescued ones.
take a look at the top ten breeds that bite.
And then take a look at the dogs that kill people, tend not to be poorly socialised/trained Daschunds and he like. I'd take on a Daschund in a fight, not so keen on my odds with a Pit Bull or a XL Bully. Quite happy to see them band. The difficulty comes in around proving what breed a dog is when breeds are very loosely described in most of this types, hence you hear the word type used. Same with our old lurcher, she wasn't a breed a lurcher is a type.
If you look on the pages of any dog charity offering dogs for rehoming, nine of ten of them will be these sorts of dogs.
My neighbours rescued a dog that could be classed as an XL Bully. I've been around dogs my entire life and she is the most sweet natured and gentle dog I've ever had the pleasure to meet. Great with my kids too. Patient, calm and well behaved. Before anyone says it , I would never leave any dog alone with children.
Most dogs, regardless of breed, will thrive in the right environment and likewise have the capacity to be an issue if treated badly. Like with any intelligent creatures, some can be absolute dicks or just plain dangerous. Chewie, my dog, is a miniature poodle and a right dickhead. Of all the dogs I've ever had, including a deaf boxer, he's the most difficult. Not remotely dangerous but has a lot of issues.
That looks horrible, sandwich.
I generalise about Staffies temperament, of course there will always be exceptions.
My wife parents used to have a Labrador that had to be kept away from visitors, the postman, all other dogs. He was terribly trained.
Most dogs, regardless of breed, will thrive in the right environment and likewise have the capacity to be an issue if treated badly
Very much this.
Yeah file me under don't get the aggressive extension breed of human anger.
Don't need 'em. Some choices in life have too many downsides.
May as well go the whole hog and get a Mountain lion. My 200lb cat will beat your XL mate.
Temperament is broadly irrelevent (every dog is sweet until it's not) it's about how much damage they can do.
Society just doesn't lose out overall by having a few less aggressive big dogs.
I tend to think that dogs, like people, aren't born bad, they're made that way.
People who buy XL Bully type dogs know exactly what their reputation is and are buying them for that reason, even if they say otherwise. Presumably a significant proportion of those people then encourage those traits. I think that dogs often reflect their owners personalities - easy going relaxed owner = easy going relaxed dog. Defensive, jittery or aggressive owner = dog that's no good in public.
Since the introduction of the dangerous dogs act in 1991, there hasn't been a correspondingly significant change in the number of dog attacks.
It's almost like government wants to be seen to do something but doesn't know what to do or doesn't have the will to do what needs to be done.
The fact that whether an animal is in the banned list or not seems to be subjective rather than repeatably proven by scientific means suggests the system is flawed
You can either have system where everything is illegal un less you have a law specifically allowing it, or everything is legal unless you have a law specifically banning it. In the UK we have the latter and for certain situations it makes prohibitions easy to circumvent.
Take our drugs laws for instance - we have laws banning specific recreational drugs and a market for 'legal highs'. These aren't drugs that our legal system has sanctioned as legal, they are just a novel variant of a drug different enough from existing banned drugs not to come under the terms of legislation, yet. Laws can be updated to bring those new drugs within their scope, but just as quickly you can come up with another concoction thats different enough the be 'legal' for the time being.
And it's the same problem with 'dangerous breeds'. Theres no end to the ways in which you can selectively create new breeds of dog. The XL Bully breed didn't exist when the Dangerous Dog act was created so it was a bread that couldn't be specified in the legislation. The first XLs didn't arrive in the UK until 10 years ago and obviously it takes time for them to be bred from for there to be any significant number of them. Theres now more than 50,000 that have been registered in the UK.
he's bloody strong (I've walked him several times and its exhausting)
Why? Are you physically restraining the dog all the time? Does it not come to heel and stay there?
Most dogs, regardless of breed, will thrive in the right environment and likewise have the capacity to be an issue if treated badly
True but I reckon if a chihuahua wanted to kill me I'd win that fight, I'd back myself against a lab or a collie or my old lurcher if she had gone mad. But a dog with Jaws that would fit me head in....well no thanks. They'll always be badly socialised and trained dogs, I would rather they weren't XL bullies or pit bulls, they serve no purpose over a different t type.
But they exist. What do you suggest, that we put them all down? As per my previous post, my neighbours rescued one, she is a beautiful animal, well socialised and well behaved. Also, my head would not fit in her jaws.
This comes in cycles. Alsatians then Dobermans, Rottweilers, Staffies, Pit Bulls etc.One common denominator and that's humans. Pricks gonna find ways to be pricks. I think licensing for dogs should be brought back in. Along with mandatory training and socialising of dogs. Very few dogs serve a purpose other than companionship nowadays.
I'm not trying to argue here and I agree that some breeds can be intimidating. What are the actual chances of being attacked by one though? Compared to being hit by a car, killed by a cow etc.
What do you suggest, that we put them all down?
We stop anymore being produced by neutering those alive, putting down dangerous ones, muzzling the licensed ones in public and make future ownership illegal. Anyone found breeding them face prosecution and dogs pts. Job jobed
It's like gun's, or mountainbikes.
In 99% of cases they're great and no danger to anyone. Give them to a complete bellend who'll point it in the wrong direction and they'll kill someone.
There was an American Bulldog on The Dog House (Series 3?) called buddy, he was genuinely one of the softest dogs I've ever met. To use the gun analogy he was a Bazooka, and as a result had grown up probably being treated as such (i.e. with a bit of respect) so he loved everyone. Compare that to 99% of Spitz/Chiwawa/dashund/cavapoo/terrier/fury-rats-with-asshole-personalities that got happily re-homed with families despite being utter dicks because people assume small = safe and pick them up or play with them when they clearly wanted to be left, or just generally leave any aggression unchecked because it's easier to just drag them away on a lead. They have all the danger of a kids air rifle but people just keep pointing them at their faces.
The problem is people with dick personalities are drawn to guns and big dogs. And because we don't live in the Minority Report where we can ban dicks, the only thing we can do is ban guns and big dogs.#
Buddy, doing his best attempt at a "I will eat your face if you don't give me that snack in your pocket" look.
n.b. he still had some growing to do and was already an absolute unit, that photo doesn't do him justice.
Most dogs, regardless of breed, will thrive in the right environment and likewise have the capacity to be an issue if treated badly
True but I reckon if a chihuahua wanted to kill me I'd win that fight, I'd back myself against a lab or a collie or my old lurcher if she had gone mad. But a dog with Jaws that would fit me head in....well no thanks. They'll always be badly socialised and trained dogs, I would rather they weren't XL bullies or pit bulls, they serve no purpose over a different t type.
My thoughts exactly!
Also, Staffies can be soppy things but anyone who has seen up close the damage their jaws can do to another dog might feel slightly differently.
. The trouble is like with so many other things you're seeing the representation from the media and all the bad stories, not all the good stuff.
"Well sure, if you only look at the toddlers they mauled then of course they're going to look bad"
It's an aesthetic thing. Same with Orange FS bikes - some people think they look good.
Nowt as strange as folk.
This is next level... comparing people who get Bully XLs to people who buy an Orange. What type of dog would a Santa Cruz owner buy? A Starling owner? What about a Trek owner?
Clue's in the name, who thinks "I'll get an extra large bully, sounds perfect for little Timmy"?
Have to admit that I always thought Staffies were intimidating looking dogs but have now had dealings with quite a few recently and they are just daft and soppy.
The Girl has a Staffie. It's soft as muck, his biggest threat to a human is that he has a head like a cannonball perfectly positioned at the same height from the floor as my bollocks. Ask me how I know.
We stop anymore being produced by neutering those alive, putting down dangerous ones, muzzling the licensed ones in public and make future ownership illegal. Anyone found breeding them face prosecution and dogs pts. Job jobed
People will just breed something else though. Breeds exist for guarding stuff. From facilities to livestock. Some of them are way bigger than an XL Bully. What do we do about those? Ensure they are only being used for the job they were bred for. Like we do with 4x4 cars for example.
How do you ensure all existing dogs of 'insert breed X here's are neutered? Who enforces the muzzled in public bit?
Job not so jobbed I fear.
Clue's in the name, who thinks "I'll get an extra large bully, sounds perfect for little Timmy"?
Have you met more than three people? There are a lot of very daft folk out there. No dog, no matter how well behaved, should be left alone with children. Dogs can be dicks and so can kids.
People will just breed something else
Ban them then.
Some of them are way bigger than an XL Bully
When they regularly appear in the news killing people, they took can be banned.
How do you ensure all existing dogs of 'insert breed X here's are neutered?
Same way we already do with banned breeds.
Who enforces the muzzled in public bit?
The police, same as other laws really.
Cannot see what the issues are
Also, Staffies can be soppy things but anyone who has seen up close the damage their jaws can do to another dog might feel slightly differently.
As a point of note;
The bite force of a labrador and a staffie are about the same.
Just putting that out there.
Staffies jaws are much bigger though!
Dogs don’t kill people, rappers do
ask any politician and they’ll tell you it’s true
Also, Staffies can be soppy things but anyone who has seen up close the damage their jaws can do to another dog might feel slightly differently.
As a point of note;
The bite force of a labrador and a staffie are about the same.
Just putting that out there.
Quite surprising! My aunt had a staffie whose body seemed to be about 90% neck. You'd think it would be way higher.
I suppose it's not just the bite force but the overall strength, I mean this little bugger was absolutely solid. If you've ever held a big bit of lead, it had the same kind of disconnect between size and weight as that!
Neck strength would come in after the bite, when it starts twisting.
Toxic macho dick waving is, I believe the only rationale for owning a shark on legs. There can be no other justification.
agree, saw a very inadequete steroid user I know from the gym being dragged along by a huge dog the other day.
@mrmonkfinger He still has a smiley face mark on that leg. He's now sensitive to dogs that have restricted breathing due to the snub nose. They whistle at a pitch I can't hear but he has to go on lead if we don't have Ball to destract him. I also need to be aware if anyone I'm talking to has a tracheotomy as they whistle when they speak and he gets a bit tense and growly. Thank goodness that Ball is Life and if that is present no problems at all with other dogs.
And then take a look at the dogs that kill people
Followed by "dog breeds most likely to attack people"
Following the post you quoted I did some googling fully expecting to get Border Collies and Labs etc, but got Staffies etc. I feel like there's some selective stats use at time for dog bites.
The dog breed you are most likely to get bitten by is not necessarily the dog breed most likely to bite.
And as I pointed out the dogs most likely to be bitten by are not the ones likely to be able to kill adults.
Long read here. In summary UK XL Bullys are largely inbred and from a small number of original dogs many of which had known aggressive tendencies.
As per my previous post, my neighbours rescued one, she is a beautiful animal, well socialised and well behaved. Also, my head would not fit in her jaws.
Enough about the neighbour tell us about the dog 🙂
Right, head above parapet slightly here as it's a very contentious issue. I'm currently involved in an academic paper reviewing the ban. I'd take that article above about 'Killer Kimbo' with the largest pinch of salt you can!
Rest of the thread seems to have covered the main issues though! Dangerous Dog Act was never adequate, XL Bullys don't seem to bite more than other breeds (there's no credible evidence at all that they do), XL Bullys can actually be a wide variety of cross breeds. The main problem of course is that they cause a hell of a lot more damage when they do bite. Cane Corso's are the next problem....and the actual problem is we need to legislate for better ownership and breeding practices rather than just banning breeds when they start hitting the headlines.
I suppose it's not just the bite force but the overall strength
and
Followed by "dog breeds most likely to attack people"
(and others)
Risk Management 101 is "likelihood x severity." How likely is it that something will go wrong, and how bad will it be if it does.
Handbag dogs score highly in the first category (because they're almost all bad-tempered little shits) but not the second. Something like a Labrador as mentioned above would be the other way around. The problem with the XLBs (as I understand it) is that they are often being bred and raised specifically to meet both criteria.
problem....and the actual problem is we need to legislate for better ownership and breeding practices rather than just banning breeds when they start hitting the headlines.
You can do that but it won't work. The idiots are drawn to these types of dog and that sort of legislation is reactive, it should be in place but it comes after an attack. I love dogs and they bring so much joy but, maybe I am a bit hard nosed about it but I comfortable with banning and PTS any dog that is, by design nothing more than a badly trained weapon. There's no need for them.
Practically all of the peer reviewed evidence disagrees with you. We banned XL Bullys and it hasn't really worked thus far has it. Legislating for better dog ownership isn't reactive, a whole review and updating of the dangerous dog act had been ongoing since at least 2018. The XL Bully ban and the way in which it was brought in somewhat torpedoed that process.
It's far from an easy answer to actually adequately deal with 'dangerous dogs'.
My view of this type of dog has changed since I saw up close a dog attack a young 8yr old girl close to a local shopping centre. It wasn’t a Bully. It looked like some kind of Samoyed or white Akita. I happened to be around 20m away when it happened, and looking in that direction. Up until that time, I’d probably thought that any dog could be kicked/wrestled to the ground without major damage. And I always had a bit of a macho “I could take on any dog” type of stupid attitude.
That day changed me. Without any warning or provocation the dog when straight for the girls neck. I’m absolutely 100% certain that if the girl hadn’t been wearing a puffa jacked zipped right up, the attack would certainly have been fatal. The girls grandad jumped on the dog amazingly quickly, and managed to drag it off. That dog was constantly growling and trying to get back at the girl - who had been obliviously, peacefully walking past. The guy had to hold onto the dog for about 30 minutes until the cops and dog warden turned up. It took an unbelievable, immense effort for that guy to hold onto that dog. I tried to help where possible.
I don’t care what anyone says (I’ve never ever not owned a dog at any time in my life, and consider myself a total dog lover to this day) - that dog was dead set on killing that girl. It was a miracle that she escaped harm.
so I don’t have any patience at all with people who say that XL Bully’s bite less often, or are equally dangerous to Chihuahuas. Once I saw a powerful dog attacking, my eyes were opened. There is all the difference in the world between a tiny dog biting someone and a powerful dog like this going on the attack. I’m 100% in favour of doing everything possible to try to reduce the number of this type of dog in the UK.
Practically all of the peer reviewed evidence disagrees with you.
Well that's me told, should I do my own research?
Considering all the owners of killer dogs get prosecuted and found guilty I guess the legislation exists but is not working
I won't go into it, but I had to pin down a friends terrier that attacked another friends cat inside the house (friends house). Four dogs inside, the terrier had been eyeing up the cat for ages. I only got the dog off by sticking both thumbs into it's throat (under side) and then dragging it out and physically sitting on it. Fortunately it was only after the cat, it could well have had me. I had to sit on it for about 20 minutes - it never calmed down. Cat hat to be put down.
The problem was the owner - should never have taken it to the house. She warned me about a rescue they had - that was fine, but the terrier, pure killer. The other friend had two cockers that lived with the cat.
You are ****ed with a big dog.
Well I'm telling you what the broad consensus amongst experts is a_a and as you say, yes the legislation does exist and is ineffective. You can of course 'do your own research' and we both know that you have a background in research. I'm just telling you what my findings from own ongoing research are.
Well I'm telling you what the broad consensus amongst experts is a_a and as you say, yes the legislation does exist and is ineffective. You can of course 'do your own research'
😄😄😄😄😄😄
@fossy The safer end can also be used to release a gripping dog a knob or balls grab or the nuclear option of a finger up the bum. I have used the knob grab in anger, not had to go all-in on an anus yet!!
It's an aesthetic thing. Same with Orange FS bikes - some people think they look good.
Nowt as strange as folk.
Hey, I think the welds are beautiful 🙂 there's nothing wrong with my stage Evo !
I agree with the sentiments in the thread though - bully type dogs are a problem. With most other dog breeds, the owner can physically control the dog. With a bully type dog, I don't care who you are. If that dog decides to do something there's very little you can do about it.
I go running a lot and although it is the small dogs which are more likely to bite (or at least to fling themselves against the end of the lead trying to bite) our experience with the bigger dogs is:
Retriever type dogs - want to sniff, want to see if you've got any food, want to see if you'll throw their ball....
German shepherds - want to join the run*
Stuffies etc - seem to ignore runners
Bully type dogs - something of a rarity around here, although I do see one owner late at night walking their dog with a muzzle on. The dog is absolutely humongous. Thankfully as soon as I see it or they see me we both go in different directions.
Q
* - We had a hilarious thing happen last year where this German shepherd joined our run. After about 30 minutes, someone enquired as to who owned the dog that was now running alongside with us. We decided to turn back and eventually found a very harassed owner. We asked him if they wanted to lend us the dog for a while 🙂
One thing I should probably add though, there's only been two times when I've actually been chased by dogs and both were as a kid. Both times involved packs of German shepherds.
The last time I was about 18 (so not really a kid anymore) and I ended up with my back against a tree with my mountain bike in front of me using my front wheel to try and defend myself against five or six German shepherds.... For some weird reason the owner was more angry with me - I still haven't worked out why they thought walking five or six German shepherds off of the lead when they were quite obviously acting as a hunting pack was a good idea. It was in the hills at the back of Brighton if anyone's interested.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c15qp4pn1qvo
Bigger problem in some cities?
In 2023, 19 people were killed in the UK in attacks by dogs found or suspected to be XL bullies.
That is horrendous. I can't begin to imagine the agony/fear those people went through before they were killed.
How many more survived after a dog tried to maul/eat/kill them. Horrific.
Bullies are lovely and intelligent dogs, the world's greatest enthusiasts. The last thing they need is to be owned by an arsehole.
It's definitely not the breed that is the problem with them, it's the owner.
One proviso though, they react quickly to perceived aggression from other dogs, and if there's any of it around, it's the Bullie that finishes it.
I regard them as the canine equivalent of a friendly mini T-Rex.
If you want to own one, learn dog body language, treat it and train it well. and you'll have the best friend ever.
The most important command to teach any dog is 'stop' and they should be trained to obey that regardless.
(I've never owned a Bully, but have known several well. My dogs have always been big hounds, Danes, Wolfhounds)
There is absolutely no reason for some of these breeds to exist. I'd ban all 'Bully' XL types and in fact all dogs capable of killing a human except for Police use. There are enough smaller, safer breeds around for dog lovers to 'enjoy'.
Practically all of the peer reviewed evidence disagrees with you. We banned XL Bullys and it hasn't really worked thus far has it
We havent really have we? All the existing ones can still be kept with restrictions about being licenced and muzzled outside etc. If they had been completely banned eg all put down I suspect the results would be more obvious.
However even the limited ban and restrictions do seem to be having some positive effect. Most of the recent attacks have been in private homes.
"However even the limited ban and restrictions do seem to be having some positive effect. Most of the recent attacks have been in private homes. "
True. While any death is a tragedy I'd rather it was someone who chose to risk being with an XL Bully than someone who had the risk forced on them.
Well yeah the ban as is, was never going to deal with the one's granted a license. So if you want rid of them all, then you're relying on either owners handing them in to be put down, or police forcibly taking them to have them put down. That's also assuming that you can find enough vets willing to put them down, which many would refuse to do.
The stat of 19 people killed by XL Bullys in 2023 is also misleading. There's no official XL Bully breed, so you have to go off 'breed type' to make a judgement. A number of those deaths in 2023 were subsequently shown not to be by 'XL Bully' types.
Which brings me back to my original points up thread. These attacks are horrific, but a simple 'ban the breed' approach was never going to work. The people actively wanting a dangerous dog will find something else, such as the Cane Corso. We need far better breeding and ownership legislation in the UK.
Blame Maggie 🤔
No point banning shoplifting. Those wanting to steal will find a way round it or steal something else.
Ironically one of the campaigners behind the XL Bully ban is now heading up a campaign that calls for tougher sentences for people caught shoplifting. Dominic Cummings is supporting it too, which should tell you all that you need to know about how well thought through it is.
Former dog trainer at Battersea Dogs & Cats here.
1st off: if you think the dog is the problem you’re looking at the wrong end of the lead.
2nd: of the dogs I worked with Staffies were the best & most predictable. Utter buffoons most of the time. The worst were little shouty, bitey types. On the few occasions I had issues with dogs none were bull types. NONE. When you consider that over 30% of the dogs there were Staffies that should help demonstrate the reality of them as dogs.
3rd: DDA? It’s rubbish & not fit for purpose.
How do we get round it? Re-wire society? There’s a massive disconnect between one another these days. Entitlement & privilege is rife from the top to the bottom. A complete lack of awareness that your beloved fur baby might be someone else’s worst nightmare. I’ve had 9 dogs. I love them, but I hate nothing more than entitled asshole dog owners who don’t GAF. That includes your pedigree pooches to your back alley mongrels. Everybody is capable of being a fing dick.
If the dog type doesn't matter it's funny how most killings by dogs are by XL Bullys or other powerful types. How many people have been killed by a poodle?
Dog trainer? This dog trainer was killed by an "large bulldog type dog".
"“Adam would have been against any government ban.“He would have taken the view that it is the owners and breeders not the dogs who are the problem."
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/friend-scot-killed-xl-bully-30958403
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-59781502
Point of order I wouldn't want to fight a standard poodle, big strong animals!!
🤣 🤣 some folk have strange hobbies Cougar. Anybody that thinks a standard Poodle can't be dangerous has never spent much time with one. Big strong buggers. The opposite of the thing watching me type this (miniature Poodle).
It is a tricky situation and I have no idea what the solution is. As per my previous posts it was Rottweilers, Alsatians and Dobermans that were owned by WGBE's when I was younger. Dogs and people can be dangerous. The bigger they are, the more dangerous they can be.
Entitlement & privilege is rife from the top to the bottom
Yup 😕
Too many stupid idiots in this country. Imagine if we had easy access to guns. There'd be daily shootings over parking spaces, garden boundaries and all sorts of trivialities, it'd be carnage!
I'm not usually one for blanket bans, but it seems the right answer, given the levels of entitlement and stupidity.
"Anybody that thinks a standard Poodle can't be dangerous has never spent much time with one. "
I have two of them. I say again, show me the headline of a person killed by a poodle. Any dog can bite. XL Bullys can kill.
Checks list. Nope. Loads of XL Bullys. No poodles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom