Builders and tradespeople making decisions you wanted to make yourself

If it's detailed on the plans they are working to your lucky you got them.

If you wanted something specific then you need to have it on a drawing or in the spec, or ideally both. 

I'm totally sympathetic with the OP as I'd be annoyed if a trades person went ahead with something which they weren't clear on. 

Sounds like you friend isn't ready for the builders. Not knowing this stuff up front is an expensive way of going about it.
I'd tell your friend to make sure they decide on the important stuff and communicate it to the builder ASAP.

Edit: I'll caveat I chucked in a new kitchen just as we got going on an extension, so not quite the shining example I'd like to be...

As above.  It needs tobe on the plans or you give them clear instructions 

Note that when it comes to socket outlets and counter switches (oven, dishwasher etc), there are regulations to where they can be installed so sometimes there isn't a lot of choice to where some things can go. Obviously above a sink is not acceptable.

If I was installing the electrics for a kitchen, I'd want a copy of the kitchen layout as well as details of the appliances especially the oven to ensure that the cables and circuit protection are suitable for the required application.

* Where the sink and oven go in the kitchen (kitchen hasn’t been designed yet but pipes and cables need to be in the right place)
* Where sockets go and how many (generally, plus there’s a socket where the sink is preferred to go)
* Which light switches control which ceiling downlight spots (doesn’t match envisaged living area and furniture layout)

These things need to be decided before the trades come in. Without those decisions they can't do the job so they either stop on that job or make the decision for you.

I would be passed if I were in a job where the clients hadn't yet decided on the basics of what goes where.

This is where architects and project managers are useful. I understand that not everyone has the budget for those, but working without plans or a go-to person is likely to lead to trades using their own initiative and being a little more ad hoc.

These things need to be decided before the trades come in. Without those decisions they can’t do the job so they either stop on that job or make the decision for you.

Absolutely this.  They're turning up to do a job... it's not their fault if the important decisions haven't already been made.

I drew a tonne of diagrams of where everything (electrics, lighting, plumbing) needed to be before they'd finished putting up the walls when we did our ground floor extension. 

Learned my lesson when they put the loft conversion bathroom window in the wrong place and I was persuaded to live with it...  

We're currently going through the process of planning an extension.
My Wife seems to think we can just tell them to crack on, and all the ideas in our heads will magically be catered for.
Whenever I try to talk about specifics she gets quite huffy and thinks that I'm being over the top.
To be fair, I do have a propensity to over-do the detail of things. But, when spending a decent amount of wedge on something that we don't want to re-do I'd rather take my time and get every detail sorted and communicated.

draw diagrams, talk them through it, and check the buggers work as they do it for absolutely critical things that you cannot live with being not exactly where you want it.

left alone my experience is trades tend to bung stuff wherever is quickest and easiest, not necessarily where you want it.

I was proper anal about pipes, outlets etc...the thing that caught me out was where exactly I want doors and how they open.  for some reason I didn't even think of it till I was asked...

It sounds like they weren't ready for the trades. On a job I expect the client/architect to know exactly what goes where. If there are problems with the location, there's a discussion to be had and potential solutions considered and then agreed in writing.

No drawn plan, project manager, or architect.

All the tradespeople needed to do was ask, but I see why they might not want to if it might interrupt the job. Still, they could have said - sometime in the next week we'll be doing that job, you need to decide this and that.

Anyway what's done is done, an expensive lesson.

I think they expected a level of customer service to guide them (i.e. as customers they don't know what all the decisions that need to be made even are), but most trades perhaps aren't operating like that. They had some of the answers ready but the work happened before either side brought up the question.

No drawn plan, project manager, or architect.

I'm afraid you have nothing to complain about I'm afraid.

No plan of any kind (even simple drawings showing where you want things) are essential.

Without them they're going to put stuff where they think stuff should be.

(Dad was an architect so we had drawings for literally everything)

I got the sockets, radiator, cooker, sink, and other appliances exactly where I wanted them.

I talked to the installer on the kitchen before any work took place, and made sure we both understood what was going where, and where there were any quirks (plenty in my old house) I just said 'how are you going to cope with xxx being like yyyyyyy' and made sure we had it understood.  No architects, no formal drawings. But the parts list was sorted beforehand and we talked.

As the client, building a working relationship with the builder is a bit useful.
I had some set ideas, and some areas where I was happy the builder did what they felt best. Over all I’m pretty happy with how it turned out and we didn’t spend time reworking stuff.

I’m afraid you have nothing to complain about I’m afraid.

It's not me.

I do disagree about carrying out work without seeking instructions and having a conversation about these things, but from what I read here it does seem to be the modus operandi for some.

@stumpy01 you do absolutely right IMO.
I have been on the end of a lot of huffy conversations (at work, at home) due to failure to want to *think about* and then commit to a course of action.
And generally when there has been too little thinking, decision making and planning...
That's when it all goes to shit.
A bit like this kitchen.

All the tradespeople needed to do was ask,

It’s not down to them to ask. Your friend should know where he wanted stuff.

Your friend needs to take charge.

I’ve got builders in at the minute. The basic stuff I’m leaving them to it as it’s what they do. Location of important stuff I’m being clear where it needs to be.

i agree with the other posters.  you / your friend need to take charge and say what they want.  don't  expect them to ask.  though I will say if you have decent trade and you are talking to them regularly they should ask.  our kitchen fitters spotted a few issues with the design and suggested a better way of doing things which we agreed with.  tbh if they hadn't asked maybe we would have never known

Yep, different expectations of the working relationship I think.

Personally I've always been specific/anal about things and started conversations, asked them what they recommended etc. Some of them probably hated me.

I'm struggling to think of other services and suppliers where it would be like this though.

I had conversations and even gave them diagrams detailing dimensions and depths but there is still a bump in the floor in our kitchen where they didn't bury the bodies deep enough.

Absolute cowboys.

Still, lesson learnt and after I'd killed the contractors I buried them myself under a lovely  old sycamore tree up north, right in the middle of nowhere.

They'll never be found there.

Poops - take it from me; use their tools to cut them into manageable chunks; get the fire pit going - nice and hot on sycamore logs, chunks into the fire.
Wait for a windy day and then chuck the ashes into the air.
Rinse and repeat.
You might need to de-grease the fire pit dependant on how fat'n'flabby the contractor was.

Regular communication is the answer.

We're nearing the end of a complete renovation. Architects plans are really helpful, and I probably speak to the builder on average 3 times a week, sometimes per day - that's solved heaps of issues.

But even then there's been a few hiccups...

At our first site meeting with the architect and builder we discovered we had a little extra space on the new part of the building - three bedrooms - so decided to put that space into the main bedroom. Also that we'd have a wider front door than originally planned. Architect altered the plans and reissued - with big red lines showing the new stuff.

Came back when the frame was up and they'd put the extra space into the wrong bedroom and i measured the door frame as the orginal spec. Builder was somewhat embarassed, but not the end of the world, any time something goes wrong I use it as a bargaining tool. For example, we've upgraded all the door handles at his cost.

To his credit, he's got a great eye for detail and had made a few adjustments to improve on the architect's plans, as has the sparky.

No drawn plan, project manager, or architect.

There you go.

All the tradespeople needed to do was ask

Ask what? If your friend had the answer then see your previous statement. Why isn't it written down?

In my industry I'd describe this as a line of demarcation. If X wants something and Y delivers something different then where's the demarcation? Well, let's go to the plan... oh, there isn't one.

Because

It seems that having not been given specific requests

they shouldn't have been on site in the first place. Your friend is a moron. How on earth do they propose to build a new kitchen without anyone knowing where ovens and sinks are going to go, let alone then whining when it's wrong? Don't they have a pen?

get the fire pit going – nice and hot on sycamore logs, chunks into the fire.

Wait for a windy day and then chuck the ashes into the air.

Reminds me of two movies there, Pain and Gain and The Big Kebowski. 😁

Somewhat agree with Cougar...

However it wouldn't have hurt the builders to ask. That said, after recently having gone through lots of work with different builders I realise that they just. don't. care. about you and your house. EVERYTHING has to be specified exactly.

Some of my jobs:

Remove part of a wall in the garden. Apparently this means just chop it off, don't bother making neat where it met the house. Now we have holes in the house wall to fix.

Replace some doors and frames. Oh, you want us to fix the plaster after ripping the old frames out? That wasn't part of it.

Rebuild some external brickwork. In bricks to match the rest of the wall. Result: bricks yes, but horrible grey mortar that doesn't match the rest, badly pointed.

Etc etc etc. What happened to taking a bit of pride in your work? Or simply asking to clarify?

It wasn't quite cowboy level but they are certainly not getting any recommendations from me.

So yeah, I feel for the OP's friend.

A better builder would've mentioned that the plans were not ideal and asked about it before starting the job, rather than just going ahead and doing whatever they pleased just to get the job.

Here's your problem...

My wife was on site to make tea, bacon butties and decisions. She got what we wanted within the limits of our budget and what was physically possible. They still do building works here two decades on, the scarring caused by "Me designer, you builder" hasn't hurt the relationship

I hope your friend asked for a written quote.

Make a sign for the builders.

You need to make detailed plans on everything and have daily discussions with builder on what they are up to today and ensure it is as you have detailed. The architecture plans give a good idea for things like windows, doors etc,. but the builders, electricians, plumbers can still do whatever is easiest for them which they are notorious for as once it is done most people just have to live with it.

Yes keeping all over the builders is a bit of work but when I am spending £100K (which I will be next April) on an extension it needs to be exactly as I want it right down to every nut and bolt so to speak.

re work being left not fully finished, that's actually quote common as often it's different trades.

so carpenter sorts your door frame, it's the plaster that fills the holes

you need to include the phrase 'and make good' in yout requests for quotes.  that means 'doesn't look shit' when you've done the job...

anyways I'm a dab hand at filling now.  it's right up there with painting ceilings on my hate list!

I agree that your friend has ballzed up!

We had our kitchen designed, with plans for the pipework/ventilation layout down to a tee, before a brick was even laid..<br />I mean, surely you know how big the extension is going to be, adn what space (i.e 3m x 5m) you've got to work with, so you start planning a kitchen on paper/CAD early on..right?<br /><br />Please tell me they've considered windows and doors too!<br /><br />DrP

There are good tradesmen out there - only 9 days on site and we've gone from this...

to this...

to this...

Simple 3m x 3m utility, but a lot of thought went in before we even got in touch with architect (needed as in conservation area) or builder. Fully expect the roof to be on by end of tomorrow.

And we know full width would have been better, but current building costs and limited budget meant this was all we can afford for now. And it's only going to be a utility/dumping ground so no Grand Designs project! 🤣

1. How the heck has he trades on site and no clear plan shared and agreed - and on the end of the phone to make the 20 decisions a day as things arise.

2. Contracts, even verbal ones, need to include 'and make good' if required. Pulling things out = damage. And someone needs paying to fix that, and be told they are.

IMO your friend is behind the curve and I get why a tradesperson needs to crack on.

kitchen hasn’t been designed yet but pipes and cables need to be in the right place

Has your mate employed a magician?

Overheard years ago builder to customer ...i have hairy balls not crystal ones.

@dickyboy

Technically, if they had a grid of pipes covering EVERY square foot of floor, at least one will be in the right place I guess....

DrP

If you want to pay them day rate I am sure they would happily stop every half hour to ask questions.

The builder is a bit of a Muppet for going anywhere near your mate with no plans. But your mate has told them to start has 100% of the responsibility for this on his shoulders.

You know what this reminds me of? When people will throw fifteen hundred quid at the iPhone 27 Pro Ultra Extreme Special Edition, then baulk when an app costs 79p.

No drawn plan, project manager, or architect.

When I found myself in that sort of situation I got some Bright Yellow Frog Tape and a Sharpie and went round the room writing "Double Socket Here" and "<---- Sink ----->" and "Light Switch for A" etc.  We taped the floor with the position of the kitchen units etc.  This was quicker to do than producing drawings etc.  And enabled the real customer (the wife!) to visually review the layout.

All the tradespeople needed to do was ask, but I see why they might not want to if it might interrupt the job. Still, they could have said – sometime in the next week we’ll be doing that job, you need to decide this and that.

I'm a little surprised they didn't do that.  But then I picked my contractors for being the sort of people who were going to work with an amateur and keep me right in the process.  If I'd have been picking on price or availability first and foremost then it might well be that those guys are cheaper or available because they aren't as good at the "customer service" stuff.  Never exclude the possibility that they did ask someone else who said "wherever you think is best" or "just what you normally do" either...

went round the room writing “Double Socket Here”

I did that once - wrote "heating manifold here" and drew a big arrow to the outline I'd drawn while holding said manifold against the wall. Got back that evening to find the manifold installed right over the word "here" on the wall.

Yeah, the customer should have provided more direction.

But most tradespeople I know would absolutely ask about some of the stuff mentioned in the OP.

What we don't know is how easy/difficult the customer was to contact.

I did that once – wrote “heating manifold here” and drew a big arrow to the outline I’d drawn while holding said manifold against the wall. Got back that evening to find the manifold installed right over the word “here” on the wall.

I'd assume you were kidding if I hadn't experienced similar.

When I had my bathroom fitted there was one floorboard that needed replacing.

I'd already had the broken one out, made a perfect replacement (it had a complicated cut at one end where part of the board needed to allow a pipe through), and stained the top a perfect match to the rest of the floorboards.

The plumber installed it upside down and back to front "because I hadn't marked which side was the top".

You clearly hadn't left them biscuits, teabags and a kettle...

Even the cowboyist of cowboy tradesmen don't turn up to a room stripped out for a new kitchen and decide where the oven, sink and electrical points are going to go. There will have been some guidance from somebody at some point. This scenario has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

I’ve been fitting kitchens and bathrooms for nigh on 30 years and can count on the fingers of one foot the times I’ve fitted with no plan and freestyled it.  It just doesn’t happen.  I’ve been given crap plans and plans lacking in detail, but we’ve always got it written out and agreed.   There’s no point in even starting if the electrical 1st fix plan isn’t there with the kitchen as nothing will be correctly rated or in the right place.