[Closed] Builder woe

gonna need to be small claims I guess. Often just the letter before action is enough to get them to pay up and of course as ever you really should ensure that the final payment is enough to cover any snagging but too late now.

Did you have any sort of contract with them ?

Legal issues aside, I have no idea how bad your floor has blown, pretty bad I guess, but worth imo to get a big industrial dehumidifier and if you can tolerate the humming leaving it on 24 hours, until things noticeably dry out.

You might be lucky and if the tongues haven't popped out of the grooves the flooring might eventually settle down. It will certainly speed up the drying process if the floor has to be completely relaid. Most of the flooring should be reusable imo.

There is no contract - only a quote and an invoice. To be honest, I've never had a contract for building work and its always gone ok in the past though clearly I'm not very experienced and with hindsight a contract would have been a very good idea. However my understanding is that a builder must provide an acceptable level of work and a bumpy floor is not acceptable.

I phoned Citizens advice last Wednesday and they said they would phone back but haven't. You can't have an appointment due to covid which seems a bit strange as the rest of the country is back working.

The tongues haven't popped out but I'm sure the floor has been glued so will be unuseable when taken up. I suspect cost to put right will be circa 3-4k if I remove only the blown sections and change to tiles with a threshold. i don't even want to think how much replaciing the whole floor will be.

Watching with interest as I'm not sure how your going to resolve this.

Leaving aside the fact that engineered wood may look nice but is a bad idea for a kitchen floor (liquid spills, oil spatter, marking through items being dropped and excessive wear at high traffic points in front of the sink and the cooker/hob) - did you know that the screed needed to dry out fully, and the time that would take, before the floor was laid?

Small claims court is super easy but you do need to know how much your claiming for.

Get a specific flooring company around to quote

I’m sure the floor has been glued so will be unuseable when taken up.

Well no it won't be reusable if it's been glued, I didn't think it was ever glued these days.

There is no contract – only a quote and an invoice.

Yes there is - just because there's nothing in writing doesn't mean there was no contract.

The statutory implied terms under CRA2015 apply so they were still under a duty to carry out the work with reasonable care and skill.

You need to be able to evidence that they have failed in their duties - for that the best thing would be an independent expert report, perhaps from a flooring specialist, though if it is SO apparent just by looking at photos, that may well be enough.

As Woody74 says, you also need to know the cost before you claim - get a quote to redo/replace and repair any damage to the kitchen.

I would write to them beforehand giving them 14 days to give you proposals to rectify, after which you issue a small claim.

If they're a legitimate building company then small claims court.

However, if they're cowboy types then they'll just "disappear" and it will be hard to get them to cough up in the event that a judgement is made against them.

Where did you get the flooring from? Could they recommend a good fitter who could advise / quote for the work?

Get on to the flooring manufacturer
Find out how long a self levelling compound should be left before fitting
Doubt it will be months, more like 1 week plus 1 extra day per mm
You need the screed to dry but not too quickly or shrinks cracks or delam could occur
Then try to reason with builder
If you do go small claims log every cost incurred along the way

I was told by the builders that the screed needed around a week to dry, so when the floor went down I didn't think anything of it and it looked great to start with. Susequently I have found this not to be true for wood floor though you can tile on it after a week to 10 days apparently.

Its all very well saying get this company to come out etc etc but in the real world good flooring companies are at max capacity and are not looking to come out and value a mistake when they could be quoting somewhere else for a nice fresh new job.

I have spoken to the manufacturer of the flooring and they have given me a rough moisture content percentage. I'm going to get a hydrometer and measure the moisture in the subfloor -  it will obviously be way over the spec of the floor.

Builders are not cowboys, operate as a ltd company and most of the stuff has been done to a reasonable standard (brickwork/beams/roof etc). The sparky and plumber they used were pretty good. Plasterwork is dreadful. Clearly I should have employed a flooring specialist but they said they had done loads of floors.

Its all very well saying get this company to come out etc etc but in the real world good flooring companies are at max capacity and are not looking to come out and value a mistake when they could be quoting somewhere else for a nice fresh new job.

Well, it depends how much you want it rectified. You're not going to get anywhere with any sort of proceedings until you know how much it will cost.

If you are happy to ask the builders to come back and rectify at no cost to you then that sounds like a winner, but if they're not prepared to do so you will have to get someone else to look at it.

Some household insurance includes free legal advice. Some of my friends have used this to deal with dodgy builders.

What moisture content have the flooring company given you, its normally relative humidity that's measured (less than 75% typically required) which is quite different to moisture content.

I've been through it with a roofer. Not a lot of fun to be honest.
Firstly, it takes months and months - a year in my case from start to finish.
The sheriff (I'm in Scotland) has one objective and that is to get you to go away. If you won't, then the next objective is to avoid a hearing, so they try to get you to reach agreement between yourselves with their 'help'. Their help could also be described as bullying and intimidation.

First meeting was by telephone. Only the other side didn't show up. Had a hospital appointment and while I'm sure this was genuine, I'm also sure it was purposefully booked on that date so as to frustrate the process. Sheriff didn't give a damn.
A new telephone meeting was booked for the following month but not before the sheriff had done his best to try to put me off going ahead.
The next meeting did go ahead. As was to be expected, the roofer lied through his teeth, came up with a ridiculous settlement, the sheriff put pressure on me to accept, I said no, another meeting scheduled for the following month and so on...

In the end, an in-person meeting took place at the court. The self-important busybody sheriff is really in his element now. The playground bully is unleashed in full as he tried to get me to accept some sh*tty settlement. They don't let you speak, shout you down if you say something they don't like... it's pretty disgraceful to be honest.
Inbetween the bullying, he did a good job of playing dumb, eg the scumbag roofer conceded that the chimney stack needed repointing even though he'd done it twice in the past 12 months. Sheriff either couldn't or wouldn't apply common sense and accept that the roofer's work was substandard. I would have had to get an expert witness in for that and they cost a fair bit and you're unlikely to get the full cost back and you may not get any of it back.
In my case, no award for expenses even though I'd had to have a report done because they kept going on about the burden of proof even though it was so obvious that the work was substandard. I'd had other expenses too.

Anyhow, what helped me in the end was that report done by a third party, photographic evidence and quotes to put the work right. The roofer agreed to pay back an amount. He then later appealed for time to pay. Was given the three months he asked for. The court does not help you get your money back, it's up to you and it's a battle. I didn't have to get sheriff officers (bailiffs) involved but thought I might. That costs (the other party pays if you can get the money) but you have to wait for some weeks after the final payment is due to instruct sheriff officers. I believe the system is better for the claimant in England but it's shocking in Scotland.

So, in short, get a report if you can, a couple of quotes, take photos for evidence and strap in for a long, painful, frustrating ride. As has been said, if you haven't got a reliable address for him, forget it.
If I had to make the decision again, I'm not sure I'd bother. I don't know, it was a few grand and lot for me but I dunno, I'm not convinced it was worth it.

As for getting another tradesman to sort it out, it's difficult. No one would touch my roof because they didn't want to get involved with someone else's work. I'm booked in with someone now who said he'll do it but he is going to do it all again. It sounds dramatic but the work is so bad, that so much needs to be done, that I think starting again is the best idea. I did a quote for a repair job but I don't trust a damn thing the original cowboy has done and the price difference wasn't that much.
Anyhow, I don't know if that helps you but I guess just be open to them starting again. Not sure how possible that is seeing as the kitchen is in place. Sorry to hear what has happened, it really is a horrible thing to go through and I only wish someone would do something about the building trade because these people really have the power to ruin people's lives as well as their properties. I'm not holding my breath though. Good luck!

Some household insurance includes free legal advice. Some of my friends have used this to deal with dodgy builders.

Definitely worth looking at your policy and seeing if there is either legal advice or anything specific about building work (some policies have cover for things you really wouldn't expect)

you can tile on it after a week to 10 days apparently

Also not true. Tiles can’t be laid until
Screed is fully dry also. Which is 1mm/day, they might be more tolerant to moisture, but it’s still bad practice to tile early, as they have no give and will pop as the screed dries.

Also not true. Tiles can’t be laid until
Screed is fully dry also. Which is 1mm/day, they might be more tolerant to moisture, but it’s still bad practice to tile early, as they have no give and will pop as the screed dries.

I know a guy who's whole business is just fixing this issue - normally by injecting resin under the blown tiles, very common apprently. Mostly builders rushing to get off a job.

Not sure you can apply the same pricipal to the wood floor sadly 🙁

Can you confirm whether the floor had new {concrete} screed, and how thick, or self leveling compound on an existing concrete floor?
Two quite different things and drying times.

Did the builder really say " that was always going to happen"
If thats the case then why go ahead

My bro took a motorcycle dealers thru small claims, had an erratic fast idle so the mechanic helped by dropping a washer down the spark plug hole. Then killed the motor

Same as the pilot, ass of a jp 1st go around, much better 2nd guy ad it took 2 sittings. Got some money back but didn't add costs of proof to claim, engineering report, shipping engine round, etc

@sharkbait

Its new screed to a depth of around 70-80mm on top of a block and beam floor. Its the utility area which I wanted incorporating into the kitchen.

I still owe them about the amount it would prob cost to fix. Ive paid all other invoices on the nail.

In contrast to the negative voices, I'd suggest that it's (a) worth going ahead if you are out-of-pocket for more than a few hundred pounds and (b) a deliberately simple process. As others have said, if it's a legit Ltd company and in reasonable financial health, then even you moving to take action may kick them into gear to sort things out. The costs to you are minimal, so you don't really have much to lose.

Get your official reports and cost estimates and clearly document what happened on what dates. Use one of the (many) on-line guides, write to the company formally, giving them 14 days to settle and if they don't - just file the papers. There's a good chance it won't get that far, but if you end up with a hearing then go - it's quite an interesting thing to do, and you just need to have your ducks in a row to communicate your side of the argument clearly with the documents to back it up.

I've had 3 organisations settle based on a letter (one letting agent, two on-line retailers), 2 judgements by default (one an individual, one flooring supplier) and 1 full award with costs (ebay seller) for a hearing where the other party didn't bother to turn up. A couple of those were for relatively modest amounts, one for several thousand pounds. None of them was stressful. All were satisfying 😉

Don't waste your time with CAB - they're helpful for queries about benefits and... that's about it.

Well there's your answer.
Withold final payment till its fixed by them, or a small claims couty finds in your favor if they sue for monies witheld

3" of poured screed will take some time to dry out, they should know this, its their job to.

@-m-
I agree it's simple but the process is open to abuse and the sheriff/JP have no desire to clamp down on that. To be fair, they probably can't.
There is a certain type of person who is attracted to that kind of role too and they are often at the more arsey end of the spectrum.

I think it's also a lot more difficult when it comes to building work, where you often need expensive expert witnesses. Your examples seem much better suited to the small claims court. Mine would have been better going to the ordinary court but the costs of taking legal action were prohibitive.
To be honest, I'm not sure how I could have done anything better, I had evidence coming out of my ears and it was all presented perfectly well, but I found the whole experience to be an absolute disgrace to be honest.
I think covid has made things more difficult with the courts too as it has most things.
Not that I'm suggesting the OP doesn't give it a go, just know that you may well be in for a rough ride and don't expect to get justice.

I totally agree about CAB though. I'm still waiting for them to call me back. Been two years now.

"I still owe them about the amount it would prob cost to fix."

As singletrackmind said: there's your answer! Don't pay, get them to sort it, and pay once you are happy. No need to go to court. You've been lucky the problem came to light in the time it did.

Use an RICS surveyor. Get a full report 500ish quid. That is your basis for a claim.

Not that I’m suggesting the OP doesn’t give it a go, just know that you may well be in for a rough ride and don’t expect to get justice.

Yes, agreed that there are no guarantees, and clearly your experience of the system was a negative one - and it does sound like the person who heard the case maybe wasn't terribly helpful. In contrast, when mine ruled in my favour he then started asking me about my expenses for the day and was concerned I was under-estimating them...

I tend to take the view that, having pursued all other options, taking action gives me some chance of getting a resolution. Taking no action gives me no chance. If I take action and don't get a resolution then I'll feel aggrieved - which is only the same as I would have done if I'd done nothing. In the process I'm forcing the other party to invest some time in responding to the case (otherwise I get judgement by default), so there is some "value" for my fees in any case.

Agreed - if you haven't paid in full then just withhold until you are happy. I did this with a kitchen fitting - I ended up paying other suppliers to fix some issues and others I have just lived with. After a year or so they chased on the debt and I just showed them the spreadsheet of costs I had already incurred (ie, getting an electrician in to provide a certificate for the new work) and invited them to come back to fix the remaining issues and told them I would pay the final bill minus any costs incurred and for my time in overseeing the work.

I never heard from them again.

yes, they are witholding all certification. Now bearing in mind I paid for a private buiding regs firm to inspect and I paid that separately and directly to the building control, surely at least building regs certs are mine to collect from them?

The electric certs can as you say be arranged from another electrician if need be I assume.

^ Yes - the electrics can be tested by any electrician. I also got a trusted heating engineer to recheck and fix where necessary the work done by their plumber as it was shocking – I could have done better and I am shit at plumbing work.

Fortunately for me, I took pictures of the building work as it was ongoing (ie, took pictures of the steels as they were going in, showing how they were fixed, direction of joists, digging out, piers etc). For me it wasn't that they withheld the certificate - they simply forgot to ask the building control team to come back to inspect ongoing work after their initial inspection. Fortunately the Building Control team were happy to sign the work off based on my photographic evidence without having to open up any of the new ceilings!

I have used the small claims court in England both as a claimant and a defendant a number of times and I can honestly say that on each occasion the process was as painless as legal proceedings can be, the judge every time was brilliant (even when I lost one) and at no time did I feel the court was trying to divert having to hear the case.

I would absolutely go through with it in your case. The most you're going to lose is the £80 court fee.

^^^^^^^^
I think there's pressure on the courts to clear the backlog caused by covid so the fewer cases they hear the better.
Perhaps I was just unlucky but I got a sheriff who was a self-important bully.
It's hard when it's your house as well and you're having to live with it and then you can't get it fixed.
But the OP seems to be a long way off court as yet, should be the last option as far as I'm concerned.

Standard screed on block and beam floor is usually 1 mm per day, so your talking 70-80 days for what you’ve said. Only thing we sometimes use is a DPM, usually a expoxy based liquid membrane that is put down prior to flooring, but we’ve only ever done for vinyl flooring and I doubt it your builders would have used anything like that.
Personally I’d buy one of the small portable dehumidifier think there about £100 and try it out, what have you got to lose. Think the big commercial ones might be too efficient and dry it out too fast the small domestic ones aren’t as powerful.

Had similar issue as OP. Tiled floor over suspended floor. Lack of cement board base and failed to lay tiles properly. Tiles started lifting within weeks.

Various conversations with builder. He was trying to avoid accepting responsibility.
Kitchen is fitted over tiles as well.

In the end we made him a one time offer, expired in 14 days. Pay up as per quote to fix, no more responsibility for other snags. He can walk away. To be honest we wouldn’t want him back in the house anyway. It was settled.
We still have a creaking floor but do have a fighting fund for when we do decide to fix it.