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Poll by Sky News sugest 66% of british population favour nationalisation of PT steelworks.
Which is similar to the proportion of working adults who now make no net contribution to the running of the state.
[I]Of course we did. Being 100% self-sufficient wasn't an arbitrary ambition, but a potential necessity. It doesn't change the fact though that we could have been self-sufficient if required and massively reduced the amount we relied on imported food. By your logic, an industry isn't worth keeping unless it has a monopoly on supply. [/I]
Oh FFS we've NEVER been self-sufficient in food, at least not since the population explosion of the 18th century!
This graph may help explain why:
In the 1980's we were produced about 80% of our own food.
That's great news, got a source for that?
with modern, high intensity farming techniques we could probably be self sufficient if we really wanted or needed to be.
Hmmmm. Google phosphates crisis. (Not that that is relevant to my point - if your comment above is correct I'm wrong in what I said.)
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/feb/24/uk-will-need-to-import-over-half-of-its-food-within-a-generation-farmers-warn ]The Grundian[/url]
Self-sufficiency in food in the UK has been eroded since the 1980s: about 60% of food currently consumed here is grown here, down from nearly 80% in the mid 1980s, even though more varieties of food previously thought exotic are now grown in the UK.
Hmmmm. Google phosphates crisis.
I am not suggesting that high intensity farming is a good solution. That is a whole argument in itself, but it would be possible for the UK to produce enough food to feed the population if we really wanted to.
That it probably doesn't make basic economic sense, is one thing but it's possible in theory.
I'm less relieved now. 60pc is less encouraging than 80pc and they're building on farmland and raising the population as we speak.
Just reported on BBC news now that the starting salaries at PT is/was £30K. Surprised me, would have thought it would be much lower.
and the starting salary for someone who kicks a ball around is much higher, id have thought they would be grateful to be paid in sweets.
It would also help if we could all develop a "buy British" policy when possible, rather than the very Yorkshire selfish "I'll not be ripped off".
A "buy British" policy here means a "don't buy British" policy everywhere else in the world. I doubt there are many manufacturers here that would want to live without an export market.
doubt there are many manufacturers here that would want to live without an export market.
Isn't that what we are already seeing...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/31/britain-courts-fate-on-brexit-with-worst-external-deficit-in-his/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35931968
I think this sums it up
[img] 
?oh=121ca2be378ce00a132529227aa8dbdf&oe=5794D03E[/img]
[img] 
?oh=6b6833fae8cd3e3cd329c891add02a07&oe=57773E1D[/img]
@kona the French promote "buy French", restaurants make a point of saying their meat is French etc. Obviously steel is a bit different but I do believe we as citizens have to take action and not think everything is the governments responsibility
Oh FFS we've NEVER been self-sufficient in food, at least not since the population explosion of the 18th century!
Yup. That's what the evidence suggests to me.
Paul Mason popped up on Newsnight the other day. Here's a longer piece by him
https://medium.com/mosquito-ridge/steel-crisis-they-do-not-give-a-shit-86516750a1e0#.kbaxd0pip
b r - Member
...Oh FFS we've NEVER been self-sufficient in food, at least not since the population explosion of the 18th century!...
True, but then we had an empire to exploit and the world's most powerful navy, so there was no chance of supply lines being cut for long enough to make a difference. In WW2 4 million odd Indians died of starvation that we might eat. Couldn't see that happening now.
If the UK was isolated now we'd be turning up our toes in record time.
I suppose it's time I came to terms with the decline of the UK as a manufacturer after all successive governments don't care/understand its importance. These governments are fully supported by people living here who will buy any thing as long as its cheap with no thought to the future. Al least they and there kids will never complain about lack of jobs or opportunity, low pay, underfunded services and the general decline of our society. After all it's not as though there are examples in the world of successful manufacturing and mixed economy countries is there.
I wonder why Tata are planning to purchase a steel manufacturer in Germany?
Does Osborne care? How many of those that will be affected are Tory voters? How many of those who would benefit from China trade are likely to be Tory voters?
What irks me is a leadership should look after all spectrums of political and parts of society. It shows a depth and breadth of leadership.
Thanks for that gwaelod. As on a lot of subjects, Paul Mason absolutely nails it.
A great piece here on the only 'industry' that is actually deemed worthy of being bailed out....
In Shotton in North wales, when the steelworks suddenly stopped producing steel and became a reprocesing centre 12,000 workers lost their jobs, biggest single redundancy in europe at the time.
Lots of them just signed on or went on disability, due to ill health, and if youve ever worked on production at a steelworks by 55 youre knackered.
A few of the brave invested in small buisness, shotton had a lot of pound type shops, selling market traders stuff, most failed, some went onto drive buses and lgv,s, and other low paid jobs.
Today shotton has a pets at home, b and m store, an asda and thats about it, a few large industrial units assembling stuff and a few making stuff for sale, the towns locally are run down the local air base closed many years ago and is now derelict.
Drugs and crime are on the increase, the local council is spending millions on new traffic lights and junctions, while closing stuff down and now the workers left at Shotton may be for the chop, 800 plus workers loosing their jobs, with all the contractors and outside workers also going.
Then theres the loss of training, skills base and good wages, all face the people of Port Talbot and south Wales.
Then theres the loss of training, skills base and good wages, all face the people of Port Talbot and south Wales.
It was noted that the only other major employer in the area is Amazon, where everyone is on the [s]living[/s] minimum wage, and zero hours contracts.
Seems the aim of successive governments to de-skill the economy until thats what everyone is on
These governments are fully supported by people living here who will buy any thing as long as its cheap with no thought to the future.
This is the crux of it. There is a collective myopia in this country which has been created and encouraged by successive governments, both tory and labour. The general view is that we are entitled to the wealth, security and stability we enjoy but expect to bear none of the responsibilities that go with it. One of those responsibilities should be supporting industries and communities in times of hardship. We have the collective resources, skills and power to do it, but sadly not the will.
I'd add to that the no matter how massive the contribution an industry has made to the countries wealth in the past, this is instantly forgotten the second it gets into trouble. Then it immediately becomes a pariah, unworthy of state assistance.
There is only one exception to this. One industry that is forgiven any transgression, no matter how enormous and distasteful!
@hora see Cameron's comments on Labour's track record on steel, anyome trying to make a politcal point Tory vs Labour is very much an opportunist clutching at straws. We are as usual going round in circles on stw but the state of manufacturing is our responsibility as citizens. It is us who have made it what it is.
@jambalaya- you are right no political party/government can be blamed more than the other but the one in power must show some leadership. The moment China increased tariffs on a steel made in the UK, then we should unilaterally do the same. In fact if you are a believer in free trade (as I am), then all countries that add tariffs to to any UK imported goods should have the same done to anything they try to import to the UK. The same should be done to any product imported at below the cost of production.
Whilst we are on it, how many on here are driving around in a car not made in the UK? What else have you bought that you should have bought made in the UK?
If your skin and have no choice thats fine but if you can afford it buy UK first is a moral responsibility you have for be wealthy (2 holidays a year? your rich). If we won't help ourselves and our friends family and neighbors, who'll help us. And while I'm on me high moral horse, are buy your stuff from tax dodging suppliers? Yes well shut it about the state of services from the NHS through to your local council. Tax is what pays for it all, the more UK made kit we buy, the more aggressive avoiders we don't buy from the tax take there is. And relax....
In its present state Port Talbot is simply not a viable business.
The only questions that matter therefore are:
1. Does it have a realistic potential to become a viable business again?
2. What are odds for/against that happening?
3. What is it going to cost?
4. Is anyone in the private sector with the necessary capital willing to take that risk?
5. If not, is the UK Govt./taxpayer willing to take that risk?
I suspect the answers are:
1. Yes. The site profitability can be improved, e.g. by increasing production of top end premium products.
2. Dunno, but even if the necesary investment were a given, the excess global steel capacity probably means the competition for that premium end of the market is going to be very fierce and there will probably only be a few winners, and lots of losers. So it's probably a high risk bet.
3. At a guess somewhere between £5Bn to £10Bn over 5+ years.
4. The board of Tata understand the market and the risks better than anyone else, and they've decided to fold on Port Talbot and Tata Steel UK. It's difficult to imagine any of their major competitors deciding they know better and buying Port Talbot: both Tata and its competitors will already have other steelworks in their groups where they have decided they will get a better (chance of a) return on the sort of investment Port Talbot would need.
5. Given the above, it's difficult to see the UK Govt. deciding to nationalise Port Talbot and the rest of Tata Steel UK.
Seems the aim of successive governments to de-skill the economy until thats what everyone is on
You seem to be either (1) crediting politicians with supernatural powers or (2) making things up. Neither are true and, like Masons gibberish about not giving a shit, are obviously divorced from reality. One only has to look at Parliamentary briefing notes to see the list of measures that governments have already implemented to address some of the issues facing the industry. But they are immortal and we should know by now, possessing of limited power and resources.
We have seen time and time again that politics can trump the basic laws of economics in the short term, but economic reality always wins in the end. It was ever thus..look at the failure of the €.
BTW binners - I am not a banks apologist but - why keep ignoring all the penal policies that the givernment has implemented agains their so-called friends - remuneration caps, extra taxes via levies, restrictions on certain activities etc.? Arguments simply lose credibility when wrapped up in obvious untruths. What's the point?
If your skin and have no choice thats fine but if you can afford it buy UK first is a moral responsibility you have for be wealthy (2 holidays a year? your rich).
That's a weird definition of morals
If we won't help ourselves and our friends family and neighbors, who'll help us.
There is a long history that shows protectionism does not help. Merely a ST sugar fix. You need real policies not simple sound bites.
And while I'm on me high moral horse, are buy your stuff from tax dodging suppliers?
Guilty as charged - used Google's free search engine to improve my knowledge of global steel; bought a book from Kindle to help with work and had a very average cup of coffee from Starbucks. I hang my head in shame. Anyone else or are we all ethically pure?
at least you are honest thm, you'll have nowt to moan about then since knowingly supporting tax dodgers is your thing. Are you in manufacturing? How does your line of employment get funded?
I never mentioned protectionism (tariffs should only be used to level the fair trade field), I said buying UK made stuff if possible even if it cost more. There's plenty of us that can afford it, and it's not a weird moral to say those that can afford it should make purchases that keep people in work in the UK (to think otherwise is selfish). Those UK workers can then pay tax here. You can then have your hospital, school, road or what ever else you think is not your responsibility to pay for.
None of us is perfectly clean on the payment to tax dodgers/avoiders (BT, Tesco, Vodaphone, Amazon and loads more). When ever possible, once I know what they are up to tax wise I don't use them. BT has me by the bo..ocks though, there will be a time though and they can swivel.
It's about what you think is right and I don't think its right to help these companies not pay there way. You can disagree, let hope A&E is there next time you need it.
at least you are honest thm
Well you did bring morals into the debate...
since knowingly supporting tax dodgers is your thing
Oh dear spoke too soon, back with the devil's lot again
None of us is perfectly clean on the payment to tax dodgers/avoiders (BT, Tesco, Vodaphone, Amazon and loads more)
Shall we start a club for the morally reprehensible of STW? We can be founder members and many to follow for sure....
I don't think its right to help these companies not pay there way.
Don't be too hard on yourself, you are not alone. And if it's just the two of us, the pint's on me.
let hope A&E is there next time you need it.
Indeed, let's hope so!
There are reports today that Port Talbot might be closed in as little as six weeks! As someone who grew up in the town that is crazy.
easy to do switch off blast furnace allow to cool, turn off furnaces allow to cool and sell off all the stock, make workers redundant, thats what happened at my old steelworks
think it rather depends on what example you pick- remember Rolls Royce being baled put?There is a long history that shows protectionism does not help
What about when the US baled out the ariline industry post 911 - that even went on to make a profit
What about the banks recently - they will be turned around.
Some folk simply think the market is perfect even when things like this happen. You are one of them so forgive me for not wanting to hear your one sided evidence. The results on bales outs or protectionism is very very mixed t and your point wa ideological rather than evidence based.
Like a broken record - you will still be saying it in 30 years time]]IMHO that shows that with enough will politics can trump over economics. I accept the jury is still out on that one though but clearly, as its till operational, claiming it has failed is just wishful thinking on your part]look at the failure of the €.
No amount of subsidy would have done the buggy whip manufacturers any good in the great buggy whip downturn of the 1890s - damn those bicycle manufacturers.
Much as I think the Tories are the nasty peasant crushing party, we can't blame the govt for the failure of PT - but we can blame them for the lack of strategic planning, because what's happening was predictable.
Private capital is always going to look after its own interests, so there's only the govt to look after the weal of its citizens. A succession plan should have been made 5-10 years ago.
There's no surprise in what's happening. For a business to survive it has to continually upgrade, diversify, or die. The steel industry should be well aware of that because that was the secret of the great master Carnegie.
easy to do switch off blast furnace allow to cool, turn off furnaces allow to cool and sell off all the stock, make workers redundant, thats what happened at my old steelworks
And a £1 billion clean up bill just for Port Talbot according to the Financial Times.
The £450m pension fund deficit is supposed to be part of the problem too. If it does go tits up then the pensioners could lose 1/4 of their pensions.
And a £1 billion clean up bill just for Port Talbot according to the Financial Times.
massive amount of polution from the coke ovens,oil leaks,polluted water leaks, asbestos, and heavy metals, the list goes on.
and then a supermarket and low cost housing builder builds on the site eventually
The £450m pension fund deficit is supposed to be part of the problem too. If it does go tits up then the pensioners could lose 1/4 of their pensions.
pensions are guaranteed by the government scheme to protect them, unles they change the rules again
The pension is a major headache as is the fact that Tata is now looking at a merger with Tyssen - K so I imagine they would prefer a UK supplier to be taken out of the market - so let's hope the government knows what it's doing.
A succession plan should have been made 5-10 years ago.
And what would that have looked like? Would it have imagined a doubling of Chinese production, a collapse in commodity prices and the extent of job losses seen to date? If so, what would they have done about it?
teamhurtmore - Member
"A succession plan should have been made 5-10 years ago."
And what would that have looked like? Would it have imagined a doubling of Chinese production, a collapse in commodity prices and the extent of job losses seen to date? If so, what would they have done about it?
Dunno.
When I was in business I had contingency plans for all sorts of eventualities - including a bank crash - but I had no knowledge of the future.
If I had that ability I would be sitting on the beach at Monaco right now being fed peeled grapes by scantily clad lovelies and be having my feet bathed in champagne by bankers...
If a simple soul like me can see the need for contingency plans, then surely the govt has economic experts who can point out potential risks and come up with similar contingency plans for strategic industries - otherwise what's the point of them?
And what would that have looked like? Would it have imagined a doubling of Chinese production, a collapse in commodity prices and the extent of job losses seen to date? If so, what would they have done about it?
It would have looked like Port Talbot starting its restructuring and upgrading 5 years sooner, and I suspect that would have ensured its future, since the investment made would probably have meant that by now it would have been well placed to be the one of the winners of the race to supply the top end steel sheet products.
And you can see their advice and the extent of their planning on various briefings - it's all on the government website. The idea that they have done nothing or not though about it, is pretty far fetched IMO
But let's take Mason's criticism that Javed is/was unable to provide Tata with long term stability - what a ridiculous accusation in a commodity industry but typical of the the hogwash being bandied around this week. As you indicate if Javed was that impressive, he wouldn't be wasting his time being business secretary - he would be in Monaco already
If a simple soul like me can see the need for contingency plans, then surely the govt has economic experts who can point out potential risks and come up with similar contingency plans for strategic industries - otherwise what's the point of them?
Businesses barely understand the obvious risks that face their own business, let alone the hard to predict ones. It's completely unrealistic that government should understand the businesses of others in a variety of sectors well enough to prepare contingency plans is unrealistic.
teamhurtmore - Member
...As you indicate if Javed was that impressive, he wouldn't be wasting his time being business secretary - he would be in Monaco already
Well he can't have my lovelies or grapes, but he can have the bankers and the used champagne. And he must sit downwind from me because onions and bean tacoes have consequences.. 🙂
As you indicate if Javed was that impressive, he wouldn't be wasting his time being business secretary - he would be in Monaco already
THM much as I admire and agree with your low opinion of politicians, your unfailing faith in economics and business is hardly borne out by facts is it? Economists and business people, and businesses and the private sector as a whole get things spectacularly wrong so often it's difficult to lend any credence to anything they say over what politicians do. I don't want to start another banking debate, but if what you say is true then surely the banking crisis and all the catastrophic results from it would never have happened?
unfailing faith in economics
Ask 4 economics a question get 5 answers
banking crisis and all the catastrophic results
The banking crises of 2008 was small beans compared to the 1929 crash and imo history will show 2008 was nothing compared to the Greek default of 2017/18 (?). Its all relative and economic cycles are normal
Aye boom and bust is normal within the fantastic market system of capitalism
Predictions of Greek/EU/Euro decimation are your ask 4 economists question with the added flavour of their own political views drastically altering the opinion.
Good post Daz
Few if us have any respect for politicians but the argument that the market is perfect/will sort it - dark satanic mills anyone?Sweat shops? CHild labour? - is seriously flawed. Regulation is a reaction to what it delivers which is , often and certainly if left unfettered, morally repugnant- at its extreme to all- at its margins we are back to ones own personal politics.
When I was in business I had contingency plans for all sorts of eventualities - including a bank crash
What was you contingency for that? You built pens so you could barter for livestock?
your unfailing faith in economics and business is hardly borne out by facts is it?
My what? What on earth does that mean? You might as well say you have unerring faith in fish or dogs or any other very broad "catch all". Economics is simply a discipline that "helps" people in their every day task of allocating scarce resources. We are all economists by definition and that makes it a very broad church. Ditto business.
Economists and business people, and businesses and the private sector as a whole get things spectacularly wrong
You mean they are fallible? True...
so often it's difficult to lend any credence to anything they say over what politicians do.
May be, may be not. As above tends to be advisable to use some discretion. But successful people tend to learn as much, if not more, from mistakes than from failures.
I don't want to start another banking debate
Phew
but
There's always a but isn't there?
Jamba - the coming Greek defaul? Where do the exposures lie now? Compare that wth the utter devastation of the Greek economic and social life that they (especially the young) have experienced - all caused and exacerbated by a flawed political concept that flew in the face of economic reality. Occasionally you...edit, must not feed...
Anyway, Marrs on in a moment and there's bound to be a nice politician on with all the answers. All will become clear no doubt.
Guardian now reporting losses are actually £2.5 million a day, pension, last year £129 million was pumped in the pension scheme, which has a current liability of 14.5bn.
Oh, and earlier this year, industrial action was threatened when Tata tried to close the pension scheme. Oops.
Cliche but
a pensions expert, said Tata Steel’s UK operations are a “pension fund with a business tagged on”.
Oh Mason v Flanders on Marr......how will chippy fair again his erstwhile predecessor?
Papers this morning reporting government new "rules" re buying British. New procurement rules. I wonder how they define British - some are very unhappy if that includes foreign ownership 😉
14.5 billion? How many ex steelworkers are there? Or is the heat in possession of some restorative quality that extends your life by 200 years?
14.5 billion? How many ex steelworkers are there? Or is the heat in possession of some restorative quality that extends your life by 200 years?
Flanders wins by a KO in first minute. Sense above vitriole. No wonder she is paid £400k (apparently) and he is stuck in batter.
Marr to John McD...."and [b]specifically[/b]...." 😉
14.5 billion? How many ex steelworkers are there? Or is the heat in possession of some restorative quality that extends your life by 200 years?
Lets see.
There's around 130 000 workers in the fund. 14.5 billion pounds, so a bit over £100 000 in the pot per person.
£100 000 on the open market will buy you an annual pension of around 4-5k I guess.
Of course, those workers will be retiring on annual pensions of a lot more than 5k.
outofbreath - Member
"When I was in business I had contingency plans for all sorts of eventualities - including a bank crash"
What was you contingency for that? You built pens so you could barter for livestock?
I was in North Queensland, no need to barter for livestock when feral game is so readily available and fish are thick in the water. 🙂
For a bank crash I expected a return to normality after 2-3 months for the banks that survived, but a longterm recession. And the strategy for that was:
Businesswise - I owned all stock and property and ran no accounts that could not be paid out of ready cash. I worked on the principle a bank crash would be temporary, but the following downturn probably longterm.
Personally - I adopted the practice of some Mormon friends had of having a few months supply of food and essentials in the home.
And for when everything totally crashes, a bicycle. 🙂
Vinneyh are there really that many active members?
Also the liability is only one side of the equation, the pension scheme will have offsetting assets.
Quite surprised there would be a massive deficit on a British steel scheme given (I assume) high mortality rates, but like British coal.
Being a child of the good lady Thatcher I'm suitably critical of loss making businesses, however you live and learn and should that approach be applied to UK plc we would be shutting up shop completely and moving to India.
So whilst we may be able to shuffle debt around long enough to retire with comfort our kids are probably going to need this steelworks to make stuff when the pound is devalued sufficiently to make imports impossible, the ponzi sheme of selling that stuff to each other collapses and our oil investment are worth jack.
If ever there was a bubble waiting to burst its here....
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments
Getting lectures from a boy who's never had to balance a houshold budget just adds to the farce. 😉
So both politicians said essentially the same thing on Marr
Steel is an important industry - strategic if you want a better sound bite
Gov has a role to play in terms of facilitating the sale to a new buyer
We support measures to prevent illegal dumping of steel
Phew, no more need have petty party politics getting in the way.
Time for the tough negotiations to start.
Humour me here please people, I've skimmed this thread and it seems there's no easy option.
What would happen if the government bought out PT (and possibly the rest of the steel making industry) as a supplier for capital projects such as road/rail/defence etc? They could supply steel for government contracts with the necessary adjustments in the contract price to reflect the fact that they'd be getting the steel free.
If Tata are losing a million a day, has anyone worked out how much would we be spending on supporting people by paying them benefits and supporting them with the problems that long term deprivation results in? If it comes out at around 365 million a year then it would be worth propping up PT.
Living in a part of the prosperous south in my luxury mansion sipping champagne with gold flakes in it and eating unicorn steaks (I ****in wish!) I've seen what closing a big plant can do to the area surrounding it as Ford's Dagenham plant, and the surrounding satellite plants, are now a shadow of what they formerly were, even in my lifetime. At least here though people have some other options to move into, what it will do to a place like PT where the whole area depends on the plant for its economic existence doesn't bear thinking about. Some of the inlaws live in Scunny as well so they could be next.
Of course, those workers will be retiring on annual pensions of a lot more than 5k.
The pensions issue is an entirely separate one. For decades the entire country, both public and private sector alike doled out pensions which were way beyond what they could afford, in effect borrowing from future generations on the ridiculous assumption that the good times would continue forever. It's hardly fair to now punish pensioners of individual businesses or sectors when the problem was a systemic one, and grossly unfair to use that as a stick with which to beat steelworkers with.
edit: I've just read that the govt could shoulder the pension liability to enable a sale. That would seem like the proper approach.
Vinneyh are there really that many active members?
Active means alive. There will be many ex employees who are now working elsehwere who are entitled to a pension
Re losses per day £1m vs £2.5m shows how quickly losses can change, how hard they are to quantify.
@dazh govt has a scheme now to protect pensions so they (we) are on the hook whichever way if the company goes bust
@spurs from what I understand the losses are about £90k pa per worker although this only includes steel workers not the supply chain
@tmh will catch Marr later sounds another interesting show
Since there is a lot of talk re money and economics - it's worth remembering that economics is a social science and therefore very much related to politics i.e. the politcial stance of an economist will influence their economic work.
What would happen if the government bought out PT (and possibly the rest of the steel making industry) as a supplier for capital projects such as road/rail/defence etc? They could supply steel for government contracts with the necessary adjustments in the contract price to reflect the fact that they'd be getting the steel free.
Governments are rubbish at business; they're not even that great at government.
How much steel do you think the government buys in a year?
How dare you - some of us hold fond memories of when the civil service etc. worked under similar procurement rules
Montego vans with rusty doors hinges from new, creak. Long afternoons spent sleeping in the sun when the pickup had broken down. Passenger window dropping three inches when you hit a bump.
Halcyon days I tell you! 😀
Dazh, for a separate issue (?) pensions seem to playing a remarkably central role!!
It would be good to have some help with some of this logic. When foreigners own so-called strategic industries in the UK or are awarded (unprofitable contracts), that is taxpayers subsidising Jonny Foreigner and a scandal. But when we use tax payers' money to take on a foreign company's liabilities, to minimise their losses and to facilitate a sale to (most
Ikely) another foreign company that is perfect logic.
Confused? Me too.....
After the original hubris from Tata which has seen them over-extend themselves, the new managers know how to grab governments by the short and curlies and squeeze hard. With the T-K merger in the offering, Tata would be happy for PT to close so they can play hard ball knowing that they have the politicians in the do-do!! And our politicians squabble and stare at the headlights.
Governments are rubbish at business
The Chinese government seems to be considerably better than anyone we have private or otherwise.
Selling things below cost is rarely good business
The Chinese government seems to be considerably better than anyone we have private or otherwise.
@wilburt - economy originally built on ultra low cost labour, zero welfare inc pensions, rampant corruption, massive real estate bubble, huge financial excess inc excessive lending bank and non-bank 😳
Not so great at deomcracy either
Its actually a very good way of gaining market share and putting your competitors out of business.
@wilburt - economy originally built on ultra low cost labour, zero welfare inc pensions, rampant corruption, massive real estate bubble, huge financial excess inc excessive lending bank and non-bank
Not so great at deomcracy either
Is that China or the UK? 😉
I'm not advocating their methods btw just suggesting goverments are no worse than private groups at turning a profit, operations is operations they can be well or poorly run by both.
Selling things below cost is rarely good business
As a short(ish) term measure to put your competitors out of business, before becoming a monopoly supplier, then hiking your prices, it's incredibly good business.
Just ask Starbucks. Or any of the many many independent coffee shops they put out of business by doing precisely this.
Government is going to offer financial support to any new buyer.
Why is Tata buying a German steelmaker?
Binners you at a hoot. It's hard to tell if you are being serious especially since your constantly attack Jamba for making things up or just have a laugh/taking the piss.
The coffee industry has been one of the mos remarkable growth stories of the past 20 years. Assumed to be mature in 1999, it has been transformed with sales of almost £8bn with 40% from specialists outside the big chains. It's also forecast to double again in size in next 10 years.
The crap UK cup of brown liquid has gone, replaced with almost too much choice and a greater quality. Pubs and restaurants have also had to raise their game.
Most railway stations I use have competition between entrepreneurial specialist and the big chains.
So while some lament the passing of the crap corner Caff, the rest of the world has moved on. Still we could have protected the market and stifled completion and stuck with brown sludge.
That's not the specific aspect of the Starbucks model that binners is referring to...although on a net basis I don't think Starbucks put any coffee shops out of business...in fact quite the opposite
Understood @wilburt
Don't get me started on Starbucks - one giant tax dodge and a horrible product to boot
Tata has a good Ditch business apparently and a poor UK one. A merger of the Dutch business with ThyssenKrupps is believed to be a great match (again apparently) and will also yield econs of scale.
They screw PT in the meantime despite the UK gov bending over backwards to [s]be rogered [/s]help. Take UK capacity out and bob's your uncle the Dutch and German businesses look even stronger.
It's not a mystery to Mr Mistry - they have a cunning plan and by some accounts a 6 week timetable. Rattan Tata over stretched the company, Mistry comes to the rescue (for them at least)
They kick started a coffee revolution rather that killing the market and many entrepreneurs enjoyed the ride. The sad old caff was exposed for what it was - pretty crap.
The UK coffee shop market is dynamic and rapidly growing. The report shows that the UK is becoming a nation of coffee connoisseurs and coffee shop visitors drink an estimated 2.2 billion cups of coffee per year in coffee shops. Costa is the number one seller of speciality coffee with an estimated 169 million cups sold annually and has also, for the sixth year in a row, been voted the nation’s favourite chain by Allegra’s independent panel of consumers.Coffee shops are playing an increasingly important role in the UK, [b]enhancing the social vibrancy of a community and contributing significantly to employment and the economy. The third wave/artisan coffee has raised consumer expectations about coffee quality and store design and the most successful brands are responding to this trend.[/b]
The artisan independent segment is becoming far more regionalised than ever and [b]strong artisan independents are expanding into small chains with the support of consumer funding and traditional investment[/b], following the success of leading small chains such as Taylor St. Baristas and Grind & Co.
What an awful example to us all - bloody capitalists
THM just a shame the two big players in coffee you name shirk paying UK taxes in any meaningful manner
True, but while they don't sell below costs as Binns was implying (GP margins are @50%) their OP margins are diddly squat. So increase the tax bill - fair enough, we all feel rosy about that - and where does it come from? Lower wages, higher prices or lower dividends? You decide....but it doesn't take too much imagination does it?
But fair enough to knock Stabucks but look at the impact on the industry in the UK...in addition to the rapid growth we are also world leaders in supporting Fairtrade coffee. So all-in-all a positive impact with coffee massively outperforming the rest of retail - an almost mirror image of steel.
BTW - you may want to check Costa's tax record, it's claimed to be a reason for gaining mkt share off S'bucks
jambalaya - MemberDon't get me started on Starbucks - one giant tax dodge and a horrible product to boot
I want to agree, then every so often I have a starbucks caramel macchiato and all is forgiven. Embezzle all you like folks.