[Closed] British Roads

You're driving during the school holidays, there is a massive drop in standards during the holidays.

I do a lot of miles a year and generally speaking during the working week most are well behaved and the roads flow better. During the holidays morning traffic is lighter but the roads clog up pretty quickly during the day.

Our roads are a shocking standard but I have seen some improvements, going to take years before all the major routes are up to european standards though.

As for the road surface! Even new British roads are generally crap!

Because the operating companies that look after the roads get away with producing shite time and time again but are better than the agency responsible for the roads when arguing over contract interpretations etc.

Paying for the road use. Compare the M6 Toll to the M6.

Yep. Driving through France and really was a surprising pleasant experience. Come back, out the tunnel and it's dog eat dog with everyone stressed and aggressive, road surfaces a wreck, pot holes everywhere, roadworks everywhere, jams. And this wasn't school holidays.

Same driving in the US on the west coast. Relaxed, wide open roads, stick the car on cruise and chill, or driving through town/city roads everyone seems to crawl along at 20mph and yet it doesn't seem slow at all and quite organised. Junctions are logical. No (or rarely found) roundabouts. Instead of mini-roundabouts with confusion who's going first, the 2/3/4-way stop system works perfectly.

Again, return the UK and I suddenly switch to aggressive defensive mode.

Paying for the road use. Compare the M6 Toll to the M6.

I dont think there is much difference in the quality of the road now that the M6 sections have been resurfaced.

The biggest difference is lack of congestion due to the toll.

It's also a failing business as it's too expensive and people won't pay it generally, i was hoping the government would take it on and make it free but that's unlikely to happen.

The new link road from the M54 on to the toll will help boost business hopefully.

Is it most UK drivers know no better so no incentive

the services that stink of macdonald's/bk are depressing.

still, it's much cheaper for a slash than a German services, even after cashing in the voucher.

Belgium has a road surface (E40 between Brussels and Liege) that makes UK look smoooooth.

First time driving in France this month.

In general, road surfaces are better, especially A roads, but country lanes vary. Lane discipline is much better and the speed limits make driving much more relaxing.

It's the space and lack of congestion that got me though. France is 10 times bigger iirc, and away from big cities, the traffic seemed to be spread out over that extra space.

France is generally very good for driving in - barring the cost of the toll roads. Belgium and Holland are worse than the UK and Germany is similarish.

just drive in Sheffield for a period of time then the roads around the rest of the Uk will seem fantastic.

I pay 80eur each way in tolls from calais to sw France so to be able to have a lunchtime picnic without getting a parking ticket is kind of the least I'd expect!

Local Basque toll motorway between San Sebastian and Bilbao would be known as a twisty A road by British standards.

on the peage ...., road surface was lovely.

Private road in good condition shocker....

It's the space and lack of congestion that got me though. France is 10 times bigger iirc, and away from big cities, the traffic seemed to be spread out over that extra space.

This.

Standards of driving are equally bad in both places.

And yet our fatality rate per 100k inhabitants is just a little over half that of France...

French paege roads are not a fair comparison:
-They are toll roads so have more investment to keep them maintained.
-Much fewer HGVs and lower volume of traffic which helps with lane discipline.

But I agree the state of some roads in the UK is shocking and the services are criminal.

yet our fatality rate per 100k inhabitants is just a little over half that of France.

You're driving during the school holidays, there is a massive drop in standards during the holidays.

It's the holidays over here in Euroland too 😉

France is generally very good for driving in - barring the cost of the toll roads. Belgium and Holland are worse than the UK and Germany is similarish.

The Belgians at least have lane discipline even if they do drive like dicks. Also, the French drive as badly as everyone as soon as they leave their ticketing-prone police behind.

And yet our fatality rate per 100k inhabitants is just a little over half that of France...

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/pdf/vademecum_2015.pdf

I wondered when they might crop up.

Question, If you drive vulnerable road users from the roads, ie bikes, kids, horses, etc. would you expect fatalities to go up or down? So is the "safety" of British roads true or simply because no one who is likely to get killed goes anywhere near them?

Yeah it's the combination of the number of HGVs + unfriendly car drivers not letting people out that means 95% of the time the only thing in lane 1 is an HGV (or white van following one at 2 feet presumably to save petrol money).

I, thankfully, rarely have to go to service stations but I can't say they bother me too much, bland and basic sure but I'm never planning to stay long anyway. A captive audience/limited competition probably means they get away with not having to bother much. The worst thing I find about them is the screaming kids or arguing parents anyway.

The other thing i noted, i saw a few cars that i had seen in France with decent lane discipline go to sh** as soon as they hit the M20!.

Peoples lane dicipline appears to go get a lot worse when there are more than 3 lanes. On quiet roads it does allow a fun game to be played to help pass the time, see how many times you can circle round a lane hogger before they eventually pull into the nearside lane.

Getting crap where we are in rural Hampshire / Dorset , shit potholed roads are pretty much the norm. The contractor does quick fix fills which last no time, I guess so they can keep coming back and getting paid. I think a combination of uncut trees and hedges sticking out and broken up road edges makes everyone cut corners and tend to drive down the middle of the road, leading to many near misses and busted wing mirrors. Made worse by either old people dawdling or nutters driving way too fast on the other extreme. France is great on the other hand.

Driving around Nice is horrendous easily comparable to say around Manchester.

Also plenty of decent UK service stations albeit and some rubbish French ones.

Honestly I don't think there is much difference between the countries apart France being bigger hence traffic density in places is lower.

UK drivers kill a lot more pedestrians too, according to the link.

It doesn't say that at all. It does say that UK pedestrian deaths are a higher percentage of all road deaths than in (frinstance) France.

Do the Maths:

UK pedestrian deaths, 23% of 26 = 5.98 ped deaths per 100k
France ped deaths, 14% of 53 = 7.42 ped deaths per 100k.

So fewer...

Drove back from France yesterday too, 'only' South Picardy this time, but OPs hardly alone, I think everyone who's ever driven the French Autoroutes has though the same thing.

It's not that there's somehow better than us, there's a couple of reasons.

France has a slightly larger population than the UK, but they have nearly 3 times the landmass and roughly 3 times the total length of road, and roughly 4 times the length of motorway.

Plus their population is (Paris aside) generally less centralised, most of the bits of France I've been too remind me of North Wales, typically smallish towns, spaced apart by largish areas of rural areas linked by decent wide, A-roads (or N road I think they are in France).

Their motorway are very expensively tolled meaning that there's an economic incentive to restrict their use to the intercity transport, whereas in the UK they get used as city relief roads. Can't speak for a lot of the UK, but the M4 especially is used a lot to get from one side of a city/town to the other, they were never really designed for that.

Whenever I've found myself on a quiet but of UK motorway (for the life of me I can't remember when that was now) standards are pretty good, you still see the odd middle-land mong driving for mile after mile seemingly half-asleep, but when you're usually stuck in that sort of pattern you can understand why some people do it, even if you can't condone it. When I've had to drive into Paris or faced traffic in France standards fall off a cliff and if anything becomes more aggressive than in the UK, I had 2 people pull into my lane driving to Les Arcs a few weeks ago because they took a dislike to something I was doing (going too fast usually) and yesterday someone sat what looked like about a meter off my back bumper at 110kph because he was firstly a **** and secondly because he though perhaps he could push me and the 3 cars ahead to go a bit quicker past a truck or something.

The biggest difference is lack of congestion due to the toll.

The lack of congestion is due to two things - the Toll and the fact that inexplicably, having just paid the toll everyone then just stops at the services. 🙂

You'd think the motivation to pay would be to save time but it seems like everyone want to hang around make sure they get their money's worth.

I'm aware of the irony that I've witnessed this because I almost always stop at there services too 😆

I don't think you are comparing like with like, the experience around the big French cities e.g. Paris, Nice is just like London, Manchester etc. However, the rural bits are nicer, same way the motorway between Carlisle and south Glasgow is. Thing is as France is much bigger area for roughly the same population, so it has a lot more of the rural bits than the UK does.

American 4 ways are much slower than mini roundabouts. Otherwise all good on the rant

off the motorways the driving standard is highly variable. I hadn't noticed on previous trips but this time my car seemed to have a sign that said "overtake me on blind corners" even though I was travelling (slightly) above the posted speed limit.

On other occasions there were a lot of local drivers in "pootle" mode - doing 40kph in 90kph areas etc.

Worse in the Auvergne than Dordogne.

We've driven from Calais to the Pyrenees and back each year for the last 8 years.

French drivers *tend* to behave themselves on the Peages fairly well but that's a lot to do with enforcement. They all drive far too close though. Driving in Paris on the Perifique is terrifying - entrances and exits far too close together and traffic travelling too fast and too close.

On the rural roads they have a massive MGIF complex and dangerous overtakes are common. They don't seem to think anything of driving pissed.

Generally driving there feels better for the same reason cycling there feels better - it's *usually* less congested because the population density is lower.

France has a slightly larger population than the UK, but they have nearly 3 times the landmass and roughly 3 times the total length of road, and roughly 4 times the length of motorway.

Plus their population is (Paris aside) generally less centralised, most of the bits of France I've been too remind me of North Wales, typically smallish towns, spaced apart by largish areas of rural areas linked by decent wide, A-roads (or N road I think they are in France).

Their motorway are very expensively tolled meaning that there's an economic incentive to restrict their use to the intercity transport, whereas in the UK they get used as city relief roads. Can't speak for a lot of the UK, but the M4 especially is used a lot to get from one side of a city/town to the other, they were never really designed for that.

This, absolutely, plus private ownership of the motorways.

Also the colder weather further north causes more damage to surfaces through freeze-thaw.

its a south east thing. too many people on not enough roads.

I notice it every time I drive up out of the westcountry to visit family.

TheBrick - Member 
American 4 ways are much slower than mini roundabouts. Otherwise all good on the rant

More because they're just generally pootling about there anyway. The rules are nice and clear though. Someone there before you, they have priority. It's only the rare cases of everyone turning up at the same time that cause confusion but even then they seem polite. Mini roundabouts are like a standoff where some will not know who to give way to if there's someone on the right as they have someone on their right too and so on, even if some got there before others, and then some dick comes charging through not giving a crap, so another will edge across then find the exit blocked and all jams up.

And right turn on a red in American is an excellent idea too. There's been suggestions of allowing this just for bikes. I forget where.

Same driving in the US

Hahaha..!

Your holiday on the wide open empty roads in lower populated parts of the US is not representative.

I've just got back from 3.5k miles in the US and I'd take the M4 over the interstates through US cities any day. It's FAR worse there. Comparing the open road in California is not comparable.

Junctions are logical. No (or rarely found) roundabouts. Instead of mini-roundabouts with confusion who's going first, the 2/3/4-way stop system works perfectly.

Hah. The rules for mini roundabouts are better than multi-way stops. You ALWAYS have to stop at a stop, regardless if there's anything coming or how far you can see. Bloody stupid. And instead of roundabouts they put in traffic lights where you have to wait for minutes when you could have just driven straight through. And there's the wasted fuel in stopping and starting all the time on empty roads.

And I've no idea what you are talking about with logical junctions. Most are just crossroads because there's sod all traffic. All the crap we have is because of far higher traffic densities. In the US when traffic volumes increase they stick lights on, which causes delays, and on the highways they just add lanes, and lanes, and lanes, so before long you've got 8 lanes each way with everyone under and overtaking all over the place doing 80mph 3 feet (I'm not exaggerating) from each other and lorries bombing around just as fast (not exaggerating there either). It's insane, you can keep it.

And right turn on a red in American is an excellent idea too

Yes, that is a good idea. However it works well there because most junctions are open and well sighted. When we have those, we get an explicit left turn give way filter aside from the lights. So if that's deployed where appropriate, we're in the same situation. They have fewer filter lanes on their lights. However it makes more sense for bikes here.

It's only the rare cases of everyone turning up at the same time that cause confusion but even then they seem polite. Mini roundabouts are like a standoff

The standoff in mini roundabouts is the exact same conditions as standoffs in multi-way stops: when everyone arrives at the same time. Otherwise, the rules at minis are the simplest - give way to the right - end of. Which means if there's no-one there you don't have to stop, when you DO have to stop at a multi-way stop. Which is infuriating, causes queues and wastes fuel

molgrips - Member 
Hahaha..!
Your holiday on the wide open empty roads in lower populated parts of the US is not representative.
I've just got back from 3.5k miles in the US and I'd take the M4 over the interstates through US cities any day. It's FAR worse there. Comparing the open road in California is not comparable.

Driving through the busiest parts of LA and San Fran, on top of the open roads in the countryside. Salt Lake City(okay empty city really) and Denver also (work hours on a business trip). All fairly much relaxed. Only things to avoid were some of the highways through big cities at peak that can queue up a bit like the M25, but even then if you have more than one person, car pool lanes are awesome.

Otherwise, the rules at minis are the simplest - give way to the right - end of

Yeah, but if one arrives first, they're about to go but then another arrives just after to their right, they stop, someone arrives to the right of the other guy so they stop, you are to the right of that new guy. Result, no one moves. Stop junction, first guy goes, then second, then third.

Other thing with America is if you put your foot down the car makes a lot of noise but doesn't go anywhere. Less aggressive as a result, just the noise of a lot of V8s 😀

France has a slightly larger population than the UK, but they have nearly 3 times the landmass and roughly 3 times the total length of road, and roughly 4 times the length of motorway.

Plus their population is (Paris aside) generally less centralised, most of the bits of France I've been too remind me of North Wales, typically smallish towns, spaced apart by largish areas of rural areas linked by decent wide, A-roads (or N road I think they are in France).

I think this nails it. On most UK motorways the gaps where you're not in a load of city-specific traffic are quite short- you get out of one and then you're pretty sson hitting traffic for the next one. In France it mostly feels like the bigger cities and towns are all much further away from the motorways so you're mostly just seeing proper cross-country traffic.

The toll aspect is a bit of a red herring I think.

The lane discipline in the UK is hopeless. 4 lane motorways turned into 2 lane by poor driving.

In the UK, the Police seem to shut the whole motorway when there is an accident. In France, Holland and Belgium, they try to keep things moving and shove the wrecks to one side and keep at least one lane open. Makes a big difference.

lol, Belgium
They solve the traffic problem by reducing the space between rear of one car and front of the next to almost 0. Saves building more roads or more lanes.

If you want roads that make ours look good go to Belgium to drive round for a bit.

As for the French lane discipline I've always found it to be excellent when there are two lanes but it all goes to shit if you give them a third.

The non-toll roads i used in france this summer were just as shit as uk ones.

Why are British drivers and roads $hit! mile after mile on the peage and lane discipline was fine, road surface was lovely. The hit the UK and drivers stuck in lanes 2 and 3 and on the M25 4 when they could easily have moved over.

Just thinking the level of congestion on British roads and a huge part is simply the crap driving! As for the road surface! Even new British roads are generally crap!

Haven't read thread so not sure if it's been covered, but the volume of people in the UK - especially heavily populated southern England - places a massive strain on the road network. If memory serves, France has four times the space for the same population of England, and the population is far better spread out. That in itself would help keep roads clearer.

Regarding standards, it is easier to drive on less congested roads. People have room to move and are consequently less likely to take stupid risks to 'make progress'.

Driving through the busiest parts of LA and San Fran, on top of the open roads in the countryside. Salt Lake City(okay empty city really) and Denver also (work hours on a business trip)

US cities aren't that busy during the day, it's rush hour that's the problem.

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Re France - they seem to have (or they used to) more insane boy racers doing far more dangerous stuff than you see here.

This has bugged me for years. Its not just France though. Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia. They all have far better condition roads than UK. I used to take the motorbike over to Europe as the roads were so good. Spain, we classed as the biggest race track in the world lol! We would be riding a perfectly good mountain road with hardly any traffic on, glance to the right and you would see a massive bridge being built across the valley! They must cost billions.. I wonder where they get all that money....

It may only be part of the problem+resolution, but I'm a believer that we should be charging for motorway use, as per on the continent. Tolls maybe, but a cheaper method/less infrastructure, would be a Vignette. That way we can get some of our money back from the jolly foreigners 🙂 I mean it costs as much in tolls as it does in fuel to take my car to the Alps. It will also help spread the traffic from motorway to A +minor roads, although TBH the amount of traffic we have on the roads is not going to help too much.

Try driving round Huston. Horrible, if you indicate to change lanes you have no chance

but I'm a believer that we should be charging for motorway use, as per on the continent.

A pay per use system like the French have would be a bit of a disaster, as people would use local roads to avoid motorways and they'd get snarled up even worse. But then again - maybe not, as the actual numbers of cars that'd need to be removed from say the M25 might be easily dispersed elsewhere. Dunno.

But the Vignette for all motorways like in Austria would be effectively a motoring tax, wouldn't it? Not that that's a bad thing mind but might be unpopular.

A pay per use system like the French have would be a bit of a disaster, as people would use local roads to avoid motorways and they'd get snarled up even worse. But then again - maybe not, as the actual numbers of cars that'd need to be removed from say the M25 might be easily dispersed elsewhere. Dunno.

ever heard of predict and provide? if you want to get people out of cars then the solution is to make driving harder. Yes people will scream, but IMO tough.

And as with a vignette, ALL drivers pay rather than some. I don't mind paying to use french and swiss roads i am wearing them out. Why should't continental drivers pay for access to UK roads?

Yes people will scream, but IMO tough.

Yeah but democracy...

US mega lane highways / interstates like above though are surprisingly not that scary when on them. They're split into on ramps, feeder lanes, main lanes and car pool lanes, and the rules are again nice and simple... there are no rules. Pick a lane and sit in it. Change lane in either direction if you need to overtake, and change to exit. Though there are some roads which apply the British system. Usually on big hills to encourage trucks to move to one side.

Problem with Britain is the move to the left rule and the BMW/Audi driver who sits in the middle. We're too polite so sit behind the guy in the middle lane. Undertake and all hell brakes loose.

In America, move to the right or left of him, and no one is bothered about it and there isn't a huge queue generated of people impatiently waiting behind when there's plenty of lanes to fill.

Our system works for fast flowing traffic, but not when it gets slow and congested. That's why road authorities recommend filling out lanes when you get 3 or 2 lanes into 1, but yet many pull to the left and get irate with those in the right and don't let them in. M25 needs a rule that says pick a lane, stay there but feel free to undertake if need be. Particularly when the speed limit is dropped to 50 or under.

US mega lane highways / interstates like above though are surprisingly not that scary when on them.

That's not my experience. Almost everyone, massive HGVs included, is speeding, tailgating and not really concentrating very hard. And the system is the same as the British system - you're meant to keep right in most places, but it's almost completely ignored. There are signs all over the place.

Our system works for fast flowing traffic, but not when it gets slow and congested.

M25 needs a rule that says pick a lane, stay there but feel free to undertake if need be.

Highway code has one.

And as with a vignette, ALL drivers pay rather than some. I don't mind paying to use french and swiss roads i am wearing them out. Why should't continental drivers pay for access to UK roads?

We [s]avoided it[/s] had to while driving on the continent. I don't have a problem as long as you don't have to buy a pass for a year, a la Switzerland.

Saying that, it cost us more to drive down half of Croatia for a day. But the road was totally empty and as smooth as...

Mind you finding the money to pay for better roads, the outcry from the Mail if they even think about tolls.

Wouldn't it be better to simply improve the non-car infrastructure? Rather than upgrading the roads (making them bigger) Trains, bus etc and try get a double digit percentage of motorists off the roads?

If the mind-buggering amount of money being planned for the insane vanity project that is HS2 was diverted and ring-fenced specifically for upgrading and maintenance of roads, then things would improve dramatically

Things? Which things?

If the mind-buggering amount of money being planned for the insane vanity project that is HS2 was diverted and ring-fenced specifically for upgrading and maintenance of roads, then things would improve dramatically, although it would certainly take time.

Do you drive on the M25 much?

What would you spend the billions on to prevent congestion around the M3 and M4 junctions? There are already 4 lanes and it jams up just from pure weight of traffic. Would you suggest building more lanes?

What about the Dartford crossing?

European driving experience is limited to being a passenger from Charles design gaulle into the centre of Paris - something so terrifying we chose to return by train to the airport. Lane discipline? Don't make me laugh. Free for all doesn't even come close.
Extensive experience of the Washington belt way, Baltimore, and parts of pennsylvania suggest that the USA also generally goes with the free for all of terror approach, and while Americans tend to demand a fair degree of luxury in most aspects of daily life, it appears that they would quite happily sh*t in a bucket at the roadside going by the interstate services I had the misfortune to visit

hine - Member
Wouldn't it be better to simply improve the non-car infrastructure? Rather than upgrading the roads (making them bigger) Trains, bus etc and try get a double digit percentage of motorists off the roads?

Yes. half the problem is the "when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail" situation where car seems to be the only choice some people can see for all of their journeys. For some people this is true but for many it is not.

it appears that they would quite happily sh*t in a bucket at the roadside going by the interstate services I had the misfortune to visit

They vary massively across the country. Some are nice, but not many. The concept of 'services' is pretty rare anyway, since there are restaurants clustered around most inhabited exits anyway.

The issue is not enough roads in the UK. Especially motorways. 60 odd years after the motorway building program started and there is still not a motorway all the way between Glasgow and Edinburgh. Still to east coast motorway south from Edinburgh to Newcastle. Etc.

UK 3.5 thousand miles of motorway.

Germany 12.8k miles, France 11.4k miles.

It isn't any better by other measures.

Miles per capita (x1000) UK 54.9 Germany 158 France 171

M of motorway per sq Km UK 14.45 Germany 35.8 France 17.8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_length_of_expressways

Silly decisions are still being made. Within the last 5 years the A80 had roadworks on it for a year or more while being upgraded to motorway.It is the link between the junction of the M80 and the M73 at one end and the M80 and M876 at the other. So 4 lanes of N-S motorway at each end.

The new road was built as 2 lanes each way. Result - as soon as it opened there was peak hour congestion. Building it as dual 3 lane would have cost a bit more but coped with the existing traffic.

UK 3.5 thousand miles of motorway.

Germany 12.8k miles,

Part of that is topgraphical, but also I reckon much of the German Autobahn is comparable with UK dual carriageways, so include those.

Building it as dual 3 lane would have cost a bit more but coped with the existing traffic

Yes but it would have generated more. It's well known that better road infrastructure generates more traffic. Reduce the commute time between two places by improving roads, and more people will make the journey until the commute time is the same.