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Being friends with a terrorist is not the same as being a terrorist, however otherwise morally deplorable falling in with that lot may be.
I'm in no way defending her actions, but English law has concepts like "innocent until proven guilty" and the right to a fair trial requiring evidence. If you want to throw that out just because she's brown and her mates are a bit explody, it's not the "libtards" with the problem here.
To corrupt a phrase that's been popular of late, "why do you hate justice?"
My view (and I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has been covered already) is that the UK Govt should invoke a Court Order for the baby who can be repatriated and fostered in the UK / be raised by family. Mother can make her own way in the world - she has made her metaphorical bed, so to speak...
If we refuse to accept her back and take responsibility for our own citizens, born, bred and educated in this country, then we have no right to expect other countries to repatriate people we are trying to deport.
The rest of the world would be right to think that Britain is an increasingly joke nation who can't be trusted to make good on it's responsibilites.
If you want to throw that out just because she’s brown and her mates are a bit explody, it’s not the “libtards” with the problem here.
Wins best comment on the internet today award.🏆🥇
This is just not one of them issues you virtue signal on for internet points.
But what do you count as virtue signalling? Saying that the UK should follow international laws? She's British, she's our problem, if she comes back then she should be investigated/convicted/punished as appropriate, but we can't just say "not our problem guv"
If nothing else, this issue has really helped me cull some unexpectedly nasty friends on Facebook that got through the last cull of simplistic knuckle draggers.
How did you end up friends with so many ISIS brides?
I watched two of the interviews with her earlier after reading some guff from body language experts. She just seems to be in a state of shock, like her brain has thrown up its defences and rebooted her in safe mode. I hope that, at the very least, her baby is given the appropriate medical care he needs.
UK Govt should invoke a Court Order for the baby who can be repatriated and fostered in the UK / be raised by family. Mother can make her own way in the world
What about her next baby, or the one after that?
She just seems to be in a state of shock
Came over more like entitled to me.
Saying that the UK should follow international laws? She’s British, she’s our problem, if she comes back then she should be investigated/convicted/punished as appropriate, but we can’t just say “not our problem guv”
Yup, she was radicalised in our country, the police were even aware of it at the time
We should really by asking the home secretary of the day wtf this was allowed to happen.
Allowed back on Uk soil but banished to Holy Isle witha nice shiney ankle bracelet in a ironic nod to religon and under populated areas ?
Baby can live with grandparents if they are happy to collect the child benefit cash
if they are happy to collect the child benefit cash
Technically as a third child will it qualify or do the two previous have to have survived?
Technically as a third child will it qualify or do the two previous have to have survived?
Is this a serious question?
Yes the child will qualify. You can only "claim" two children. She's only got the one now.
It’s already been said various times in this thread, but I also agree that she should be allowed to come back. Apart from the fact we shouldn’t make someone stateless, how do we know whether she was groomed or threatened? How do we know whether she is in fear for her life if she says she regrets what she’s did? We need to understand what’s happened, and the baby of course is completely innocent.
So the STW majority says allow the ISIS brides baby to be given to the grandparents to bring up.
Makes sense I guess; they did such a great job of enabling the baby’s mother to develop into well rounded individual didn’t they. Whatever could go wrong ..
Could be worse - they could be given to a bitter, resentful, selfish person
But I thought the STW experts ruled out the ISIS bride being allowed to keep the baby?
I don't see any of the stw experts offering up their spare room for her and a cut of their salary for her upkeep.
Could be worse – they could be given to a bitter, resentful, selfish person
Where is the eye rolling emoji?
I don’t see any of the stw experts offering up their spare room for her and a cut of their salary for her upkeep.
As a tax-payer I don't mind contributing to "her upkeep".
and a cut of their salary for her upkeep.
I'm quite happy to pay the tax necessary for return travel, assessment, the judicial system if deemed necessary, rehabilitaion and whatever help she needs to reintegrate society. The cost will be derisory compared with what Blair spent on starting the wars.
I feer her parents have been measured in their response. Condemning her actions and words but maintaining she should be allowed to come home, what parents would do anything else.
I'd be over in Syria by now getting my daughter and grandchild out myself, or die trying.
I don’t see any of the stw experts offering up their spare room for her and a cut of their salary for her upkeep.
Peoples have argued that she should be entitled to return to this country, to face fair justice for her actions. I fail to see how those arguments can be debunked by my refusal to take her in as a lodger. It's a bit of a silly point to make.
We contribute to the up keep of plenty of people in society who we may find unpleasant.
I feer her parents have been measured in their response. Condemning her actions and words but maintaining she should be allowed to come home, what parents would do anything else.
True - and yes I agree that any parent would want their child to be allowed to return - those two surviving London ISIS torture/beheading gang called the Beatles also have parents campaigning to allow their children to return too.
So maybe I am being a tad cynical - but the parents would have to be a special kind of stupid to be saying anything other than condemning her actions to the media if they are looking to gain support for repatriation .. a tiny bit like how the ISIS bride has kinda changed her perspective on things since she learned that she wasnt get a quick ticket back to the UK.
The baby died at two weeks old in a refugee camp.
Heartbreaking. 🙁
The baby died at two weeks old in a refugee camp.
I'm sure Sajid Javid considers it a price well worth paying for the boost in his political career. Being a spite-filled racist never did his boss any harm.
His actions directly sentenced that baby to death.
That poor girl. She may have made some awful life decisions but that is just very sad news.
No - the child’s mother contributed the most to the innocent child’s position and ultimate death.
It’s typically ignorant to ignore the facts and overlook the decisions the ISIS bride took leading up to this terrible situation.
No – the child’s mother contributed the most to the innocent child’s position and ultimate death.
It’s typically ignorant to ignore the facts and overlook the decisions the ISIS bride took leading up to this terrible situation.
No-one's saying she isn't a massive contributory factor to the outcome; the point made is that Javid, and we collectively, could have done something and did not.
If a child was born to heroin addicts in a squalid flat in some derelict squat, we wouldn't leave it there and then just say it was the choices of the parents that caused its death. We'd intervene. Of course the nature of intervention in a refugee camp in Syria vs a squat in wherever is different but the principle is exactly the same - a 2 week old British citizen has been left to die so Javid can score political points.
Ashamed of my country, again.
+1 theotherjonv
Where has all the compassion gone in this country 😞
So the current home Secretary has blood on his hands over a stance that he knows is likely to be overturned by the courts.
Like theothejonv I'm also ashamed by the actions of this isolationist government.
How you hope to rehabilitate someone after your governments actions have contributed to the death of your child I don't know, but as a country we have to try, otherwise as stated by others how the he'll do we expect other countries to take people we deport back? What a bunch of self serving myopic clowns we have in Westminster...
"The Saj" was in Northfield yesterday, speaking to police officers about knife crime (all in front of the cameras, of course) - while he was there, the Tesco Express a mile away in Frankley was robbed at gun and knife point. Just sayin'.
The ISIS bride chose to leave the U.K. some years ago - she was attracted to the ISIS values promoted in the sadistic murdering videos released online. And followed ISIS for the last 4 years until, like rats, they were flushed out of their last hiding place .. and then she & her murdering husband decide its time to realign themselves with the country they hated just a few months ago.
The U.K. had made a point that when she left they retained no responsibility for her; which included her child born in a foreign country to a foreign father.
If we are to show kindness to those innocents caught up the terrible situation in Syria etc, then because of the scale of the situation which ISIS have a huge hand in creating, then ideal or not, there would need to be a way of prioritising who we help first. And as difficult as it would be; I wouldn’t place those directly responsible for creating the situation anywhere near the top of the list.
There are no easy decisions in a very difficult situation.
I wouldn’t place those directly responsible for creating the situation anywhere near the top of the list.
How exactly did this baby create the situation?
I understand the viewpoint about the mother, even if I disagree with the opinion she should be left there based on the choices she made. But a child, a real, living baby has paid the ultimate price based on choices the mother made, and subsequently choices we made. It's not a theoretical argument, or a stat on paper. A British child died, while we watched.
This whole thing kicked off 3 weeks ago.
Would it of been even possible for her to of returned to the UK in that timescale?
Yes, if we had wanted it.
The ISIS brides baby was an innocent in this terrible situation; the same as the other two baby’s who apparently died at the same time. The point is the ISIS brides baby was not the UKs responsibility because the ISIS bride voluntarily gave up U.K. citizenship when she left.
In an ideal world all the innocents in the terrible situation ISIS have had a big part in creating would be supported and safeguarded from risk, harm etc; but it’s simply not that easy ... there are thousands of innocent baby’s caught up in the situation - where is the best place to start? With the child of ISIS murderers and those directly responsible for making a situation worse, or with a child from parents innocently caught up in the situation?
There are only tough decisions.
the ISIS brides baby was not the UKs responsibility
Your opinion. If I understand right, Javid's decision to strip her of citizenship (and make her stateless) is being challenged in the courts. Irrespective, it's not an academic question. A baby died in part because of political point scoring. We could and should have done the right thing.
A baby died in part because of political point scoring. We could and should have done the right thing.
No again. A baby died because its mother intentionally put it at risk.
This government, as much as disagree and dislike this government, it had as much/little responsibility for the ISIS brides baby as it did the other too babys that died that day.
What do you believe is the right thing?
To have brought the ISIS brides baby to the UK, and to have left the two babys that also died there because their parents didnt have a UK passport too?
Frankly, yes. British citizenship brings with it rights, and we have responsibilities to our citizens. The baby was an innocent British citizen.
Other nations have responsibilities to their citizens in the first instance at least.
Because we can't help everyone, should we help no-one?
If her baby was her number one priority, she had 9 months to sort out her repatriation back to the UK.
Perhaps she risked waiting until it was born in the hope it would strengthen her position?
Not saying that there is anything positive in this situation, but perhaps better decisions by the mother could have done a lot to prevent this situation.
As horrible as the whole situation is, I think the main intention of stripping her of citizenship was (whether rightly or wrongly) making an example of her to serve as a deterrent for other British citizens with similar plans. Unfortunately this poor baby was caught up in the middle of all this mess.
I can grasp the point of the decision if it was made based on the bigger picture - essentially (at the time potentially) losing a few to save more lives, and prevent conflict in the future. However this involves totally ignoring the humanitarian and moral aspects which is very difficult, especially given the loss of the baby - unfortunately there's no easy solution to prevent further hurt & loss to any of the people involved in the present (or future) situation - it's just going to polarise opinion.
theotherjonv
Subscriber
British citizenship brings with it rights, and we have responsibilities to our citizens.
And citizens have responsibilities to adhere to also.
theotherjonv
Subscriber
Other nations have responsibilities to their citizens in the first instance at least.
Because we can’t help everyone, should we help no-one?
In an ideal world of unlimited resources; then I would say yes, we should help everyone regardless of where they were born and what nation they belonged to.
But .. there are limited resources; and tough decisions have to be made ... so you have to prioritise - and make very difficult decisions.
So we come back to the facts that the ISIS bride being the one who had ultimate responsibility, and subsequently is the one who primarily contributed to her innocent child’s position and ultimate death.
I imagine she was advised not to raise her citizenship earlier in the pregnancy as British citizenship would only be conferred to her child when born if she still had hers. She raised it late enough that her child got citizenship before hers was removed.
No – the child’s mother contributed the most to the innocent child’s position and ultimate death.
It’s typically ignorant to ignore the facts and overlook the decisions the ISIS bride took leading up to this terrible situation.
You're embarrassing yourself.
the ISIS bride
Why do you keep calling her this? I presume it's an effort to dehumanise her, so that you can ignore the fact that she's a 19 year old British citizen who has experienced horrors that most of us couldn't imagine, and so that you can be absolved from having to show her any type of compassion or empathy? It's pathetic quite frankly, and devalues everything else you say on the matter. Try using her name, you might come across as a bit more human instead of a small minded bigot.
It's a terribly sad story but no doubt just one of many deaths in that camp this week.
That girl moved to a war zone, married an ISIS fighter and lived in a Caliphate. I don't have a great deal of sympathy for her.
I do feel sorry for the hundreds of innocent people in that camp, displaced by the fighting, which ISIS were at the heart of. She was only there due to the fact her group had been defeated and her husband captured.
My first thoughts when those three legged it to Syria were a) being abused and b) pressure for arranged marriages (the 'long holiday' in Bangladesh during Yr 10 at school) in addition to the usual teenage stuff. I'm sure the context was more complex than just being ideologically groomed on line but we're unlikely ever to find out. It doesn't seem to be playing out quite as Javid had hoped.
Like dazh, I'm pretty shocked by the levels some folk will go to de-humanise her just so that they can proclaim on an internet forum just how completely inhumane they are. It's a strange boast fo'shure
The point is the ISIS brides baby was not the UKs responsibility because the ISIS bride voluntarily gave up U.K. citizenship when she left.
You need to read this, Mooman:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Reduction_of_Statelessness
The British government has made her stateless, she did not do it voluntarily. She falls into the category of "involuntary loss" and the British government failed to observe an important clause
[l]aws for the renunciation of a nationality shall be conditional upon a person's acquisition or possession of another nationality
She doesn't possess another nationality and hasn't made any attempt to aquire one even if eligible.
dazh
Subscriber
the ISIS brideWhy do you keep calling her this? I presume it’s an effort to dehumanise her, so that you can ignore the fact that she’s a 19 year old British citizen who has experienced horrors that most of us couldn’t imagine, and so that you can be absolved from having to show her any type of compassion or empathy? It’s pathetic quite frankly, and devalues everything else you say on the matter. Try using her name, you might come across as a bit more human instead of a small minded bigot.
and here come the Brexit thread loons ...
she’s a 19 year old British citizen who has experienced horrors that most of us couldn’t imagine,
And who is fault is that exactly?...
I feel sorry for the baby, we should have taken it back for sure (I also think we should have taken her back if we legally had to as I've already said), but I do feel it's not the uks responsibility to facilitate her return. If she had managed to get here herself then so be it. As has already been pointed out though, even if she hadn't had her citizenship revoked it's highly likely shed still be there anyway, it's not as if she's able to just jump in a taxi and hotfoot it to the airport for a flight home.
Let's not pretend that the primary reason for the death is anything other than the mother's however. She must have known fine well that popping out kids in a war zone was frankly a stupid thing to do yet she did it regardless, for reasons that certainly didn't have the kids interests in mind.
I'm also pretty sure I read that she had said she wouldn't let the kid return without her. Whether true or not I don't know.
popping out kids
Stay classy
they were talking about this on r4 this morning and the point was made that this is a Islamic Jihadi recruiters dream scenario.... see they don't care about you and they care even less about your children. if you sow the seed :/
she’s a 19 year old British citizen who has experienced horrors that most of us couldn’t imagine
And publicly stated that those horrors "didn't faze me at all"
She must have known fine well that popping out kids in a war zone was frankly a stupid thing to do yet she did it regardless
I know bloody silly girl, she really should have had a chat with the Caliphate's family planning clinic to see what contraceptives were available to her.
and here come the Brexit thread loons
Looks like it already has brought them out.
I for one think that Sajid Javid is a real patriot and is keeping this country safe. This is the kind of action we need. I mean sure, you bring one baby in, next thing you know it brings all it's relatives, sets up terrorist cells, and implements Sharia law. I mean, surely a baby is old enough to account for it's own personal decisions right? PLUS Sajid is not just a patriot, I know for a fact his penis is massive, I mean look at him:
Humongous see! I've gone all weak at the knees.
evil ****
She must have known fine well that popping out kids in a war zone was frankly a stupid thing to do yet she did it regardless
Assuming, of course, that she had much choice in the matter. How far do you reckon "not tonight love, I have a headache" would have got her in that sort of environment?
the point was made that this is a Islamic Jihadi recruiters dream scenario…. see they don’t care about you and they care even less about your children.
Indeed. Exactly what I said a dozen pages back.
Incidentally, on the subject of citizenship,
I thought that citizenship was dependant on where you were born - so a child born in the UK to say Polish parents would be a British citizen. Is that not the case, have I misunderstood? And if it is, why was the child in question still considered British and not Syrian?
Incidentally, on the subject of citizenship,
I thought that citizenship was dependant on where you were born – so a child born in the UK to say Polish parents would be a British citizen. Is that not the case, have I misunderstood? And if it is, why was the child in question still considered British and not Syrian?
I thought that too, but apparently neither the UK nor Syria grant citizenship purely by birth:
https://www.indexmundi.com/syria/citizenship.html
https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/british-citizenship
He would have had Dutch citizenship via his Dad and Uk citizenship via his Mum but in the absence of volunteers willing to deliver him to Holland or the Uk his citizenships were/are a moot point.
Incidentally, on the subject of citizenship,
Yep, as oob says, neither country confers citizenship by dint of your birth within their borders. Interestingly, the last country in the EU (IIRC) to stop doing so was Ireland in '04 - a bit of scaremongering about birth-citizenship-tourism on the back of the Celtic Tiger helped that one along. Although it was packaged up in the amendment to allow UK citizens born in N.I. to also have Irish citizenship if they wanted (again, IIRC).
The child would be British as it was born to a British mother. She had her citizenship revoked after his birth.
It is highly unlikely that the life of the child would have been saved if the Home Secretary had not acted to revoke her citizenship as no action had been initiated to repatriate her. She had not actively sought out repatriation - the whole issue arose when a Times journalist ran into her while doing a piece in the refugee camp.
I don't get why any of these muslims are bleating about this on social media - according to their religion the child was an innocent and so went straight to paradise - which is surely better than a stint down here with the life he would have had?
That's why ISIS and the other fundamental islamist groups have no issue killing children.
being religious and slightly upset over the fact a friend has died is somwhat ok, but also a bit selfish to say they should stay down here with you rather than get a shortcut to paradise.
it all seems a bit hyprocritical - are they saying that they don't really believe in god and heaven ?
It is highly unlikely that the life of the child would have been saved if the Home Secretary had not acted to revoke her citizenship
...and we know this for a fact because the Baby didn't get out of Syria in spite of being a citizen of the Netherlands via his father, and the mother had Dutch citizenship via two routes: As sole carer of the child *and* as the wife of a Dutch National. Plus he was a citizen of the Uk. If citizenship of a European Nation was the route to survival he wouldn't be dead. Citizenship wasn't the problem. The lack of anyone willing to go and fetch him to the UK or Holland was the problem and/or perhaps he wasn't free to leave the camp.
I've yet to be convinced Britain is much worse than other nations on repatriation of Isis volunteers. The UK has taken ~400 back and there are three where we're really dragging our heels: The two surviving "beatles" and Shamima Begum. Are other countries repatriating theirs any faster than us or in greater numbers?
Incidentally, on the subject of citizenship,
I thought that citizenship was dependant on where you were born – so a child born in the UK to say Polish parents would be a British citizen. Is that not the case, have I misunderstood?
Depends. In 1992, at least, the child's citizenship depended on the nationality or settled status of the mother.
Depends. In 1992, at least, the child’s citizenship depended on the nationality or settled status of the mother.
As shown in the link above, in Syria it's the father who counts in the first instance, not the mother.
…and we know this for a fact because the Baby didn’t get out of Syria in spite of being a citizen of the Netherlands via his father, and the mother had Dutch citizenship via two routes: As sole carer of the child *and* as the wife of a Dutch National. If citizenship of a European Nation was the route to survival he wouldn’t be dead. Citizenship wasn’t the problem. The lack of anyone willing to go and fetch him was the problem and/or perhaps he wasn’t free to leave the camp.
Missing several points, I think. First is that the mother did not have Dutch citizenship or Bangladeshi citizenship. She may or may not have been eligible for them, but did not apply for them and hence did not have them.
Second is that as British citizens the mother and child should have been given such help as was feasible. Whether that would have been sufficient to save his/their lives we will never know - the situation was pre-empted by "Power Stance" Javid.
Missing several points, I think. First is that the mother did not have Dutch citizenship or Bangladeshi citizenship. She may or may not have been eligible for them, but did not apply for them and hence did not have them.
I can't cite a source but I'm pretty sure as sole carer you get to travel with your child to Holland. Ie there was nothing to stop them both going to Holland. But does it matter? The Baby was a Dutch and UK citizen. Even if the UK didn't step up to the plate Holland did. So we have a 'control' country who (presumably) behaved perfectly correctly in your opinion and the Baby is still dead. Or did Holland also fail to act appropriately to which leads us to:
the mother and child should have been given such help as was feasible. Whether that would have been sufficient to save his/their lives we will never know
Can you be a bit more specific about what help your suggesting? Should Holland and/or the Uk have used military force to get them out? Or send someone in a Taxi? Or are you just saying that *if* you or I had gone and taken the baby in to Turkey to an airport they should paid for the ticket from Turkey? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to understand what action European countries should be taking to retrieve Isis volunteers and their children so I can judge for myself how practical it is.
I think people have made this a complicated issue.
The answer is simple really they have lost the war so they must accept all terms dictate to them regardless.
As for this young lady be thankful at least she is still alive while many other innocence people parished when they imposed their ideology on others.
They reap what they sow.
I just want to understand what action European countries should be taking to retrieve Isis volunteers and their children so I can judge for myself how practical it is.
We aren't in a position to say, I think. The journo found her, so maybe (speculating) she could have been smuggled out in a car and across the Turkish border. But even if that had been feasible, what would have been the point if she had pitched up at the Embassy just to be told that Big Saj had locked the door? We (via our representative) abrogated our responsibilities; we can't fully absolve ourselves from what followed.
We (via our representative) abrogated our responsibilities; we can’t fully absolve ourselves from what followed.
I think we can, because we have a control country: Holland. We can say with certainty that a European Country behaving correctly WRT to its citizens couldn't save the baby.
So whatever the UK has got wrong, it didn't lead to the baby's death.
I'd say that lets us totally off the hook in terms of culpability for the death of the baby.
(...and you can't suggest anything that would have helped, anyway.)
They reap what they sow
Bye bye civilization...
This all works out perfectly for Javid
as you can see by many of the comments on social media, an element of the country are actively celebrating the death of this baby,
so Javid has cemented his claim nicely in the forthcoming leadership elections.
I’d say that lets us totally off the hook in terms of culpability for the death of the baby.
Well if that's enough for you to feel good about yourself, go for it!
Or send someone in a Taxi?
If it had been a family member of mine that's exactly what I'd have done. Turn up in a taxi, pockets full of cash for bribes there's a good chance you'd have got the baby out at least.