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Or one of the most brainwashed people there given she went despite the media coverage on the reality of the situation
That's not brainwashing. That's hearing both arguments and coming to a conclusion with all the data.
To put this woman in the same category of victim as those kidnapped by ISIS from their own homes and forced into sex slavery is a mockery. Ditto those comparing her to victims of paedo gangs in the UK. She knew fine well what she was getting into, she went because it appealled to her and her beliefs. She wasn't forced into marriage - she went there to get married to a like minded person and raise a family under laws she couldn't have in the UK. Don't know what it is about some people, totally incapable of seeing women as anything other than victims. It's sexism, which is ironic considering these same people throw that term about left right and centre to everyone else yet partake in it at the most fundamental level.
Not if she was brainwashed to ignore or distrust the media coverage that was available to her, you know like fake media bs
Javid already knew what to do. He's just decided mob rule is the way forward.
https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1098139734176686080
Between this, reading the comments underneath the news stories on FB & Twitter & Brexit the level of hatred & stupidity in this country right now sickens me to my core.
he knew fine well what she was getting into, she went because it appealled to her and her beliefs
She was 15 years old. That is very young.
The Police knew she was being groomed but they didn't inform her parents. Instead they gave her a letter to give to them.
The best way to judge the civility of a country is to look at how it treats its criminals. She is our problem, we can't just ignore her and hope someone else deals with it her and that suddenly we are all safer. We should bring her back, look after her (innocent) child and deal with her appropriately here in her own country.
@Rene59 - was her husband a pedophile? Because a 30 yr old marrying a 15 yr old suggests he was. That makes her a victim.
I'm assuming that at 15 years old she was not prepubescent, so no her husband wasn't a paedophile.
I’m assuming that at 15 years old she was not prepubescent, so no her husband wasn’t a paedophile.
The age of consent is 15 in Syria. People can make of that what they will in regard to this situation.
Radicalized she could become an extremely powerful weapon against the poison spread by ISIS. Removed of her citizenship we'll have no idea where she is or what ideology she is spreading around the world.
The Tories must be loving all this.
The Saj gets to appear all hardline and appealing to the rightwing press and gammons (even if it subsequently gets overturned in a Supreme Court as being against international law, they'll get to say "ah we tried our best but it's that pesky Human Rights Act")
And it's a useful diversion to the Brexit car crash.
And on the plus side, it also shows up in public how appalingly useless many of our politicians are yet again as they sit there on TV saying "funny tinged people" and arguing against international law. All they're doing is playing even more openly to the populist vote.
One of the things that's become abundantly clear to me from reading these ten pages is how little we actually know about the details of this case. There's two very different narratives going on here.
One which says she watched a couple of videos on the Internet, thought "that's for me," hopped on a plane to Syria, fell in with ISIS, married a terrorist, turned into a baby factory for new recruits, took part in many atrocities, shows absolutely no remorse for the part she's played and now suddenly is desperately trying to come home so she can have a big cuddle from her mum and a free council house.
The other states that she was groomed and brainwashed, persuaded to go over there against her better judgement whilst still a minor, was then taken advantage of, suffered multiple horrors including the almost immediate death of her two babies (which is suspicious in itself, maybe they weren't male enough?), happened to make a remark about wanting to come home to a passing journalist, and is too scared for the life of herself and her new-born to speak out, and is now trapped in an ISIS cell with an innocent new-born.
I don't know which of these is closer to the truth. Do you? If you don't, maybe it might be prudent to think twice before reaching for a keyboard to proudly declare that you think she should be either shot in cold blood or brought home for counselling and cakes.
One of the things that’s become abundantly clear to me from reading these ten pages is how little we actually know about the details of this case.
There's a little bit more here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharmeena_Begum
...but yeah, you'd have to be a mind reader to know what she really thinks now and what she thought at various stages in the past.
That shouldn't be a barrier to internet conjecture.
If you don’t, maybe it might be prudent to think twice before reaching for a keyboard to proudly declare that you think she should be either shot in cold blood or brought home for counselling and cakes.
^ if we all lived by this last paragraph rules this forum/website would be very quiet...that might even be a good thing!!
The Saj gets to appear all hardline and appealing to the rightwing press and gammons (even if it subsequently gets overturned in a Supreme Court as being against international law, they’ll get to say “ah we tried our best but it’s that pesky Human Rights Act”)
TBH, that was my first thought when I read the article I posted. It's a great publicity stunt for Javid given the sheer volume of gammony comment on the Internet, and it's a win-win situation for the government.
I expect that one of two things will now happen: either she'll quietly disappear as the story goes cold and we've conveniently washed our hands of the situation; or it'll blow up into a big brouhaha where she ends up back here before the beak, the Tories can go "well, we tried to block her from returning" and the Express will be ankle-deep in spooge over the free anti-EU propaganda we've just handed to them.
OOB
That’s quite a sad tale in the link you posted;
Begum's mother was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer in 2013 and told she had only six months left to live. She kept this secret from her daughter for as long as possible.[3] Begum is believed to have been grieving the death of her 33-year-old mother in January 2014 of cancer and was targeted by islamic preachers and online extremists who had taken advantage of her fragile state.[4][5]
I’m assuming that at 15 years old she was not prepubescent, so no her husband wasn’t a paedophile.
So you are saying that someone is only a paedophile if their victim is pre-pubescent? Wow.
That’s quite a sad tale in the link you posted;
The whole thing's tragic. It would have been a whole lot better if she'd stayed in the UK herself and (especially) hadn't introduced her friends to the Islamic Forum of Europe. (Assuming Omar Wahid's report is correct.)
So you are saying that someone is only a paedophile if their victim is pre-pubescent? Wow
I'd hope he is. I'd hope you and I would too.
Here's a clue: "[b]Pedophilia[/b] (alternatively spelt paedophilia) is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children."
So you are saying that someone is only a paedophile if their victim is pre-pubescent? Wow.
I'm fairly certain that's the definition of paedophilia yes. I think you are confusing paedophilia with hebephilia and/or ephebophilia.
Anything else you want me to look up for you while I'm here?
OOB, that article is about another girl of the same name, not the girl currently in the news.
Its still tragic but is another child.
so wait those muslim grooming gangs werent paedos?
someone better tell Tommy!
There’s a little bit more here:
Ah, cheers.
So it would appear that she might well have been indoctrinated, but there's contradictory reports even there.
The more I read about this case, the more I think the right thing to do would be to extradite her for questioning and potentially to face charges. I initially thought this anyway - that's how our legal system works, as evidenced by the Secret Barrister tweet above - but added to that there's possibly a lot to be gained from interviewing her. We could find out exactly how she came to be in the situation which might help us to prevent it from happening again, and she could have valuable terrorism intel.
Not that that's likely to happen, of course. Aside from the fact we've just thrown her to the lions anyway, she'll be in a shallow grave before anyone would be able to get near her for reasons as per my previous paragraph. I can't imagine ISIS would allow her to fall into our hands any time soon.
Sorry all, the link is another girl with the same name from the same school who went a bit earlier, this is the current one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amira_Abase,_Shamima_Begum_and_Kadiza_Sultana
OOB, that article is about another girl of the same name, not the girl currently in the news.
Wow, you're right, how did I miss that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amira_Abase,_Shamima_Begum_and_Kadiza_Sultana
When questioned about the rape, enslavement and murder of Yazidi women she claimed: "Shia do the same in Iraq".
It's just pure whataboutery. It's doesn't make it right, and you don't have travel across the world to get involved yourself.
In the interview she didn't look non apologetic - she looked like a teenager being interviewed by a hardened reporter with a point of view to push. She didn't have the backup of PR manager to tell her the line to take so instead she went with what she honestly felt. It's not difficult to see her as someone who was radicalized and out of their depth as a 15 year old as grown adults buy that stuff
she went with what she honestly felt.
Indeed. That's the concern.
Then there is the child, which is also British. It has effectively been sentenced too.
The child is Dutch as well as British,
"A person born on or after 1 January 1985 to a Dutch father or mother (afstamming) is automatically a Dutch national at birth (van rechtswege). It is irrelevant where the child is born."
The child is Dutch,
Does that conceivably mean that the child is dual-nationality, Dutch and British? (EDIT: I typed that before your edit..!)
I'll be honest, I don't really understand how this citizenship thing works. A child of Bangladeshi parents born in the UK is a British citizen. But a child of a British citizen (and a Dutch one) born in Syria is... also a British citizen? I'm clearly misunderstanding something but I don't really follow the logic.
The best way to judge the civility of a country is to look at how it treats its criminals. She is our problem, we can’t just ignore her and hope someone else deals with it her and that suddenly we are all safer. We should bring her back, look after her (innocent) child and deal with her appropriately here in her own country.
That's my feeling. Whether she is a victim or a villain or (almost inevitably) somewhere in-between, this is the UK's mess to sort out and avoiding it due to a technicality is pathetic.
IANAL, but yes, the child will qualify for dual citizenship unless Begums (British) citizenship was withdrawn before it was born. Basically under Dutch and British law, citizenship is passed down by the parents. I assume that one (or both) of Begums parents have been granted British citizenship or qualified for settled status before she was born.
outofbreath
Member
she went with what she honestly felt.Indeed. That’s the concern.
Tbh the fear of 19 year old and her new born baby is more of a concern.
A nation of shitebags and cretins! 😆
If you don’t, maybe it might be prudent to think twice before reaching for a keyboard to proudly declare that you think she should be either shot in cold blood or brought home for counselling and cakes.
I don't know much about it but one thing I do know is that brought back and deradicalised, she has great potential to travel round schools where girls (and boys) are at risk of radicalisation and telling her story. 2 dead kids and heads in bins in the glorious caliphate or medical care and no beheadings, not even for jumping a red light on bicycle or wearing socks with sandals, in the evil west.
She was groomed at 15, the police were aware, the school was aware but nobody told the parents and first they knew was when she had left
Pull the other one! Her dad was taking her to extremist demonstrations attended by the likes of Lee Rigby's killer from the age of thirteen.
Will grooming now become a get out of jail free card for all Islamists "I can't be held responsible for bombing a music concert in Manchester cos I was groomed when I was 15"
Will grooming now become a get out of jail free card for all Islamists “I can’t be held responsible for bombing a music concert in Manchester cos I was groomed when I was 15”
Some leap to blame this daft lassie for the Manchester bombing.
So she was groomed from the age of thirteen, it just gets sadder and sadder.
Having just read one of the previous links it seems you have confused the girls and ignored the fact that the father was repentant and ashamed of attending the demo. I presume you’re just a gobshite
Her dad was taking her to extremist demonstrations
Got a source for that, please?
Will grooming now become a get out of jail free card for all Islamists
All of them?
https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/shamima-begum-isis-bride
The above is an interesting article from the journalist who originally found her.
She should be **** shot.
C'mon if we're going to go to the effort of bringing back capital punishment for a 19 year old mother who was radicalised as a minor and not actually been charged with any crimes, at least show some bloody imagination.
I mean crucifixion has a certain irony to it - maybe we could do it in front of a Mosque?
On the other hand she's female and follows an ideology we disagree with so that probably makes her a witch, so there's your standard burning at the stake or drowning in a lake.
Then again others have called her a traitor so that would probably call for being hung, drawn and quartered. Seems only fair after joining medieval death cult that a suitable medieval punishment is used.
Maybe we could put it to a public vote?
richmtb
Subscriber
😆
Yes a public vote.........what could go wrong with that!
Javid knows that a child bride groomed at 15 & her 2 day old baby aren’t a threat to national security
I'd agree about the kid, but I'm not sure you can say that about a radicalized 19 year old. Just because she isn't blowing herself up doesn't mean she isn't a potential risk
The above is an interesting article from the journalist who originally found her.
Looks like Anthony Loyd really did her a disservice in his original article, he really stitched her up. Doesn't change my opinion. (Isis are bad & she's an Isis volunteer, but we have a legal and moral obligation to take 'our' ones back if Syria doesn't want to put them on trial, which they don't.)
...anyone know what the Husband did to end up in an Isis prison and what evidence there is that that is true?
Just because she isn’t blowing herself up doesn’t mean she isn’t a potential risk
Agree, I suspect she's little risk in terms of directly gonna commit a terrorist act. Isis's atrocities were to lure the west into a massive battle at Dabiq. Not much point in that now the Caliphate has ended so why would she want to?
But just because she's not an immediate threat doesn't mean she's a nice person or someone who's son you'd want in primary school with your kids. We're not talking slight casual homophobia here, we're talking about actually wanting gay people dead. (If you don't like that example pick Jews/Christian/Atheists or anything else from the Isis philosophy of murder and hate.)
So yeah, legally and morally we have to take UK Isis members if Syria/Iraq don't want to put them on trial, but let's no pretend our country will be better for it.
If this specific family choose to go to Holland/Bangladesh/Timbuktu in preference to the UK, Britain will be slightly better for it and Holland/Bangladesh/Timbuktu will be slightly worse.
But just because she’s not an immediate threat doesn’t mean she’s a nice person or someone who’s son you’d want in primary school with your kids. We’re not talking slight casual homophobia here, we’re talking about actually wanting gay people dead. (If you don’t like that example pick Jews/Christian/Atheists or anything else from the Isis philosophy of murder and hate.)
im not sure I want my kids in school with the kids of people who want people executed without trial because they read something in the Sun, tbh
im not sure I want my kids in school with the kids of people who want people executed without trial because they read something in the Sun, tbh
To me that's the same thing. So why do you think your kids *will* benefit from going to school with the kids of people who want people executed without trial because they're gay? Or are you arguing that Isis give gay people fair trials before lobbing them of buildings so it's ok. (I doubt they do). Or is it that Sun readers are just mouthing off and rarely do actually kill people without trial and you feel Sun reader aren't really committed to murder and Isis are?
If you accept some murders without trial are bad, why not all of them? Including Isis?
actually thats not true
Id like to think that my kids could help their kids not become as biggoted as their parents, Id hope the school instills those values too.
education is the best way to tackle it
That GQ article is really good. Puts a few things into perspective. Thanks for the link.
After you get past all the hysterical internet grandstanding there are only a couple of questions that need answering if we think this girl is a threat
1. Is it better to have a known threat under your control or free somewhere else?
2. What happens if other countries remove citizenship from any terrorists we have in this country?
Id like to think that my kids could help their kids not become as biggoted as their parents, Id hope the school instills those values too.
They'll meet somewhere in the middle. Your kids will take on *some* of the Isis Homophobia/Attitude to women etc in response to their kids bad example, and the Isis kids will tone down their's a bit in response to your kids good example.
Unless you're unlucky and one of your kids really buys into the whole Isis thing like the two kids the other Shamima Begum won over who are now dead.
But yean, on average things will be slightly less tolerant.
The Secret Barrister has got this spot on in my opinion on Twitter...
https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1098233995819655168
https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1098234586260230145
That GQ article is really good. Puts a few things into perspective. Thanks for the link.
Your welcome. With anything that is massively emotive like this I think you've got to remove as much emotion as possible, rather than jumping on popular opinion bandwagons.
If she can get home she should, then she should be fully investigated, if she has committed crimes she should stand trial & be punished accordingly. Hopefully she can also be normalized & re-integrated into society.
They’ll meet somewhere in the middle. Your kids will take on *some* of the Isis Homophobia/Attitude to women etc in response to their kids bad example, and the Isis kids will tone down their’s a bit in response to your kids good example.
Unless you’re unlucky and one of your kids really buys into the whole Isis thing like the two kids the other Shamima Begum won over who are now dead.
But yean, on average things will be slightly less tolerant.
yreah its absolutely likely that my kids would become members of ISIS ?!?, do you realise how silly you sound?
Was about to post that. I absolutely agree with her (The Secret Barrister), that take is spot on.
All these white knights absolutely dying for a ride on her. Shes spoken for you ballbags, and hes a genocidal psychopathic butcher.
Slow your roll homies.. you dont want none of that!
All these white knights absolutely dying for a ride on her. Shes spoken for you ballbags, and hes a genocidal psychopathic butcher.
Slow your roll homies.. you dont want none of that!
There appears to be a superfluous "r" and a missing "c" from your username.
They’ll meet somewhere in the middle. Your kids will take on *some* of the Isis Homophobia/Attitude to women etc in response to their kids bad example, and the Isis kids will tone down their’s a bit in response to your kids good example.
Unless you’re unlucky and one of your kids really buys into the whole Isis thing like the two kids the other Shamima Begum won over who are now dead.
But yean, on average things will be slightly less tolerant.
yreah its absolutely likely that my kids would become members of ISIS ?!?, do you realise how silly you sound?
So grooming doesn't work in terms of Isis recruitment, in fact it's silly to suggest it would. A lot of people agree with you.
All these white knights absolutely dying for a ride on her. Shes spoken for you ballbags, and hes a genocidal psychopathic butcher.
Slow your roll homies.. you dont want none of that!
Can anyone translate this to English please?
The only thing I’ve taken out of 12 pages is that I like the word deradicalised.
We have to face the fact that we are allied with America, the biggest death economy in history but
Hands up who would be happy to have their kids sitting next to her at an Ariana Grande concert..
I am not in any way agreeing with the sentiment that
"she should be **** shot" but a question for those who are saying that the full British judicial process should be followed. Should that apply to those who ordered the targeting ,bombing and execution of the "Beatles" and other Brits who joined ISIS and were dispatched without a trial? Innocent until proven guilty and all that?
Poor John.. he was groomed from a young age. He thought he was doing a good thing!
Unpalatable as it is to think of her back on uk soil it's deeply naive to think that banishment is the solution to our terrorist risks she'd just be a danger from slightly further afield. There is no shortage of vulnerable disaffected kids waiting to be radicalized and her story simply fuels this.
And anyone who thinks their kid is at risk of radicalisation by association needs to understand that radicalisation relies on vulnerability, so the solution is to make sure your kids are resilient.
Bangladeshis to home sec, she's your problem bro!
Poor John.. he was groomed from a young age. He thought he was doing a good thing!
No. Jihadi John was killed in a military operation in what I would say was a war time action within a war zone. I know we had not officially declared was which does bring drone strikes into a grey area, however US and UK governments made a decision based on what they deemed reliable intelligence. His death probably saved other lives. I do think that ordinary rules do not apply in the heat of battle so to speak.
If he had surrendered or was captured or discovered in a refugee camp he would have been removed from a war zone and been entitled to the same rights as Begum.
Bangladesh said no too. "But she'll be stateless!!" The bleeding hearts scream. She can stay with Islamic state. That's where she wanted to be. That's where she should stay.
Bangladesh said no too. “But she’ll be stateless!!” The bleeding hearts scream. She can stay with Islamic state. That’s where she wanted to be. That’s where she should stay.
Islamic state isn't a state. She is in Syria and I fail to see why she should be Syria's problem. We are in contravention of the 1961 Convention to reduce statelessness.
I can imagine people rolling their eyes when basic human rights are mentioned.
I think the failure to face up and deal with a problem in the UK that festered and grew in the UK is cowardly.
The folk wishing to strip people of UK citizenship and boot them out of the country back where they came for even the most minor infringement of the law cant have it both ways.
Jihadi john its believed, was killed in an ilegal drone strike on foreign soil athy.. you cant have your cake and eat it.
Jihadi john its believed, was killed in an ilegal drone strike on foreign soil athy.. you cant have your cake and eat it.
What are you even trying to say?
Jihadi john its believed, was killed in an ilegal drone strike on foreign soil athy.
I did say that. You must have missed it.
No. You said it was a grey area and told us your opinion. I told you the facts.
You dont know what you want.. apart from a go on Begum.
I told you the facts.
I mean, I dunno, but I'm not sure you and facts are the best of bedfellows.
Too late for "John", but Kotey and Elsheikh *could* come back to the UK to be de-radicalised and tour schools to tell kids how bad Isis is:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43601925
deadlydarcy
What are you even trying to say?
Not very much...
dirk_pumpa
Member
Thats enough trolling for today.. night night internet 👋Posted 21 hours ago
Ah, sorry I'd missed that. My bad for even trying to engage.
You dont know what you want.. apart from a go on Begum.
Is that shocking and comment as good as you have got?
The illegality of operations such as drone strikes on Jihadi John on foreign soil is an issue separate from a citizens right to a fair trial and innocent until proven guilty.
The situation described above is closer but not identical to that faced by authorities when encountering the Westminster Bridge attacker. It should be possible in certain situations to shoot to kill without a need to capture and charge someone when a serious and imminent threat is being made to endanger innocent lives. This is where the scenarios are similar.
They differ with regard to the fact that UK military is over reaching its jurisdiction hence the illegality of drone strikes and a separate debate.
If Jihadi John was to be captured or the Westminster Bridge attacker captured then they should have the right to a fair trial. There is no conflict in this regard.
Good programme on R4 earlier, with actual experts, including anti-terror officer who went after the girls when they 1st left.
Funnily enough nobody suggested that the bleeding hearts wanted to 'have a go on her'
- So debate not up to stw standards,but still worth a listen
“But she’ll be stateless!!” The bleeding hearts scream.
“But she’ll be stateless!!” International law screams.
<mod>
@dirk_pumpa you're skating -very- close to having some time off the forum. Play nicely.
</mod>
I think if they reviewed athys case theyd probably come to the same conclusion.
The british government's attitude over this confuses me*. At a time when I am repeatedly reminded in my job that 15yr olds who are becoming embroiled in gang activity involving drugs and firearms in our own country are victims of criminal exploitation and shouldn't be vilified and criminalised (and yes that is pretty much the policy at ground level), they are trying to strip this young woman of her British citizenship and refuse her entry to the country that she previously called home. Of course, her actions were abhorrent but what she did, she did when she was a child and we shouldn't underestimate how sophisticated IS tactics will be in influencing young minds (in the same way a child is groomed by an online paedophile or a gang who direct a 15yr old to be involved in serious criminality) . She was influenced by people while living in the UK and to deny her access to return home (and if circumstances suffice to stand trial) is appalling frankly.
*not really. I'm not naive enough to not realise that this is a cynical tactic to exploit the public hysteria and gain some much needed public support from the right.